The Star Wars Thread

[Dumarest]

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to take Vader's repentance as implicit in that action, based on the necessary economy of cinematic storytelling. Beyond that, I'm not sure I can do it justice without pushing the limits of the board's discussion rules.

Sure, but repentance ≠ redemption, and surely isn't enough for him to stand alongside Yoda and Ben Kenobi at the end.

 

[Giganotosaurus]

Sure, but repentance ≠ redemption, and surely isn't enough for him to stand alongside Yoda and Ben Kenobi at the end.

I wonder if him standing beside Yoda and Ben is a way of them saying that they forgive Vader?

 

[tenbones]

But isn't the final arbiter the Force itself? The fact that (within the context of the movies) he appears at the Yub-Yub jam at the end as a Force Ghost, to me, clearly implies he was redeemed. This goes to the cinematic need for strong beats I mentioned above and what they imply.

I *can* see it your way too - but then if that's what I meant as the storyteller, I would have totally omitted him from that scene. Would have definitely given the ending some dark poignancy and! would have added some gravity to the idea that Luke was supposed to be the one to "bring balance" to the Force. Which would have been a cool way to launch the third trilogy...

Unfortunately Lucas decided to wait nearly three-decades to get to that... and then just cashed out.

 

[Endless Flight]

Star Wars is a story for 8-12 year old children. We’ve all outgrown the target demographic. I think even George grew tired of defending his creation from 40 year old fans.

 

[tenbones]

So I have a controversial question...

Would you be open to a total "re-do" on Star Wars from top-to-bottom?


with the following CAVEATS...

- Let's pretend Disney was going to market this with a social-media blackout from the actors and production staff - so no political bickering or trolling from the people involved.

- John Williams must do the music

- EU elements are in play.

1)Who is your cast?
2) Who do you want writing/directing?
3) What EU elements would you add?
4) What elements that are movie-canon would you remove?

GO

 

[tenbones]

Star Wars is a story for 8-12 year old children. We’ve all outgrown the target demographic. I think even George grew tired of defending his creation from 40 year old fans.

LOL and yet... here we are.

I think it's because we know Star Wars can be more. We're a purer breed of nerd than Lucas ever was.

 

[Endless Flight]

Redo the Saga? Absolutely not.

 

[Endless Flight]

LOL and yet... here we are.

I think it's because we know Star Wars can be more. We're a purer breed of nerd than Lucas ever was.

You’ll never get me to say a bad word against Mr. Lucas. He’s a treasure. The only thing I will say is that he should have had a director for the prequels but apparently nobody would do it. They all told George to do it himself and that’s what happened.

 

[Dumarest]

Star Wars is a story for 8-12 year old children. We’ve all outgrown the target demographic. I think even George grew tired of defending his creation from 40 year old fans.

Your point evades you. Even children will question things that make no sense. Especially children, actually, in my experience.

 

[Voros]

Well... it's hard for me to watch a movie and not fill in the gaps from a written perspective because I understand the time-constraints of what the creators have to pack into those ~120 minutes. Definitely those "conversion" moments are literally just beats on the screen. But from a writing perspective, those beats have definitive implications - which Lucas seeded, intentionally or not, by following several classical storytelling structures. Those "seeds" are purely implied but they hit that "mythic chord" humans seem to be programmed, for the most part, to respond to.

Those casual toss-off lines like "You fought in the Clone Wars?", and "I made the Kessel Run in 12-parsecs" are non-contextual clues of high merit that we had no clue what they meant, until it was fleshed out later. But the trope of seeding that landscape gave gravity to the setting. Conversely, how he presented characters within the setting seals those conceits - the contextual totalitarian nature of the Empire, and the naked obedience with which Vader in New Hope... and later finding out that Vader was the "Hero Father" turned "Fallen Father-figure" is a microcosm for seeds that they drop later, via Yoda with the larger notion of the Force being "unbalanced". There are implications, wisely left unspoken, that the use of the Force and its mysterious interactions are best left to the imagination. Kershner and Kasdan understood this. The moment you try to explain those interactions is a gigantic mistake. This is how you get dumb ideas like Midicholorians. (This is a huge problem for Stephen King too - when he reveals what his horrors are... It's a big psychic spider boys and girls! It goes over like a wet fart.)

The idea is that while Lucas may well not have understood this himself at the time - he was merely following the structure of classical Hero myths... but ultimately that's *all* you have to do.

Pulp hero adventures *do* exactly that. So lets pretend that Lucas doesn't understand all the requirements of telling a Greek Hero-myth, but he follows the tropes of later forms that do follow those same structures, then along with the help of good writers and editors, the ship gets built in the air while it's flying. But it happens *because* they're following the classical Hero's Journey formula, not because Lucas is some kind of genius that invented it. What he did, that was genius, was present that old form, in a modern context with damn fine execution.



You will have ZERO argument from me on this. I'd say that Star Wars, due to its nature is a lot more complex than either of his previous works, which are very subtle and personal in their own right. Both of which are lovely films.

In the myth Luke would have killed his father (and fucked his sister).

Not a lot of last minute redemption in Greek myths, that is more a trope of sentimental pulp adventure which I think is a much better model for what SW is doing than Greek myths. Lucas flirts with the mythical but ultimately is creating a popular entertainment that can’t go the places the myths do.

 

[Voros]

I don’t think Skywalker in the title refers to a person. I think it refers to a belief or idea.

No one has even seen the film and are making assumptions about the title. Sums up the SW ‘fandom’ in a nutshell to me.

 

[Endless Flight]

Your point evades you. Even children will question things that make no sense. Especially children, actually, in my experience.

Not to the point that older Star Wars fans do.

What you said above about Anakin’s Force ghost. I wouldn’t have questioned why he was there at that age. I would have questioned why he had such lovely hair.

 

[Armchair Gamer]

In the myth Luke would have killed his father (and fucked his sister).

Not a lot of last minute redemption in Greek myths, that is more a trope of sentimental pulp adventure which I think is a much better model for what SW is doing than Greek myths. Lucas flirts with the mythical but ultimately is creating a popular entertainment that can’t go the places the myths do.

Another point of view is that Lucas is drawing on a different myth, one that some of us believe took place in history and is commemorated this week. Is Vader the Good Thief? (This is going to get me in trouble, I just know it.)

 

[Endless Flight]

No one has even seen the film and are making assumptions about the title. Sums up the SW ‘fandom’ in a nutshell to me.

Yeah it’s all speculation at this point. What annoys me are people who scream at JJ to retcon the last film. It won’t happen.

 

[Dumarest]

So I have a controversial question...

Would you be open to a total "re-do" on Star Wars from top-to-bottom?


with the following CAVEATS...

- Let's pretend Disney was going to market this with a social-media blackout from the actors and production staff - so no political bickering or trolling from the people involved.

- John Williams must do the music

- EU elements are in play.

1)Who is your cast?
2) Who do you want writing/directing?
3) What EU elements would you add?
4) What elements that are movie-canon would you remove?

GO

They did it with Star Trek so I wouldn't be surprised if we got Nü-Star Wars someday. Personally I'd go for Star Wars Muppets. I'd use Fozzie Bear as Luke Skywalker, Kermit the Frog as Han Solo, Miss Piggy as Princess Leia, Animal as Chewbacca, Floyd Pepper as Ben Kenobi, Rowlf as Lando Calrissian, Gonzo as Boba Fett, Beaker as IG-88, Scooter as Wedge, Bunsen Honeydew as the Emperor, Doctor Teeth as Uncle Owen, Janice as Aunt Beru, and I'd broker a deal with Sesame Street to get Count von Count as Darth Vader. Same script as the originals.

 

[Dumarest]

In the myth Luke would have killed his father (and fucked his sister).

Mother, no?

 

[Voros]

Another point of view is that Lucas is drawing on a different myth, one that some of us believe took place in history and is commemorated this week. Is Vader the Good Thief? (This is going to get me in trouble, I just know it.)

Lol, possibily but I’m not seeing a lot of Christian allegory in SW myself.

 

[Voros]

Mother, no?

The Greeks got around.

 

[Armchair Gamer]

Lol, possibily but I’m not seeing a lot of Christian allegory in SW myself.

Star Wars' metaphysics and theology are a mixture of Christianity, Buddhism/Taoism, pop psychology, and pop-New Age thinking, but I do think Lucas was drawing on those themes in RotJ, even if subconsciously.

 

[Voros]

They did it with Star Trek so I wouldn't be surprised if we got Nü-Star Wars someday. Personally I'd go for Star Wars Muppets. I'd use Fozzie Bear as Luke Skywalker, Kermit the Frog as Han Solo, Miss Piggy as Princess Leia, Animal as Chewbacca, Floyd Pepper as Ben Kenobi, Rowlf as Lando Calrissian, Gonzo as Boba Fett, Beaker as IG-88, Scooter as Wedge, Bunsen Honeydew as the Emperor, Doctor Teeth as Uncle Owen, Janice as Aunt Beru, and I'd broker a deal with Sesame Street to get Count von Count as Darth Vader. Same script as the originals.

That would be awesome and would drive some of the fandom into paroxysms of rage.

 

[Voros]

Star Wars' metaphysics and theology are a mixture of Christianity, Buddhism/Taoism, pop psychology, and pop-New Age thinking, but I do think Lucas was drawing on those themes in RotJ, even if subconsciously.

Sure but I’m just not seeing enough in the material to support a Christian reading in Vader’s redemption, just my opinion though.

 

[Dumarest]

The Greeks got around.

Spoiler: Especially Jason, depending on who you ask!

 

[Voros]

Sure, but repentance ≠ redemption, and surely isn't enough for him to stand alongside Yoda and Ben Kenobi at the end.

Good point, Vader blew up entire planets but saves his kid and gets to go to Jedi Heaven?

The Ghost Jedi are hilariously cheesy to me. I get what Armchair is saying regarding a Christian sense of redemption but I don’t think the material earns that, it is mere sentimentality.

 

[Dumarest]

Good point, Vader blew up entire planets but saves his kid and gets to go to Jedi heaven?

The Ghost Jedi are hilariously cheesy to me. I get what Armchair is saying regarding a Christian sense of redemption but I don’t think the material earns that, it is mere sentimentality.

Personally I would not have had any ghosts smiling and looking on at the end as it is corny as eff, but if you've got to have them at least limit it to actual heroic personages (Yoda, Kenobi), not a mass murderer (Vader) who performed a selfish deed that might qualify as good..."from a certain point of view."

That would be awesome and would drive some of the fandom into paroxysms of rage.

Even if the former weren't true,* the latter would be reason enough to make it happen.

* It is true.

 

[Endless Flight]

Spoiler: Especially Jason, depending on who you ask!

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When I was a kid, I got asked quite often by a neighbor: “Jason, where are the Argonauts?”

 

[Dumarest]

When I was a kid, I got asked quite often by a neighbor: “Jason, where are the Argonauts?”

Which is really weird given your first name is obviously Endless!

 

[Endless Flight]

From a certain point of view, the Jedi are evil!! Why should they get to stand there and celebrate? I think one of Lucas’ points of his story is that not everything is as cut and dried as it seems.

 

[Dumarest]

Apparently Disney made Muppet Star Wars dolls a while back, although I'd opine the casting is all wrong aside from Miss Piggy as Princess Leia. If she's Leia, Kermit has to be Han Solo. I actually considered Sam Eagle as Ben Kenobi but thought Floyd Pepper seemed more worldly wise. It also seems that, if we're going to consider alternatives, Beaker fits R2-D2 better given his nonverbal communication, rather than Bunsen Honeydew, so those two should at least be swapped for each other.

​

 

[Voros]

From a certain point of view, the Jedi are evil!! Why should they get to stand there and celebrate? I think one of Lucas’ points of his story is that not everything is as cut and dried as it seems.

I think Lucas just wanted to tie everything up in a pretty bow at the end and make sure the kids left the theatre feeling good. I think the Ghost Jedi are silly but now enjoy them for their camp value, hell they’re surrounded by chirping Ewoks!

 

[tenbones]

You’ll never get me to say a bad word against Mr. Lucas. He’s a treasure. The only thing I will say is that he should have had a director for the prequels but apparently nobody would do it. They all told George to do it himself and that’s what happened.

that's not a disparaging remark. It's an observation WE grew up in a bubble that he helped inadvertently create. While I suspect Lucas and I share quite a big in common in terms of reading material - our interests are probably light-years apart for many reasons. I don't believe Lucas knows anything/cares anything about "geek culture" in the modern-sense.

 

[tenbones]

Good point, Vader blew up entire planets but saves his kid and gets to go to Jedi Heaven?

Vader did not blow up any planets. That was Tarkin. Though as Anakin he did butcher a bunch of kids (thanks George), and hunt down and murdered a ton of Jedi. But he also liberated billions of people too from the Trade Federation and Dooku.

The Ghost Jedi are hilariously cheesy to me. I get what Armchair is saying regarding a Christian sense of redemption but I don’t think the material earns that, it is mere sentimentality.

I liken them to the Greek Chorus from classical drama, given visual form. But I can do with/without them.

 

[Voros]

Vader did not blow up any planets. That was Tarkin. Though as Anakin he did butcher a bunch of kids (thanks George), and hunt down and murdered a ton of Jedi. But he also liberated billions of people too from the Trade Federation and Dooku.



I liken them to the Greek Chorus from classical drama, given visual form. But I can do with/without them.

I don’t see that parallel. The Greek chorus are usually lamenting, predicting doom or making ironic comment. Not giving thumbs ups and warm fuzzies.

The Ghost Jedi are more a trope taken from classic Hollywood melodramas where the dead are presented as transparent ghosts overlooking their loved ones before ascending to heaven.

 

[tenbones]

In the myth Luke would have killed his father (and fucked his sister).

Not a lot of last minute redemption in Greek myths, that is more a trope of sentimental pulp adventure which I think is a much better model for what SW is doing than Greek myths. Lucas flirts with the mythical but ultimately is creating a popular entertainment that can’t go the places the myths do.

Well sure. But this is kind of my point where I'm saying Lucas is following his own take on the Greek classics. I think a lot of it formed by the pop sensibilities of what tickled him as a child - pulps.

The themes are absolutely mythic. Good/Evil, Corruption/Redemption, cyclical rises and falls, all within the context of a pulp adventure story. I'm in no way saying Lucas was writing high religion-philosophic allegory or anything. I'm saying he took those trappings and slapped them into the pulp-adventure model.

 

[tenbones]

Does anyone believe anyone at Disney is even trying to do any of this stuff?

 

[Dumarest]

I don’t see that parallel. The Greek chorus are usually lamenting, predicting doom or making ironic comment. Not giving thumbs ups and warm fuzzies.

If they had been giving literal thumbs up and cheesy grins, it would've gone beyond cheesy and crossed into so-bad-it's-good territory. Imagine Alec Guinness, Yoda puppet, and whoever-that-was doing like so at the end of Return of the Jedi:

​

 

[Dumarest]

Good/Evil, Corruption/Redemption, cyclical rises and falls, all within the context of a pulp adventure story. I'm in no way saying Lucas was writing high religion-philosophic allegory or anything. I'm saying he took those trappings and slapped them into the pulp-adventure model.

Pretty much that in the context of Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Vader killed the Emperor. The guy who single handedly brought down the Republic and the Jedi, replaced them with an Empire built on slavery and casual extermination of entire populations and that brought the Dark Side to utter dominance over the Galaxy. The man who turned him from a naive and idealistic young Jedi into a butcher, a betrayer and a murderer.

So yeah, I think redemption from a single action, an action that he gave his life to carry out, if perfect for the end of Vader's story.

It's a shame the prequels screwed the fall part of the story so badly that the redemption is almost invisible.

 

[Endless Flight]

 

[Giganotosaurus]

I don't believe Lucas knows anything/cares anything about "geek culture" in the modern-sense.

Didn't he create Star Wars and Indiana Jones as a tribute to the pulp novels and tv shows of his youth?

 

[Dumarest]

Didn't he create Star Wars and Indiana Jones as a tribute to the pulp novels and tv shows of his youth?

The old adventure serials like Flash Gordon is what I recall. Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark are both terrific interpretations of the serials that inspired them. I presume the latter film had a large dose of Secret of the Incas in its recipe.

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