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chuckdee

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Lord Vader has authority because he has a position at the Emperors Court.
He's Palpatine's Apprentice and right hand. That's what gives him his power. He's not in the regular chain of command in any way- but as Palpatine's right hand, to offend him is to risk the wrath of Palpatine.
 

Stevethulhu

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He's Palpatine's Apprentice and right hand. That's what gives him his power. He's not in the regular chain of command in any way- but as Palpatine's right hand, to offend him is to risk the wrath of Palpatine.
He wasn't even that in the first movie.

There's a not inconsiderable part of me that would love to do a game based just on the setting as implied by the first Star Wars movie. Using the WEG rules or similar.
 

chuckdee

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He wasn't even that in the first movie.
I might not be remembering correctly, but what implies that he's not that in the first movie? From my memory, it's not mentioned either way- only that his coming is not a good thing.
 

Endless Flight

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He’s mentioned in the first movie. “The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently” being an example. The Emperor was not confirmed at that time as being Darth Sidious. That came later. He was only known as Palpatine the politician. Some suspected he was more than that though.
 

chuckdee

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He’s mentioned in the first movie. “The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently” being an example. The Emperor was not confirmed at that time as being Darth Sidious. That came later. He was only known as Palpatine the politician. Some suspected he was more than that though.
I know he's mentioned. I'm just talking about his relationship to Vader being mentioned or not.
 

Stevethulhu

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He’s mentioned in the first movie. “The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently” being an example. The Emperor was not confirmed at that time as being Darth Sidious. That came later. He was only known as Palpatine the politician. Some suspected he was more than that though.
The name Palpatine wasn't mentioned on screen until the first of the prequels.

The original film didn't even suggest a connection between Vader and the Emperor, other than the Lord Vader title.

And the Emperor is literally a throwaway line about him dissolving the senate and letting g regional governors run things.

So much of what is known is never mentioned on screen.
 

Stevethulhu

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He’s mentioned in the first movie. “The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently” being an example. The Emperor was not confirmed at that time as being Darth Sidious. That came later. He was only known as Palpatine the politician. Some suspected he was more than that though.
The name Palpatine wasn't mentioned on screen until the first of the prequels.

The original film didn't even suggest a connection between Vader and the Emperor, other than the Lord Vader title.

And the Emperor is literally a throwaway line about him dissolving the senate and letting g regional governors run things.

So much of what is known is never mentioned on screen.
 

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I forget where the name Palpatine first pops up. I know it was already a thing before the WEG books came out. I'm thinking the name is first used in the novelization of Return of the Jedi.

Edit: It MAY have popped up in the Return of the Jedi Official Collector's Edition book/magazine that was released around the same time as the film. It's been a long time since I've owned a copy, and I remember it having some fluff bits about the background of the universe.
 

3rik

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I forget where the name Palpatine first pops up. I know it was already a thing before the WEG books came out. I'm thinking the name is first used in the novelization of Return of the Jedi.
I had that and yes, it is mentioned there. In fact, the emperor is constantly referred to by his name in the book.
 
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Voros

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I don't think so, he was very obviously subordinant to Grand Moff Tarkin.

I thought of his "position" as closer to like a Napoleonic Spymaster. Not part of the regular chain of command, has importance but ambiguous authority when it comes to Generals.

By second in command I meant he answered to Tarkin or at least couldn't boss him around. Something I noticed in my recent rewatch of SW.
 

TristramEvans

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Well, I have to sort of correct that. The Sith plan of life after death was transferring their spirit into a new body. I think the Sith goal was to create a perfect vessel for the totality of Dark Side of the Force. The Force struck back by basically creating Anakin (and his children as a way to rebalance the Force). The Jedi didn’t know Force ghosts existed until Qui-Gon Jinn discovered the techniques from a non-Jedi tradition.

Vader didn’t understand what happened to Kenobi when he struck him down aboard the Death Star and sort of realized over time that he didn’t know everything there was to know about the Force just yet. Palpatine had lied to him about Padme. He didn’t know how to save her from death.

In the old EU stuff, Palpatine was always coming back by way of new clones or wanting to jump into Han and Leia’s baby until he was pulled into the netherworld by some Jedi spirits. I feel like they sort of, kind of, tried to do some of this with TROS but the writers weren’t good enough for the task.

The first Force ghost Jedi was definitely Qui-Gon. He could only materialize in voice form at first.


OK, I'm going to tackle this in two ways, because there's two continuities - I think the most significant alterations to the original trilogy, besides Greedo shooting first, is replacing Anakin the adult's force ghost with Anakin from the prequels.

So I'm going to give my interpretation of the original trllogy first.

There is no implication in the original films that becoming a Force Ghost is a special ability only developed by a few Jedi - just going by the trilogy, ANY Jedi who dies could be a Force Ghost, it's not an ability or skill. Moreover, only Luke ever sees any Force Ghosts - even his sister, despite her Force talent, cannot see them, which suggests it's more to do with Luke's connection to the Force than those who have passed. In the original version of Jedi we don't see Darth Vader, or Anakin before he turned to the Dark Side, we see Anakin who might have been if he never turned to the Dark Side , the man he should have been. What this suggests to me is that Jedi, having a connection to the Force, are, upon death, absorbed and become one with it. Luke is able to communicate/see those Jedi he knew when they were alive as aspects of the Force as it flows through him. He sees his teachers, and he sees his father as he wanted him to be. His father had redeemed himsel in his eyes. But the key here is that Luke only sees Force Ghosts as he interprets them - Obi Wan and Yoda are not themselves as young men, or their idealized versions of themselves, they are the only versions of themselves Luke knew.

The Prequel trilogy really has to stand on its own continuity-wise, there's simply too many contradictions with the original films. So in this weird alternate universe where Darth Vader built C3PO, knew R2D2 as a kid, all the Jedi dress like hermits living incognito in hiding from the Empire on Tatoinne, Leia never knew her real mother, the Force is a bacteria, and pretty much nothing ObiWan said in Episode 5 is even remotely true...no implications from one trilogy can be relied upon as evidence supporting anything that happened in the other trilogy.

So in the prequel trilogy you have two characters who discuss techniques for "cheating death" - Qui Gon, and Palpatine, and both of them reference ancient stories that it seems most Jedi are unaware of. My interpretation, when watching the films, and granted this is with no knowledge of secondary sources like the Clone Wars cartoons or any media outside the films, is that Qui Gon and Palpatine encountered the same story, and researched the same technique.

Now , of course, the first reaction I expect is "that can't be, Palpy was talking about a legendary Sith lord, and Qui Gon wouldn't be researching Sith" right? Well, this is where I'm going to go on a bit of a limb, and perhaps acsribe more depth to Lucas' intentions than is warranted, but bear with me.

The thing that always bothered e the most in the prequels, that sat uneasily with me, besides the retcons and midichlorians, was the prophecy surrounding Anakin. The Jedi said of this prophecy - "the one who will bring balance to The Force". It's that word - balance - that sticks in my craw. What does that mean? Obi Wan interprets it as he was supposed to destroy The Sith - but what Sith? At the beginning of the Prequels, the Jedi didn't think the Sith still existed. They'd gone deep into hiding. But even if that weren't the case, the Force has two sides - the Light and the Dark. So how is removing one side "balance"?

So here's my theory - The Sith and the Jedi were once one group, and at some time in the far past they split. This led to the unbalance, much like the split between the Skeksis and the UrRu in the Dark Crystal. This is why, though osensibly "good", the Jedi are disconnected from humanity - love, passion, feelings. They are myopic and stubborn, and they essentially genocided the Sith by all accounts. The Jedi are the ones that unbalanced the Force.

Hence the prophecy of one who would "bring balance to the Force" the Jedi couldn't really understand. And so in trying to force Anakin to be a Jedi, pushed him to the other extreme.


Anyways, that digression done, this is why I interpreted Palpatine and Qui Gon both talking about life after death, both actually discussing the same thing from different points of view.
 

Endless Flight

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Actually you are right that the only people who can see Force ghosts are those that were close to them in life. But they are ghosts and have an identity separate from the cosmic Force (the living Force and cosmic Force have been discussed on TCW). And it appears that as time has went on, the ghosts have learned new things and have become more powerful (it’s been explained in some media that time doesn’t work the same in the netherworld so they have plenty of time to learn while days pass by in normal reality). This is mostly known because Yoda was able to physically tap Luke with his ghostly cane and call lightning down to burn the Uneti Tree on Ahch-To. This is kind of the logical end point of Obi-Wan saying he would be more powerful that Vader could possible imagine.

But I’m going off of all the movies, not just the original trilogy. Everybody is free to use their own canon.
 

TristramEvans

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Speaking of the sequel Trilogy, after the end of The Last Jedi, I thought that was where the story was clearly implied to be going - with Kylo saying something like "screw the Dark and the Light side, it's all BS", and Rey ending up being the one foretold to "Bring Balance to the Force". . But, well, the last film didn't follow through on that
 

Endless Flight

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In the original script by the original director Colin Trevorrow, Kylo would stay in the Dark Side of the Force and die that way, no redemption. When he left the production, Abrams changed it to Kylo redeeming himself. I think the plan all along was for Kylo to die, it was just what happens before that.

I actually think they should have done a left turn and let him live and then it would be different from the other trilogies. He would turn back to the light but then have to live with his failures in life.
 

TristramEvans

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I dont know why Kylo and Rey couldn't have gotten a Happily Ever After ending. It is a fairytale after all

Instead we get Rey going off to live as a hermit in the desert, and lying to an old woman
 

Giganotosaurus

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I dont know why Kylo and Rey couldn't have gotten a Happily Ever After ending. It is a fairytale after all

Instead we get Rey going off to live as a hermit in the desert, and lying to an old woman
I kinda wish the old lady startled Rey and Rey knee-jerk reaction force lightninged her.
 

Stevethulhu

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I dont know why Kylo and Rey couldn't have gotten a Happily Ever After ending. It is a fairytale after all

Instead we get Rey going off to live as a hermit in the desert, and lying to an old woman
Kind of sums up the Disney Trilogy. No plan, even one as vague as the OT. No vision, not even one as weakly executed as the PT. Just stuff that seemed like a good idea at the time.
 

Séadna

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The idea of an emotionally open non-ascetic "good" Force user being the proper balance is done pretty well in Knights of the Old Republic with the character Jolee Bindo. To be honest I thought it was the natural thing for the films to explore, but as mentioned above they never really seemed to. To be honest KotOR is simply better written than the majority of the films.

fc3d49be163c74517d0738c434621af8.jpg
 
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Atelerix

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It's been a decade since I watched the film, so pinch of salt...

The whole Sith defeating death thing is Palpatine luring Anakin to the dark side - it's the scene at the weird space ballet.

If you listen carefully in the scene where Vader is created, Palpatine admits that he and Vader must carry on the work. Plagueis didn't succeed is the unspoken assumption here - Papa Palpatine lied to Anakin to corrupt him.

Very much IIRC - I'd need to rewatch it.

There was a late draft of the script where Yoda speaks directly with Qui-Gon, who tells him that he HAS discovered how to maintain his personality in the Force.

It's supposed, I think, to be the great irony, where the audience realises that Anakin has actually thrown away everything to achieve his goal, but he could only achieve it if he had stayed a Jedi.

In the end Liam Neeson wouldn't come back, even for one scene in RotS, so the whole thing was left undercooked and the point doesn't really come across in the actual film. Also, Force ghosting only saves Jedi, so Anakin would still have lost Padme one way or another. A second drafts of your script to tighten your vision for the film turns out to be a good idea after all.
 

Voros

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It's been a decade since I watched the film, so pinch of salt...

The whole Sith defeating death thing is Palpatine luring Anakin to the dark side - it's the scene at the weird space ballet.

If you listen carefully in the scene where Vader is created, Palpatine admits that he and Vader must carry on the work. Plagueis didn't succeed is the unspoken assumption here - Papa Palpatine lied to Anakin to corrupt him.

Very much IIRC - I'd need to rewatch it.

There was a late draft of the script where Yoda speaks directly with Qui-Gon, who tells him that he HAS discovered how to maintain his personality in the Force.

It's supposed, I think, to be the great irony, where the audience realises that Anakin has actually thrown away everything to achieve his goal, but he could only achieve it if he had stayed a Jedi.

In the end Liam Neeson wouldn't come back, even for one scene in RotS, so the whole thing was left undercooked and the point doesn't really come across in the actual film. Also, Force ghosting only saves Jedi, so Anakin would still have lost Padme one way or another. A second drafts of your script to tighten your vision for the film turns out to be a good idea after all.

That scene between Yoda and Qui-on is shown eventually in the last episodes of S6 of The Clone Wars btw.
 

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I forget where the name Palpatine first pops up. I know it was already a thing before the WEG books came out. I'm thinking the name is first used in the novelization of Return of the Jedi.

Edit: It MAY have popped up in the Return of the Jedi Official Collector's Edition book/magazine that was released around the same time as the film. It's been a long time since I've owned a copy, and I remember it having some fluff bits about the background of the universe.

He's the very first character named in the 1977 Star Wars novelisation that Alan Dean Foster wrote for George Lucas. He's in the prologue as a politician who rose to power in the Old Republic and became distanced from the people's cries for justice. No mention of Force powers.

We had to wait a year for the film to come to Britain, so I read everything about the film voraciously. There's ton of stuff from 1977-1983 that was only formally incorporated later. Vader falling into a volcano fighting Obi-Wan comes from the same era - maybe a magazine, or Bantha Tracks?
 

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I always pictured Anakin to be older with an imposing frame when I was a kid. Broad shoulders with dark hair and piercing eyes. A deep voice with a commanding presence.
 

TristramEvans

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TIL Palpatine's first name is "Sheev"

I don't know what to do with that information, but it's in my head now
 

Simon Hogwood

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Yeah, I assumed he'd resemble his brother, just more handsome/in better shape
What broth- oh, you mean Uncle Owen. Which just goes to show how much things changed between 1977 and 1999.

Hang on, though - when was Owen and Beru's last name established to be Lars? That makes it sound like it should be Anakin and Beru who are the siblings in that generation. :tongue:
 
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