The Pub: Five Years On and What I’m Thinking…

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
Are you mostly talking about modern settings and things like urban fantasy? If so, I think I can see what you're getting at, although I'm less pessimistic about it than you.

If not, I'm more confused by how politics would creep into something like a review of Maelstrom Rome. (Ok, yeah, ancient politics, but one suspects that's not the kind of contentious politics we need to avoid. Very few people are going to have strong opinions on the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates!)
It will be the game of inches that people are concerned about. A reviewer saying "which I appreciate/don't care for" will be tacked on to something included or excluded. Some will infer more about the reviewers belief and tack that on to any additional comments or information they have about the game/ reviewer. Add in bad faith arguments and reading with hostile intent and you have escalation. If the inches are ignored some will assume it's acceptable and move an inch forward. You allowed X and Y logically follows so why can't I say Y?!?!

That's my observation.
 

JamesV

Legendary Member
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
136
Reaction score
435

Shipyard Locked

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
2,118
Reaction score
3,775
It will be the game of inches that people are concerned about. A reviewer saying "which I appreciate/don't care for" will be tacked on to something included or excluded. Some will infer more about the reviewers belief and tack that on to any additional comments or information they have about the game/ reviewer. Add in bad faith arguments and reading with hostile intent and you have escalation. If the inches are ignored some will assume it's acceptable and move an inch forward. You allowed X and Y logically follows so why can't I say Y?!?!

That's my observation.

Mmm. Goodness knows we've seen some well-worn Trojan horses roll through this forum over the years. I'm glad we've mostly resisted them. Mostly.

In any case, I'll echo CRKrueger CRKrueger: Leave it small, keep it cozy. Something similar to the Law of Fan Jackassery operates in forums like this, and I don't think we could ever get big enough to escape the middle of that baleful curve.
 

CRKrueger

Eläytyminatör
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
13,368
Are you mostly talking about modern settings and things like urban fantasy? If so, I think I can see what you're getting at, although I'm less pessimistic about it than you.

If not, I'm more confused by how politics would creep into something like a review of Maelstrom Rome. (Ok, yeah, ancient politics, but one suspects that's not the kind of contentious politics we need to avoid. Very few people are going to have strong opinions on the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates!)
It will be the game of inches that people are concerned about. A reviewer saying "which I appreciate/don't care for" will be tacked on to something included or excluded. Some will infer more about the reviewers belief and tack that on to any additional comments or information they have about the game/ reviewer. Add in bad faith arguments and reading with hostile intent and you have escalation. If the inches are ignored some will assume it's acceptable and move an inch forward. You allowed X and Y logically follows so why can't I say Y?!?!

That's my observation.
Well, there’s what Bunch is talking about…there’s also games not like Maelstrom Rome that people will…treat as an Inherent Good due to subject matter, and if you criticize the game in any way, you get “How could you? What kind of monster are you?” Etc. ad nauseum. Any mention of execution is treated as an attack on the underlying idea (and a host of unspoken assumptions that swing more extreme).

So if you don’t allow a bubbling and supportive review, then you’re Literally Hitler and Twitter and Tumbler get to shaking with fake, manufactured outrage.

If you do allow the review but then don’t allow discussion of “Isn’t this Politics”, or allow rebuttals to some of the points, then you’re tacitly endorsing the idea and are instead Stalin quashing all dissent.

Yes, at some point, Hitler or Stalin will be your choices. Sorry, that’s life in 2021, once you open the floodgates to the Social Media Sewer. It’ll take a few years, probably, and we’ll have fun along the way.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
7,304
Reaction score
17,170
Are you mostly talking about modern settings and things like urban fantasy? If so, I think I can see what you're getting at, although I'm less pessimistic about it than you.

If not, I'm more confused by how politics would creep into something like a review of Maelstrom Rome. (Ok, yeah, ancient politics, but one suspects that's not the kind of contentious politics we need to avoid. Very few people are going to have strong opinions on the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates!)
I'm building a wall and I'm going to make the Populares pay for it. It'll keep the riff-raff penned up in the Peregrine Quarter and keep the lines for the bath house short. Nothing to get you toga in a knot over.
 

CRKrueger

Eläytyminatör
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
13,368
I'm building a wall and I'm going to make the Populares pay for it. It'll keep the riff-raff penned up in the Peregrine Quarter and keep the lines for the bath house short. Nothing to get you toga in a knot over.
You’ll be opposed of course, by those droll Optimates who make the Plebs believe they are concerned with their interests instead of seizing power. Perhaps we should have some of them removed.
 

CRKrueger

Eläytyminatör
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
13,368
OMG! I generally have to edit like a maniac to get anything worth saying down to 2,000 words.

I can't commit to any sort of regular production, but I have a few pontifications in me. For instance, in August I wrote a chain of posts about making exotic societies interesting for RPG that was well received and could do with fixing into permanent form.

A question: would these articles get edited?
For content or grammar/spelling etc?
 

Luca

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
425
Reaction score
883
(Ok, yeah, ancient politics, but one suspects that's not the kind of contentious politics we need to avoid. Very few people are going to have strong opinions on the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates!)

This is because by now everyone knows the dirty Populares for the filthy trash they are so the proper outcome is not in question anymore!
 

Agemegos

Legendary Member
Joined
May 15, 2021
Messages
428
Reaction score
1,325
If not, I'm more confused by how politics would creep into something like a review of Maelstrom Rome. (Ok, yeah, ancient politics, but one suspects that's not the kind of contentious politics we need to avoid. Very few people are going to have strong opinions on the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates!)
The myth of decadence and calls for national renewal under a strong leader such as Octavian resonate like crazy with contemporary issues, and have done continuously since WWI.
 
Last edited:

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
7,304
Reaction score
17,170
Most sites I've written for a a hidden forum for writers/editors where they can proofread each other's stuff and whatnot. When you get a piece written you submit it and someone else proofs it and gives it the thumbs up. it's not a bad system, but it sometimes be tough to find people who want to edit (or writers who have enough confidence to get edited without losing their nut).
 

David Johansen

Legendary Member
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
4,276
Reaction score
7,470
We, need a really good "YOU'RE AS BAD AS HITLER!!!" Image to randomly apply to threads with nothing to do with politics.
 

Ladybird

TRAHR
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
3,832
Reaction score
9,660
Well, there’s what Bunch is talking about…there’s also games not like Maelstrom Rome that people will…treat as an Inherent Good due to subject matter, and if you criticize the game in any way, you get “How could you? What kind of monster are you?” Etc. ad nauseum. Any mention of execution is treated as an attack on the underlying idea (and a host of unspoken assumptions that swing more extreme).

So if you don’t allow a bubbling and supportive review, then you’re Literally Hitler and Twitter and Tumbler get to shaking with fake, manufactured outrage.

If you do allow the review but then don’t allow discussion of “Isn’t this Politics”, or allow rebuttals to some of the points, then you’re tacitly endorsing the idea and are instead Stalin quashing all dissent.

Yes, at some point, Hitler or Stalin will be your choices. Sorry, that’s life in 2021, once you open the floodgates to the Social Media Sewer. It’ll take a few years, probably, and we’ll have fun along the way.
It goes both ways though. But more importantly... why are we still giving a fuck about what they think?

Purple and Brown have already decided how they feel about us, which is cool, it's their right to do so. Trying to make ourselves and our opinions more palatable to them isn't going to win them over, and is is just going to make us worse at being the site that we are, so why bother? This place was built on getting away from those two and their overwhelming awfulness. Folk who want to wallow in rage and old grudge bullshit have the Site, folk who want to collect rainbow stars have Net, we can't do either of those things as well, so let's keep on being weird and eclectic and chill like we do very well indeed, and folk who don't like it don't have to stay here.

I'm fed up of having to keep on worrying about other people's forum bullshit from a decade ago.
 

Toadmaster

Legendary Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
2,172
Reaction score
4,723
Nah, Hitler's too overused, we need another violent dictator like Pol Pot or Qin Shi Huang.

Exactly my thoughts, like 80% Hitler, 20% Stalin, never a mention of Mussolini, Franco or Tojo let alone Kim Il Sung, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc. Its time for some equality for the maniacal dictators, Hitler has had enough time in the spot light, this GM sucks.

:crossed:
 

Endless Flight

SWO!
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
28,570
I started up a sign up thread for people interested in joining the creator group.

 

chuckdee

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
2,658
Reaction score
4,975
My only concern is the one already mentioned: The Pub is a pretty chill place, and I really enjoy it. As it grows larger, so do moderation concerns, and the inevitability of dicks changing the signal-to-noise ratio with insignificant stuff. I hate when the moderation thread blows up, and would really hate for it to get larger. It also seems like not a huge thing to moderate most of the times, and I'd hate for the load to become more, and even more for it to burn anyone out.

At the risk of sounding tautological, The Pub is what it is because of what it is.

I totally agree with this sentiment, and would hate for the Pub to stop being what it is.

Purple and Brown have already decided how they feel about us, which is cool, it's their right to do so.
This brings up an interesting point- I always hear about purple and brown... but never orange. I know it's the other major forum I daily frequent, and have seen more than a few from this forum on it. Is there just a general neutrality there?
 
Last edited:

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
My only concern is the one already mentioned: The Pub is a pretty chill place, and I really enjoy it. As it grows larger, so do moderation concerns, and the inevitability of dicks changing the signal-to-noise ratio with insignificant stuff. I hate when the moderation thread blows up, and would really hate for it to get larger. It also seems like not a huge thing to moderate most of the times, and I'd hate for the load to become more, and even more for it to burn anyone out.



I totally agree with this sentiment, and would hate for the Pub to stop being what it is.
I'm not entirely sure size is the issue but flow rate could be a big problem. A large influx of active people in a short period of time could quickly cause issues.
 

chuckdee

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
2,658
Reaction score
4,975
I'm not entirely sure size is the issue but flow rate could be a big problem. A large influx of active people in a short period of time could quickly cause issues.
I was concentrating on size because of the fact that it gives us a larger statistical pool to choose from.
 

Black Leaf

We're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,987
Reaction score
13,255
I'm not entirely sure size is the issue but flow rate could be a big problem. A large influx of active people in a short period of time could quickly cause issues.
That's true, but this is no more likely to cause that then something like us being mentioned by a big podcast etc. This strikes me as a bridge to cross if and when necessary.
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
27,826
Reaction score
76,243
I don't think we can hold back The Pub's growth - we're already at close to 2K members - when we started with only a few dozen folks I never thought we'd get to this point. But I think enough of us are committed to keeping The Pub the friendly(ish) place it's been that I'm not worried that any new folks will reshape the culture here - it's very much an "adapt to The Pub or leave" kinda situation. As for moderation - well, right now we're hardly busy at all. I remember once upon a time when it was just Endless and I. I think if we need to expand, it won't be hard to find folks that are on the same wavelength and work together well like we do now.
 

Black Leaf

We're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,987
Reaction score
13,255
Whenever we go over 2000 we could remove someone at random.

(More seriously, I think the "fresh blood who fit in and bring new perspectives" is worth the risk of "people who jar with the forum". In the long term, never getting new people will lead to stagnation, simply because we'll know what each other think on any issue.
 

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
I don't think we can hold back The Pub's growth - we're already at close to 2K members - when we started with only a few dozen folks I never thought we'd get to this point. But I think enough of us are committed to keeping The Pub the friendly(ish) place it's been that I'm not worried that any new folks will reshape the culture here - it's very much an "adapt to The Pub or leave" kinda situation. As for moderation - well, right now we're hardly busy at all. I remember once upon a time when it was just Endless and I. I think if we need to expand, it won't be hard to find folks that are on the same wavelength and work together well like we do now.
I dunno. Have you seen your wavelength??!?!
 

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
Whenever we go over 2000 we could remove someone at random.

(More seriously, I think the "fresh blood who fit in and bring new perspectives" is worth the risk of "people who jar with the forum". In the long term, never getting new people will lead to stagnation, simply because we'll know what each other think on any issue.
Man it's real sad but you had a good run Endless Flight Endless Flight ....
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
7,304
Reaction score
17,170
I guess I better figure out what the heck I might want to write about. :goof:
 

CRKrueger

Eläytyminatör
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
13,368
It goes both ways though. But more importantly... why are we still giving a fuck about what they think?

Purple and Brown have already decided how they feel about us, which is cool, it's their right to do so. Trying to make ourselves and our opinions more palatable to them isn't going to win them over, and is is just going to make us worse at being the site that we are, so why bother? This place was built on getting away from those two and their overwhelming awfulness. Folk who want to wallow in rage and old grudge bullshit have the Site, folk who want to collect rainbow stars have Net, we can't do either of those things as well, so let's keep on being weird and eclectic and chill like we do very well indeed, and folk who don't like it don't have to stay here.

I'm fed up of having to keep on worrying about other people's forum bullshit from a decade ago.
Other forums aren't really a concern, it's the wider reach of social media.
 

Black Leaf

We're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,987
Reaction score
13,255
Other forums aren't really a concern, it's the wider reach of social media.
Tumblr's pretty much a busted flush these days. Facebook is for people to post pictures of their dinners. The only real issue is Twitter, which is a hellsite. But it's also got an attention span of about ten seconds if you just refuse to engage with any attempt to stir up shit. (It's been tried with here at least once previously and went nowhere).
 

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
Other forums aren't really a concern, it's the wider reach of social media.
Yeah I'm only worried what happens here. But so far most people come here after trying the other sites so that's acted as a filter.
 

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
Tumblr's pretty much a busted flush these days. Facebook is for people to post pictures of their dinners. The only real issue is Twitter, which is a hellsite. But it's also got an attention span of about ten seconds if you just refuse to engage with any attempt to stir up shit. (It's been tried with here at least once previously and went nowhere).
Stirring up shit about here on Twitter is pointless. None of us are on it.
 

Black Leaf

We're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,987
Reaction score
13,255
Stirring up shit about here on Twitter is pointless. None of us are on it.
I used to be but I realised I wasn't actually enjoying it anymore so knocked it on the head and deleted my account.
 

Voros

Doomed Investigator
Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
11,954
Reaction score
22,507
Tumblr's pretty much a busted flush these days. Facebook is for people to post pictures of their dinners. The only real issue is Twitter, which is a hellsite. But it's also got an attention span of about ten seconds if you just refuse to engage with any attempt to stir up shit. (It's been tried with here at least once previously and went nowhere).

It's been said before but what the Pub really needs is a OnlyFans account.
 

Bunch

E-Rocker is a goose.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
11,849
Reaction score
22,616
I used to be but I realised I wasn't actually enjoying it anymore so knocked it on the head and deleted my account.
I have an account and have I think since it started but i forget about it all the time. I always thought it was dumb and had no future. I was only half right.
Hey! The shower water was cold!
You have a dirty mind.
 

CRKrueger

Eläytyminatör
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
13,368
My only concern is the one already mentioned: The Pub is a pretty chill place, and I really enjoy it. As it grows larger, so do moderation concerns, and the inevitability of dicks changing the signal-to-noise ratio with insignificant stuff. I hate when the moderation thread blows up, and would really hate for it to get larger. It also seems like not a huge thing to moderate most of the times, and I'd hate for the load to become more, and even more for it to burn anyone out.



I totally agree with this sentiment, and would hate for the Pub to stop being what it is.


This brings up an interesting point- I always hear about purple and brown... but never orange. I know it's the other major forum I daily frequent, and have seen more than a few from this forum on it. Is there just a general neutrality there?
Is Orange ENWorld? The forums are nearly as worthless as Purple, although the politics does tend to stay in the chest thumping threads. Morrus gets props for doing 2000AD and actually publishing a game system and products. Of course if any of the kiddies actually red old 2000ADs, he'd have to stop in a hurry.
 

Black Leaf

We're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks
Moderator
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,987
Reaction score
13,255
I'm sure ENWorld is very useful if you play 5e D&D but I don't, so I'm utterly disinterested in the place. (Similar with Dragonsfoot, just with them it's early D&D instead of modern).
 
Cthulhu Mythos - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Top