This Old Argument (That Wasn’t Started by Anyone in Particular)

[Trippy]

I've got a soft spot for FATE and narrative-centric gaming in general, so I'd say that was the major innovation of the last decade.

You think narrative gaming, or even Fate for that matter, was new to the last decade?

 

[Nobby-W]

You think narrative gaming, or even Fate for that matter, was new to the last decade?

I was doing it in the 1980s - my preferences have really always leaned that way - but shoehorned into rule sets that were much more of the simulationist mindset that was in vogue in the era. FATE is the first system designed for it that could really be characterised as well supported or garnering mainstream attention. While it's not new, it was the release of the FATE Core family that got mindshare for it outside Evil Hat's own product line. It's quite a good example of the principle of 'It takes 10 years to make an overnight success.'

Innovation isn't just about coming up with some clever idea and saying 'Oh! Look! I can has innovation!' The process also involves getting others to adopt your ideas in quantity, otherwise you're just an also-ran. I think one can reasonably say that FATE Core put Evil Hat on the map and has been a significant influence on the industry, and that has certainly been a phenomenon of the last decade.

 

[Trippy]

I was doing it in the 1980s - my style and preferences have really always leaned that way - but shoehorned into rule sets that were much more of the simulationist mindset that was in vogue in the era. FATE is the first system designed for it that could really be characterised as well supported or garnering mainstream attention. While it's not new, it was the release of the FATE Core family that got mindshare for it outside Evil Hat's own product line. It's quite a good example of the principle of 'It takes 10 years to make an overnight success.'

Innovation isn't just about coming up with some clever idea and saying 'Oh! Look! I can has innovation!' The process also involves getting others to adopt your ideas in quantity, otherwise you're just an also-ran. I think one can reasonably say that FATE Core put Evil Hat on the map and has been a significant influence on the industry, and that has certainly been a phenomenon of the last decade.

It just a case of wording then really. I'm happy to accept that, for many gamers, Fate Core represents the zenith of a particular style of narrative roleplaying.

 

[Nobby-W]

It just a case of wording then really. I'm happy to accept that, for many gamers, Fate Core represents the zenith of a particular style of narrative roleplaying.

It's the first pure-narrative system (for want of a better description) to get out of the indie-niche-hipster hole and really make significant waves in the market. If you wind the clock back to (say) 1990 or so the state of the art was stuff like Traveller, D&D, GURPS, BRP derivatives or World of Darkness, of which WOD was the least simulationist in its design by far. You could certainly do story gaming with any of those systems but it's quite the stretch to say they were designed for it.

 

[Trippy]

It's the first pure-narrative system (for want of a better description) to get out of the indie-niche-hipster hole and really make significant waves in the market. If you wind the clock back to (say) 1990 or so the state of the art was stuff like Traveller, D&D, GURPS, BRP derivatives or World of Darkness, of which WOD was the least simulationist in its design by far. You could certainly do story gaming with any of those systems but it's quite the stretch to say they were designed for it.

World of Darkness games were very much marketed and designed to appeal to the pure-narrative-system-indie-niche-hipster crowd. They were very, very successful - and changed the market at the time significantly - and so people may have forgotten that.

And I've not even mentioned Ars Magica, Amber, Prince Valiant and Ghostbusters. Except I have.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Anyone who thinks that the WoD games were "narrative" doesn't understand what the term means when discussing rpg mechanics.

 

[Trippy]

Anyone who thinks that the WoD games were "narrative" doesn't understand what the term means when discussing rpg mechanics.

Oh, for fucks sake.....The Forge ended a long time ago.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Oh, for fucks sake.....The Forge ended a long time ago.

This isn't about the Forge dude, narrative mechanics are a thing, and the storytelling system has jack all to do with it. WoD was a really traditional system.

 

[Trippy]

This isn't about the Forge dude, narrative mechanics are a thing, and the storytelling system has jack all to do with it. WoD was a really traditional system.

Yes it is, because it was a mainstay of the tribal-building arguments being perpetuated by The Forge throughout it's time, and it's bullshit. Your argument here is bullshit too, on the same basis. There is no such thing as a 'traditional' roleplaying system, there are just different conventions and ideas in each individual game. If you think that 'narrative mechanics' are just one specific thing, then I have no regret in informing you that game design in general has moved on a long time ago. And, come to think of it, that is one of the best developments of the last decade.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Are you telling me that you think Storyteller has more in common with FATE than say, Fuzion or Interlock? Cause it is clearly much more in the style of the latter, and nothing like FATE.

It isn't about tribalism, it is about recognizing that there IS a difference between different styles of games, and if someone asked for a narrative system, there is no way I'd suggest WoD games to them because it just isn't a narrative system.

The Storyteller system doesn't really resemble any game that would be considered narrative in structure. It isn't about narrative mechanics being "one specific thing" it is about it literally having none of the things that make narrative systems narrative.

 

[Trippy]

Are you telling me that you think Storyteller has more in common with FATE than say, Fuzion or Interlock? Cause it is clearly much more in the style of the latter, and nothing like FATE.

Well, actually yes. So, we don't agree - which doesn't prove a thing. Why specifically has Storyteller got anything to do with these other systems? They all use different dice in different ways, but any underlying categorization you want to make beyond that is your perspective alone.

It isn't about tribalism, it is about recognizing that there IS a difference between different styles of games, and if someone asked for a narrative system, there is no way I'd suggest WoD games to them because it just isn't a narrative system.

It is exactly about tribalism - you are making spurious categories of games and their systems where there are none, and then implying some sort of value in game design because of it.

The Storyteller system doesn't really resemble any game that would be considered narrative in structure. It isn't about narrative mechanics being "one specific thing" it is about it literally having none of the things that make narrative systems narrative.

Again, you are aren't giving any facts here, just unsubstantiated categorizations which are flatly untrue. The Storyteller system actually pioneered Live-Action play and encouraged roleplaying towards narrative goals, via a personality system and Willpower point currency. It used 'dots' rather than numbers, and gave leveled descriptions of each trait to encourage diceless play. Don't tell me that these things were not all designed with the intent of facilitating narrative play.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Your insistence that categorization is universally bad is honestly deeply flawed.

Let's get rid of music genres then. There is no difference between Aqua and Bach right? It's all the same.

Categorization is a tool. The fact that people used it badly doesn't make it shitty in and of itself.

And if all categorization is bad, why would you even be trying to argue that the Storyteller system IS narrative? Like, you are the one who thinks that we shouldn't categorize them at all, so what difference does it make whether someone considers it a narrative game or not? Your objection was that FATE wasn't the first mainstream narrative game. If there are no narrative games, why are you arguing that other narrative games predate it?

Also: LARPing wasn't the Storyteller system it was the By Night system, which honestly whatever, LARPing is a related but different hobby and it has a lot of different conceits as it can't be done in the same manner as a tabletop RPG. Dots are identical to numbers, that is just a UI thing, not a system thing. There is no functional difference between 5 Perception and 5 dots in Perception.

The Willpower mechanic is the one thing that is remotely narrative, but was never really a strong focal point of the system. And even then it isn't that narrative compared to say, compels or fate points from FATE.

EDIT: A longer explanation of why Willpower isn't really like Fate Points: Willpower is a defined in Universe thing. Like, it is how much current emotional energy you have. Fate Points are entirely a meta currency.

 

[Trippy]

Your insistence that categorization is universally bad is honestly deeply flawed.

Let's get rid of music genres then. There is no difference between Aqua and Bach right? It's all the same.

Categorization is a tool. The fact that people used it badly doesn't make it shitty in and of itself.

And if all categorization is bad, why would you even be trying to argue that the Storyteller system IS narrative? Like, you are the one who thinks that we shouldn't categorize them at all, so what difference does it make whether someone considers it a narrative game or not? Your objection was that FATE wasn't the first mainstream narrative game. If there are no narrative games, why are you arguing that other narrative games predate it?

Also: LARPing wasn't the Storyteller system it was the By Night system, which honestly whatever, LARPing is a related but different hobby and it has a lot of different conceits as it can't be done in the same manner as a tabletop RPG. Dots are identical to numbers, that is just a UI thing, not a system thing. There is no functional difference between 5 Perception and 5 dots in Perception.

The Willpower mechanic is the one thing that is remotely narrative, but was never really a strong focal point of the system. And even then it isn't that narrative compared to say, compels or fate points from FATE.

No. Your use of the notion of categorization is flawed. There are categories in different types of games - board games vs card games, for example - but the categorizations you are aping from The Forge, are just bullshit distinctions based upon an prejudicial view of particular game systems and how they are used. You're no equivalent of a rock critic here.

There has always been various movements towards encouraging an emphasis on narrative in roleplaying, as opposed to tactical wargaming play, because of the roots of the hobby emerged from wargaming. The first game that explicitly referred to itself as a "Storytelling' RPG was Ars Magica, which introduced a bunch of innovations to achieve this. Other games have introduced other innovations over time towards similar goals. The attempt to 'classify' later games as being something entirely different to 'traditional' games, while essentially still following the same 'traditional' conventions of roleplaying that we've always had (describe your action - roll dice or whatever - interpret outcome), is pretentious.

Those games that actually set up themselves in ways that follow entirely different conventions, like Baron Munchausen or Fiasco, say, could be categorized in a different way. But Fate and Storyteller? Zero difference in intent - just different conventions of delivering it.

And you are wrong again - Willpower was a central part of the Storytelling system, as was creating full preludes for characters via Q&A, and the live action developments. They had the very same intent that Fate has of creating a 'narrative' mode of play with the game as it was written. The developments made in V5, more recently, with Hunger dice and the like are simply better executions at what the original intent was. There was never any desire by the Storyteller system creators to create 'simulationist' play whatsoever - and to make that suggestion is just incorrect.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Dude LARPing is an entirely different hobby and if you are going to start claiming that WoD's connection to LARPing is somehow connected to the idea of narrative play in the TTRPG hobby I'm not even sure how to address anything you are saying.

Also, I don't think the intent in all RPGs are the same at all. I think that the fact that games have very different intents and very different perspectives to be a good thing.

Why would I want all games to be trying to do the same thing?

Again: Just because people tried to using categorization as a cudgel has nothing to do with whether categorization is in and of itself a bad thing.

Diversity of intent and design goals means that we have games for all types. Do you honestly think that every person, no matter their taste is going to be equally likely to like any game? That if they like the Leverage RPG for instance, that they might also like Blades in the Dark, a system that has similar style, intent, and stance?

Of course there are people who like a little of everything (From your list I see for instance that you are one of those people. I used to be, though I find I don't like games that lean heavily into the D&D style mechanical cadence nowadays). But in general, categorization is a good tool to help people find things they like.

 

[Trippy]

Dude LARPing is an entirely different hobby and if you are going to start claiming that WoD's connection to LARPing is somehow connected to the idea of narrative play in the TTRPG hobby I'm not even sure how to address anything you are saying.

It's definitely not an entirely different hobby when the Vampire game explicitly encouraged the players around the table to mix up the two. It is an intrinsic part of the roleplaying experience outlined in the game to encourage narrative play over anything else.

Also, I don't think the intent in all RPGs are the same at all. I think that the fact that games have very different intents and very different perspectives to be a good thing.

Why would I want all games to be trying to do the same thing?

This is a straw man argument - the issue is that your categorizations have no merit. Nobody is arguing that games should try to do the same thing.

Again: Just because people tried to using categorization as a cudgel has nothing to do with whether categorization is in and of itself a bad thing.

When it's used to make pointless distinctions, and having pointless tribalism develop from it, it is.

Diversity of intent and design goals means that we have games for all types. Do you honestly think that every person, no matter their taste is going to be equally likely to like any game? That if they like the Leverage RPG for instance, that they might also like Blades in the Dark, a system that has similar style, intent, and stance?

Strawman again. Nobody is arguing against diversity in design - it's the spurious categorization that is the debate here. It has no value in gaming.

Of course there are people who like a little of everything (From your list I see for instance that you are one of those people. I used to be, though I find I don't like games that lean heavily into the D&D style mechanical cadence nowadays). But in general, categorization is a good tool to help people find things they like.

Not if the categorization is bullshit.

 

[EmperorNorton]

How is it bullshit? How do narrative mechanics not exist?

You don't think there is a difference between a game that is entirely designed to be played from an in character perspective with no mechanics that relate to anything outside of that characters abilities to interact with the world, and a game in which the player has abilities that extend beyond their character intended to allow more control of the narrative?

Also, honestly the only person who seems tribalistic here is you.

 

[robertsconley]

Anyone who thinks that the WoD games were "narrative" doesn't understand what the term means when discussing rpg mechanics.

I am in agreement with you in this especially for the first wave of products released in the 90s. My view that WoD always emphasized roleplaying. Acting as the character even though their situation and personality was very different than your own. But WoD also worked when pretendi got to be a monster with super powers which turned out to be the default. Even tho White Wolf and its successors kept trying to promote the roleplaying aspect.

 

[Trippy]

How is it bullshit? How do narrative mechanics not exist?

Again, straw man. I'm not saying they don't exist - I am saying that your classification of what is or isn't a narrative mechanic is wrong.

You don't think there is a difference between a game that is entirely designed to be played from an in character perspective with no mechanics that relate to anything outside of that characters abilities to interact with the world, and a game in which the player has abilities that extend beyond their character?

No. I'm saying that you fail to recognize when different games have precisely the same intent, nor how the genealogy of game design has emerged over time.

 

[Bunch]

I'm just gonna give my two cents. You two aren't going to agree. Your points have been made and are appreciated.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Again, straw man. I'm not saying they exist - I am saying that your definition of what is or isn't a narrative mechanic is wrong.

No. I'm saying that you are too blinkered to recognize when different games have precisely the same intent.

And I think you are so stuck on beating up a long dead argument that pissed you off that you can't see the differences.

The Storyteller system was never designed to give narrative control to players. It was designed around the stance of the player as the character. And that is fine. That is a perfectly good way to play a game. But the game was not designed around an authorial or directorial stance for players. That isn't wrong, its just different.

(I could argue that perhaps with its freeform Magic that Mage might have gotten close, but it was still all in character ability. Just because the characters themselves have the ability to reality warp, doesn't make the mechanic itself narrative).

 

[Trippy]

And I think you are so stuck on beating up a long dead argument that pissed you off that you can't see the differences.

Its hardly long dead when you've just brought it up here.

The Storyteller system was never designed to give narrative control to players. It was designed around in character RP. And that is fine. That is a perfectly good way to play a game. But the game was not designed around a authorial or directorial stance for players. That isn't wrong, its just different.

(I could argue that perhaps with its freeform Magic that Mage might have gotten close, but it was still all in character ability. Just because the characters themselves have the ability to reality warp, doesn't make the mechanic itself narrative).

Yes it was. That is why players designed characters through a Prelude, and earn Willpower points as a currency via playing their character towards personality-driven goals. The general mode of play that was encouraged was sandbox (City based) and character driven rather than plot driven. How effective it was at delivering this, compared to modern designs is up for debate - but again, the intent was clear and game design has a genealogy to it. There are earlier games than Vampire than had plot-editing mechanics driven by PCs (eg James Bond and Toon). This is just one idea in a bucket of different ideas of how to achieve narrative ends - and it is not the sole qualification of a 'narrative mechanic'.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Sandbox and Character driven has nothing to do with narrative design? Like OD&D is both of those things and no one would ever in their right mind claim it was a narrative design.

Also regaining emotional energy by achieving personality driven goals is... kind of how the real world works? It isn't acting outside of the character.

Also Preludes were very much just one on one traditional sessions. There was nothing narrative in MECHANICS about those either. It's definitely nothing like the Phase Trio from FATE which is what I would call a Narrative mechanic.

 

[Trippy]

Sandbox and Character driven has nothing to do with narrative design? Like OD&D is both of those things and no one would ever in their right mind claim it was a narrative design.

Well, your are wrong about that, too then. Character driven is literally allowing players to make their own stories for their own characters. And if OD&D had both of those things, then it would be as much of a narrative game as any other. The point that most early OD&D modules weren't actually like that and instead, tended to resemble war-games with maps with miniatures, merely demonstrates how there has always been a tension between a narrative style and a wargaming style in the hobby.

Also regaining emotional energy by achieving personality driven goals is... kind of how the real world works? It isn't acting outside of the character.

It's an abstraction rather than a simulation, as a point of order, and again meta gaming is not the sole arbiter of what makes a game narrative or not.

Also Preludes were very much just one on one traditional sessions. There was nothing narrative in MECHANICS about those either. It's definitely nothing like the Phase Trio from FATE which is what I would call a Narrative mechanic.

Actually, the way in which preludes were sometimes used to help choose traits in play, which is precisely what Fate suggests as an option, is pretty similar in my book. In any case, it's just another means towards the same end again. You are merely picking and choosing what you consider to be narrative from your own narrow and selective criteria. It's not a required criterion of a Narrative to have meta-currency mechanic, and vice versa is true also.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Ok, there is literally no reason to try to have a conversation with you, because your basic idea is "If you completely ignore what people mean when they say narrative mechanics, then it has no meaning!"

 

[Trippy]

Ok, there is literally no reason to try to have a conversation with you, because your basic idea is "If you completely ignore what people mean when they say narrative mechanics, then it has no meaning!"

Which, in other words, means you've lost the argument. Well done.

What you mean when you say 'narrative mechanics', based on meta currencies in the main, is a narrow and ultimately meaningless definition. A 'narrative mechanic' is any in-game system that aids the creation of a story.

 

[EmperorNorton]

If it makes you feel better to think me walking away from a disagreement that I feel isn't being had in good faith is you "winning the argument" go right ahead.

I think the fact that you care that I "lost" says a lot more about why you had the conversation though. Anyway, I'm out.

 

[Dumarest]

You two aren't going to agree.

Whereas I believe in the end they'll be like

​

 

[Trippy]

If it makes you feel better to think me walking away from a disagreement that I feel isn't being had in good faith is you "winning the argument" go right ahead.

I think the fact that you care that I "lost" says a lot more about why you had the conversation though. Anyway, I'm out.

Which is yet another way of saying you lost the argument.

 

[TristramEvans]

Oh, girls, girls, you're both pretty. Can I go home now?

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[Nobby-W]

 

[robertsconley]

T Trippy the problem you are against one person’s definition without giving one of your own. Moreso Norton has concisely explained his reasoning

What you mean when you say 'narrative mechanics', based on meta currencies in the main, is a narrow and ultimately meaningless definition. A 'narrative mechanic' is any in-game system that aids the creation of a story.

Except it is obvious to most of the tabletop hobby is that there is a difference between

a) pretending to be character in a setting having interesting adventures
b) being part of a group using the mechanics of a game to collaborate on creating a story.

both can be fun but they are not the same kind of activity and have different mindsets. And yes the emphasis on metagame mechanics is warranted because that is primary mechanical distinction between the two type of activities.

If it seem small to you it because what distinguish the different forms is focus. It is eaully hard pressed to distinguish between a wargame campaign and a tabletop roleplaying campaign. Mechwarrior the RPG versus BattleTech the wargame or Melee/Wizard versus the Fantasy Trip. The focus of wargames is to achieve victory conditions outlined by a scenario by using the rules of the game.

Likewise the difference between a and b is that in a the story emerge after the adventure or campaign is played out and is constructed in the same way as anybody else describing an event or sequence events in the past. Like a trip to a location, a sporting event, or a biography. The focus on pretending to be a character having an interesting adventures.

While in the latter the focus is to deliberately construct a narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. Using the same tools and technique that novelists, screenplay writers, and other authors used for decades if not centuries. Except in this case it is by using the rules of a game.

In addition in this thread you have consistently conflated roleplaying with collaborative storytelling. As I explained previously they are not the same activity. One involves acting as a character much in a same way an actor with the difference is that you don't have a script to follow so have to improvise all the character's responses based on the circumstances. The other is use the traditional structures and tolls of constructing to work with a group in coming up with a story. Typically and not always with each players being responsible for one particular character in the narrative.

Finally because all of this is based on focus not rules, hybrids are the normal not the exception. But it doesn't mean that categories don't exist. In fact it is foolish as it gets in the way of new developments. It is important to understand what make certain types of game work. Not to keep the categories pure but to make one's design decision a deliberate choice. For example somebody would look at all this and figure out how to make a narrative wargame work.

 

[Trippy]

T Trippy the problem you are against one person’s definition without giving one of your own.

I did. You didn't read it. I said: "A 'narrative mechanic' is any in-game system that aids the creation of a story".

Anybody who arbitrarily decides it's just one specific type of mechanism - like a meta-gaming currency, for instance - is merely making their own arbitrary categorization, which is meaningless in context.

In addition in this thread you have consistently conflated roleplaying with collaborative storytelling.

No I haven't. You've not been reading what I am saying. I said: "Those games that actually set up themselves in ways that follow entirely different conventions, like Baron Munchausen or Fiasco, say, could be categorized in a different way. But Fate and Storyteller? Zero difference in intent - just different conventions of delivering it."

You are making straw man arguments.

But it doesn't mean that categories don't exist. In fact it is foolish as it gets in the way of new developments. It is important to understand what make certain types of game work.

They are not new developments - I can site these types of mechanics in James Bond 007 from 1983, for example, and they are not legitimate categorizations for games, because a single mechanic is a poor measure on what a game is setting out to achieve. They don't aid any understanding of game design at all - they promote a poor understanding of how games work, because, a meta-game mechanic does not necessarily promote story and vice versa.

And again, this is all just a hangover of discredited ideas from The Forge - which has long since finished.

 

[Lessa]

Lol at T Trippy and EmperorNorton getting pissed at each other for such pointless stuff. I bet you're two old farts with white pubic hair. Act like it, you morons.

And Vampire wanted to be the first indie/narrative game but was too pussy to try and so the Fate and Forge crowds showed proper balls and took the reins. Well, Vampire came out of the closet with 5e. Better late than never.

 

[Jetstream]

Oh, girls, girls, you're both pretty. Can I go home now?

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No, they’re not.

 

[Trippy]

Lol at T Trippy and EmperorNorton getting pissed at each other for such pointless stuff. I bet you're two old farts with white pubic hair. Act like it, you morons.

And Vampire wanted to be the first indie/narrative game but was too pussy to try and so the Fate and Forge crowds showed proper balls and took the reins. Well, Vampire came out of the closet with 5e. Better late than never.

Ars Magica was the first to call itself a 'storytelling game', and was entirely independently written and distributed in the late 1980s. The Forge wasn't even a concept at the time, and again, what people are failing to do here is understand how the genealogy of game design doesn't just happen at once. Vampire introduced loads of ideas about how to create stories in it's game - had more success than Fate ever had, which is why people can't remember its indie roots - and yes, I agree that V5 was a refinement on all those ideas. All Fate did, really was to adapt a mechanic from Fudge and then adapt various ideas that had come from various sources, package it and market it accordingly. People's memories are short, and no Fate does not deserve to be classified as a different type of game accordingly.

As for your first point, you can drink your own piss. You are no pontiff.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Lol at T Trippy and EmperorNorton getting pissed at each other for such pointless stuff. I bet you're two old farts with white pubic hair. Act like it, you morons.

You mean like leaving the conversation entirely?

I dont get what is with this forum and jumping in to mock and insult any disagreement, especially after one person has exited the conversation. Do you want things to actually calm down or do you want to stoke the fire?

Cause I can tell you which of the two calling someone who excused themselves from the conversation a moron does.

And dont mistake me commenting on this with me being upset angry etc so you can do the lolumad thing. I just find this a recurring issue on this forum that I wanted to address.

 

[Trippy]

I just find this a recurring issue on this forum that I wanted to address.

Which is fair enough. But you are still wrong.

 

[TristramEvans]

I dont get what is with this forum and jumping in to mock and insult any disagreement, especially after one person has exited the conversation. Do you want things to actually calm down or do you want to stoke the fire?

Pretty sure we mock just about everything here, you shouldn't take it personally,. It's not an attack on you or your POV, it's simply exasperation at an internet argument we've all seen before, know isn't going to go anywhere, and is a cathartic attempt to reintroduce a tone of humour and lightheartedness when the thread is getting heavy.

FWIW, I think you are correct, but Trippy is also correct from his POV, that being that he's using a different definition of what constitutes a Narrative game. Specifically, you're talking about a system approach, and he's talking about a playstyle.

 

[Trippy]

I'm kind of curious what they're going to do with Werewolf 5E. I read somewhere it's set for 2021.

It is slated for release in 2021 from Hunters Entertainment (licensed from Paradox/White Wolf). Notably, Modiphius isn't producing it and are just concentrating on Vampire: The Masquerade 5th. Hunters Entertainment have said that the mechanics will be broadly similar to V5, but different in specific areas. I'd expect it to have a more action-orientated approach, so maybe the combat system will be more involved.

The thing I am interested in is whether they will hold over an equivalent mechanic to Hunger in V5 for Rage in W5. If such a mechanic is used, it will change the gameplay somewhat - as it will mean transformations will become more involuntary and potentially negative in outcome (rather than just a super transformation, as it is). I'd like it if it does.

A different and uncommon definition.

It's not uncommon - it's the normal use of the term. It's just a group, mainly online, persist in trying to assert a particular definition of the term 'narrative' which is so narrow as to miss the real point of what narrative really means. I am resisting that assertion here. It makes no difference whether or not you are tired of playing Vampire - definitions of terms don't just change because you prefer one game over another and this is the absurdity of the argument I am resisting. It's bullshit.

 

[TristramEvans]

It's not uncommon - it's the normal use of the term.

Normal people don't use that term