Tunnels & Trolls Bundle of Holding + Chatty Thread

KrakaJak

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One of the best Soloable RPGs has a big Bundle of Holding going on right now. It's currently at a really good deal (20ish dollars for the upgraded collection)

Figured this would a good place to let people her know, and maybe even start a T&T chatty thread (since it is one of my fave RPGs).



I was most happy to see T&Ts collective combat make a return in Vampire: the Masquerade 5th edition.
 
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Weru

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T&T was my first RPG. It warped my tiny mind. I love it, well I love 5th ed, lukewarm on other versions. Played it quite a lot before my group moved onto B/X, Runequest, Traveller, MERP and every other boxed set we could get our grubby hands on. To this day I still feel like T&T does stuff in a way I just prefer. Not sure if it really is any better, more like I just bonded hard with it before trying other games. Would love to run a T&T campaign sometime.
 

Gringnr

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I love T&T, warts and all. Currently running a pbp here. I need to look at the BoH, but I probably have it all already.
 

KrakaJak

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T&T was my first RPG. It warped my tiny mind. I love it, well I love 5th ed, lukewarm on other versions. Played it quite a lot before my group moved onto B/X, Runequest, Traveller, MERP and every other boxed set we could get our grubby hands on. To this day I still feel like T&T does stuff in a way I just prefer. Not sure if it really is any better, more like I just bonded hard with it before trying other games. Would love to run a T&T campaign sometime.
A lot of the way Tunnels & Trolls does things is still pretty unique. It has not been iterated on very much over the years, but I think it's because they pretty much nailed the design right out of the gate. It's kind of it's own paradigm.
 

Halda

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I really wish they would put up the 5.5 edition on T&T for sale as a PDF. I really like what that gave you. It is weird you can get the deluxe edition from 2015, 1st ed, 4th end and even 5th ed, but no 5.5 on DriveThruRPG :sad:
 

Gringnr

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I really wish they would put up the 5.5 edition on T&T for sale as a PDF. I really like what that gave you. It is weird you can get the deluxe edition from 2015, 1st ed, 4th end and even 5th ed, but no 5.5 on DriveThruRPG :sad:
I picked up a softcover of 5.5 last month from Flying Buffalo. Their website is f'ed, you have to email them directly bto get accurate stock levels on anything. If their website says it's out of stock, it may not be. What I'm saying is, if you want 5.5, you might be able to get it. Unless you only want it in PDF, in which case you're SOL.
 

AsenRG

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I picked up a softcover of 5.5 last month from Flying Buffalo. Their website is f'ed, you have to email them directly bto get accurate stock levels on anything. If their website says it's out of stock, it may not be. What I'm saying is, if you want 5.5, you might be able to get it. Unless you only want it in PDF, in which case you're SOL.
And probably not even then...

I don't have experience with Flying Buffalo, but I ran Fates Worse Than Death from a PDF before it was officially published in PDF. And it was all legal.
How?
I registered on the forum of Vajra and started a thread asking whether there is a way to get the PDF.
The author explained politely that he wants to sell his physical copies first.
I explained equally politely that 1) I'm a PDF-only guy (it was true at the time, and it's still mostly true) and 2) shipping to Bulgaria would be worth more than the price of the book. So I wasn't going to pirate it, but I'm not going to pay the shipping, either. So if he's not willing to sell the PDF, I'd have to pick another system and setting for my next campaign - and I already have plenty of those, what with thousands of PDFs on my name at Drivethru.
Thus he sold me the PDF, commenting that, when the option is between someone playing his games or another game, he prefers people playing his games:grin:.

And then I made him an offer for his other books, and I know at least one guy from my group bought FWTD as well. In the end, we all had fun, and I even became a playtester of the next supplement "Price of Power".
I think he found our approach to the four adventures in it quite funny, too. I interspersed them between events in my third FWTD campaign at the time and my wife broke her personal record by resolving one of those in less than 15 minutes... The previous record was about an hour, I think, in a completely different system.
You can now guess why I don't use many ready-made adventures, can't you:devil:?

My point is: it never hurts to ask:thumbsup:.
 

Jenx

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I backed Deluxe but never played it. The appeal of T&T was that I didn't have to grind my old brain through an inch thick book to play. Sure the basics might be at the front but I like the smaller books and earlier versions as they do all you need them to do. I'll echo 5.5 as the sweet spot. 6e was the Shipman thing as far as I know and 7 was actually pretty cute in the tin thing. Still have that somewhere. If I were running a dungeon crawl (haven't done so in decades) then T&t or a very homeruled MERP would be my go to. One offers fast and furious clouds with fists feet and blades poking out, the other offers tripping over imaginary turtles in the process of disembowelling yourself, which everyone should experience if they like Fantasy RPGs.
 

KrakaJak

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Gringnr

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I've heard good things about the 5.5 edition. I asked for it in the comments of the 5th edition on dtrpg. Maybe we can get a release if we show there is some demand:

They only recently released 5 in PDF. I have seen some chatter that they are working on releasing just the ".5" bits as a separate item. I doubt 5.5 will be coming as a single PDF anytime soon.
 

Halda

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Yeah it is the PDF I am after. I
They only recently released 5 in PDF. I have seen some chatter that they are working on releasing just the ".5" bits as a separate item. I doubt 5.5 will be coming as a single PDF anytime soon.
Nice, the extras are all we really need now!
 

Weru

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What are the extras in 5.5? Was it spite rules, Mike Stackpole's skill system, and a couple of articles on Trollworld? Anything else? Was there an alt armour rule for warriors as well?
 

Gringnr

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What are the extras in 5.5? Was it spite rules, Mike Stackpole's skill system, and a couple of articles on Trollworld? Anything else? Was there an alt armour rule for warriors as well?
Yeah, warriors could "burn armor" in order to avoid taking hits, i.e., take permanent damage to your armor instead.

Pulling punches/calling shots was another of the extra 5.5 rules. Also TARO (Triples Add and Roll Over) during chargen.
 

Weru

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Yeah, warriors could "burn armor" in order to avoid taking hits, i.e., take permanent damage to your armor instead.

Pulling punches/calling shots was another of the extra 5.5 rules. Also TARO (Triples Add and Roll Over) during chargen.
Okay, think I can live without most of 5.5 extras then. I would have gone mad for any details on the game world back in the day. Loved all the snippets of lore in the various solos, but these days I'm more likely to use a world of my own.
 

Moonglum

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I've always found it kind of mysterious that there are so many editions of T&T but none of them present a satisfactory, general solution to the problems caused by the core melee combat system. Perhaps the best thing I've tried was to use the to-hit and damage rules from missile fire as the approach used for all combat. But it only really works when you use the stat versions of monsters and NPCs (as opposed to monster ratings), so it isn't something that ports over easily to the big catalogue of solo dungeons (which is what attracts most people to the system).
 

Gringnr

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Most T&T players don't really consider combat a "problem". Lack of balance and character mortality are baked in. Also, there are the "stunting" rules which can be used.

The game's had more editions than D&D, and many other games as well. If it hasn't been fixed, that's probably because its fans don't really consider it "broken."

There are other approaches as well, certainly. But most fans of T&T are happy to play it as-is.
 

Black Leaf

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Most T&T players don't really consider combat a "problem". Lack of balance and character mortality are baked in. Also, there are the "stunting" rules which can be used.

The game's had more editions than D&D, and many other games as well. If it hasn't been fixed, that's probably because its fans don't really consider it "broken."

There are other approaches as well, certainly. But most fans of T&T are happy to play it as-is.
And on the flipside if you do want a very niche "fix" for something the community has almost certainly come up with one.
 

AsenRG

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My only problem with T&T combat is the use of stunts, especially in solos (which sometimes suggest fun stunts). But do you take a stunt out of the turn order? Or does the enemy get an unopposed attack roll (likely murdering you)?
 

Gringnr

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Stunts are generally do-or-die affairs, as I understand it. Kind of a way to trade certain death door a slim chance of survival. Many times, the price of failure is death. Tangling weapons, sword breakers, poisons, these are all things that can rip the odds in your favor as well. Some things need to be adjudicated beyond what is in the page, and sometimes you have to think laterally.
 

David Johansen

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I don't think there'd be much point in doing a retroclone of T&T. It's too much unique to itself. I'm not hugely fond of the post 5e changes though I can see the rationale. Someone was writing about one on rpg.net about a month ago, Ubermonkey maybe, but it got too far off base for me from where I sat.

I guess I'd probably rationalize the weapons down to broad classes and make the relationship between Strength and dice a fixed quantity. It's really neat how T&T has so many weapon variants but in the end they just amount to more dice. Trait rules seem like a bit of a reach though there are a few instances like kris knives resisting magic. More of that maybe, give specific weapon styles some unique benefit and let a faerie halberd do faerie damage levels.

I actually really like the magic rules. Character creation should probably not get messed with too much. I'd do something more like a secondary skill list and give rogues two and warriors and wizards one. Warriors doubling armour makes for problems but I'm not sure which end to approach it from. I'd probably just make all armour alblative instead of treating it as damage resistance. That way nobody's invulnerable.

But the more you do the farther it drifts from being T&T and there's so many unique games anyhow that I'm not sure it's worth bothering.
 

AsenRG

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Stunts are generally do-or-die affairs, as I understand it. Kind of a way to trade certain death door a slim chance of survival. Many times, the price of failure is death. Tangling weapons, sword breakers, poisons, these are all things that can rip the odds in your favor as well. Some things need to be adjudicated beyond what is in the page, and sometimes you have to think laterally.
What do you mean with that "sometimes" and "some things":shades:?

I agree that there stunts should be do or suffer. As a matter of fact, I think they should be the basis for the combat system, and that a battle without them amounts to a missed opportunity!
I don't think there'd be much point in doing a retroclone of T&T. It's too much unique to itself. I'm not hugely fond of the post 5e changes though I can see the rationale. Someone was writing about one on rpg.net about a month ago, Ubermonkey maybe, but it got too far off base for me from where I sat.

I guess I'd probably rationalize the weapons down to broad classes and make the relationship between Strength and dice a fixed quantity. It's really neat how T&T has so many weapon variants but in the end they just amount to more dice. Trait rules seem like a bit of a reach though there are a few instances like kris knives resisting magic. More of that maybe, give specific weapon styles some unique benefit and let a faerie halberd do faerie damage levels.

I actually really like the magic rules. Character creation should probably not get messed with too much. I'd do something more like a secondary skill list and give rogues two and warriors and wizards one. Warriors doubling armour makes for problems but I'm not sure which end to approach it from. I'd probably just make all armour alblative instead of treating it as damage resistance. That way nobody's invulnerable.

But the more you do the farther it drifts from being T&T and there's so many unique games anyhow that I'm not sure it's worth bothering.
I don't think classifying weapons really works all that well, though. Unless you classify them by types...
And isn't spite damage exactly a way to make sure that nobody is invulnerable?
 

Gringnr

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I love the weapon choices in T&T. The combinations are endless, and yeah, they're all rather samey, but the trick is finding one (or more) you can use with your STR and DEX. Plus it's dripping with old school charm. I noticed that DT&T doesn't have a terbutje and I was disappointed. I usually play elven rogues with Terbutjes, and name them some variation of "Akki the Jagged" or "Ahki the Feral". Good shit.

And, I do agree that the combat in T&T is unbalanced, wildly abstract and can result in mathematical "no-win" situations unless stunts, poisons, special effects weapons, etc. are used. But that's never stopped me having a blast with T&T.

Also, I think Andy Holmes might be working on re-reading some of his T&T stuff. If I'm not mistaken, he released stuff for the notorious James Shipman and Outlaw Press (before Shipman went full you-know-what), as did many others. Since Shipman's stuff is never likely to be reprinted, much of that has been effectively lost. Andy put out a lot of stuff in the 80s, and it's starting to trickle out on DTRPG. So anyone looking for T&T adventures with a classic feel, check his stuff out.
 

Weru

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I love the weapon choices in T&T. The combinations are endless, and yeah, they're all rather samey, but the trick is finding one (or more) you can use with your STR and DEX. Plus it's dripping with old school charm.
Yes, it's real old school resource management. Especially at character creation. I love the fact that with just 30-180 starting gold and various STR and DEX requirements (even weight can be a factor) you have to make often tough choices between which weapons and armour are gonna serve you best within your limits.
 
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