The Martial Arts Thread

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AsenRG

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Unless they are doing something like hapkido, Jello Wrestling isn't a real martial art :smile:
All forms of wrestling are martial arts, man:thumbsup:. And yes, all forms, including highly ritualised ones*, or visually spectacular ones...Sumo being a prime example:grin:!

Sure, some might be done in a more martial spirit, and with more or less dedication and seriousness...but the fact that "Xtreme Martial Arts" exist doesn't make TKD any less of a martial art, IMO. They would just be less useful in a real altercation.
But even then, someone practicing XMA would be in great physical shape, so more dangerous than the average person...as long as he doesn't try to use his "art".
Jello wrestling would be more immediately useful, really. If they were wrestling for real, I mean:gunslinger:.
And what I'm proposing is to look at whether jello wrestling could be used as training, and would it offer any benefits.

*Though I'd admit that it took me a long, long time to understand that, and some encounters with wrestlers...which was followed by studying it:shade:.


Edited to add: I must also admit that the first two encounters, both of which ended with me getting my ass kicked, weren't enough. The mindwash of considering only Asian martial arts to be any good was as strong as the White Wolf-ish spiels/drivels about "story":devil:!
 
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BedrockBrendan

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All forms of wrestling are martial arts, man:thumbsup:. And yes, all forms, including highly ritualised ones*, or visually spectacular ones...Sumo being a prime example:grin:!

If they are actually wrestling, I agree :smile: If they are just two unskilled people thrown into an inflated pool of jello for entertainment, I would say not a martial art. I suppose it gets murky though because you could have a venue set up for the former, but still have people enter the mix who have martial arts training and apply it. So I will concede there is a gray area Asen :smile:
 

AsenRG

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If they are actually wrestling, I agree :smile: If they are just two unskilled people thrown into an inflated pool of jello for entertainment, I would say not a martial art. I suppose it gets murky though because you could have a venue set up for the former, but still have people enter the mix who have martial arts training and apply it. So I will concede there is a gray area Asen :smile:
Well, if they're unskilled, it's like throwing unskilled people in the bareknuckle circuit...just with less blood, concussions and broken fingers! Different kinds of entertainment and all that... :grin:

Still, even if unskilled, if they do it regularly, they should start developping some skills, eventually... might not be anything impressive, but is still relevant:thumbsup:.

And either way, I was talking about whether jello/grits wrestling would be worthy of consideration as a kind of exercise:shade:.

Though I'm dead certain nobody wants to watch me jello-wrestling. So there's probably a reason why it hasn't become a martial arts fad yet:tongue:!
 

Voros

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The Fight City is a great boxing site with excellent essays and videos on boxing history and contemporary boxing. This is a cool article on proto-boxing matches in Homer and Virgil.

 

AsenRG

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I (re-)started BJJ, because First Daughter actually fell in love with grappling. She trains four times a week now, which makes me happy...that's BJJ only, not including swimming and yoga:thumbsup:!
Like me, she believes instinctively rest days are for the weak:gunslinger:! (And she'd have those anyway - I can't always get her to all the practice).

If there was a wrestling school nearby that accepts girls, I'd sign her up. But there isn't one in a convenient location, and I've gotten out of shape for wrestling myself, so I would be unwise to join now.
So, while I don't expect to ever have an use for most of the ground moves on the street...I'm enjoying it immensely.
I mean, it's as much fun as I remember it to be (even the conditioning style is fun, reminds me of a dirty mix of yoga, calisthenics and wrestling exercises), the trainer and the group are nice, and I am getting in shape:shade:!

The latter, BTW, means "I lost about 2,6 kgs/~6lbs in three practice sessions":tongue:. I kid you not! The first week is not yet gone...and there's practice tonight as well!
Some diets promised me that much in a month...:devil:

If it goes like this, I'd give a picture of myself in the previous week to the trainer, and a picture I take on Sunday, and allow him to use them as "before" and "after" pictures in an ad:grin:!

And later I might get to wrestling again. Though I'm adamant I don't plan to leave the Open Mat BJJ gym behind, I might start alternating!
 

Fenris-77

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If they are actually wrestling, I agree :smile: If they are just two unskilled people thrown into an inflated pool of jello for entertainment, I would say not a martial art.
Lets get granular here. What about two hot Russian girls thrown into a pool of honey? Asking for a friend...
 

AsenRG

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Only honey?
What else?


Also, I just realized something about ground grappling while watching instructionals ("I've got the flues", as they say...so can only watch - as the saying goes, "the hungry chicken dreams of rye"). Maybe it's so well-known nobody has taught to inform me.
Or maybe it's something new. Anyway, let me share:
"Almost all reversals of position are variations of throws you'd use in standing. Some are variations of sutemi-waza, like the butterfly sweep. Others are variations of single leg, or even leg sweep".

So much for my revelations.

Also, V. Belfort defeating EH is insane, no matter the age:shock:!
 
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Voros

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Not a surprise to boxing fans who were well aware that Evander is in poor health, punch-drunk. That he was allowed to step into a ring was grotesque and despicable.
 

AsenRG

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Not a surprise to boxing fans who were well aware that Evander is in poor health, punch-drunk. That he was allowed to step into a ring was grotesque and despicable.
I wasn't aware of the "punch-drunk" part. Why the hell did he even want to step in:shock:? I don't think he has money issues, though I admit I'm going by hearsay, here.
 

Voros

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I wasn't aware of the "punch-drunk" part. Why the hell did he even want to step in:shock:? I don't think he has money issues, though I admit I'm going by hearsay, here.

No, apparently he is broke or close to it despite all the money he made.

Sadly an all too-common occurence for aging boxers.

In terms of how despicable him being allowed to fight is: they moved the venue to Florida because Nevada refused to allow the fight because of Evander's condition.
 

AsenRG

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No, apparently he is broke or close to it despite all the money he made.

Sadly an all too-common occurence for aging boxers.

In terms of how despicable him being allowed to fight is: they moved the venue to Florida because Nevada refused to allow the fight because of Evander's condition.
...well, and VB is not well known for showing mercy to opponents. Though this just might save Evander Holyfield's life, if he's not allowed to fight again after that debacle... though to be honest, I don't think it's likely. At least at the moment my faith in humanity ain't strong enough to believe boxing promoters would pass easy money:devil:.

Although, amusingly, they might not have been allowed to fight under MMA rules. MMA is trying to lose the image of gladiators, while boxing is used to it, after all.
Despite the fact that then Vitor Belfort might have won without hurting his head. (Not likely, but at least possible...since I'm pretty sure he's a better ground grappler:shade:).
 
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AsenRG

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It turns out, the Muay clinch actually works as a submission on the ground. Didn't expect that, but I loved knowing it...and managed to score two submissions with it:grin:!
 

AsenRG

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It turns out, the Muay clinch actually works as a submission on the ground. Didn't expect that, but I loved knowing it...and managed to score two submissions with it:grin:!
Also, turns out it's called "can opener", and is illegal in IBJJF competitions...which is funny, as it's not likely to break even a rather stiff neck...like my own:tongue:.

Ah well, the trainer in our school is of the opinion that "if it works, it's permissible for Jiu Jitsu, but if you're training for competition, you should train according to the ruleset". Couldn't agree more:grin:!

So yes, he explicitly allowed the can opener in free rolling, possibly as a special exception, even though he bars most neck cranks for safety reasons...and - possibly surprisingly to some, given my ideas about safety - I agree with this approach as well:shade:!

Oh, and here's a video on how to defend it, by SK.
 
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AsenRG

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I think Voros Voros and others might have something to say about Oleksander Usyk's win over Antony Joshua:shade:.
 

Voros

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I suspected that Usyk, who is a pleasure to watch fight, would live up to the moment.


It was refreshing to see heavyweights moving, feinting and throwing lots. Too often watching modern HWs is like watching a fight in slow motion.
 

AsenRG

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So, Voros Voros - or anyone else - have you heard that Mike Tyson now wants to fight Paul Logan (or his brother)? As he puts it, it would be a fight for " big money", which is absolutely understandable for old boxers, as mentioned in this thread...:shade:

But the question is, would it lead to a repeat of the Hollyfield - Belfort parody, in your opinion:shock:?

I really have no idea what health is Iron Mike in, but he is what, over 50 years old? And he's been a pro boxer, as we all know. No idea how much that impacted him.
 

Voros

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Belfort had real experience in combat sports and from what I heard was a heavy hitter in MMA, whereas Logan, either one, is a rank amateur.

I don't think someone of Tyson's age should be fighting at all but I'd favour him to KO either one of the Logans (he'd also have a significant weight advantage which Mayweather didn't).
 

AsenRG

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Belfort had real experience in combat sports and from what I heard was a heavy hitter in MMA, whereas Logan, either one, is a rank amateur.

I don't think someone of Tyson's age should be fighting at all but I'd favour him to KO either one of the Logans (he'd also have a significant weight advantage which Mayweather didn't).
Belfort is definitely as you describe him:thumbsup:.

And you know, I might make an exception and purchase the PPV for the slaughter of a social media "star"! I doubt Tyson, of all people, would restrain himself, am I wrong here:devil:?

Of course, that's assuming the Logans agree. They should know what's likely to happen no worse than you or me, right?
 

Voros

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Not often mentioned when it comes to film swordfights but one of my favourites is the duel at the end of Frears' Dangerous Liasons. I was reminded of this upon a recent rewatch.

 

AsenRG

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I got my first Kimura/Double Wristlock submission on the ground today (I've used it in standing before starting BJJ).
Everybody, including me, commented how fugly my technique* was... but the rule in the gym is "if it works, it works":grin:!

You're very much NOT supposed to even attempt Kimura/Double Wristlock*** from Side Control Bottom:devil:! As my partner said, "I didn't believe that you can lock it - until the last moment"!

***What was the Japanese name, BTW...ude-garami? Fenris-77 Fenris-77 or @anyone?
Not often mentioned when it comes to film swordfights but one of my favourites is the duel at the end of Frears' Dangerous Liasons. I was reminded of this upon a recent rewatch.

I shall rewatch it when I get home.
 

Moracai

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I got my first Kimura/Double Wristlock submission on the ground today (I've used it in standing before starting BJJ).
Everybody, including me, commented how fugly my technique* was... but the rule in the gym is "if it works, it works":grin:!

You're very much NOT supposed to even attempt Kimura/Double Wristlock*** from Side Control Bottom:devil:! As my partner said, "I didn't believe that you can lock it - until the last moment"!i?
Long ago I've once managed to land a double wristlock from top-mount! The instructor didn't see it, so I asked my partner to wait until the instructor saw it. I told him "I've taken both his hands, now what?" He told me "Now take his legs!" :shade:
 

AsenRG

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Long ago I've once managed to land a double wristlock from top-mount! The instructor didn't see it, so I asked my partner to wait until the instructor saw it. I told him "I've taken both his hands, now what?" He told me "Now take his legs!" :shade:
...I guess he was just joking?
I mean, I don't see how you could take anyone's legs from top mount (without losing the position)! And doing so while holding the kimura/doublewristlock...kinda makes me feel not imaginative enough:shock:!

On second thought - you mean a (what is known in BJJ as) Kimura, right? Because that's what I was referring to - it's just called "double wristlock" by catch-as-catch-can practitioners, and I've taken to using the two terms interchangeably. And I guess I could add "gyaku udegarami" to this:tongue:!

Gyaku Ude-garami
And ude-garami is Americana? Makes sense...only in BJJ does anyone make a major difference (as in, giving them unrelated names) between the two:shade:! Everyone else just picks one for a basic and calls the other one "reversed". Double wristlock, reverse double wristlock; udegarami, gyaku/ushiro udegarami...:thumbsup:


BTW, I'm planning to skip the rolling tonight, not in the mood for once...but I'm going to use the time for extra conditioning:devil:!
Or if I get there early, I'll start by joining the yoga class that's using the gym before us, and then I'm going to see how far I'd get in the BJJ class. (I suspect the answer might include the words "passing out from exhaustion", but then I haven't done that in the last 10-15 years...maybe it's time for another go:gunslinger:!)
 

Fenris-77

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I had to look it up actually. Judo doesn't do wrist locks and it's been more than a hot minute since I took or coached anything else.
 

AsenRG

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I had to look it up actually. Judo doesn't do wrist locks and it's been more than a hot minute since I took or coached anything else.
Well, (gyaku-)udegarami isn't a wrist lock, so technically, it should be permitted...whether you're studying it is another matter. IIRC, only wrists and fingers are safe by the rules, right:gunslinger:?
Or did you disallow leglocks and spine/neck cranks as well? I don't remember the judo rules, but then I've only read them once, out of interest...and back then I probably didn't know enough about joint locking techniques to even understand all the implications (it was back when you could grab the legs:evil:). It's been an ongoing study all my life, especially in the last years.

Either way, Kimura/Americana is what we'd call a shoulderlock, because it's locking the shoulderjoint to the point where you can break it...meaning if you push it to the end, you're going to destroy his shoulder. From personal experience, when you feel you have to tap out to one of those, you're feeling like someone is on the way to destroy your shoulder:shade:.

But the term comes from the catch-as-catch-can which generally uses the word "lock" as "you got your hands locked on his (bodypart name), meaning he can't pull it out and you can manipulate it".
Thus, it's "double wristlock" because you've locked both your hands on his wrist:tongue:. Just like a bodylock doesn't mean the spine is locked - you've just got what a judoka would call a good grip on his body!

It's really funny when you're listening to someone using the wrestling terms and another applying the terms from judo/bjj...amusinglynough, it happened on one of our last pre-COVID sessions.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Judo doesn't do shoulder locks either. Just elbows.

I suck at grappling styles but enjoyed Judo the most of all the grappling arts I've tried to learn (I've tried Hapkido, BJJ, Wrestling and Judo and Judo was the most enjoyable for me). But all I was ever really able to pick up from Judo (only did about 6 months) was sweeps and throws (which I found I could incorporate into my other training)
 

BedrockBrendan

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I had to look it up actually. Judo doesn't do wrist locks and it's been more than a hot minute since I took or coached anything else.

I did it very briefly, so I know nothing, but I went to a very traditional school and all I really remember was everything seemed more gross motor than fine motor (which I thought made it better personally but I only managed 6 months before my brain felt too fried by it)
 

Fenris-77

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I did it very briefly, so I know nothing, but I went to a very traditional school and all I really remember was everything seemed more gross motor than fine motor (which I thought made it better personally but I only managed 6 months before my brain felt too fried by it)
IMO good Judo instruction does more fine motor work than a lot of dojos do, especially in terms of grip fighting, both standing and in newaza. Just my two cents. A lot of dojos actually kind of suck at teaching or even focusing on newaza at all actually, a product of the way tournament Judo is scored.
 

BedrockBrendan

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IMO good Judo instruction does more fine motor work than a lot of dojos do, especially in terms of grip fighting, both standing and in newaza. Just my two cents. A lot of dojos actually kind of suck at teaching or even focusing on newaza at all actually, a product of the way tournament Judo is scored.
They may well have done this. Their reputation around here was pretty good (and been a number of different types of martial arts places in the area). I do remember some kind of stuff with grip. I mostly remember the gross motor-work, but it was one of the best Judo places around (unfortunately it has been closed for about ten years now, but the old guy who ran it was very traditional and was super against tournaments). So any failure here was more likely on my end. I am a very terrible grappling student. My background is firmly in striking and I find learning grappling styles feels like learning advanced mathematics for me. But what I was able to get from training in this place was stuff that translated well into things like Sanshou and MMA for me (where I was mostly focusing on sweeps, legs, arms and hips). But again, I was there very briefly. I did about 6 months of Judo and a few months of Kendo to see what it was like. Didn't learn enough to say I know any real judo or can speak to the school's training program.
 

Fenris-77

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They may well have done this. Their reputation around here was pretty good (and been a number of different types of martial arts places in the area). I do remember some kind of stuff with grip. I mostly remember the gross motor-work, but it was one of the best Judo places around (unfortunately it has been closed for about ten years now, but the old guy who ran it was very traditional and was super against tournaments). So any failure here was more likely on my end. I am a very terrible grappling student. My background is firmly in striking and I find learning grappling styles feels like learning advanced mathematics for me. But what I was able to get from training in this place was stuff that translated well into things like Sanshou and MMA for me (where I was mostly focusing on sweeps, legs, arms and hips). But again, I was there very briefly. I did about 6 months of Judo and a few months of Kendo to see what it was like. Didn't learn enough to say I know any real judo or can speak to the school's training program.
Well, to be fair, the fine motor stuff comes later in instruction, the fine motor part needs that base to build on, so it's likely you just weren't there long enough. In a wider kind of way, the gross motor stuff you learn in Judo is the stuff that translates best to mixed practice anyway.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Well, to be fair, the fine motor stuff comes later in instruction, the fine motor part needs that base to build on, so it's likely you just weren't there long enough. In a wider kind of way, the gross motor stuff you learn in Judo is the stuff that translates best to mixed practice anyway.

I will say they must have been doing something right because a lot of that gross motor stuff really stuck and it just part of my natural movement when I spar. I didn't have that experience with the BJJ and wrestling I tried to learn
 

Fenris-77

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I will say they must have been doing something right because a lot of that gross motor stuff really stuck and it just part of my natural movement when I spar. I didn't have that experience with the BJJ and wrestling I tried to learn
BJJ is too focused on newaza to really teach the stuff you learn in Judo. Personally I like the two arts together as Judo doesn't do newaza nearly as wel as BJJ.

Edit: You ca see that pretty clearly in the hunched over stance most BJJ practitioners use when standing and in the enormous tendency to jump guard rather than attempt a throw,
 

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BJJ is too focused on newaza to really teach the stuff you learn in Judo. Personally I like the two arts together as Judo doesn't do newaza nearly as wel as BJJ.

It is definitely an effective style. Nothing but respect for people who can train that stuff to a high level. I think a complete MMA fighter needs both those skill sets. I just learned the longer I trained, I was only really having fun with stuff related to striking. And for me, it was really about doing it for my own enjoyment. I didn't mind some of the grappling in sanshou (being able to body slam people was pretty fun---and not so fun when you are the one being slammed). But I am just better suited to stuff like boxing, TKD, and Kick boxing I think.
 

Fenris-77

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There's a great book called Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu by Dave Camarillo that really digs into how to combine the best of Judo and BJJ.
 

AsenRG

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I don't know about combining them, but I've noticed* most sweeps I've been studying are really throws, just done off your back. Or off your butt, I guess, if we're talking about the butterfly sweep:grin:!
That's probably unsurprising, since there's only so many ways you can apply leverage to another's body. But it raises interesting question about applying kuzushi in newaza:shade:.

Counterpoint to that is the fact that I have yet to find a counterpart throw to the sweep from rubber guard. But then I haven't been actually studying the rubber guard much, and maybe there are throws I simply don't know...



*Might have even posted about it.
 

Moracai

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...I guess he was just joking?
I mean, I don't see how you could take anyone's legs from top mount (without losing the position)! And doing so while holding the kimura/doublewristlock...kinda makes me feel not imaginative enough:shock:!

On second thought - you mean a (what is known in BJJ as) Kimura, right? Because that's what I was referring to - it's just called "double wristlock" by catch-as-catch-can practitioners, and I've taken to using the two terms interchangeably. And I guess I could add "gyaku udegarami" to this:tongue:!
I noticed the subtle difference between a kimura and a basic wristlock after I posted before. And yea, the instructor was joking of course! :grin: I had double wristlocks, but not exactly kimuras. I don't know much about grappling japanese, just basic karate japanese... :closed: Even though I've probably done more JJ than karate.
 

AsenRG

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I noticed the subtle difference between a kimura and a basic wristlock after I posted before. And yea, the instructor was joking of course! :grin: I had double wristlocks, but not exactly kimuras. I don't know much about grappling japanese, just basic karate japanese... :closed: Even though I've probably done more JJ than karate.
OK, that explains it! Though I must note that once you lock some submissions, kimura included, your last step is to apply a leg or body hold with your own legs (to prevent escape and/or tighten the submission). So I was wondering whether he was referring to this, or joking:thumbsup:!


As an additional note, I'm watching Jake Shannon's take on submissions now, and outright loving it. Though I might lose the goodwill of some partners if I applied some of his ideas...:grin:
But his positions are structurally sound, and he uses that to his advantage:devil:.
(Seriously, you literally hear his partner - who is a bigger guy than him - grunting when he puts his weight on him. And you can easily see why - and he's pointing it out. So I'd probably be grunting louder, even though he's not even doing many tricks of the "resting on the point of your elbow" like Sakuraba does!
But then he actually knows this, and one of the first thing he mentions after explaining the positions is "During this presentation, I'm going to be taking my weight off the guy so it's not just a straight hour of grinding this poor guy":skeleton:)!

I also watched Chael Sonnen last night and I found myself agreeing with over 90% of what he had to say (I mostly agree with the rest, but seriously, turning the opponent's head away isn't the cure all he presents it as). Either way, I think I might have a new favourite guard pass now, though I still need to try it...:tongue:
But it is 90% close to what I am doing already when I'm in top guard and I fail to think of a better move! I just need to adjust a knee's position.
So logically, I should be able to drill that quickly and get it to a useful level. Tomorrow's practice should be fun, despite me really not being in the mood for...well, for anything:shade:!
 
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