Throwing the werewolf out with the bathwater.

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Randomly, but related to WW/Werewolf: I also wanna say I don't think the premise of ecoterrorism is sillier than it was in the '90s. Big corporations greenwashing themselves doesn't mean climate change and the environment are solved problems. There's still plenty of active radical environmental/climate action going on, and I bet I'll see way more in my lifetime.
 
We used the Complete Thief a lot in our games, one of the best 2e splat books I thought. The Assasin was a pretty crappy class in 1e imo, a big favourite of powergamers who loved to abuse the poorly designed assasination ability, so I thought the 2e take, similar to the Bard, was way better, although I only used it as a NPC class.
So what are you arguing with here?
 
So what are you arguing with here?

My point is that your claim that 2e removed Assasins from the game is inaccurate when they were made available as a playable class in the same year as the PHB was released.

I didn't use them as a playable class because no one I played 2e with ever wanted to play an Assasin, in my experience they were mostly attractive to tryhards (nowadays called edgelords) and min-maxers that I encountered when playing 1e, just like the equally ill-conceived and poorly designed Anti-Paladin.

And my point is that your claim that all the 'sharp edges' like Devils/Demons were filed off with 2e makes little sense when Devils/Demons were back and a bigger part of the game only a couple of years later into 2e's run.

And above and beyond those facts, I just don't buy that the mere inclusion of Devils/Demons in AD&D made it 'edgy' outside of the narrow confines of a very specific, narrow and largely American context.

Outside of that context Devils/Demons imagery in AD&D was more goofy and amusing than scary. AD&D's demon imagery is about as edgy as a VW van with a wizard and a balrog painted on the side. Something that most people who weren't kids were more likely to laugh at, not be afraid of.

A RL example, in my junior high we had this painted as a mural on a school wall by a student and no one blinked. Whereas, say, a Butthole Surfers album cover would have caused a collective aneurysm.

I think a lot of people are mistaking what they thought was edgy when they were kids or teens for actual edgy material. Commerical (A)D&D was always kids stuff contentwise.

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What would you do if you created werewolves who had regional associations. Also, isn't Werewolf the Forsaken, big on this?
 
I mean, I was a D&D player in the '80s and I think it's significant..! When I was an 8-year-old kid (maybe 9, I forget) my mother was making a "pin-the-tail-on-the-demon" display for my birthday party using a traced/copied drawing of one of the 1st edition Monster Manual demons. (Not one of the naked female ones, it wasn't *that* wild a household... >_< It was a Type III Demon IIRC)

Certainly, it bummed me out, and was one of the factors making me turn away from D&D for many years (mostly switching to Call of Cthulhu), that they stopped using the words "demon" and "devil" in response to the fundamentalist Christian freakout over D&D/Satanism. They wimped out and watered down part of the sinister appeal of the game. While looking back, 2e had some good stuff, I was happy to see the literal demons & devils return in 3rd edition, which not entirely coincidentally is when I started playing D&D again after a 12-year drought.

It annoys me when anime & manga things like Yu-Gi-Oh! are translated to replace the words "demon" and "devil" with "fiend" too. Although that stuff is clearly aimed at a kid/YA audience (certainly, a younger audience than D&D) so in that case I realize it's silly to complain.

Anyway, if you're not trying to "get away with something", why get up in the morning? >_< What I'm trying to say is.... edginess 4ever!!

Jason

Fair enough, but I played D&D in the 80s too and actually thought it made sense that the Demons and Devils had their own names for themselves, in their own weirdo languages.
 
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Weren't all the edges (such as they were) filed off when they got rid of Devils and Demons and ...

No argument. We all have different impressions.
 
Randomly, but related to WW/Werewolf: I also wanna say I don't think the premise of ecoterrorism is sillier than it was in the '90s. Big corporations greenwashing themselves doesn't mean climate change and the environment are solved problems. There's still plenty of active radical environmental/climate action going on, and I bet I'll see way more in my lifetime.

My issue with WW: A is the same one I have for most WoD games, the lore is absurdly convoluted and overwritten. When I start to read the lore for WoD I get the distinct vibe of the kind of second-rate 'worldbuilding' you find in fanfic.

As to the ecoterrorism thing, I agree that a cell of werewolves who are ecoterrorists makes sense and is a fun idea but as an overarching idea for the game setting it is overdetermined and too narrow imo.

What would also be interesting is some kind of rival faction of NPC Ecofascists. A term I used to find hilarious but has become perhaps a bit too scary and relevant these days.
 
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My point is that your claim that 2e removed Assasins from the game is inaccurate when they were made available as a playable class in the same year as the PHB was released.

I didn't use them as a playable class because no one I played 2e with ever wanted to play an Assasin, in my experience they were mostly attractive to tryhards (nowadays called edgelords) and min-maxers that I encountered when playing 1e, just like the equally ill-conceived and poorly designed Anti-Paladin.

And my point is that your claim that all the 'sharp edges' like Devils/Demons were filed off with 2e makes little sense when Devils/Demons were back and a bigger part of the game only a couple of years later into 2e's run.
Ok I get it. My main point was that Wotc didn't suddenly make D&D less edgy when they took over. Hence my confusion as my points were in support of that point.

For some reason you are are making a big deal of a rather lukewarm concession that 2e was less edgy than 1e which you seem to have misremembered in somewhat different terms than I actually wrote. Maybe it wasn't really? I don't really care about 1e. It was certainly perceived to be as there was a big deal made at the time of WotC bringing these things back and that was the context in which I raised them.
 
Ok I get it. My main point was that Wotc didn't suddenly make D&D less edgy when they took over. Hence my confusion as my points were in support of that point.

For some reason you are are making a big deal of a rather lukewarm concession that 2e was less edgy than 1e which you seem to have misremembered in somewhat different terms than I actually wrote. Maybe it wasn't really? I don't really care about 1e. It was certainly perceived to be as there was a big deal made at the time of WotC bringing these things back and that was the context in which I raised them.

Yeah , looking back I do see that you did qualify it with a 'what little there was' which I should have taken into consideration.
 
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Prepping for a Mage the Awakening game (I'd not played WW since Mage the Ascension was new). And oh goodness... the was the hardest read I've ever done....
I always liked Ascension as a pseudo secret superhero game :grin:
Don't know about Awakening, I read bits of the new Werewolf and was like "uh? uh? no." Not because the lore was sillier, but because the lore didn't fit my idea for were-critters (My favorites by the way are Witchcraft which manages to make all the folklore generally work within the setting.)
 
I always liked Ascension as a pseudo secret superhero game :grin:
Yup. I also considered it as running the way TORG should have run.

Don't know about Awakening, I read bits of the new Werewolf and was like "uh? uh? no." Not because the lore was sillier, but because the lore didn't fit my idea for were-critters (My favorites by the way are Witchcraft which manages to make all the folklore generally work within the setting.)
My favourite folklore was The Howling (the books, not the movies). So I kinda nuked the WW weenie stuff, ...
 
Yup. I also considered it as running the way TORG should have run.


My favourite folklore was The Howling (the books, not the movies). So I kinda nuked the WW weenie stuff, ...
I've never read the books. What were they like?
 
As to the ecoterrorism thing, I agree that a cell of werewolves who are ecoterrorists makes sense and is a fun idea but as an overarching idea for the game setting it is overdetermined and too narrow imo.
That's a fair criticism! Yeah, IIRC (it's been ages since I read it) 1st edition Werewolf does have a much more "we're the good guys fighting the Wyrm" vibe compared to the more tangled factions and moralities of Vampire. I still think it's a cool idea but maybe it would get repetitive over time.
 
I've never read the books. What were they like?

There's an opening scene where the werewolves are driven from a village in Romania or somewhere but really it's a lot more traditional. Lycanthropy is a disease passed by bite. Werewolves live in small villages and are xenophobic. They have the whole monster-within thing but as the books progress, it's plain it's by choice.

In the books, the werewolves are mostly the bad guys.
 
I only read the first one, but it was very...uh...rapey

It had a rape sequence in the start. Which causes the protagonist to do stuff (move to an isolated village). Way tamer than the movie. But otherwise I think that's a mischaracterisation (and one that would probably discount a large percentage of horror novels).
 
Yeah, pretty much (As does Buffy/Angel etc.) Although I'm familiar with it, and was hoping to hear of less familiar games.
If you've already read Human(ish) and the Unisystem games, then my go-to suggestions are Nightlife (altho tracking down copies is difficult because it's OOP and not legally available online anymore), Everlasting (everything except magicians companion is on drivethrurpg last I checked, and the MC is only relevant if you want to use ritual magic or play as Osirians), Feed (free on drivethrurpg so it's the easiest to get), and maybe Vampire: Undeath if you want a lesson in what to avoid (OOP and not legally available online). There's also Urban Shadows and Monsterhearts, both readily available on drivethrurpg, if you like PbtA mechanics. I like reading through different games to get ideas and inspirations for my own work.


It's less that they're motivated by nostalgia (as they view nostalgia as "problematic" generally) but that they hate Chronicles because others have told them for years that they should hate it on principle.

From my experience, Chronicles/New WoD always got this bad rep and even when WW tried to push it as the right way to play, people still were dismissive of it. The fact that so many people refused to play the New WoD/Chronicles 1E and just hung onto their old books and played the old games didn't help matters.

Like, Paradox/Nu-WW actively hate the cool VTM and WTA of the 90's but they don't want to use the Requiem name or setting, because that's bad in their eyes for some odd reason.

They need to have the old Masquerade name and legacy attached to it, so they can rewrite the game as they please and I wouldn't be surprised if a few jackasses at Nu-WW actually think that forcing the 5th Edition setting is enough to keep people away from the icky "problematic" badwrongfun of the older versions of the game whereas if they actually start officially calling it a new setting altogether would be a repeat of Requiem and they don't want to do that.

The only major figurehead from the old days still with Nu-WW is Justin Achilli and my thoughts on him are a rabbit hole all unto itself and is best discussed elsewhere.
I hate the edition wars on general principle and I don't like being told that I have to like a particular thing and hate another thing to fit in. Screw that shit. I actually liked Chronicles because I went into it blind and though it was interesting (altho nowadays I'm more frustrated by the limitations of the format than anything else). Anyway, that's why I prefer to work on my own original settings. I encourage everyone to do the same rather than waste time on Paradox's bullshit. Bloodlines 2 is gonna be a disaster that spits in the face of the original if the signs weren't already obvious.

You like trenchcoats and katanas, right? My setting is full of secret societies of vampire superheroes because I really don't give an eff about elitism and mall goth emo nihilism. If I made a roleplaying game about it, then one of the core splats would be angels who go around helping the poor and fighting demons.

Randomly, but related to WW/Werewolf: I also wanna say I don't think the premise of ecoterrorism is sillier than it was in the '90s. Big corporations greenwashing themselves doesn't mean climate change and the environment are solved problems. There's still plenty of active radical environmental/climate action going on, and I bet I'll see way more in my lifetime.
Perhaps, but it's not really sensible for the same crowd pushing renewables and social media addiction to then turn around and write a game that says renewables are a lie and werewolves should destroy civilization and practice violent eugenics like they did in the good old days. I think the video game Scorn (which I just played this weekend) does a better job pushing an environmentalist message by simply showing you the ruins of the world and the civilization that destroyed it.

My issue with WW: A is the same one I have for most WoD games, the lore is absurdly convoluted and overwritten. When I start to read the lore for WoD I get the distinct vibe of the kind of second-rate 'worldbuilding' you find in fanfic.
This is my problem too. 90% of it just isn't relevant to play at all. Apparently most fans just buy the books to read the lore and don't actually play it. I've gotten so much grief from that crowd during my stint in the fandom that I pretty much hate the IP now. In my own writing, I prefer to focus on character interactions and ignore lore that can't be used pragmatically. At most I might mention that a feud between a secret society of demon hunters and a secret society of diabolists goes back to at least the New Kingdom in Ancient Egypt, but I'm not going to give a pointless exposition dump on what happened to the exclusion of the actual story, plot, and characters I'm writing. Lore is just reciting factoids and there's no franchise that people invest in just because of the lore, despite what all those influencer videos reciting factoids might suggest. People most readily invest in characters, not lore. That's why every famous IP stems from a story with interesting characters, not a bland documentary reciting factoids in isolation.
 
It had a rape sequence in the start. Which causes the protagonist to do stuff (move to an isolated village). Way tamer than the movie. But otherwise I think that's a mischaracterisation (and one that would probably discount a large percentage of horror novels).

Eh, different folks have different tolerance levels. I found the book a bit lurid for my tastes in that regard, probably because I don't like the trope employed : assault to establish a woman's character. It was "tamer" than something like The Entity sure, but not the majority of horror novels I've consumed over the years.
 
Perhaps, but it's not really sensible for the same crowd pushing renewables and social media addiction to then turn around and write a game that says renewables are a lie and werewolves should destroy civilization.
But the dramatic tension between wanting to destroy civilization and realistically needing-civilization/not-wanting-nearly-everyone-to-die is THE COOLEST! XD That's what all the neatest sympathetic villains (such as werewolves) are about!! Oh well...
 
I was wondering i
If you've already read Human(ish) and the Unisystem games, then my go-to suggestions are Nightlife (altho tracking down copies is difficult because it's OOP and not legally available online anymore), Everlasting (everything except magicians companion is on drivethrurpg last I checked, and the MC is only relevant if you want to use ritual magic or play as Osirians), Feed (free on drivethrurpg so it's the easiest to get), and maybe Vampire: Undeath if you want a lesson in what to avoid (OOP and not legally available online). There's also Urban Shadows and Monsterhearts, both readily available on drivethrurpg, if you like PbtA mechanics. I like reading through different games to get ideas and inspirations for my own work.
I've owned (but don't anymore) Nightlife. I don't own Human(ish) or Abyss and I'm curious about those..
 
Eh, different folks have different tolerance levels. I found the book a bit lurid for my tastes in that regard, probably because I don't like the trope employed : assault to establish a woman's character. It was "tamer" than something like The Entity sure, but not the majority of horror novels I've consumed over the years.
I get that. It was also published in 1977.

This was the era when assault on women was the main motivation in many stories.
 
But the dramatic tension between wanting to destroy civilization and realistically needing-civilization/not-wanting-nearly-everyone-to-die is THE COOLEST! XD That's what all the neatest sympathetic villains (such as werewolves) are about!! Oh well...

Yeah, anti-civilization talk by people in RL is bizarre but for werewolves?

Makes sense they'd like to tear it all down and return everything to the woods and hills.
 
In trashy pulp horror, yeah.
In mainstream thriller, horror, drama, violence against woman has been used for decades as a primary motivator for male protagonists.

The Howling at least has the woman being the protagonist.
 
But the dramatic tension between wanting to destroy civilization and realistically needing-civilization/not-wanting-nearly-everyone-to-die is THE COOLEST! XD That's what all the neatest sympathetic villains (such as werewolves) are about!! Oh well...
Adding one ecofascist faction as an antagonist (and sometimes protagonist if interested) sounds fine to me, but it's too anti-human, hypocritical and niche for me to accept as the game premise unless it's a tiny one-book game. Also: WW shot themselves in the foot by making pollution the goal of an evil demon god rather than the unintentional result of human greed and stupidity, which ruins the allegory.

What I find more interesting is something like the vampires in the Ultraviolet tv show. They're environmentalists purely for pragmatic reasons (aside from the vampires defying physics, the show otherwise takes place in a purely materialist universe as far as we know) and otherwise are heartless monsters that see humans as cattle and raw materials. I've seen a few people on discord suggest a similar idea when the topic came up in our conversations, and I remember playing a VN years ago where one of the vampire bosses had basically the same goal. It's sufficient for a faction, I suppose.

I was wondering i

I've owned (but don't anymore) Nightlife. I don't own Human(ish) or Abyss and I'm curious about those..
Human(ish) is conceptually similar to Nightlife in some ways but more focused on the inevitable deterioration of the characters and puts little attention on worldbuilding. Abyss is a darkly comedic urban fantasy that takes place in a world where everyone ignores the paranormal despite extremely public bizarre situations like Tokyo vanishing and Tír na nÓg showing up on satellite maps after centuries of being hidden. The vampire section in particular is hilarious because it parodies the pretentiousness/romanticism: ABYSS vampires are soulless, have no memory of their human lives, they're compulsive liars with huge egos that make up elaborate backstories for themselves, and their global vampire council has no actual power and exists only for the sake of vanity and funding an invasion of Transylvania (which is occupied by the world's highest density of werewolves for some reason) for reasons unknown. I like it.

Yeah, anti-civilization talk by people in RL is bizarre but for werewolves?

Makes sense they'd like to tear it all down and return everything to the woods and hills.
What I think would be hilarious is if someone wrote rural werewolves and based them on actual rural cultures and not these bizarre ecofascists invented by self-loathing cityfolk who never worked a day in their lives. Oh wait, Southern Vampire Mysteries already did that.
 
Yeah, anti-civilization talk by people in RL is bizarre but for werewolves?

Makes sense they'd like to tear it all down and return everything to the woods and hills.
Yeah. And since werewolves are fantasy and it's all made up anyway, I don't see any disconnect with this mindset aligning with (a caricature of?) modern-day environmental extremists. Maybe the werewolves have been wanting this all along, since before the Industrial Revolution, and the few humans who believe this are just a pale shadow of (or perhaps influenced by) the werewolves. The whole premise of White Wolf (and Kult, and many other secret-occult games) is that human society and history is manipulated by Supernatural Forces, after all.

(And about the idea that the existence of the Wyrm lets human polluters off the hook in a kind of Captain Planet "Pollution is just caused by a few bad guys" way.... I mean kiiiiiiiinda but I think the more fun interpretation is that it's like a literalized metaphor. The point of monsters and demons is generally to externalize human evil into a form where you can beat it up, like Godzilla beating up the Smog Monster. Everything's supernatural in White Wolf so either humans and vampires are pawns of the Wyrm, or the Wyrm is an embodiment of the evils of humans and vampires, who cares whether the chicken or the egg came first, etc.)
 
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When I wrote an ecofascist faction in my brainstorming doc, I did it in satirical fashion. The group are 1960s ecoterrorist hippies who stole the secret of lycanthropy from a First Nations wizard, then used their new powers to murder migrant workers on logging and mining operations. Other werewolf gangs despise them as lunatics. (I believe I was inspired by an Osprey Publishing book, but I don’t remember the details.)
 
That would work as well:gunslinger:!


Yeah, I'd rather say that the objections to fictional organizations working in a way that has close analogues in our contemporary reality is nothing short of pathetic.
Yeah, there's a very shocking and fundamental ignorance of how countries, people's and cultures that aren't the US/UK work.
 
Yeah, there's a very shocking and fundamental ignorance of how countries, people's and cultures that aren't the US/UK work.
I disagree.
Some of those organisations that are being ignored are actually working in the USA:thumbsup:.
 
Honestly, I like CoD/CofD and Werewolf the Forsaken 2e (not 1e, 2e).

I also like Mage the Awakening.
 
Honestly, I like CoD/CofD and Werewolf the Forsaken 2e (not 1e, 2e).

I also like Mage the Awakening.
I liked the presentation back in the day, but now I felt the premises were too dependent on parochial monomyths. They suffer immensely from an identity crisis where they couldn't decided how similar/different they wanted to be compared to their WoD predecessors and this resulted in a half-baked mishmash of ideas, which IMO has only gotten worse in the 2e. I would've preferred if they had multiple competing religions similar to Requiem. Not to mention that, despite wanting to streamline the complexities inherited from WoD, they still made the ridiculous mistake of having everyone use different subsystems for powers and magic rather than a unified system like Everlasting used. They make no attempt to have the factions crossover, so while they advertise easier intersplat play in practice it's just a mess. I do think CoD was and is vastly more creative than all editions of WoD because the writers had more freedom to make up stuff like bloodlines, lodges and legacies (peaking in Lost and Vigil and then going horribly wrong) rather than be enslaved to repetitive uninteresting metaplot nostalgia ruts, but that's about it.

In my urban fantasy, all splats would use unified guidelines for inventing powers with room for customizing them to suit different themes. The settings would be written so that all the splats interact on a regular basis: vampires, werewolves, magicians, escapees, animates, mummies, whatever would all mingle and form interspecies factions and so on. Something like Urban Shadows or Liminal is an example of what I'm going for.
 
In my urban fantasy, all splats would use unified guidelines for inventing powers with room for customizing them to suit different themes. The settings would be written so that all the splats interact on a regular basis: vampires, werewolves, magicians, escapees, animates, mummies, whatever would all mingle and form interspecies factions and so on. Something like Urban Shadows or Liminal is an example of what I'm going for.
That in many ways was Nightlife.
 
Ultraviolet rocked the house. Was it re=made for the USA?
 
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