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Gabriel

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I always assumed that Obi-Wan had some money, and that maybe he didn't even need any extra from Luke. But Luke insisted on selling his speeder because he was "never coming back to this place again" and he wanted to help pay for the trip. That's why Obi Wan says "it will be enough" as well as his exasperated tone of voice, because it's a completely unnecessary thing and they need to just get out of there.
 

Tulpa Girl

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.Star Wars fans are dark. Like dark. I mean, where else is it acceptable to joke about murdering kids? For decades
I think there's multiple reasons why in this particular instance why that scene elicits more laughs than not - 1) we don't know anything about those kids, so from the context of a fictional narrative they're just ciphers, 2) we don't (if I remember correctly) actually see them getting killed, it all happens off-screen, and 3) to misquote Stalin, 'the death of one youngling is a tragedy, the death of a bucketload of younglings is a farce'.

Also, while Anakin was suppose to be this great hero whose fall is a tragic thing, Hayden Christensen's performance all through Revenge Of The Sith comes across as someone who is looking for an excuse, any excuse, to snap and start murdering people left, right, and center.
 

Endless Flight

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I actually think it was a mistake to film that scene in the first place. Him choking his wife in front of his best friend was enough to send the kind of message Lucas wanted to send. Later on you can still show the bodies of children laying around the Jedi temple with Yoda and Kenobi wondering who killed them because they had lightsaber cuts.
 

Séadna

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For me it's just all the silly elements: Using the term "Youngling", the lazy way of conveying "fuck bro, now he's dark!!", the wooden acting* etc

*It's not that Christensen is necessarily a bad actor, but it's clear nobody was given the space to act in these films. Even Ewan McGregor comes off flat and spaced out.
 

Voros

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I actually think it was a mistake to film that scene in the first place. Him choking his wife in front of his best friend was enough to send the kind of message Lucas wanted to send. Later on you can still show the bodies of children laying around the Jedi temple with Yoda and Kenobi wondering who killed them because they had lightsaber cuts.

Like a lot of SW (including his saving of Luke in RotJ) the slaughter of the younglings feels undermotivated.

But my main issue is that later merely saving Luke and offing the Emperor is enough to get him back into the Force Ghost Club even though he killed a temple worth of kids and vaporized the entire planet of Alderaan.

Sorry but saving your own kid and 'restoring balance to the force' doesn't seem enough to redeem those unredeemable acts.
 

TristramEvans

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Like a lot of SW (including his saving of Luke in RotJ) the slaughter of the younglings feels undermotivated.

But my main issue is that later merely saving Luke and offing the Emperor is enough to get him back into the Force Ghost Club even though he killed a temple worth of kids and vaporized the entire planet of Alderaan.

Sorry but saving your own kid and 'restoring balance to the force' doesn't seem enough to redeem those unredeemable acts.

I think that's a very Christianized interpretation of the Star Wars force ghosts.
 

Voros

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I think that's a very Christianized interpretation of the Star Wars force ghosts.

Well I'd argue the Force Ghosts are a pretty sentimental, Christian idea to begin with.

A more Buddhist approach still wouldn't have Anakin hanging with his buds after wiping out billions of innocent lives.
 
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Voros

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I think the actual plot of Palpatine taking over the Republic and playing both sides was a great idea. I just thought some of the small details could have been changed.

I think the broad plotline of the prequels, aside from Anakin as a kid blowing up Star Destroyers, including the clones, etc. was actually pretty good but it was in the execution that it failed. The strength of The Clone Wars cartoon shows how well much of it could work with enough space to focus on character and theme.
 

Simon Hogwood

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But my main issue is that later merely saving Luke and offing the Emperor is enough to get him back into the Force Ghost Club even though he killed a temple worth of kids and vaporized the entire planet of Alderaan.
I'm not sure that Vader can really be blamed for Alderaan, except insofar as any Imperial stationed on the Death Star could be. The bulk of the blame, I think, goes to Tarkin as the station commander and the one actually gave the "fire" order.
 

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Well I'd argue the Force Ghosts are a pretty sentimental, Christian idea to begin with.

I don't think becoming a Force Ghost is a metaphysical reward or the space ninja equivalent of Heaven. Anakin became a Force Ghost because he was connected to the Force, a piece of it that was consumed by it upon his death. Keep in mind, chronologicaly within the film universe, the first Force Ghost was a Sith.
 

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I don't think becoming a Force Ghost is a metaphysical reward or the space ninja equivalent of Heaven. Anakin became a Force Ghost because he was connected to the Force, a piece of it that was consumed by it upon his death. Keep in mind, chronologicaly within the film universe, the first Force Ghost was a Sith.
Which film is that in? I thought I'd seen all the Star Wars movies.
 

Stevethulhu

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One of the Prequels, Palpatine talks about it with Anakin
I must have missed that bit. Because I have no memory of any sort of life after death being mentioned by Palpatine.

Yoda, on the other hand, hears Qui-Gon's voice while Anakin is murdering children. And later says he has knowledge to pass on to Obi-Wan.
 

TristramEvans

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I must have missed that bit. Because I have no memory of any sort of life after death being mentioned by Palpatine.

Yoda, on the other hand, hears Qui-Gon's voice while Anakin is murdering children. And later says he has knowledge to pass on to Obi-Wan.

It's not a story the Jedi would tell you...
 

Stevethulhu

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It's not a story the Jedi would tell you...
It's amazing how much of What Is Known about Star Wars isn't actually in the movies. Like the ship at the beginning of Star Wars. It never gets named on screen, but everyone knows it's name.
 

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Well, I have to sort of correct that. The Sith plan of life after death was transferring their spirit into a new body. I think the Sith goal was to create a perfect vessel for the totality of Dark Side of the Force. The Force struck back by basically creating Anakin (and his children as a way to rebalance the Force). The Jedi didn’t know Force ghosts existed until Qui-Gon Jinn discovered the techniques from a non-Jedi tradition.

Vader didn’t understand what happened to Kenobi when he struck him down aboard the Death Star and sort of realized over time that he didn’t know everything there was to know about the Force just yet. Palpatine had lied to him about Padme. He didn’t know how to save her from death.

In the old EU stuff, Palpatine was always coming back by way of new clones or wanting to jump into Han and Leia’s baby until he was pulled into the netherworld by some Jedi spirits. I feel like they sort of, kind of, tried to do some of this with TROS but the writers weren’t good enough for the task.
 
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Gabriel

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Re: Younglings

I'm 99% sure the only time the movies use the term "younglings" is in RotS and then only in relation to the pre-pubescent jedi padawans. Every other time young or infant characters are referenced, they are "child" or "baby."

I've wondered for a long time if that's an intentional distinction the movie is making. I don't think "youngling" is used in any of the other primary canon Lucas films.
 

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I'm not sure that Vader can really be blamed for Alderaan, except insofar as any Imperial stationed on the Death Star could be. The bulk of the blame, I think, goes to Tarkin as the station commander and the one actually gave the "fire" order.

A bit too much 'I was just following orders' reasoning to me. With the Empire being a clear Nazi analogue I think we all know how that reasoning has flown for RL war crimes. And Vader is second in command is he not?
 
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Voros

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I must have missed that bit. Because I have no memory of any sort of life after death being mentioned by Palpatine.

Yoda, on the other hand, hears Qui-Gon's voice while Anakin is murdering children. And later says he has knowledge to pass on to Obi-Wan.

And in the 6th season of Clone Wars Yoda meets Qui-Gon's force ghost and learns that it is even possible to manifest/communcate after death which the Jedi don't believe is possible until then.
 
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Voros

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I don't think becoming a Force Ghost is a metaphysical reward or the space ninja equivalent of Heaven. Anakin became a Force Ghost because he was connected to the Force, a piece of it that was consumed by it upon his death. Keep in mind, chronologicaly within the film universe, the first Force Ghost was a Sith.

Which force ghost is that? Someone from the EU?

There is the Sith who the Palpatine mentions to Anakin but I don't recall the suggestion that is related to force ghosts, in fact I assumed that Palpatine was lying to Anakin at that point. Hence why he resorts to clone bodies, etc. to extend his life.

I'm no SW expert but wouldn't the first force ghost be Qui-Gon appearing to Yoda?
 
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Simon Hogwood

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A bit too much 'I was just following orders' reasoning to me. With the Empire being a clear Nazi analogue I think we all know how that reasoning has flown for RL war crimes.
Well, less following orders than failing to interfere or countermand them. Anyway, my point was only that it seemed an odd event to single out and equate with the Temple massacre, which you must agree was much more hands-on.

And Vader is second in command is he not?
My understanding is that he was more of an unattached observer outside of the normal chain of command, but I'm not inclined to be dogmatic on the point. Or did you mean second in command of the overall Empire? I was only thinking in terms of the Death Star's personnel.
 

chuckdee

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I actually think it was a mistake to film that scene in the first place. Him choking his wife in front of his best friend was enough to send the kind of message Lucas wanted to send. Later on you can still show the bodies of children laying around the Jedi temple with Yoda and Kenobi wondering who killed them because they had lightsaber cuts.
Lucas has never known the word 'subtle'. That was for other people that reined him in. I mean, he probably wanted to have Darth torture Luke or cut a few more parts off. Once those people were gone, a little was never enough.
 

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In the old EU stuff, Palpatine was always coming back by way of new clones or wanting to jump into Han and Leia’s baby until he was pulled into the netherworld by some Jedi spirits. I feel like they sort of, kind of, tried to do some of this with TROS but the writers weren’t good enough for the task.
Also in the excellent comic series, they delved into it extensively.
 

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A bit too much 'I was just following orders' reasoning to me. With the Empire being a clear Nazi analogue I think we all know how that reasoning has flown for RL war crimes. And Vader is second in command is he not?
I never had the impression that Vader had any military rank in Star Wars. He's there as the representative of the Emperor, which gives him clout, but he's outside the chain of command entirely.

That said, he was clearly in on Alderaan being blown up. It was blown up as part of the interrogation of Leia about the Death Star plans. That was Vader's job. not Tarkin's. Sure, Tarkin gave the order, but Vader and Tarkin clearly planned this ahead of time. The relationship between Tarkin and Vader is interesting, Tarkin isn't intimidated by Vader at all. He even gets Vader to back down at one point. I always felt there was a mutual respect between those too.

When I heard Tarkin was going to be in the prequels, I was excited to see some background, but all we got was that silent shot near the end.
 

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The other person who definitely knew Vader was Skywalker was Thrawn, because he continued a conversation with Vader that he had with Skywalker years prior, which annoyed the Dark Lord.
 

TristramEvans

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And Vader is second in command is he not?

I don't think so, he was very obviously subordinant to Grand Moff Tarkin.

I thought of his "position" as closer to like a Napoleonic Spymaster. Not part of the regular chain of command, has importance but ambiguous authority when it comes to Generals.
 

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The other person who definitely knew Vader was Skywalker was Thrawn, because he continued a conversation with Vader that he had with Skywalker years prior, which annoyed the Dark Lord.
Saying "I already knew that and planned for it" is Thrawn' whole shtick.

I reread Heir to the Empire and sequels a few years back. And the while thi g ran on coincidental meetings and Thrawn going, "Just as I planned!"

As for Vader's position on the Death Star, thays obvious. He's an aristocrat. Lord Vader has authority because he has a position at the Emperors Court. He's a World War 1 noble slumming with the military. He's also a damn good pilot and has some space wizard powers that are not as flashy and obvious as later films made them. Hence the mocking of his clairvoyance and sorceror's ways.
 
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