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Do people really hate the the Last Jedi because of the Holdo maneuver or do they hate the the Holdo Maneuver because they hate the Last Jedi?
Hah hah I had forgotten all about the Holdo Maneuver when I made my post but now that I remember, that was pretty stupid too. Again, it's technology that completely changes how the universe works. Everyone and their dog would slap some hyperdrive engines on asteroids and use droids to pilot this ridiculously cheap and effective weapon system.
 
Hyperspace is completely made-up non-science. I haven't seen anything in any SW film that establishes any physical laws around it other than zoooooooommmmm.

This is what I find goofy, talking about consistency by trying to apply rudimentry scientific or more often pseudo-scientific analysis to something that is a scientific absurdity to begin with.

That's different than the 'dragons in fantasy' argument although I do think far too many people argue for a rationalized approach to fantasy worlds which gets overapplied to all fantasy.
 
Do people really hate the the Last Jedi because of the Holdo maneuver or do they hate the the Holdo Maneuver because they hate the Last Jedi?

I don't just hate it for that, I hate it for lots of other things too but that one is the biggest. Others are Luke not being Luke and an attempted murderer, the fact Finn just became a joke character, the boring s-l-o-w space chase, the silly stuff like Kylo being ordered back from attacking because the big ships "couldn't support him" (again changing previously ways battles happened in films - ie, TIEs were fine attacking other ships at range). There's loads of stuff in there that I hated for lore reasons, character reasons, messing around with previous content, etc. However... I don't think TLJ is a terrible space-fantasy film, put it in its own setting, change the characters etc and it'd be okay, I just think it's an appallingly bad Star Wars film. It was the reason I didn't watch Solo or Rise of Skywalker at the cinema (in hindsight, that was a good thing) and why I won't subscribe to Disney channel.
 
Hyperspace is completely made-up non-science. I haven't seen anything in any SW film that establishes any physical laws around it other than zoooooooommmmm.

This is what I find goofy, talking about consistency by trying to apply of rudimentry scientific or more often pseudo-scientific analysis to something that is a scientific absurdity to begin with.

That's different than the 'dragons in fantasy' argument although I do think far too many people argue for a rationalized approach to fantasy worlds being overapplied.

... You've sorta missed what's being said. It doesn't really matter how it works, at least before TLJ, it's the fact it's now been used in this way so why wasn't it used in that way before. By doing the Holdo-maneuver Ruin Johnson is basically tying down how it works where previously it didn't need to be explained because all hyperspace was used for was for 'getting around quickly'. Johnson turned it into something more, explained how it works, and that's why people now say, "... that doesn't hold together anymore. You've now used it in such a way that fucks up all the other films. Well done you fucking moron!". He created this issue, where previously there wasn't one because using hyperspace was something that was just used for transport; that's why it was such a hack thing to do and an awful piece of writing.
 
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Do people really hate the the Last Jedi because of the Holdo maneuver or do they hate the the Holdo Maneuver because they hate the Last Jedi?
For me, that one is just one more nail in the coffin. However, I don't see the Holdo maneuver to be any worse than a lot of things in The Force Awakens (going to hyperspace from inside another ship for example, which also directly contradicts the Holdo maneuver in itself).

TFA is the only one of the Sequels I can stand and actually want to re-watch at times (just as Alien III). I just have to ignore it is in the same universe as the other movies. However, half of my positive attitudes to TFA can be purely nostalgia, as it was the only movie not dubbed when I was in Colombia over the holidays that year. Cheap tickets, air condition, a nice seat... oh, and there's a movie playing at the same time. I even watched it a few times in Spanish, without understanding Spanish. :tongue:
 
Do people really hate the the Last Jedi because of the Holdo maneuver or do they hate the the Holdo Maneuver because they hate the Last Jedi?
As I said the Holdo maneuver is just lifted out of Star Crash, please watch that B movie masterpiece before bashing on that brilliant strategy :hehe:
 
As I said the Holdo maneuver is just lifted out of Star Crash, please watch that B movie masterpiece before bashing on that brilliant strategy :hehe:

I'm sure I've seen Star Crash but it's so unmemorable that I can't visualise anything about it.
 
Exactly. I don't look for realism but something has to adhere to it's own internal logic or it just becomes lolrandom nonsense for me and I quickly lose interest. The Last Jedi was so fucking stupid I was actually kinda pissed after watching it and I am the furthest thing from a Star Wars superfan; I felt like the writers insulted my intelligence by casually introducing universe-breaking technology simply to give Rose and Finn something to do for two hours.

Edit: To be clear, I greatly enjoy surrealistic shows like Twin Peaks or The Prisoner but even they follow their own internal logic.
Well Twin Peaks and Fire Walk With Me did before Lynch gave us the middle finger with the latest season :brokenheart:
 
As I said the Holdo maneuver is just lifted out of Star Crash, please watch that B movie masterpiece before bashing on that brilliant strategy :hehe:

Its fine in another film; it's not about what it is, it's about the internal consistency. If that other film historically has it as a 'thing' or by doing it doesn't fuck up previous films then it's cool.
 
Its fine in another film; it's not about what it is, it's about the internal consistency. If that other film historically has it as a 'thing' or by doing it doesn't fuck up previous films then it's cool.
I’m with you, my Star Wars canon is the OT, the Holiday Special and the two Ewok movies. I can handle adding in some of the WEG d6 stuff, still my favorite SW RPG, and a handful of the early novels but they aren’t essential.
 
Even less memorable is that it apparently had The Hoff in it and I still can't remember a thing about it.
Also Joe Spinell, Christopher Plummer, and Marjoe Gortner! Marjoe isn’t a great actor although Bobbie Joe and the Outlaw (Lynda Carter’s only topless appearance, it’s a 1970’s take on Bonnie and Clyde) is fun, When You Comin’ Back, Red Ryder? Is classic American exploitation/Drive In “shock” shlock, and the biography of his life (he was ordained at 4 years old!!) called Marjoe for a one of the early, really honest and super interesting documentaries about the scandals and abuses of some Pentecostal preachers in the US.
 
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Perhaps you are just too young to remember, check out Dracula AD 1972, The Golden Voyage of Sinbad, Captain Kronos Vampire Hunter, The Spy Who Loved Me, and the amazing Maniac with Joe Spinell to name a few of her movies.

She should certainly be memorable, although I would have been about 7 or 8 years old when I saw either Star Crash or The Spy Who Loved Me. I may have seen The Golden Voyage of Sinbad re-run on TV at some point. Which was the one where Tom Baker played the baddie?
 
She should certainly be memorable, although I would have been about 7 or 8 years old when I saw either Star Crash or The Spy Who Loved Me. I may have seen The Golden Voyage of Sinbad re-run on TV at some point. Which was the one where Tom Baker played the baddie?
That’s the one with Tom Baker, The Golden Voyage of Sinbad.
 
For me, that one is just one more nail in the coffin. However, I don't see the Holdo maneuver to be any worse than a lot of things in The Force Awakens (going to hyperspace from inside another ship for example, which also directly contradicts the Holdo maneuver in itself).

I seem to recall the Falcon was pointed at the docking bay exit in TFA so went to lightspeed but did so through the exit, not the actual ship it was inside? Only watched it twice though so may be misremembering. If so, its goofy but... okay. Only just though and only because it was Solo doing it. I'm not a fan of TFA though, either; other stuff in it was a real miss for me.
 
I seem to recall the Falcon was pointed at the docking bay exit in TFA so went to lightspeed but did so through the exit, not the actual ship it was inside? Only watched it twice though so may be misremembering. If so, its goofy but... okay. Only just though and only because it was Solo doing it. I'm not a fan of TFA though, either; other stuff in it was a real miss for me.
I need to watch it again to be sure myself. But no one ever tried and figured out during the ten thousand years of hyperspace travel? :clown:

Then they they jumped through the the planetary shield on Starkiller Base. Being able to exit hyperspace between the shield and the planet. Waiting in Hyperspace on a signal to jump out and attack. That's just a few of them, and it's still the least canon breaking one of the sequels :tongue:
 
I need to watch it again to be sure myself. But no one ever tried and figured out during the ten thousand years of hyperspace travel? :clown:

Then they they jumped through the the planetary shield on Starkiller Base. Being able to exit hyperspace between the shield and the planet. Waiting in Hyperspace on a signal to jump out and attack. That's just a few of them, and it's still the least canon breaking one of the sequels :tongue:

Yeah, the sequels were bollocks, pretty much. I just try and ignore them. Only good thing in my opinion about them is they make the OT even better and the PT actually half decent! Otherwise, they're just trash. Even the fan edits I have can't save TLJ and RoS.
 
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Hyperspace is completely made-up non-science. I haven't seen anything in any SW film that establishes any physical laws around it other than zoooooooommmmm.

This is what I find goofy, talking about consistency by trying to apply rudimentry scientific or more often pseudo-scientific analysis to something that is a scientific absurdity to begin with.

That's different than the 'dragons in fantasy' argument although I do think far too many people argue for a rationalized approach to fantasy worlds which gets overapplied to all fantasy.
So anything goes for you? It doesn't have to make any sense and you'll still accept any entertainment property? Man, I sincerely wish I could let my suspenders of disbelief flap that freely. I honestly do. But I, like most of humanity, need internal consistency in my settings.
Do people really hate the the Last Jedi because of the Holdo maneuver or do they hate the the Holdo Maneuver because they hate the Last Jedi?
I dipped out long before then. I don't hate The Last Jedi because of the Holdo Maneuver. I hate it because of what it did to the characters, it turned Finn into a comedy relief character, Luke is now an attempted murderer and alien molester.

I hate the Holdo Maneuver as a separate entity because of what the implications.

But hey! Who cares! Nothing matters! Let them throw asteroids at hyperlight speeds in the middle of space battles. It's a stupid, silly property that means nothing as long as they're pew pews in space, light swords, space wizards and the required Wilhelm scream!

Definitely doesn't deserve to have lasted forty years.
 
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I reckon a LONE WOLF KENOBI or OBI-WAN MCQUADE series would have worked! :grin:
See, this? This is the sort of malicious gaslighting that pisses fans off. And we all know why Disney/Lucasfilm does it, to deflect from their own bad writing.

Obi-Wan can't use the force, has problems except when he has to hold back literal tens of thousands of tonnes of water pressure, and does it if it's natural, not that he's been struggling to do so for the last couple of minutes.

Oh, here's some images!
FU_DRkSUUAIJr3s

FVT3iKIXEAQPGE6

This is what the fans are actually complaining about.

Inconsistency within the same episode, badly written motivations... Oh, and here's a banger:

FVd8xRTXoAAE5Hq

And Lucasfilm has the balls to lie about the reason why people are not happy with the butchery.
 

What a complete and utter load of bollocks that is! Kenobi suffering PTSD is just not an issue; there's countless other things that are the focus of those critiquing the show - some I agree on, some I don't.

Episode 5 was fucking stupid too... all the stuff around the 'hidden' second transport. They had two vessels and they knew they did. Kenobi could have taken one, the other could have been used to evacuate the rest of the people. Instead they hung around... 'because'. It's a joke of a show and the writers yet again demonstrate they don't have a clue even on basic stuff like this.
 
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It's a stupid, silly property that means nothing as long as they're pew pews in space, light swords, space wizards and the required Wilhelm scream!
I mean, yeah, that's pretty much the ur-description of Star Wars, OT included.
 
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