The Star Wars Thread

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Fenris-77 said:
There is modern SW that I like, but not the prequels, and mostly not the sequels. Rogue One I thought was fantastic if that helps people track where I'm at.
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It was good. It’s certainly not the best Disney material.
 
Everyone loves that Mark Hamill Tosche station picture, but few of them notice what he's wearing.
 
Fenris-77 said:
George Lucas cannot write dialogue. At All. Ever. He should be smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper if he even thinks about it.
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To be fair Lucas himself doesn't care for his own dialogue writing. For his early films (THX 1138 & American Graffiti) he would shoot his actors at a distance and allow them to improvise using the written dialogue as a guide. Both of those films have much stronger dialogue than SW.

For SW he couldn't shoot that way because of the expense of shooting that kind of big budget, effects-heavy film. Shooting SW was such a bad experience for Lucas I suspect that's why he didn't direct Empire or Return.

I would assume the prequels were similarly too expensive to shoot in the style he actually prefers.
 
Voros said:
To be fair Lucas himself doesn't care for his own dialogue writing. For his early films (THX 1138 & American Graffiti) he would shoot his actors at a distance and allow them to improvise using the written dialogue as a guide. Both of those films have much stronger dialogue than SW.

For SW he couldn't shoot that way because of the expense of shooting that kind of big budget, effects-heavy film. Shooting SW was such a bad experience for Lucas I suspect that's why he didn't direct Empire or Return.

I would assume the prequels were similarly too expensive to shoot in the style he actually prefers.
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He also was willing to work with other screenwriters and directors on the original trilogy to cover his own weaknesses. If he knew he was a bad dialogue writer, then there really isn't any excuse given that he could have hired just about anybody in Hollywood at the time to punch up the screenplay.
 
Self Saboteur said:
I really disliked the fight between Ben and Anakin. Something I was looking forward to. It could’ve been an amazing sequence but they wound up swinging on ropes.
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I loved it personally. The only thing that could make lightsaber dueling better was a complete redo of it, which they won't do because of what the audience expects. I wish they'd treat them like what they are rather than swords and then completely butcher swordsmanship principles.





 
Self Saboteur said:
A force push right there could’ve saved the galaxy a lot of trouble. Not even a push, just a tap. If only Chubbs was Bens mentor.
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He could've just kicked him in too. My guess is that Obi Wan was too lazy to use the force and didn't want to get BBQd long pig on his shoes.
 
Self Saboteur said:
A force push right there could’ve saved the galaxy a lot of trouble. Not even a push, just a tap. If only Chubbs was Bens mentor.
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Maybe, but between botching the recovery of the Death Star plans and getting distracted from mopping up the remnants of the Rebellion after the Battle of Hoth by chasing his son, Vader was kind of a liability. And, let's not forget, he's the guy that kills the Emperor. He might have had a more competent and reliable righthand man if Obi-Wan killed Anakin.
 
Palpatine didn’t really want to go along with the Sith philosophy of the apprentice becoming more powerful than the master and killing him to take his place. Vader was seen as somebody he could easily manipulate for his purposes. There was also fatal flaws in Vader regarding being a Sith that would surface later.
 
Endless Flight said:
Palpatine didn’t really want to go along with the Sith philosophy of the apprentice becoming more powerful than the master and killing him to take his place.
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Who would want to go along with that? It was one of the dumber ideas in the prequels. If Palpatine wanted to break with the nonsensical tradition, why take an apprentice at all, especially one that was particularly strong in the Force?
 
Baulderstone said:
Who would want to go along with that? It was one of the dumber ideas in the prequels. If Palpatine wanted to break with the nonsensical tradition, why take an apprentice at all, especially one that was particularly strong in the Force?
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Palpatine still followed the Rule of Two. He needed an enforcer, which Vader was very good at. Anything less than having another Sith Lord wouldn’t do. A thousand years prior, the Sith were like the Jedi, but infighting and wars decimated their numbers and they accomplished little.

Darth Bane instituted the rule to better achieve their goals of galactic domination, with its culmination being Palpatine. I think he expected Vader to be more powerful than himself but his defeat on Mustafar and the mental roadblocks changed Palpatine’s mind, which is why he went after Luke as soon as possible.

The reason Palpatine probably changed his mind about sticking around and not dying was when the Kaminoans discovered how to clone and do it effectively. It opened a path to immortality for the Sith who didn’t believe in a life after death. He could cheat the natural order and insert his spirit into a new body.
 
I tried to read the Darth Bane books, but I ended up returning the first one, I just couldn't buy into the concept.

The Rule of Two always struck me as a fairy tale the Jedi told themselves to probably make fun of the Sith in the beginning, though they appear to have forgotten it was joke and it's part of what blinds them to all the Sith around them. After all, if there are only two around at a time, the odds are astronomically low that any Jedi would ever run into one and it becomes a comforting lie (and a smug way to say "look at those stupid Sith limiting themselves to two, when we recruit so many")

As for the Sith, I'm sure it was a joke. There is no way that an organization bent on power and ambition is going to limit itself like that. And they didn't, there is no time when there are only 2 Sith running around*, even though I can see them not grouping up more than a couple in a group at a time since even if you are an alien you can only keep so many eyes on power hungry allies (at least as the Sith are presented). Also there is no way to enforce it. At a minimum we had Palapatine, Jar Jar**, Maul, Dooku, and Ventress (Starkiller and later the Sith Inquisitors... do they not count because of some no true Scotsman rule...). The very idea was at best a joke and at worst, a quick way to end up wiping out your entire tradition in one ship accident.

I think at this point there are probably more versions of the Star Wars universe than there are fans (I'm sure some fans have two or more mutually exclusive ideas of what makes sense) so if the Rule of Two works for you, I support you, I just don't agree with you.

*I have no doubt that I may be technically wrong at some split second of on-screen time, but there is no chance that in the universe presented there aren't other Sith roaming around.
**Darth Jar Jar is 100% canon to me, there is no way someone can be that incompetent except on purpose. It's nice they have kind of leaned into it even if it wasn't originally a concept.

 
Well, sure you could have two Sith and a bunch of Inquisitors running around. But they don’t get the Darth title. Sidious wanted Luke to join him and Vader. It would have worked for a couple of minutes. Then Luke would have killed his father and became Darth Cestuous.
 
Endless Flight said:
Well, sure you could have two Sith and a bunch of Inquisitors running around. But they don’t get the Darth title. Sidious wanted Luke to join him and Vader. It would have worked for a couple of minutes. Then Luke would have killed his father and became Darth Cestuous.
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Exactly. You can have dark side users that are not sith.
 
"What's with all the Sith, I thought there were only ever two" said the Jedi interrogator after a battle with a hundred "Sith".

"Oh, there were only two of those crazies, it took only a couple seconds to deal with them and their pretentions." - Captured Sith

Sure there are other Dark siders, I love the Dathomirians,
especially since Cal Kestis seems to be intimate with one, while Ahsoka seems to have them be antagonistic with the Jedi even though Thrawns old boss is responsible for their near annihilation
though no doubt they aren't typically very nice and aren't likely to appreciate any side telling them what to do. Nonetheless, "two Sith" is right up there with "Jedi don't have serious relationships."


Endless Flight said:
...Then Luke would have killed his father and became Darth Cestuous.
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That about killed me. I think the nonexistent sequels could have been made existent* if Rey had been the granddaughter of Luke and Leia** from the tryst they had before they knew about their parentage, thus explaining why she was cast off into nowheresville thanks to Leia wanting a political career. I mean what do young people do when they aren't off rebelling or I guess one of the MANY ways they DO rebel.

*That would have required a plan first, but hey, I know what my future headcanon is, and yeah, I can probably blame it on Game of Thrones.
**Though Kenobi and Satine could have worked too and be a lot more palatable.
 
Baulderstone said:
He also was willing to work with other screenwriters and directors on the original trilogy to cover his own weaknesses. If he knew he was a bad dialogue writer, then there really isn't any excuse given that he could have hired just about anybody in Hollywood at the time to punch up the screenplay.
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True, THX 1138 he worked with Murch on the script (as well as the excellent sound design) and for America Graffiti with Gatz/Huyck (who also wrote and directed the 70s horror classic Messiah of Evl and...Howard the Duck?!).
 
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Endless Flight said:
Palpatine still followed the Rule of Two. He needed an enforcer, which Vader was very good at. Anything less than having another Sith Lord wouldn’t do. A thousand years prior, the Sith were like the Jedi, but infighting and wars decimated their numbers and they accomplished little.

Darth Bane instituted the rule to better achieve their goals of galactic domination, with its culmination being Palpatine. I think he expected Vader to be more powerful than himself but his defeat on Mustafar and the mental roadblocks changed Palpatine’s mind, which is why he went after Luke as soon as possible.

The reason Palpatine probably changed his mind about sticking around and not dying was when the Kaminoans discovered how to clone and do it effectively. It opened a path to immortality for the Sith who didn’t believe in a life after death. He could cheat the natural order and insert his spirit into a new body.
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Darth Bane's appearance in Season 6 of Clone Wars, during Yoda's Walkabout, was awesome.
 
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i really wish they'd kept Rey as nobody from nowhere. I wish she'd become like Clint Eastwood's man with no name. A mysterious stranger who wanders into town, kills half of everyone and wanders off again.

I expect between Disney's lack of creativity and the current multiverse fad, we'll be getting Into the Spiderverse style crossovers with the old extended universe any day now.
 
David Johansen said:
i really wish they'd kept Rey as nobody from nowhere. I wish she'd become like Clint Eastwood's man with no name. A mysterious stranger who wanders into town, kills half of everyone and wanders off again.
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While I agree 100% you have to admit that grandpa Palpatine is a hilarious concept.
 
Giganotosaurus said:
While I agree 100% you have to admit that grandpa Palpatine is a hilarious concept.
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Or potentially an interesting one from a dramatic perspective. I've already stated that I fundamentally hate the idea of bringing Palpatine back, but putting that aside, think of all the interesting things you could do with Rey being the Emperor's granddaughter. The original trilogy made Darth Vader being Luke's father into something powerful, and Rise of Skywalker used Palpatine being Rey's grandfather for a boss fight. Even beyond any relationship between them, she's the literal heir to the Empire. That opens up all kinds of possibilities like misguided Republic supporters wanting her dead for fear she will be used to restore the Empire.

Of course, you can only get those stories when you plan out your plots more than one scene ahead, something Disney is incapable of.
 
Baulderstone said:
Of course, you can only get those stories when you plan out your plots more than one scene ahead, something Disney is incapable of.
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I think its more that they can't clone Feige and Kennedy isn't a good facsimile. They need to give someone control and doing that with such a big property is counter to bean counter and power broker instincts- they have to meddle.

MCU wasn't that big originally and was a gamble so Feige had control. As it became bigger people tried to erode that control and you see it in the output. You need someone who loves the work and the property and has a vision of more than 1 or 2 works ahead at the helm and they don't have that.
 
Baulderstone said:
Or potentially an interesting one from a dramatic perspective. I've already stated that I fundamentally hate the idea of bringing Palpatine back, but putting that aside, think of all the interesting things you could do with Rey being the Emperor's granddaughter. The original trilogy made Darth Vader being Luke's father into something powerful, and Rise of Skywalker used Palpatine being Rey's grandfather for a boss fight. Even beyond any relationship between them, she's the literal heir to the Empire. That opens up all kinds of possibilities like misguided Republic supporters wanting her dead for fear she will be used to restore the Empire.

Of course, you can only get those stories when you plan out your plots more than one scene ahead, something Disney is incapable of.
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I think that JJ Abrams seems to have scenes in his head that we wants to do whether or not that scenes fits the story or is even internally consistent. His movies jump from set piece to set piece. For example, in one of the Trek movies, gravity on the ship was shifting randomly within the ship - he seems to have just wanted people and objects being pulled in various directions. But it was mainly stupid.
 
chuckdee said:
I think its more that they can't clone Feige and Kennedy isn't a good facsimile. They need to give someone control and doing that with such a big property is counter to bean counter and power broker instincts- they have to meddle.

MCU wasn't that big originally and was a gamble so Feige had control. As it became bigger people tried to erode that control and you see it in the output. You need someone who loves the work and the property and has a vision of more than 1 or 2 works ahead at the helm and they don't have that.
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Yes, the more valuable a property becomes, the more it draws people to it that have little actual interest in it. The first three phases of Marvel were good because they had comic book fans working on the movies. By Phase 4, Marvel was clearly too big to let nerds play run it. It's the same thing that seems to be happening with D&D over at Hasbro.
Stan said:
I think that JJ Abrams seems to have scenes in his head that we wants to do whether or not that scenes fits the story or is even internally consistent. His movies jump from set piece to set piece. For example, in one of the Trek movies, gravity on the ship was shifting randomly within the ship - he seems to have just wanted people and objects being pulled in various directions. But it was mainly stupid.
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Yes, that seems accurate. And Rian Johnson's likes to do a rug pull every scene to the point of absurdity, which is not a good approach when you are trying to maintain an ongoing franchise. And when you combine both their approaches, you get a bigger mess than either could achieve alone.
 
Baulderstone said:
Yes, that seems accurate. And Rian Johnson's likes to do a rug pull every scene to the point of absurdity, which is not a good approach when you are trying to maintain an ongoing franchise. And when you combine both their approaches, you get a bigger mess than either could achieve alone.
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Instead of the Duel of the Fates, the Duel of the Directors. Each wanted to do their own thing and the whole trilogy seemed like an exercise in spite after the first OK outing.
 
I think the problems in Star Wars and Marvel now being run by people who don't care about the problems party comes from the fact that Hollywood is so averse to making anything that isn't already an established IP. If there was a more balances stream of movies coming out, you'd see few people who didn't care about science-fiction and superheroes making these movies. However, since they are about the only game in town, people try to shoehorn their own ideas into the properties just to get them made.

It's similar to the weird mission drift that has occurred with D&D 5E. When Mearls was running it, it was focused on actually being D&D. Now it's becoming more an unfocused blob as people try to impose their ideas onto it rather than making their own games, because most people won't look at anything that isn't D&D.
 
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