The Star Wars Thread

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Yeah SW has always been about the plots. Remember in RotJ when they had to blow up the Deathstar...again?
 
Chris Brady said:
So a lot of people have been mentioning this, and I have to echo. What's the plot of the film? A trailer, especially a 2+ minute one, usually gives a direction, but all we got was flash and size comparisons.
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Trailers don't do that anymore, really. Not for movies that are so heavily dissected by fans as these are. Something new, like the new Vin Deisel one, sure... but not for an established IP that is not based on a book or previous works. They keep it under wraps or risk spoilers.
 
I see that trailer... and it's so manipulative (which is not bad as that's what they're supposed to do). I'm not going to deny I didn't feel it. But I already know they're not going to deliver. It stuns me that with *decades* of material, and so many elements to draw from they go for the cheapest and dumbest ideas and slap-dash it all together.

Even as a child I wasn't this stupid. And you can see that by direct comparison of the OT to "this trilogy" (is it a trilogy?)...

All I see is billions of dollars of missed opportunities, for no good reason.
 
Faylar said:
I grew up with old Star Wars (Pre Remastered) and played most Lucas arts and west end games versions of Star Wars games. Loved them all, love the new stuff too.

It's been too long to capture Original Star Wars anymore, the actors have aged out of the roles and a new cast with new ideas is needed. I would rather more Star War than no Star Wars.
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Personally, I think no Star Wars is better than bad Star Wars. And after the way the dreadful TLJ was praised and defended by the media and the way the actually quite good Solo was savaged by the same, I have little to no faith in the makers of Star Wars.

It doesn't help that I find JJ Abrams to be at best a mediocre director. Hes good at beginnings, struggles with middles and can't make an ending work to save his life. The whole Mystery Box concept.can only lead to disappointment for the audience. But he really doesn't get that.

So yes, I have no real enthusiasm for the next toy ad in the series.
 
The problem I'm having is that people think that if we don't pay for bad Star Wars we won't get any on one side. And the other side says that Disney won't stop making Star Wars because it's a money maker. Those people are WRONG. We WON'T be getting any new Star Wars. Because Disney is NOT making money. But the real crime?

Disney don't care what the real reason as to why it's not making money. They've got their excuses. Franchise fatigue. A well known lie that looks on the surface, but isn't true. They LOVE that one. Comics have been putting out Spider-Man books for almost 50 years, and people want more. STILL, to this day, they want more Spider-Man, so no, franchise fatigue does NOT exist. Bad story fatigue, yes. but if it's good, we'll keep buying it.

But no, they'll bury for about twenty plus years and dust it off to see if a new generation will clamp on, so they suck their wallets dry. We took how long to get Star Trek back on TV? 20 some years. Because it didn't do so hot on the networks. This is what is going to happen with Star Wars or any other franchise that they bungle so bad that they kill the fan base. It'll be hung behind a paywall, and taken out of theatres until they think it'll be safe to milk the money once.

And the crappy part, we have no say. Talking with our wallets just tells them that they ain't making money. That's it. The why doesn't *Beepin'* matter.
 
Disney paid big money for Star Wars, they won't be burying it in the vault for more than a couple years. Investments need to make money. They might eventually figure out a formula that works for them. They gave us the plucky rebels against the overwhelming space Nazi menace again instead of the rebuilding of the republic and the struggle against the remnants of the Empire. I think this was a mistake. We needed a new menace and quite possibly a force related one. It's hard to keep these things on tone. It's good to have call backs to stuff from previous movies but you don't want Star Wars to become a static and self referential trap devoid of new ideas either. Well, unless you're Disney and want to hedge your bets by not taking any risks with your expensive new franchise.

Also, the problem with bigger and bigger fish is that you eventually lose the awe as you go from Star Destroyer to Executioner to Dreadnaught.
 
Stevethulhu said:
Personally, I think no Star Wars is better than bad Star Wars. And after the way the dreadful TLJ was praised and defended by the media and the way the actually quite good Solo was savaged by the same, I have little to no faith in the makers of Star Wars.

It doesn't help that I find JJ Abrams to be at best a mediocre director. Hes good at beginnings, struggles with middles and can't make an ending work to save his life. The whole Mystery Box concept.can only lead to disappointment for the audience. But he really doesn't get that.

So yes, I have no real enthusiasm for the next toy ad in the series.
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Opinions... yadayada

Also... LENSFLARES!
 
David Johansen said:
Disney paid big money for Star Wars, they won't be burying it in the vault for more than a couple years. Investments need to make money. They might eventually figure out a formula that works for them. They gave us the plucky rebels against the overwhelming space Nazi menace again instead of the rebuilding of the republic and the struggle against the remnants of the Empire. I think this was a mistake. We needed a new menace and quite possibly a force related one. It's hard to keep these things on tone. It's good to have call backs to stuff from previous movies but you don't want Star Wars to become a static and self referential trap devoid of new ideas either. Well, unless you're Disney and want to hedge your bets by not taking any risks with your expensive new franchise.

Also, the problem with bigger and bigger fish is that you eventually lose the awe as you go from Star Destroyer to Executioner to Dreadnaught.
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But if it never makes money to recoup that, and instead loses money, at what point do they stop, let it fallow and then try again?
 
Well this is what happens when
Endless Flight said:
I will go to every opening weekend of Star Wars until the day I die.
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I kinda feel the new Star Wars is like the worst elements of Legends... feels like fanfic. And I'm not saying that to shit on fanfic. I'm saying it's like "bad fanfic".
 
Chris Brady said:
But if it never makes money to recoup that, and instead loses money, at what point do they stop, let it fallow and then try again?
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They've already recouped their original investment and they make money on the Star Wars brand hand over fist. Who told you otherwise?
 
tenbones said:
Well this is what happens when

I kinda feel the new Star Wars is like the worst elements of Legends... feels like fanfic. And I'm not saying that to shit on fanfic. I'm saying it's like "bad fanfic".
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I have been getting strong Legacy of the Force vibes from the first two movies, and the trailer for TRoS feels like Dark Empire.
 
No, the worst elements of Legends are Chewie getting killed by a moon crashing into him, the Vong, Luuke the Clone, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile the three original heroes Han, Luke and Leia live to be 150. The goodwill of the Thrawn trilogy can only go so far.
 
Dumarest said:
They've already recouped their original investment and they make money on the Star Wars brand hand over fist. Who told you otherwise?
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That's the thing, I've been hearing they have not. That's why they're deluging the market, why they're panicking with putting all this Star Wars things behind a subscription system to get some money back.

A lot of the misconceptions is that that they see that 'budget' and then make a mistake thinking 'gross' is the actual income. Thing is those numbers only show a tiny part. The Budget is just how much was spent making the movie. It doesn't cover marketing. Which is usually another 50% to 100%, sometimes even more. Also, if a movie gets reshot (like say Solo did, about 80% of it was) they give one of the budget's numbers to sites like Box Office Mojo.

Next is Gross. Which is total money earned. But it's not what the studios get. Because Gross doesn't factor things like taxes, theatre cuts and other fees. In the U.S. for example, the theatre tends to keep 20-30% of the movies gross (which is why drinks and food is so expensive, they need to recoup the loss), whereas overseas it's often higher, like China's whopping 70%. So we need to play it safe and cut the Gross in half.

Let's take Spider-Man Into the Spider Verse. 90m budget with 375.5m. Looks good! Except that the marketing, being generous, would add about 45m (although, I heard that it was actually closer to 90m) so a total of 135m. Now, the gross still looks great, except that after theatre cuts and fees brings it down to about 188m, so about 50m profit, not so hot. And if it was 180m with marketing, we're looking at 8m profit, NOT that Sony had hoped for. Executives want 3x their investments, after cuts.

Also we need to remember, The Last Jedi bombed in China. By the second week it had been dropped out of 98% of the nation's theatres. By the third, it was gone. It hasn't made it's money back YET. That's the issue.

And finally, the theme park. Which was a MASSIVE hit to their license to print money. It was supposed to help with the recovery of that investment. It has not.
 
Endless Flight said:
No, the worst elements of Legends are Chewie getting killed by a moon crashing into him, the Vong, Luuke the Clone, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile the three original heroes live to be 150. The goodwill of the Thrawn trilogy can only go so far.
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You'd be amazed at how far that bit of non-canon is still going to this day. Again, despite Lucas HIMSELF making it non-canon by changing the Clone Wars from the more interesting Insane Cloned Jedi vs The Galaxy to Meat Robots vs. Metal Robots. That invalidates the entire Zahn Trilogy.
 
They’ll make the money back.

I actually didn’t think they paid that much for it. Go into any store like Target or Walmart and see how much Star Wars merchandise there is. Not just toys, but cups, shirts, pencils, toothbrushes, Blu-rays, food. Disney makes a small cut off of every one of those.
 
Endless Flight said:
They’ll make the money back.

I actually didn’t think they paid that much for it. Go into any store like Target or Walmart and see how much Star Wars merchandise there is. Not just toys, but cups, shirts, pencils, toothbrushes, Blu-rays, food. Disney makes a small cut off of every one of those.
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They haven't yet. That's the problem. They NEED the money NOW. The merchandising for their movies have been utter and complete failures. They helped run Toy'R'Us U.S. out of business! Millions of dollars of toys, pencils, toothbrushes, shirts are rotting on shelves, as kids are wanting Marvel Movie stuff instead.

And again, Disney's real money maker have ALWAYS been the theme parks, and it ain't doin' it this time.
 
When I think about the worst book I ever read, I tend to think of Dragonworld.

I also tend to think of the Robotech novels. Many people say End of the Circle is the worst those got. I think it was far worse in the latter two books of The Sentinels as the original plot outline ran out and the writers were no longer just filling in the blanks but guiding the ship.

I remember reading the Zahn trilogy. I'd place it below the Robotech novels but somewhat above Dragonworld. When people tell me how it is the absolute height of Star Wars fiction...
 
Im glad star wars exists still, but I wish they'd stop making shit Star Wars films. I've no doubt Rise will be a glorious train wreck.
 
Chris Brady said:
They haven't yet. That's the problem. They NEED the money NOW. The merchandising for their movies have been utter and complete failures. They helped run Toy'R'Us U.S. out of business! Millions of dollars of toys, pencils, toothbrushes, shirts are rotting on shelves, as kids are wanting Marvel Movie stuff instead.

And again, Disney's real money maker have ALWAYS been the theme parks, and it ain't doin' it this time.
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This is wrong. Disney has made its money back. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/30/six...sfilm-disney-has-recouped-its-investment.html
 
"As a Star Wars discussion approaches infinity, the probability of it becoming a gripefest about the EU, Special Editions or Prequels approaches 1"--a recasting of Godwin's Law I came up with about 15 years back and that still holds true today.
 
Chis, I think you are projecting your distaste at Star Wars into something it isn't. EVERYTHING I've been able to find on this subject has been that it did not do as well as the Force Awakens but was still a massive success. It was still the ninth highest grosser of all time pre end game, and it is still sitting at number 13.

I get you don't like the movie, and that is fine, but I simply don't believe what you are saying to be true here as almost everything else says differently.
 
Armchair Gamer said:
"As a Star Wars discussion approaches infinity, the probability of it becoming a gripefest about the EU, Special Editions or Prequels approaches 1"--a recasting of Godwin's Law I came up with about 15 years back and that still holds true today.
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You can add the CW cgi series in there too. It’s mere existence really riles people. That it has actual fans makes it even worse.
 
Faylar said:
Chis, I think you are projecting your distaste at Star Wars into something it isn't. EVERYTHING I've been able to find on this subject has been that it did not do as well as the Force Awakens but was still a massive success. It was still the ninth highest grosser of all time pre end game, and it is still sitting at number 13.

I get you don't like the movie, and that is fine, but I simply don't believe what you are saying to be true here as almost everything else says differently.
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Are you talking to me? I LOVE Star Wars. I eat up EVERYTHING they have, even the bad stuff. I try to follow the lore as best I can. I also understand that it's not perfect either. But I ABSOLUTELY ADORE the franchise. I'm upset at how badly it's been treated.

I'm also a writer, though. Not professional, not yet. But I'm working on that. Here's the thing: The rules of writing, such as they are, are more like suggestions than anything hard, but the Prequels and Sequels have several issues in terms of their mythology.

There are things like setting consistency that allow an audience to stay hooked, things that won't cause them to question it. It also is not that deep either. You don't need to be a loser lore nerd like myself to actually see how the two Sequel films don't work.

Episode 7 in terms of story structure, I've already explained elsewhere. They worked backwards from the ending, and relied on coincidence and the actors having read the script to have happen in the way it did. Also, according the FIRST movie, Star Wars, or a New Hope, a ship CANNOT hyperspace into a planetary atmosphere. It also requires incredible amount of mathematical computations to get it right and not end up dead, again, straight from the first movie in 1977.

Episode 8 actually destroys the franchise. By ignoring A New Hope, they allowed a single ship to destroy a fleet. It's a GORGEOUS effect, it's very cool, impactful and awe inspiring, it's also stupid because that's not how the FIRST MOVIE established how Hyperspace worked. But the real damage comes apparent if you're a loser lore nerd like me. Hyperspace travel has been around for 15,000 years. And you're telling ME that a Space Hippy figured out the setting's greatest, and literally unstoppable, anti-space fleet weapon? Not ONE weapons engineer figured it out?

I'm passionate because I CARE. If I didn't I wouldn't be here. I'd let it die. But I can't. And I'm just a little guy with a keyboard and knowledge of how Hollywood works...

And watch this, when the MCU declines (and it will. To a lot of people it's been a great 10 years, but it's done now. Time to move on.) the executives will blame 'Superhero Fatigue' as to why it's not so hot anymore, and then Disney will Black Cauldron it.

And it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. Facts don't care.
 
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Chris Brady said:
Are you talking to me? I LOVE Star Wars. I eat up EVERYTHING they have, even the bad stuff. I try to follow the lore as best I can. I also understand that it's not perfect either. But I ABSOLUTELY ADORE the franchise. I'm upset at how badly it's been treated.

I'm also a writer, though. Not professional, not yet. But I'm working on that. Here's the thing: The rules of writing, such as they are, are more like suggestions than anything hard, but the Prequels and Sequels have several issues in terms of their mythology.

There are things like setting consistency that allow an audience to stay hooked, things that won't cause them to question it. It also is not that deep either. You don't need to be a loser lore nerd like myself to actually see how the two Sequel films don't work.

Episode 7 in terms of story structure, I've already explained elsewhere. They worked backwards from the ending, and relied on coincidence and the actors having read the script to have happen in the way it did. Also, according the FIRST movie, Star Wars, or a New Hope, a ship CANNOT hyperspace into a planetary atmosphere. It also requires incredible amount of mathematical computations to get it right and not end up dead, again, straight from the first movie in 1977.

Episode 8 actually destroys the franchise. By ignoring A New Hope, they allowed a single ship to destroy a fleet. It's a GORGEOUS effect, it's very cool, impactful and awe inspiring, it's also stupid because that's not how the FIRST MOVIE established how Hyperspace worked. But the real damage comes apparent if you're a loser lore nerd like me. Hyperspace travel has been around for 15,000 years. And you're telling ME that a Space Hippy figured out the setting's greatest, and literally unstoppable, anti-space fleet weapon? Not ONE weapons engineer figured it out?

I'm passionate because I CARE. If I didn't I wouldn't be here. I'd let it die. But I can't. And I'm just a little guy with a keyboard and knowledge of how Hollywood works...

And watch this, when the MCU declines (and it will. To a lot of people it's been a great 10 years, but it's done now. Time to move on.) the executives will blame 'Superhero Fatigue' as to why it's not so hot anymore, and then Disney will Black Cauldron it.
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Still not seeing it. Still think it's projecting. People do it all the time... when they encounter something they viscerally dislike, they look for things, and only for things, that validate their opinion.

Let me rephrase what I said originally though. Your distaste for NEW Star Wars. That is what I was actually meaning. You can't be that passionate unless you were a long time nerd... I get it.

As for Hyperdrive... Its been a long time and the Republic has been restored a while. It's not impossible that they designed the ships to do that in that time and her being an Admiral (Not a space hippy) was instructed on how to do it as a last resort. She obviously had it planned like she did.

I actually liked it, and yes, I did grow up on Original Star Wars, my older brother was absolutely obsessed with it.
You can enjoy it or not, but I simply fail to get why some people need to scream from the rooftops how much they hate it in order to make other people hate it too.
 
I don’t remember anyone in A New Hope saying a ship can’t enter an atmosphere when it is Hyperspace. A ship cannot go through solid objects while in Hyperspace, but atmosphere? I don’t remember that. And even if a character did say it, it still doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
 
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Endless Flight said:
I don’t remember anyone in A New Hope saying a ship can’t enter an atmosphere when it is Hyperspace. A ship cannot go through solid objects while in Hyperspace, but atmosphere? I don’t remember that. And even if a character did say it, it still doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
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Looking into it, Clone wars broke this "rule" first with micro jumps.
Canon allows it, Legends do not. That is the difference.
An unmodified starship will come out of hyperspace when in a sufficient mass shadow, hence the interdictors working, a modified one can ignore it but with often fatal consequences.

So this rule was broken in canon long before The Last Jedi.
 
Faylar said:
You can enjoy it or not, but I simply fail to get why some people need to scream from the rooftops how much they hate it in order to make other people hate it too.
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I personally think all the movies after The Empire Strikes Back haven't been very good or interesting, but I've found the best solution is not to watch them. I have the first three movies--original theatrical release versions--at home where George Lucas can't ruin them. I have the Marvel comic books. I have the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian novel trilogies and Splinter in the Mind's Eye. I'll never need more Star Wars than I already have. I don't really get why anybody cares if Disney makes money or not, or makes bad movies other people will pay to see.

The trouble with fans is they invest themselves in a property over which they have no control yet feel as if they are somehow rightful owners simply for loving it. We need to realize it's just business and they're going to do whatever they think will maximize profits. Sometimes you just have to jump ship. I've had to take this course with Star Trek, DC and Marvel superheroes, James Bond, pretty much any franchise that goes on a long while or gets "rebooted." The Man from U.N.C.L.E., the Steed & Peel Avengers, even Clash of the Titans have all been brought back with inferior nee interpretations I pretend never happened. I decided to look at it this way: I still have the original versions that I enjoy (because we live in a golden age for reprints and rereleases) and all the money I'm saving on the new junk I can save or use to discover something else. All my comic book budget, for instance, now goes to Golden Age reprints of characters and stories that previously you couldn't get hold of unless you were (1) wealthy and (2) didn't mind potentially damaging a 75-year-old comic book by reading it. I was just writing about this in the "Whatcha Readin'" thread:
20191025_182232.jpg​
It's a lot more fun, and probably healthier, than bitching and moaning about why the modern Batman sucks or why the portrayal of Captain America is so out of character.
 
Dumarest said:
I personally think all the movies after The Empire Strikes Back haven't been very good or interesting, but I've found the best solution is not to watch them. I have the first three movies--original theatrical release versions--at home where George Lucas can't ruin them. I have the Marvel comic books. I have the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian novel trilogies and Splinter in the Mind's Eye. I'll never need more Star Wars than I already have. I don't really get why anybody cares if Disney makes money or not, or makes bad movies other people will pay to see.

The trouble with fans is they invest themselves in a property over which they have no control yet feel as if they are somehow rightful owners simply for loving it. We need to realize it's just business and they're going to do whatever they think will maximize profits. Sometimes you just have to jump ship. I've had to take this course with Star Trek, DC and Marvel superheroes, James Bond, pretty much any franchise that goes on a long while or gets "rebooted." The Man from U.N.C.L.E., the Steed & Peel Avengers, even Clash of the Titans have all been brought back with inferior nee interpretations I pretend never happened. I decided to look at it this way: I still have the original versions that I enjoy (because we live in a golden age for reprints and rereleases) and all the money I'm saving on the new junk I can save or use to discover something else. All my comic book budget, for instance, now goes to Golden Age reprints of characters and stories that previously you couldn't get hold of unless you were (1) wealthy and (2) didn't mind potentially damaging a 75-year-old comic book by reading it. I was just writing about this in the "Whatcha Readin'" thread:
It's a lot more fun, and probably healthier, than bitching and moaning about why the modern Batman sucks or why the portrayal of Captain America is so out of character.
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I wen through this with the Abrams reboot of Star Trek until someone pointed out that I was being a douche and ruining it for others. So I stopped. Now I do not understand why I was like that. It's more fun to geek out over something you like than it is to moan about something you don't.
 
Chris Brady said:
That's the thing, I've been hearing they have not. That's why they're deluging the market, why they're panicking with putting all this Star Wars things behind a subscription system to get some money back.

A lot of the misconceptions is that that they see that 'budget' and then make a mistake thinking 'gross' is the actual income. Thing is those numbers only show a tiny part. The Budget is just how much was spent making the movie. It doesn't cover marketing. Which is usually another 50% to 100%, sometimes even more. Also, if a movie gets reshot (like say Solo did, about 80% of it was) they give one of the budget's numbers to sites like Box Office Mojo.

Next is Gross. Which is total money earned. But it's not what the studios get. Because Gross doesn't factor things like taxes, theatre cuts and other fees. In the U.S. for example, the theatre tends to keep 20-30% of the movies gross (which is why drinks and food is so expensive, they need to recoup the loss), whereas overseas it's often higher, like China's whopping 70%. So we need to play it safe and cut the Gross in half.

Let's take Spider-Man Into the Spider Verse. 90m budget with 375.5m. Looks good! Except that the marketing, being generous, would add about 45m (although, I heard that it was actually closer to 90m) so a total of 135m. Now, the gross still looks great, except that after theatre cuts and fees brings it down to about 188m, so about 50m profit, not so hot. And if it was 180m with marketing, we're looking at 8m profit, NOT that Sony had hoped for. Executives want 3x their investments, after cuts.

Also we need to remember, The Last Jedi bombed in China. By the second week it had been dropped out of 98% of the nation's theatres. By the third, it was gone. It hasn't made it's money back YET. That's the issue.

And finally, the theme park. Which was a MASSIVE hit to their license to print money. It was supposed to help with the recovery of that investment. It has not.
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Publicly announced budget numbers are not reliable, they are routinely inflated to create hype.

Box office returns are more reliable though. And TLJ performed as well at the box office compared to TFA as The Empire Strikes Back did compared to SW. There is approx. a 5% difference in the comparative performance of TLJ and Empire. I don't recall fans declaring Empire a financial failure. Sequels are known to almost always make less money than fhe film they follow but they are valued by studios because their performance is much more reliable than a completely original film.

Those international returns on Box Office Mojo (54.7% for TFA and 53.5% for TLJ) also suggest that your claims about TLJ 'bombing' in China are either internet fiction peddled by disgruntled fans or that China is not needed for big international numbers: I suspect it is the former.
 
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