The Martial Arts Thread

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
OK, I just "met" a guy who believes your back is less important to protect than the front. Because your back has strong muscles and can take more punishment. He believes that this is why our hands bend in a way that allows them to protect the front better.

It's a martial arts youtuber, BTW. And obviously he knows his stuff: I agree with him more than I agree with other guys.

Let me repeat: I quite liked the clip. It's a rather good explanation of the 9 gates (and the preferable defences - though I think he underestimates interceptions...and told him that as well). I just disagree with his assessment of targets that aren't allowed under most/any combat sport rulesets.

Anyway, the following exchange of ideas followed.

Me: "So a punch in the kidneys - which are on your back - isn't going to do as much damage as a punch in the diaphragm? Your call, but I'd prefer a strike in the diaphragm. It's less likely to piss blood afterwards.

Personally, I feel that the reason we don't use hands to protect our backs is much simpler. In other words, our hands don't really bend that way."

MA Youtuber: "Any blow hard enough to the body cavity where there’s less bond and muscle can definitely drop somebody if there not ready for it. Kidney punches are illegal in boxing abc some mma circuits.

The liver is connected directly to our respiratory systems and is easier to get to. Human arms were meant to reach behind our backs to protect. We are bipedal organisms and we were designed to be protected from behind with our back muscles and bones. Even the skull from behind is relatively durable .

All humans vitals are in front of us, eyes, throat, diagram, groin, knees, etc. But again most fights don’t end in one blow to our body’s legs, toros area. What I call the bio computer which is our see, breathe and think systems are all in close proximity of one another."

Me: "Wait, are we talking about "structural integrity" or "which are the most damaging & legal (under what ruleset?) options"? Since you had mentioned the consequences of a groin kick (in the video), I'd assumed you weren't talking about MMA...(even though the clip is "defenses for MMA").
But even in some MMA rules kidney strikes are allowed (though underutilized).
And no ruleset that I know of allows (intentional) strikes to the back of the head or the spine. Reason: those can lead to death or lifelong crippling injuries. That's why "rabbit punches" are INfamous and considered dirty: you're not supposed to by trying to kill an opponent in a sporting contest.
Yeah, I definitely would prefer to get punched in a the diaphragm or face a couple times over taking strikes to the base of the skull, back of neck, spine or kidneys. The odds of dying are simply less!
The liver, sorry, doesn't count. It's on the side of the body, you can access it from behind of from the front (and I've seen a "liver hunter" who managed to hook the liver while being at the left side of the opponent). But the opponent has a harder time preventing you from liver hunting if you're behind.

Also: I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the human animal.
We are bipedal organisms meant, like almost all organisms on Earth (amebas and such possible excluded) to fight by facing the opposition - like a gun turret). That's why getting behind the opponent is a huge advantage - and that's why it's one of the goals of most wrestling, as well as ba gua zhang. On top of having targets that are at least as valuable, the opponent has a hard time counter-attacking...so you can safely "put your heart and soul into the strike" :smile: .
Evolutionary speaking we're meant to protect from this by having friends who protect our backs. The second option is simply by outrunning the attacking predator (human or otherwise): usually animals don't face the other direction unless they've chosen "flight".
But that's the difference: fighting with said friends (to establish "pecking order", say), you'd punch in the faces. Fighting against another, hostile group...well, anything goes. Including attacks from the back and weapons. Case in point: commando raids. But same commandos don't do that to their friends in a bar brawl, do they?
You can see that in nature and life as well, among animals, and other species. You'd hunt or slaughter dangerous animals from behind, or failing that, from the side. Too, a wolfpack, or a hunting lioness, would be trying to get to you from behind - in order to get a free shot at you without retaliation. The rules are similar for most living organisms.
At the same time, if they're fighting the same species, and it's a mating fight (which doesn't need end in death), they'd usually avoid going to the back and attacking the spine. Same thing with animals that have horns: they bash their skulls to show dominance, but try to disembowel you and me. Because we're from a different species and different rules apply."

Was there supposed to a be clip of his video Asen?

Without much context to go on, I don' know. I think the bigger issue is its really hard to protect your back, but it is also really hard for people to strike your back when you are facing them. That said, kidney shots, like you point out, are pretty painful. Yes a liver shot is horrible (no argument there). After years of doing full contact martial arts (from taekwondo to muay thai to boxing), I can't say I've had too many injuries to my back. My worst injury was a rib injury, which I suppose was more on the side (I guess it might be considered the front depending on how you are dividing things). That probably could have happened anywhere along the ribcage. All my worst injuries were probably taken from the front but then most full contact striking martial arts you are facing one another. And if I had a choice between being slammed face down or face up, probably would go with face up. I do feel like there are probably more vulnerabilities in the front, but that might just be from not getting attacked all that much from behind. The only part of my back I've really been that conscious of in exchanges is my kidneys.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Was there supposed to a be clip of his video Asen?

Without much context to go on, I don' know. I think the bigger issue is its really hard to protect your back, but it is also really hard for people to strike your back when you are facing them. That said, kidney shots, like you point out, are pretty painful. Yes a liver shot is horrible (no argument there). After years of doing full contact martial arts (from taekwondo to muay thai to boxing), I can't say I've had too many injuries to my back. My worst injury was a rib injury, which I suppose was more on the side (I guess it might be considered the front depending on how you are dividing things). That probably could have happened anywhere along the ribcage. All my worst injuries were probably taken from the front but then most full contact striking martial arts you are facing one another. And if I had a choice between being slammed face down or face up, probably would go with face up. I do feel like there are probably more vulnerabilities in the front, but that might just be from not getting attacked all that much from behind. The only part of my back I've really been that conscious of in exchanges is my kidneys.
Nope, not supposed to, since I'm critiquing his opinion here. I don't want to give him bad PR, it's actually a rather decent video...other than this small nitpick. But I'm on an RPG forum, what better place to nitpick:tongue:?

Liver shots are actually delivered from the side. You can be in the front or in the back, makes little difference. So they don't help either of us.

Now, with all due respect, Brendan: the fact that you haven't taken many shots in the back has much more to do with the fact that you've been playing with rules. Some of those rules actually forbid striking the back.
Thus, no, your opponents didn't have many reasons to ever try and get to your back. As opposed to wrestlers and MMAers, who consider it a very good position for both clinch and ground...but they actually get points for it, and are allowed to grab from behind - and it can lead to high-amplitude throws and pins.
They're not allowed to strike from behind, though (or at all).
Conversely, about the only way to use it in a striking-only sport is to hit the sides of the body and head, to give a low kick to the back of the thigh - which I believe is legal - or to wait for the moment when the opponent is turning for a "free shot" in a legal area of the body or head.
So, while some strikers have been using such a move - Carpentier is one example - most trainers consider it a waste of time and effort. And what isn't trained isn't often used, right?

Why? Same reason groin, neck and eye shots are forbidden: too much risk of injury, including permanent injury. I think Voros Voros would have a few words for anyone who believes a rabbit punch is safer than a shot to the jaw...:grin:
(Hint: The back of the head is the most exposed area to the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system. Rabbit punches often give concussions and can cause permanent brain damage. Striking the back of the head/neck can dislocate the vertebra leading to the base of the skull, resulting in death or paralisys. In short, there's a reason why the "united MMA rules" allow strikes to the kidneys, but forbid strikes to the back of the head and neck).

And I'd like to point out that the spine isn't protected from the back, especially against focused strikes - like elbows and knees. Let that sink in, then consider what an elbow or knee to the spine could do - especially while pulling the body in the opposite direction! Crushed vertebrae is no joke, and while I like, for example, bare-knuckle boxing, kard chuek and Lethwei (one of these allows headbutts and neither uses much gloves), I draw the line of combat sports at "intentionally damaging the spinal cord, brain and internal organs"...
So no, I'm not in favour of allowing it, make no mistake! I just want people not to forget how dangerous such targets are. Or else they could deliver such strikes by accident, or thinking it's "no big deal".
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Nope, not supposed to, since I'm critiquing his opinion here. I don't want to give him bad PR, it's actually a rather decent video...other than this small nitpick. But I'm on an RPG forum, what better place to nitpick:tongue:?

Liver shots are actually delivered from the side. You can be in the front or in the back, makes little difference. So they don't help either of us.

Now, with all due respect, Brendan: the fact that you haven't taken many shots in the back has much more to do with the fact that you've been playing with rules. Some of those rules actually forbid striking the back.
Thus, no, your opponents didn't have many reasons to ever try and get to your back. As opposed to wrestlers and MMAers, who consider it a very good position for both clinch and ground...but they actually get points for it, and are allowed to grab from behind - and it can lead to high-amplitude throws and pins.
They're not allowed to strike from behind, though (or at all).
Conversely, about the only way to use it in a striking-only sport is to hit the sides of the body and head, to give a low kick to the back of the thigh - which I believe is legal - or to wait for the moment when the opponent is turning for a "free shot" in a legal area of the body or head.
So, while some strikers have been using such a move - Carpentier is one example - most trainers consider it a waste of time and effort. And what isn't trained isn't often used, right?

Why? Same reason groin, neck and eye shots are forbidden: too much risk of injury, including permanent injury. I think Voros Voros would have a few words for anyone who believes a rabbit punch is safer than a shot to the jaw...:grin:
(Hint: The back of the head is the most exposed area to the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system. Rabbit punches often give concussions and can cause permanent brain damage. Striking the back of the head/neck can dislocate the vertebra leading to the base of the skull, resulting in death or paralisys. In short, there's a reason why the "united MMA rules" allow strikes to the kidneys, but forbid strikes to the back of the head and neck).

And I'd like to point out that the spine isn't protected from the back, especially against focused strikes - like elbows and knees. Let that sink in, then consider what an elbow or knee to the spine could do - especially while pulling the body in the opposite direction! Crushed vertebrae is no joke, and while I like, for example, bare-knuckle boxing, kard chuek and Lethwei (one of these allows headbutts and neither uses much gloves), I draw the line of combat sports at "intentionally damaging the spinal cord, brain and internal organs"...
So no, I'm not in favour of allowing it, make no mistake! I just want people not to forget how dangerous such targets are. Or else they could deliver such strikes by accident, or thinking it's "no big deal".

I wasn't disagreeing with you Asen. I was thinking out loud as it isn't a topic I had considered much before. The guy's theory is very weird and one I haven't heard before. I don't think it is all rules though in striking. I think it is more about people not presenting their back to you as a target that much (which still is rules related I suppose as you are not going to have the on the ground situations you get in MMA). I can't recall if the back was a legal target when I was doing TKD (but you have a chest guard in TKD so even if it is allowed, and even though the chest guard straps in the back, there is probably ample protection of the back---and you can't do stuff like elbows and knees in TKD. EDIT: Pretty sure it wasn't as I don't believe you could get points for hitting the back). In muay thai I remember the back was a considered a legal target (at least, I remember being told it was legal at the gym I used to go to). Heck you could kick the neck in Muay Thai (I have been kicked in the neck twice and punched in the neck once: one of the kicks knocked me out instantly, the other wasn't very solid but still very uncomfortable, the punch was a fowl in TKD without gloves and hurt more than anything and was a very strange sensation in my throat). I don't know if you are allowed to elbow to the back in Muay Thai, but pretty sure you are as I have seen them in Thai fights a lot. Rabbit punches were illegal in muay thai if I remember correctly. My point was just that stand up strikers tend to square off and face each other, so I don't really remember having too many solid opportunities to strike the back (the opponents back was rarely facing me, and if it was it was usually brief like for a spinning technique). I agree with you about rabbit punches (I have had that done to me and it is definitely different from taking a hit to the front or side of the head). One thing you do in a sport like muay thai for that reason is 'build up your armor': you try to build muscles all over (particularly places like the stomach, side, back, neck, etc so you are more resilient when you get kicked-when I got kicked in the neck I was doing regular exercises to strengthen my neck muscles....I imagine getting kicked there would potentially be much worse if it happened to me now (I exercise, do bag work and lift almost every day but I don't bother with any of the neck exercises as I haven't sparred since last year before the shutdowns started and they aren't the kind of exercise I do unless I feel like I need to do them).

Here is a couple of neck kick knock outs for fun:


 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
And I'd like to point out that the spine isn't protected from the back, especially against focused strikes - like elbows and knees. Let that sink in, then consider what an elbow or knee to the spine could do - especially while pulling the body in the opposite direction! Crushed vertebrae is no joke, and while I like, for example, bare-knuckle boxing, kard chuek and Lethwei (one of these allows headbutts and neither uses much gloves), I draw the line of combat sports at "intentionally damaging the spinal cord, brain and internal organs"...

In terms of targeting the actual spine (which definitely sounds dangerous even if you have large back muscles), I am not 100% sure but I think that is disallowed in muay thai. I still can't imagine it would be an easy thing to target though unless the person is in a very vulnerable position
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
I draw the line of combat sports at "intentionally damaging the spinal cord, brain and internal organs"...

I think that is a good line. Though I will say, even though damaging the brain is never (or should never) be intentional, blows to the head are naturally going to cause brain damage over time. I definitely think I have some cognitive issues from it myself. On internal organs my biggest worry was always the heart (never actually seen anyone's heart stop in a fight, but I have heard of people getting things like pericarditis----I've had pericarditis, not from martial arts, just dumb luck, and definitely not something you want). My old TKD instructor used to tell me that TKD guys often end up with kidney disease (because the tendency towards a sideways stance, and the side and back kick often hitting the kidney). I don't know if that is true or not. It made intuitive sense because so many of those side kicks seemed to connect with that area. However I think he was just going by all the TKD masters he knew. But it always made me a little cautious about my kidneys. I knew one guy who took a back kick to the kidney's and was urinating blood the next day (or so he said at least). Definitely a good idea to strengthen the torso muscles as much as you can to reduce the impact of those kinds of blows.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
I think that is a good line. Though I will say, even though damaging the brain is never (or should never) be intentional, blows to the head are naturally going to cause brain damage over time. I definitely think I have some cognitive issues from it myself. On internal organs my biggest worry was always the heart (never actually seen anyone's heart stop in a fight, but I have heard of people getting things like pericarditis----I've had pericarditis, not from martial arts, just dumb luck, and definitely not something you want). My old TKD instructor used to tell me that TKD guys often end up with kidney disease (because the tendency towards a sideways stance, and the side and back kick often hitting the kidney). I don't know if that is true or not. It made intuitive sense because so many of those side kicks seemed to connect with that area. However I think he was just going by all the TKD masters he knew. But it always made me a little cautious about my kidneys. I knew one guy who took a back kick to the kidney's and was urinating blood the next day (or so he said at least). Definitely a good idea to strengthen the torso muscles as much as you can to reduce the impact of those kinds of blows.
Yeah, I worded it the way I did exactly because I mean stuff like "spiking" (throwing headfirst in the ground, Zangief-style), blows to the back of the head and neck, such stuff. The face is well-protected in comparison.
And yes, I know brain damage accumulates over time, which is why I prefer getting my experience in getting hit in the face in very limited, rationed doses, and preferably in weapons sparring:thumbsup:. But I'm not going to claim boxing is a problem. It's a relatively well-known risk, if you go to full-contact fighting, I can assume you were fine with it.
Having your spine crushed, no such assumption.

Strikes to the kidneys are one of the reason I prefer a non-bladed stance, regardless of torso muscles. There's just almost no muscle tissue over the kidneys, same as with the liver, no matter how much you strengthen them. I've seen those ending fights, and I know pissing blood afterwards is a very real possibility.
Consider it like this: once you get behind somebody, he's got 3 livers instead of one:devil:.

In terms of targeting the actual spine (which definitely sounds dangerous even if you have large back muscles), I am not 100% sure but I think that is disallowed in muay thai. I still can't imagine it would be an easy thing to target though unless the person is in a very vulnerable position
I'm pretty sure it's disallowed in MT, too, though it would depend on the organisation/stadium.

I mean, in some stadiums in Thailand, groin kicks and attacks to the knees are reportedly allowed, so I don't think anyone there would make a big deal out of a little kidney striking:evil:!
Amusingly, you might end up in more trouble for using your feet to throw:grin:!

And well, people end up in one of the five very convenient "extremely vulnerable positions" all the time in MMA (back clinch and mount being the most prominant). Still nobody uses attacks to the spine, because they are prohibited. Same as the reason why nobody gets kicked in the face or, worse, stomped on the face... Google "bronco kick" if you don't know already what it is (though I'd argue that the 12-6 elbow was an unnecessary restriction). Rules are necessary for such sports, I say!
Call me a softie if you will:tongue:.

BTW, I'm just waiting until someone thinks to drill and use hammerfists/knees/elbows to the kidneys from back clinch or from side grapple position:shade:.
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
And yes, I know brain damage accumulates over time, which is why I prefer getting my experience in getting hit in the face in very limited, rationed doses, and preferably in weapons sparring:thumbsup:. But I'm not going to claim boxing is a problem. It's a relatively well-known risk, if you go to full-contact fighting, I can assume you were fine with it.

Lol. Well, I am fine with it for me and anyone not related to me who wants to do it. I am not fine for it with my nieces and nephews if they want to box. My grandfather was the same way. He was a boxer and never encouraged me to box, and never was willing to teach me to box (because he knew too many guys who ended up brain damaged). I think it is fine. It is good to know what the consequences of head trauma are, but I think sports like boxing are important to keep alive. I do think it is a serious thing to consider before participating in a combat sport. And I think we know so much more about how concussions work than when I started, that it probably should be a conversation people have the moment the step into a boxing gym so they are going in eyes wide open (back when I started we were still sparring with concussions, didn't really think much of concussions unless they were especially bad---in which case you might take a little time off from contact).
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
8,464
Quick question. There are alot of capable martial artists in thsi thread. How many ofnyou guys train for real scenarios more than you do for anything else? Just curious.
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Quick question. There are alot of capable martial artists in thsi thread. How many ofnyou guys train for real scenarios more than you do for anything else? Just curious.

I don't train for real scenarios at all. I always was mainly interested in combat sport side (sparring and competition). I find I get bored quickly so for me it was mainly just about having fun and brawling. Haven't been to any kind of gym in about a year though, so now I just hit the heavy bag in my yard
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Quick question. There are alot of capable martial artists in thsi thread. How many ofnyou guys train for real scenarios more than you do for anything else? Just curious.
I'm not one of the capable martial artists that you refer to, being incapable and all, but I train for two things: fun, and health. It's just that the "health" part to me includes what other people call "real-world applications", because getting beaten (not to mention getting killed) can be really bad for your health:shade:!
Consequently, I don't predict ever having to use any skills outside of training or fending off an assault. And I prefer prevention and deescalation before we get there.
Also, all kinds of grappling are lots of fun.

And yes, everything outside those goals would be a welcome benefit:thumbsup:.
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
I'm not one of the capable martial artists that you refer to, being incapable and all, but I train for two things: fun, and health. It's just that the "health" part to me includes what other people call "real-world applications", because getting beaten (not to mention getting killed) can be really bad for your health:shade:!
Consequently, I don't predict ever having to use any skills outside of training or fending off an assault. And I prefer prevention and deescalation before we get there.
Also, all kinds of grappling are lots of fun.

And yes, everything outside those goals would be a welcome benefit:thumbsup:.

I am pretty hot tempered in everyday life, so deescalation is something I definitely could work on. If I feel disrespected I am easily provoked. That's one of the reasons I prefer to focus on fun as well (and health like you say). Lately my focus has been on doing weights, a bit of cardio and then hitting the heavy bag. Once I get the vaccine I might start going back to a gym, but not sure how much I want to get my head knocked around anymore these days.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Curious discovery, though it might not be new to anyone but me:shade:. But I was watching Adam Wheeler's video and just started laughing...

The more I watch wrestling instructional videos, the more often I see kung-fu moves. I think I noticed it first with Zack Esposito, but since then, Adam Wheeler, Chael Sonnen, Burton Richardson and Mike Houck confirmed my suspicions. (OK, Burton Richardson isn't a pure wrestler, he just studied from wrestlers, a certain Randy Couture included...but he showed a throw in his "Clinch for the street" which uses a Chinese stance that few kung-fu stylists know how to use in a real-life altercation:devil:).

pubu.jpg

Most kung-fu stylists explain something nonsensical like "it's purely for stretching".
Hint: it's the final stage in a throw from back bodylock. One of the nastiest throws I've seen, too.


And the reason was clarified by an old book on Chinese wrestling, which has been translated in Russian. In it, the origin of the various "stances" (though the correct translation from Chinese is "steps":thumbsup:) was explained as "those were the positions of the feet that helped interfere with the opponent's balance and didn't allow the opponent to recover quickly":evil:.
In the same book, they show throws and other sequences without an opponent, too (Esposito and Sonnen do the same, the latter actually said it outright - you can practise these moves alone).
And, surprise, those are moves I've seen in many, many Asain forms...but nobody was able to explain clearly what they were for (dubious interpretation as weird kinds of strikes aside, I never really bought it).

I mean, I've seen similarities in the way Anderson Silva was doing some moves, but the similarities weren't complete, so I'd just written them off.
With wrestling, the similarities are "complete, 100%, I know kung-fu trainers who'd "grade" those guys based on those moves". I'm not about to write them off.

So here's my personal theory: the origin of kung-fu moves is in the ability to use weapons. That includes a whole shitload of grappling in the real world, too: look at any surviving HEMA manual, and if it doesn't focus purely on one weapon, or purely on grappling, it includes them both. Actually, Fiore dei Liberi starts at least two of his manuals with the wrestling section - a choice many sword-focused HEMAists find curious.
But I guess he was just thinking "first things first", right:tongue:?

Amusingly, that also can explain the key differences between boxing and contemporary traditional martial arts. Like, pretty much all of the explanations for those that I was told - by numerous trainers, most of which don't know each other - would make no sense...unless you assumed the opponent was at least a decent grappler/wrestler who is fighting you on uneven ground, and maybe you've already been grappled by one of his hands...
Then it suddenly makes a lot more sense to, say, not jump on your toes, to avoid straightening the elbow (until it "locks") during a strike and to try and redirect a strike instead of covering:grin:! (I mean, I've been discussing the latter at length in this thread. But now just imagine for a moment that he wants you to cover, and if you do, he's not going to retract the strike...instead, he's opening the hand and establishes a second grip as well. You all know what's coming next, right?
Amusingly, one of the first defenses they teach you in traditional Ju Jutsu is "defense against grab and strike". Merely a coincidence, I'd wager:smile:!)

Maybe I should do an youtube video on the matter:wink:!
 

Raleel

The Lemon LeCroix of Mythras
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
3,626
Reaction score
7,340
So here's my personal theory: the origin of kung-fu moves is in the ability to use weapons. That includes a whole shitload of grappling in the real world, too: look at any surviving HEMA manual, and if it doesn't focus purely on one weapon, or purely on grappling, it includes them both. Actually, Fiore dei Liberi starts at least two of his manuals with the wrestling section - a choice many sword-focused HEMAists find curious.
Not just HEMA for sure. Also a part of Japanese arts, especially ones from the samurai. The splitting out into separate arts seems like a much more recent occurrence. We learned a lot about this when doing judo and aikido, though I’ve not heard about it in context of kendo (much less experience there)

this is one reason why when I’m doing combat styles for Mythras, anything for a “trained fighter” gets unarmed as a part of the style, regardless if it is modern (military) or ancient (samurai, HEMA, whatever).
 

zanshin

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
325
Reaction score
572
Quick question. There are alot of capable martial artists in thsi thread. How many ofnyou guys train for real scenarios more than you do for anything else? Just curious.
My current style, Kaikatsudo, focuses a lot on real world application of Wado Karate, Wing Chun and Tai Chi. It aims for synthesis or giving you a variety of options at the ranges.

I previously did mainly Karate and Tang Sou Dao, with classical/sports approach. That was better for my fitness, but the current style feels more practical. However it doesn't hurt that I learned a bit of how to kick, punch, move and block.

I have never trained especially ferociously though - 4 or so hours a week at most.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Not just HEMA for sure. Also a part of Japanese arts, especially ones from the samurai. The splitting out into separate arts seems like a much more recent occurrence. We learned a lot about this when doing judo and aikido, though I’ve not heard about it in context of kendo (much less experience there)

this is one reason why when I’m doing combat styles for Mythras, anything for a “trained fighter” gets unarmed as a part of the style, regardless if it is modern (military) or ancient (samurai, HEMA, whatever).
Yeah, and there's another translated book I've found on a Russian site, "Okinawan Kempo".
From the intro (paraphrasing by memory): "The movements, as in styles originating in China, can be used with weapons in hand - although doing so defeats the point of an unarmed system"...

Today we'd have said "Philippines" when thinking of styles that transfer weapons work to unarmed application. But Maul Mornie, a Silat master from Brunei, says outright that in Silat, "it's all about the machete"...and his moves evidence that, to me. In fact, I'd say his students would do well to focus on cutting.
So it's still the same.
And his style is curiously similar to what I've been taught as "folk wrestling" from my area (but then we call everything "wrestling", because it's the same word that's used for "struggle" - so a machine translator of old journal papers might well tell you about "the armed wrestling of the guerillas against the tsarist regime and the fascists").

In Japanese styles, many Aikido masters would tell you you must learn the sword and jo to learn their moves. Morihei Ueshiba was master of both the katana and the yari, and it shows:shade:. A Russian hapkido trainer I've been following gives the same advice for this style, too. In fact, he recommends you to try some variety of historical fencing.

As for Muay Thai...well, it is known to derive from Krabi Krabong and the techniques for the battlefield. And the moves are generally compared to weapons - spear and sword, usually.

BTW, Kendo before the war contained a lot of grabbing the opponent by the dogu and twisting it to take him down, reportedly. Obviously, I've never seen that, that's just a report I've read.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
And something for all of you that are also comics-lovers...which on this forum is "all of you":grin:!


I've always been saying that using comics to teach younger guys how to play is an unexplored opportunity. It seems Stephen Kesting has had the same idea regarding my other hobby as well...to the point where he's offering 50-pages comics in addition to (some of?) his DVD courses:shade:!
I can only admire the idea!

And of course, if we could get the same for Mythras, it would have been cool:devil:!
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Lately I have been trying to bring back my full arsenal of kicks on the heavy bag (a lot of my fancier kicks from the martial arts I started in fell by the way side and got rusty over the years: just had trouble finding practical application for them but now I am mainly just using martial arts to stay fit and have fun). The only thing I don't like is my heavy bag is outside (still contemplating returning to a gym but wary with all that is going on, and in no rush) and that means kicks always get it pretty grimy. Round kicks get a little dirt on it, while teeps, back kicks and side kicks, transfer all the dirt from the bottom of my shoe onto it. Then it bursts into clouds of dust when I hit it. So I tend to save those kicks for the last two rounds on the back. Way different from doing it indoors (which is how I normally did kicks on a bag in the past). EDIT: Should mention I live in a city where our yards are pretty tightly connected and everyone is a contractor, mulching, working with concrete, etc so the dust levels get exceedingly high)

I am surprised that I still have a lot of flexibility (could do more stretching though). I can still land the back kick well but really need to find a partner soon to train on so I am using it on a moving target. Spinning hook is no where near ready for live sparring (I see it as a very high risk, high reward move, which sparring in other styles has made me wary of)
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Lately I have been trying to bring back my full arsenal of kicks on the heavy bag (a lot of my fancier kicks from the martial arts I started in fell by the way side and got rusty over the years: just had trouble finding practical application for them but now I am mainly just using martial arts to stay fit and have fun). The only thing I don't like is my heavy bag is outside (still contemplating returning to a gym but wary with all that is going on, and in no rush) and that means kicks always get it pretty grimy. Round kicks get a little dirt on it, while teeps, back kicks and side kicks, transfer all the dirt from the bottom of my shoe onto it. Then it bursts into clouds of dust when I hit it. So I tend to save those kicks for the last two rounds on the back. Way different from doing it indoors (which is how I normally did kicks on a bag in the past).

I am surprised that I still have a lot of flexibility (could do more stretching though). I can still land the back kick well but really need to find a partner soon to train on so I am using it on a moving target. Spinning hook is no where near ready for live sparring (I see it as a very high risk, high reward move, which sparring in other styles has made me wary of)
Have you tried pushing the bag so it swings, then nailing it:shade:?

It might also help to get white marks on each 10 cms of the floor, under the place it would swing over, so you could estimate its swing better at first to land a suitable strike? (In this respect, it would work like range bands...a heresy, I know:grin:!)

Just random ideas I've heard elsewhere, you know. Sorry if they don't help!

I admit I'm not sure what "spinning hook kick" is, same as spinning back kick? If so, yeah, that one is hard to place suitably well. I've always much preferred the "reversed straight kick" type if I'm going to turn my back. Though odds are good I won't try that at all:devil:.
That is, unless someone tries too much pressuring with fists. Then it actually does pretty well as a counter, since it takes your head out of the range of fire as part of the motion:thumbsup:.

Amusingly, I watched a Saenchai video last night. He was kicking the other guy with enough force to push him back, and on sweeps, to take his leg way up there.
Near the end, I was just glad he didn't do likewise when showing the jumpkick combo:angel:!
 
Last edited:

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Have you tried pushing the bag so it swings, then nailing it:shade:?

Yes. I like to do this with my teep, pushing the bag and then landing a back kick when it swings back. This is pretty good for timing. I always try to make the bag like a real opponent. But it also still lies a bit (it moves at whatever speed I dictate, it isn an enormous target, doesn't counter, doesn't block, doesn't step the side or suddenly step back, etc). Also, especially with back kick, the feel of kick a person and kicking a bag, and moving them back, is so different from heavy bag to person. I like using back kick as a counter when someone moves their weight forward. It used to be my favorite kick. I would be interested to see how well I can still land it as my style has changed a lot over the years. I love the bag. Every day, provided it isn't too cold out, I try to get 4-5 rounds at least on it (been leaning more on 5 minute rounds lately).


It might also help to get white marks on each 10 cms of the floor, under the place it would swing over, so you could estimate its swing better at first to land a suitable strike? (In this respect, it would work like range bands...a heresy, I know
:grin:
!)
It is mostly concrete in the yard. So I am mainly standing on a very uneven paved yard.
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
I'd love an outdoor heavy bag. But I live in Wales and we get a LOT of rain. Which limits my options.

Lol. Weather is definitely a consideration. I live in Boston. Lots of rain, and snow in the winter. What tends to happen is I use it most of the year except the heavy snow months when the back kind of freezes (you have to test it with your hand when it gets cold so you don't break it when you punch). Ideally I would have it indoors. I have been contemplating setting it up in the basement but that will take some preparation and work to make happen (whereas it is pretty easy to set up outside----and it is great getting sun while doing bag work).
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
I like using back kick as a counter when someone moves their weight forward. It used to be my favorite kick.
Yours, too:shock:?

It is mostly concrete in the yard. So I am mainly standing on a very uneven paved yard.
White paint works on concrete, too:thumbsup:.
Lol. Weather is definitely a consideration. I live in Boston. Lots of rain, and snow in the winter. What tends to happen is I use it most of the year except the heavy snow months when the back kind of freezes (you have to test it with your hand when it gets cold so you don't break it when you punch).
But think of the story!
"I really broke that heavy bag! Now, who wants to fight me?"
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Double post, but hey...
I've been watching Muay Thai instructionals since last night. Conclusions: There goes my pet theory!

See, until now the only guys I've seen who seem like they enjoy what they're doing (during an instructional) were Eastern Europeans and Southeast Asians.

Georgi Ivanov: doing a high-amplitude throw on his partner. "Woohoo!" (He even explained: "Sorry, I just like doing that"). That's what I call "loving your job":devil:.

Lyubo Kumbarov: "And here you can bite him!" (After a takedown and getting in position, and while applying - almost absent-mindedly - an arm triangle on screen...but that's not what he said:grin:).

Vlad Koulikov...I don't remember any specific moments, but I remember there were some. Just not exactly what he said or did. Need to rewatch his Sambo/BJJ fusion.

Saenchai seems to find it very funny when the opponent is in a grip he can't escape, and/or is about to receive a sweep he can't defend.

Buakaw is outright laughing in those moments, and twisting the captured limb. I suspect he's doing it for the show and not really twisting (his partner in the video seems to laugh, and to drop theatrically at times... but at other times, you can hear distress in the partner's voice. Now, there's no translation of the exchanges between them - only Buakaw's instructions - but I suspect he's telling him "try to get out" (or "try to get out now, I want to show how to stop it").
So I had a nice theory all lined-up...

...and then here appeared Bass Rutten (though he's in Asia now, in the BANG Muay Thai, so he might have caught the bug from them).
"Look carefully, guys. I was obsessed with what I do, still am (...) This means I can explain you the "why" behind every detail!"
Introducing his partner at the start. "Thank you very much...guys, I thank him, because he's going to get hurt now!"

That's what I call fun training:tongue:!
 
Last edited:

zanshin

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
325
Reaction score
572
Double post, but hey...
I've been watching Muay Thai instructionals since last night. Conclusions: There goes my pet theory!

See, until now the only guys I've seen who seem like they enjoy what they're doing (during an instructional) were Eastern Europeans and Southeast Asians.

Georgi Ivanov: doing a high-amplitude throw on his partner. "Woohoo!" (He even explained: "Sorry, I just like doing that"). That's what I call "loving your job":devil:.

Lyubo Kumbarov: "And here you can bite him!" (After a takedown and getting in position, and while applying - almost absent-mindedly - an arm triangle on screen...but that's not what he said:grin:).

Vlad Koulikov...I don't remember any specific moments, but I remember there were some. Just not exactly what he said or did. Need to rewatch his Sambo/BJJ fusion.

Saenchai seems to find it very funny when the opponent is in a grip he can't escape, and/or is about to receive a sweep he can't defend.

Buakaw is outright laughing in those moments, and twisting the captured limb. I suspect he's doing it for the show and not really twisting (his partner in the video seems to laugh, and to drop theatrically at times... but at other times, you can hear distress in the partner's voice. Now, there's no translation of the exchanges between them - only Buakaw's instructions - but I suspect he's telling him "try to get out" (or "try to get out now, I want to show how to stop it").
So I had a nice theory all lined-up...

...and then here appeared Bass Rutten (though he's in Asia now, in the BANG Muay Thai, so he might have caught the bug from them).
"Look carefully, guys. I was obsessed with what I do, still am (...) This means I can explain you the "why" behind every detail!"
Introducing his partner at the start. "Thank you very much...guys, I thank him, because he's going to get hurt now!"

That's what I call fun training:tongue:!
Is there a link you can share?
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Double post, but hey...
I've been watching Muay Thai instructionals since last night. Conclusions: There goes my pet theory!

See, until now the only guys I've seen who seem like they enjoy what they're doing (during an instructional) were Eastern Europeans and Southeast Asians.

Georgi Ivanov: doing a high-amplitude throw on his partner. "Woohoo!" (He even explained: "Sorry, I just like doing that"). That's what I call "loving your job":devil:.

Lyubo Kumbarov: "And here you can bite him!" (After a takedown and getting in position, and while applying - almost absent-mindedly - an arm triangle on screen...but that's not what he said:grin:).

Vlad Koulikov...I don't remember any specific moments, but I remember there were some. Just not exactly what he said or did. Need to rewatch his Sambo/BJJ fusion.

Saenchai seems to find it very funny when the opponent is in a grip he can't escape, and/or is about to receive a sweep he can't defend.

Buakaw is outright laughing in those moments, and twisting the captured limb. I suspect he's doing it for the show and not really twisting (his partner in the video seems to laugh, and to drop theatrically at times... but at other times, you can hear distress in the partner's voice. Now, there's no translation of the exchanges between them - only Buakaw's instructions - but I suspect he's telling him "try to get out" (or "try to get out now, I want to show how to stop it").
So I had a nice theory all lined-up...

...and then here appeared Bass Rutten (though he's in Asia now, in the BANG Muay Thai, so he might have caught the bug from them).
"Look carefully, guys. I was obsessed with what I do, still am (...) This means I can explain you the "why" behind every detail!"
Introducing his partner at the start. "Thank you very much...guys, I thank him, because he's going to get hurt now!"

That's what I call fun training:tongue:!

I'd like to see the link too. I may not fully understand what you were reacting to. Were you saying that they are very light hearted in their training?

If so being relaxed is a pretty fundamental aspect of Muay Thai (they always say Sabai, Sabai which means relax). And Thai culture in general places a lot of emphasis on something called sanook, which kind of translates into 'Fun'.
 

BedrockBrendan

Legendary Member
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
832
Reaction score
1,843
Yours, too:shock:?

It was my favorite when I did TKD, and it was a kick I always liked to continue practicing. If someone is moving into it, it just has so much power if you use it as a counter (and being 5'7" 146 back when I was competing, I found that helpful).
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Is there a link you can share?

I'd like to see the link too.
Yes and no...I mean, I have links, but those are unlikely to be that useful. Those are my conclusions on watching instructional videos I've bought from six sites:
warriorcollective.co.uk
dynamicstriking
bjjfanatics
judofanatics
effectiveselfdefense
fanaticwrestling.

Now, for the five latter sites (i.e. not for warriorcollective, which doesn't have such an option) I can give you my referral links: joining via them gives you a coupon for $20 off of a single purchase...:grin:
Granted, if you ever make a purchase (even one of the free videos, of which there is at least one on four of those sites!), I get 200 "loyalty points", so I'd like you to choose that:devil:!

Of course, you could also join by yourself, but that usually nets you a coupon for 20% off of a purchase...which is seldom as useful. Most of the videos I'm talking about were in the $47 to $97 range, so my coupon beats the other option:tongue:!
(You can only use one coupon per purchase, though. However, they have daily sales of 40 to 60% off. Oh, and just as a hint, if you buy anything, you can get another purchase at a higher discount, which is usually 20% off. And last hint, they have a standing coupon for 15% off that is published on the pages of their youtube videos).

I may not fully understand what you were reacting to. Were you saying that they are very light hearted in their training?
Yes, but more than that: they actually seemed to enjoy it.
Like, I can base many NPCs on these guys' attitude...:devil:

If so being relaxed is a pretty fundamental aspect of Muay Thai (they always say Sabai, Sabai which means relax). And Thai culture in general places a lot of emphasis on something called sanook, which kind of translates into 'Fun'.
Well, to me being relaxed is a fundamental aspect of martial arts, period. And people having fun training is also a well-known phenomenon.
What I mean is they all enjoyed, let's put it this way, being able to do a good job the opponent has no chance in hell of preventing them from doing.

It was my favorite when I did TKD, and it was a kick I always liked to continue practicing. If someone is moving into it, it just has so much power if you use it as a counter (and being 5'7" 146 back when I was competing, I found that helpful).
I'm 6'1'' in your measures, never weighed at below 230 pounds, and I still find that same kick enjoyable for much the same reasons:shade:.
 

AsenRG

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
7,951
Reaction score
8,018
Also, something that Doc Sammy Doc Sammy would like to hear: the general choice of phrases of the Thai trainers were, in translation, a lot like the phrases you get from fan translations of manga, to a lesser extent, like fan translations of wuxia:grin:!
"It is too difficult to kick in this situation..." where a Westerner would just say "you don't kick here, do that instead" was a shining example. Another was an accent on "everyone can do that!"
(Yes, of course I could climb on somebody's hip to elbow him in the head... the problem is, I wouldn't try, because I'd expect the opponent to fall. Which would, actually, counter my move quite effectively:shade:!)
 
Cthulhu Mythos - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Top