The Star Wars Thread

[Endless Flight]

I'm just going to start up a thread for Star Wars news because with Disney owning it, it's going to be dribble dribble for hundreds of years.

So the big news today is that J.J. Abrams is back to direct Episode IX. Lucasfilm recently dumped their first choice, Colin Trevorrow, of Jurassic World fame and were searching for a replacement. They went back to somebody they knew they could work with, as J.J. directed The Force Awakens. Many people love what he did, some people didn't love it. I'm curious to see what he does following up after Rian Johnson and The Last Jedi.

 

[Llew ap Hywel]

Hmm I'm not sure how I feel about that. Loved Force Awakens but feel like JJ is a one trick pony...

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm sure Kathleen Kennedy looked at how well she got along with J.J. as well as the $2B worldwide gross for The Force Awakens and realized it was an easy decision.

 

[Llew ap Hywel]

I'm sure Kathleen Kennedy looked at how well she got along with J.J. as well as the $2B worldwide gross for The Force Awakens and realized it was an easy decision.

Given her apparent issues with EVERYBODY else I think your probably right.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

Star Wars is such a clusterfrak, IMO. In my world, The Christmas Special and Episodes I through III never happened. The Force Awakens felt like a straight up remake of the first Star Wars film. Disney just gender swapped Luke with Rey. Rogue One was okie, but entirely unnecessary and the CGI of General Tarkin and Princess Leia Organa just felt creepy. I just hope that The Last Jedi isn't a straight up remake of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[The Butcher]

I swear I don't usually do this, but...

I hated TFA, I hate Abrams, and I foresee a wreck.

TFA was "Ep. IV remake but BIGGER and AWESOMER and it's okay to have EXTRAORDINARY COINCIDENCES because THE FORCE is a magical field that permeates EVERYTHING and BINDS the Galaxy (and the shitty nonsensical script) and MAKES IT ALL OKAY."

TFA is to Star Wars as Shogun Assassin is to Doctor McNinja. It is the Axe Cop to ANH's Heat.

JJ is a fraud and has been a fraud at least since Lost (didn't see Alias). His Trek reboot is guilty of the cruelest of sins, turning a thoughtful space opera franchise into an average Hollywood action movie franchise with a thin coating of SF.

 

[Endless Flight]

Well, there is the view by many people that Rey is a Mary Sue. She is proficient in many things, especially using certain Force techniques like the mind trick when she really has no business knowing how to do that. I like her character quite a bit though and I'm holding back my judgement about her Sue-ness until I see her backstory fleshed out. I have a feeling she's got some kind of amnesia or memory block going on.

 

[daniel_ream]

Oh, this will end well.

I understand why TFA was what it was. Not a great movie, but I understand it. Honestly, the whole franchise has just kind of gone 'meh' for me. I don't think any of the writers involved really get what made the original trilogy work, except for the crew on the Clone Wars TV show and they're stuck in the prequel era. I think it speaks well of them that they managed to make a damn watchable show out of that mess, although I'm not sure I'd call it Star Wars per se.

 

[Endless Flight]

The Clone Wars ranged from good to excellent in my opinion. The Yoda trilogy at the very end of the run is pure gold.

 

[Stevethulhu]

JJ Abrams, meh. Oooh, a mystery box! Let's keep it's contents a secret for a so long that it can only be a disappointment when it gets revealed! Lens flare! Don't give away important details, they don't matter!

I actually think he's the right man for Star Wars. I mean, if you take the nostalgia goggles off, the OT is crappy. Lame dialog, contrived situations and some serious squick between Luke and Leia. It gets bonus points for being the first, but by modern standards, it got left behind. All he needs is Steven Moffat as his lead writer and there would be a massive nerdgasm across the intertubes, followed by massive nerd rage for all time once people realised they'd been conned watched the Red Letter Media review.

 

[Baulderstone]

Well, there is the view by many people that Rey is a Mary Sue. She is proficient in many things, especially using certain Force techniques like the mind trick when she really has no business knowing how to do that. I like her character quite a bit though and I'm holding back my judgement about her Sue-ness until I see her backstory fleshed out. I have a feeling she's got some kind of amnesia or memory block going on.

Rey seems to be missing the most crucial ingredient in being a Mary Sue, which is to be thinly disguised, super-powered version of the author living out their fantasies. I don't get the impression that Abrams and Kasdan have Rey as their fantasy selves in the same way that Luke was Lucas.

Rey is certainly a character that has far more power than it seems she should though, especially when the sequel is supposed to have her training. What can Luke even teach her?

 

[daniel_ream]

Rey seems to be missing the most crucial ingredient in being a Mary Sue, which is to be thinly disguised, super-powered version of the author living out their fantasies.

That's a fair point, but I think that's more an issue with a hole in the lexicon. We don't have a term of art for a character that is presented as Hyper-Competent and Beloved By All despite being insufferably annoying and not very competent, yet is not an author insert. I've seen the term "Poochie" thrown around, from the Simpsons character, but it doesn't seem to have stuck.

(Examples of this include Lana Lang from Smallville, Felicity from Arrow, Willow from later seasons of Buffy)

 

[daniel_ream]

I have a feeling she's got some kind of amnesia or memory block going on.

According to someone who 1) leaked accurate details of the TFA script before release, and 2) claims to have seen shooting scripts for TLJ, Rey is...the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Allegedly, the following dialog occurs:

REY: Are you. .. my father?
LUKE: No. Rey, you are my father.

I think I'd prefer the midichlorians explanation.

EDIT: Given how hard they were trying to smoosh every Star Wars trope ever into TFA and how the Jedi have morphed from introspective samurai with laser swords to turbocharged wu xia fighters, I'm inclined to believe there's no secret explanation for Rey's power level. It's just dialed up to eleven, like the Suncrusher and Leader Snoak.

 

[Endless Flight]

That would be a groan-inducing reveal. I hope they dumped that script in the garbage.

 

[3rik]

At first I enjoyed TFA, but then after a while I realized I didn't like it all that much. It just wasn't very good.

I thought Rogue One was OK. It gave me some of the original trilogy vibe for some reason.

 

[Baulderstone]

That's a fair point, but I think that's more an issue with a hole in the lexicon. We don't have a term of art for a character that is presented as Hyper-Competent and Beloved By All despite being insufferably annoying and not very competent, yet is not an author insert. I've seen the term "Poochie" thrown around, from the Simpsons character, but it doesn't seem to have stuck.

(Examples of this include Lana Lang from Smallville, Felicity from Arrow, Willow from later seasons of Buffy)

I just hate to see the term Mary Sue misused by gamers. It's actual meaning is very useful in RPG discussion. Understanding what a Mary Sue is helps you understand if the NPC you just made is actually a GMPC.

 

[Endless Flight]

From what I've read, when Lucas sold the company to Disney, he provided a treatment for the sequels. Supposedly his version was going to be about the adventures of Luke's son. Kennedy supposedly wanted a strong female lead. I think she had a lot invested in Rey, so it's partially why I called her a Mary Sue.

 

[Baulderstone]

From what I've read, when Lucas sold the company to Disney, he provided a treatment for the sequels. Supposedly his version of was going to be about the adventures of Luke's son. Kennedy supposedly wanted a strong female lead. I think she had a lot invested in Rey, so it's partially why I called her a Mary Sue.

That's an angle I hadn't considered. That might give her an element of Mary Sue.

 

[daniel_ream]

I don't want to drag this into politics, but there is a character archetype of the Strong Independent Woman Who Don't Need No Man (And Can Beat Up All Of Them, Besides)[1] that isn't an author self-insert, but rather an attempt to pander to a (presumably) female audience. Just because a female director or showrunner is invested in having a suspiciously hyper-competent female protagonist doesn't mean the protagonist in question is necessarily an author insert; male showrunners/directors do this too.

I don't think Rey is an author insert because outside of her overpowered Jedi abilities, she's a cipher. She has no real character or defining personality traits. If she is a Mary Sue, she's a Mary Sue for the most boring writer/director/executive producer ever.

[1] I call them Annie Oakleys, but nobody gets the reference.

I thought Rogue One was OK. It gave me some of the original trilogy vibe for some reason.

Probably set, mechanical and prop design. They put a lot of effort into making the visuals congruent with Episode IV. I can't talk about what I disliked about R1 without breaking the no-politics rules, so I won't. I will say that it's clear that what Disney is doing with Star Wars is the same thing they're doing with the MCU: they're breaking Star Wars down into its constituent inspirational genres and making movies in each of those genres. TFA was Flash Gordon, R1 was WWII, Han Solo and Boba Fett will be the Westerns. I think they've largely forgotten about the Kurosawa. I'm not going to say "only time will tell if this is a good idea", because the Star Wars license is a free pass to print money. I think that what makes Star Wars great is its fusion of so many disparate genres into something unique, though, and that the quality of the films will suffer.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Probably set, mechanical and prop design. They put a lot of effort into making the visuals congruent with Episode IV. I can't talk about what I disliked about R1 without breaking the no-politics rules, so I won't. I will say that it's clear that what Disney is doing with Star Wars is the same thing they're doing with the MCU: they're breaking Star Wars down into its constituent inspirational genres and making movies in each of those genres. TFA was Flash Gordon, R1 was WWII, Han Solo and Boba Fett will be the Westerns. I think they've largely forgotten about the Kurosawa. I'm not going to say "only time will tell if this is a good idea", because the Star Wars license is a free pass to print money. I think that what makes Star Wars great is its fusion of so many disparate genres into something unique, though, and that the quality of the films will suffer.

There's an Obi-Wan movie in the pipeline.That's going to be your samurai drama/chanbara.

 

[Endless Flight]

I have very mild interest in the Han Solo movie. I'm really only intrigued to see what Donald Glover can do as Lando, one of my favorite characters in the saga. I am very excited to see Ewan again if he does the Obi-Wan movie, which I firmly believe he will. They have no reason to cast anyone else.

 

[Baulderstone]

There's an Obi-Wan movie in the pipeline.That's going to be your samurai drama/chanbara.

I'm a little conflicted on the slate of "non-episode" movies so far. The original pitch from Disney was that we would get a Saga movie one year, alternated with other movies that would expand the Star Wars Universe. So far, we have one movie that was a tight prequel to Star Wars, the next movie is Ron Howard filling in the backstory of Han Solo, and next, we get more backstory on Obi-Wan.

Ultimately, I don't care if the movies are good, and I would really love for Ewan MacGregor to get a shot at a good Star Wars movie, but at the moment, they seem more intent on filling in the margins than expanding the universe with these movies.

 

[Endless Flight]

I heard that after Episode IX is released there will not be any more episodes for at least six years, maybe more. They will continue to do the anthology movies until the next trilogy. That might give them some more time to expand the galaxy a bit because it seems very small at times.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Ultimately, I don't care if the movies are good, and I would really love for Ewan MacGregor to get a shot at a good Star Wars movie, but at the moment, they seem more intent on filling in the margins than expanding the universe with these movies.

The problem with Star Wars is, people want more of the same, but different. And that means that outright new stories are incredibly hard to fit in. Coupled with an apparent lack of trust for new talent, this is going to make Star Wars going forwards into a progressively harder and harder thing for Disney to make.

 

[3rik]

Episodes 1-3 didn't turn out very well, but I still like the idea of prequels or spin-offs better than sequels. For me, episode 6 is when the Empire is beaten, period. We get the original ewok song and that's the end of the saga. I don't really need anything after that. I also don't feel the need to go way back before Episode 4.

I'd be interested in knowing a little more about Sy Snootles & the Rebo Band, the original one of course. Wouldn't that make for a fun spin-off!

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm pretty sure the Obi-Wan movie is taking place sometime between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope. That's the best place for it anyway. The only real restriction I can see is being confined to Tatooine. From everything I seen of Kenobi, he never took his eyes off of Luke.

 

[daniel_ream]

That might give them some more time to expand the galaxy a bit because it seems very small at times.

The Star Wars galaxy has always been very small. Star Wars is fundamentally about the adventures of a small family (and if you take the Machete Order, it's really about one guy). Most cinematic or TV SF franchises aren't about worldbuilding in the Tolkien sense at all. It seems odd to me to expect it.

 

[Endless Flight]

The Star Wars galaxy has always been very small. Star Wars is fundamentally about the adventures of a small family (and if you take the Machete Order, it's really about one guy). Most cinematic or TV SF franchises aren't about worldbuilding in the Tolkien sense at all. It seems odd to me to expect it.

Lucas shrank it farther than it needed to be. I'll give a perfect example. Anakin builds C3P0 out of old protocol droid parts. Why did Anakin have to build him? There's no story purpose there. For good measure, he even stuffs R2D2 into the prequel trilogy. It raises more questions than it answers and, as an example, you get fanboys asking why Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't remember the droids when he sees him in A New Hope.

 

[daniel_ream]

Pretty much all the decisions Lucas made for the prequels (and to a lesser extent RotJ) were based on marketing and merchandise sales, full stop. But you're missing my point. Films and TV series are about characters, not worldbuilding. They have to have relatable actors doing things that make them sympathetic to the audience. Worldbuilding isn't secondary; it's not even a consideration.

you get fanboys asking why Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't remember the droids when he sees him in A New Hope.

Fanboys need to take some dopamine to settle their amygdala and pay attention to the actual script.

I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid.

Which is 100% true - Obi-Wan has never owned a droid. And we know Obi-Wan lies like a rug and uses sophistry to excuse it anyway.

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm not really interested in world building, but I am interested in new characters. I enjoyed Rogue One for the characters more than anything else. Rey is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars saga, and I really wasn't too big of a fan of the world building they did in Awakens. When I talk about the anthologies expanding the universe, I am referring the new characters.

 

[daniel_ream]

I'm not really interested in world building, but I am interested in new characters.

Fair enough, but recognize that's the exact opposite of what works for a cinematic[1] franchise. One of the weaknesses of TFA is all the new characters that were introduced; there's a limited screen time budget to do character development, and when you spread it across too many characters you get shallow characters the audience can't develop an emotional bond with.

By contrast, Rogue One sticks to only three or four characters and is a better movie for it (although it, too, spreads its screen budget thinner than it needed to).


[1] When I say "cinematic" I'm including TV, because I don't feel like typing "and long-form television" all the time

 

[Baulderstone]

Lucas shrank it farther than it needed to be. I'll give a perfect example. Anakin builds C3P0 out of old protocol droid parts. Why did Anakin have to build him? There's no story purpose there. For good measure, he even stuffs R2D2 into the prequel trilogy. It raises more questions than it answers and, as an example, you get fanboys asking why Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't remember the droids when he sees him in A New Hope.

It was done so lazily as well. Even a moment's thought suggests that it would have made more sense to have the kid who wants to be a pilot build an astromech droid, while the retinue of the princess has the protocol droid.

 

[TristramEvans]

I was once a huge Star Wars fan. I loved it with the burning passion of a thousand stars that all at once screamed out.

But then came the dark times. Then came the "special editions". I know many people point to the Prequels of the nadir of the franchise, but for me it was the special editions that killed my childhood love. Suddenly, I was no longer a fan. It was an odd feeling, something that once gave me love, fueled such passion in me, suddenly elicited nothing from me. Like running into an old girlfriend you once loved passionately, who had broken your heart and it had taken forever just to stop thinking of her every minute of every day, and then talking to her and realizing, suddenly, oddly, that you had no feelings for her anymore. That whatever fired had burned in that time was long since extinguished.

I still feel traces of it from time to time. The special edition re-release of WEG's Star Wars RPG caused a sudden spark of nostalgia. But it was momentary and fleeting, a memory of an emotion rather than the emotion itself. I greet news of Star Wars film with the same apathy
I do the announcement of a pop singer's concert in my town. These films now belong to an audience I'm no longer a part of. I'm an outsider, with not even enough love left over to bother hating them.

But...this, this I like...

 

[soltakss]

I am sure they will look prety, will be full of action, will make several bucketloads of money and will annoy/please most of the Star Wars fans.

Until they stop making money, they will continue to be made and we will continue to watch them.

 

[TristramEvans]

Just watched this rather interesting video on the Star Wars that might have been, created in 1985 not by Lucasfilm but by Kenner, as an attempt to keep the toyline going...

I have to say, there's a lot there I like. The resurrection of Tarkin, the take on the Clone Wars, etc.

 

[Endless Flight]

I read yesterday that there is this rumor that Darth Vader might show up in the Han Solo anthology. I looked into it some more and it appears to be a legit thing. Somebody on another forum said what I thought about this possibility better than I ever could:

From the looks of it, they probably think they have to insert their bread and butter to get people to go see it and that is unfortunate.

 

[Necrozius]

SO I saw the French title for The Last Jedi. It reveals whether "Jedi" is used in singular or plural.

SPOILER BELOW

"Les Derniers Jedi" ... PLURAL.

That is all.

 

[Endless Flight]

Yoda told Luke in Return of the Jedi as he was dying "when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." Of course, Ben Solo was an apprentice as well as the other students Luke was training but probably never a Jedi Knight. As far as I can tell, as of The Force Awakens, Luke is still the only Jedi in the galaxy, which is why Snoke wants him snuffed. Just a gut feeling, but I think that the old Jedi doctrine isn't going to cut it when it comes to balancing the Force and a new method may be required, which is why Luke sought out the first Jedi temple. He was probably investigating what had changed over the millennium since the Order was founded. Rey might be taught things that would have been considered taboo by the Jedi order, and maybe this truly means that Luke is the last Jedi. I also think Yoda, Obi-Wan and maybe even Anakin will show up to argue or debate these things with Luke, because there is a quote where Luke says "it is time for the Jedi to end." We have no idea who he is saying that to, but it could be to his old masters.

 

[Baulderstone]

Yoda told Luke in Return of the Jedi as he was dying "when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

It is a bit of an ambiguous statement. You could read it as prophecy, that Luke will the last ever Jedi. You can also read it as a statement of the current situation. Luke will be the last Jedi left around.

I lean towards the second, non-prophetic reading. If Yoda was making a prediction that Luke would be the last Jedi ever, it wouldn't need to be qualified by "When gone am I..." Yoda is describing a condition that won't kick in until he is dead. If Luke was destined to be the last ever Jedi, then that destiny would be on him even before Yoda was dead.

My feeling is that Yoda is acknowledging that when he is dead, the backup plan of training Leia if Luke fails is no longer an option. He won't be around to do that anymore.

Granted, this is all based on parsing Yoda-speak, so I could easily be getting it wrong.

 

[Endless Flight]

It is a bit of an ambiguous statement. You could read it as prophecy, that Luke will the last ever Jedi. You can also read it as a statement of the current situation. Luke will be the last Jedi left around.

I lean towards the second, non-prophetic reading. If Yoda was making a prediction that Luke would be the last Jedi ever, it wouldn't need to be qualified by "When gone am I..." Yoda is describing a condition that won't kick in until he is dead. If Luke was destined to be the last ever Jedi, then that destiny would be on him even before Yoda was dead.

My feeling is that Yoda is acknowledging that when he is dead, the backup plan of training Leia if Luke fails is no longer an option. He won't be around to do that anymore.

Granted, this is all based on parsing Yoda-speak, so I could easily be getting it wrong.

I can't disagree with anything you said. There's a new book of Star Wars short stories that was just published, and it one of them Obi-Wan comes to Yoda in ghost form and asks him to train somebody. I don't want to spoil it for anyone here, but it's surprising what Yoda says.

I did a little more checking, and if you look at the opening scroll for The Force Awakens, it says that Luke is the last Jedi. It's pretty blatant really.