Tunnels & Trolls Bundle of Holding + Chatty Thread

Toadmaster

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And while I get that T&T isn't everyone's cuppa, I think it does require a certain mindset to really enjoy it. To wit:

-It's about the journey, not the destination.

-Easy come, easy go.

-When you start stepping back from the RAW, and experimenting, you're probably starting to "get" it.

None of which makes T&T a particularly "good" game in the strict sense of the word. But, that never stopped me from having fun with it.

Anyway, this post isn't an attempt to rebut Moonglum, so much as an effort to point out that lots of people probably feel as he does. Which is probably what spawned the idea for T&T's alternative "Deadly Combat" rules.
I think the fact it isn't like every other game out there that makes it work, but as you say it requires a certain mindset. Combat is far more abstract, but that is what led me to use it to introduce my then 7 year old. Damage is easily divided among the party making an unlikely roll less likely to kill a PC but doesn't feel like damage is nerfed either. At that time I was spending a fair amount of time at a T&T forum and the game is much deeper that it appears, but really requires some creative thinking by the GM. I found it like on of those dot pictures where it is just a bunch of dots, but then once you see the image it is always there. If you can't find the image it is just kind a dumb blob of dots. I think trying to make it more like D&D or other game, is kind of missing the point. Honestly I don't think it is a great game, but I do like it. I think the reason it has survived so long it there is a lot of creativity supporting it, and it holds a rather unique position in the hobby. I can't really think of another game that directly competes with it.
 

Gringnr

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I think the fact it isn't like every other game out there that makes it work, but as you say it requires a certain mindset. Combat is far more abstract, but that is what led me to use it to introduce my then 7 year old. Damage is easily divided among the party making an unlikely roll less likely to kill a PC but doesn't feel like damage is nerfed either. At that time I was spending a fair amount of time at a T&T forum and the game is much deeper that it appears, but really requires some creative thinking by the GM. I found it like on of those dot pictures where it is just a bunch of dots, but then once you see the image it is always there. If you can't find the image it is just kind a dumb blob of dots. I think trying to make it more like D&D or other game, is kind of missing the point. Honestly I don't think it is a great game, but I do like it. I think the reason it has survived so long it there is a lot of creativity supporting it, and it holds a rather unique position in the hobby. I can't really think of another game that directly competes with it.
Excellent post. As much as I love the solos, there is a little more depth to be had playing with a GM. Especially with missiles and magic in the mix.
 

Toadmaster

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Excellent post. As much as I love the solos, there is a little more depth to be had playing with a GM. Especially with missiles and magic in the mix.
For solos I don't think anything there is anything else that even comes close to the support there is for T&T. Solos can be fun but to me they are more in the realm of CRPGs, but of course in T&Ts prime (1980s) we didn't have a lot of those either.
 

David Johansen

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Fighting Fantasy certainly got a lot of solos. GURPS had a couple. Runequest had one, I think, as did MSPE. D&D had a couple as well.
 

AsenRG

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I just treat solos as CYOA gamebooks: not quite RPGs*, but related:shade:.
Still, I like both:thumbsup:. They're just different!

Besides, a solo is much easier, logistically speaking, than a session...:tongue:

*Unless the GM only allows pre-determined actions, I guess. In which case you can as well be playing a gamebook, unless you're playing for the social interaction with other people:grin:!
 

Gringnr

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Those who have played both T&T and MSPE, do you find the latter to be an improvement, rules wise?
 

David Johansen

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Personally, yes, MSPE is a tighter and more structured design and far less dependent on the GM to function. On the other hand it's very deadly and PCs will really need to pick their fights or wind up on a slab in the morgue.
 

AsenRG

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Personally, yes, MSPE is a tighter and more structured design and far less dependent on the GM to function. On the other hand it's very deadly and PCs will really need to pick their fights or wind up on a slab in the morgue.
So an improvement through and through?
 

AndreasDavour

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I really don't see the big problem that some people seem to have with T&T. Sure, some rules are notoriously dense, like which order things happen in combat, but it's far from broken. But, I think the thing is, it's like Fate, a game that differs a lot from expectations so you have to play it a special way. That being said, I think there are some rules I dislike more than others, I prefer ablative armour for example.

Considering I've played a lot of Stormbringer as well, and like that flavour of crazy it might be a personality thing. Ken's games are very much his style, and like no others.
 

David Johansen

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So an improvement through and through?
From where I stand yes but there are people who hate structured and consistent game mechanics. Tunnels and Trolls is very dependent on the GM making it work, that requires a lot from the GM and it requires a lot of faith from the players but it's the thinnest of frameworks on which to hang a game and for some people that works great.
 

AndreasDavour

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From where I stand yes but there are people who hate structured and consistent game mechanics. Tunnels and Trolls is very dependent on the GM making it work, that requires a lot from the GM and it requires a lot of faith from the players but it's the thinnest of frameworks on which to hang a game and for some people that works great.
This is actually extremely interesting, and quite illuminating.

I would consider T&T to be very consistent, and quite structured. Combat is roll the dice, add up bonues, compare the sums and off you go, everything else is covered by Saving Rolls.

I would also say it does not require very much from the GM, and most situations you just ask for a SR and move on.

That being said, you are spot on that this is not a set of rules that feels like it's thought through to cover all bases. If you want to know what to do in certain situations, you can't say there's a rule for that, as there are not much beyond the SR mechanic. For me that means it does not require much, for others that means it's a thinnest of framework that requires work from the GM. I had never thought of it that way! I can see how it would be that way, if I squint, but for me it's like thinking in a new language. Most interesting.

I would say I am baffled by the statement that there are "people who hate structured and consistent game mechanics"!? I think it's just that some people just want some hand rails, and some want the details spelled out. But, you might have encountered some strange fellows. There are all kinds. MSPE is a neat game, anyway.
 

AsenRG

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Here ya go, chum...

NAME: Warrior 1
Level 1 Male Elf Warrior
Height: 5'9", Weight: 105 lbs.

ST: 15, IQ: 18, LK: 10
CON: 7, DEX: 15, CHR: 12
SPD: 12, POW: 9

Adds: 6, Missile Adds: 9

Wt. Possible: 1500, Wt. Carried: 110.0
Languages:
Elven (native language), Common Tongue, Dwarvish

Gold: 110 gp

__________________________

NAME: Warrior 2
Level 1 Female Fairy Warrior
Height: 0'7", Weight: 0.95 lbs.

ST: 3, IQ: 13, LK: 21
CON: 2, DEX: 13, CHR: 22
SPD: 7, POW: 13

Adds: 4, Missile Adds: 5

Wt. Possible: 300, Wt. Carried: 130.0
Languages:
Elven (native language), Common Tongue

Gold: 130 gp

___________________________

NAME: Warrior 3
Level 1 Male Hobbit Warrior
Height: 2'10", Weight: 37 lbs.

ST: 7, IQ: 14, LK: 10
CON: 36, DEX: 19, CHR: 8
SPD: 12, POW: 15

Adds: 5, Missile Adds: 12

Wt. Possible: 700, Wt. Carried: 120.0
Languages:
Hobbit (native language), Orcish, Gremlin

Gold: 120 gp

__________________________

And now for the monsters (take your pick):

Plated Minions [basically animated armor-G.]
MR: 50
Armor Hits: 12
Attack: Mailed fists (Dice per MR) or simple
weapon.
Not affected by spells/effects that require a living or undead target

____________________________

Ghoul, MR 28

_____________________________

Rats, MR 8, 1-14 appearing

....I hope that works. I tried to pick a hard, medium and possibly-easy-but-with-the-twist-of-multiple-assailants monster. Hope that's what you were looking for. And thanks.



Frag it, did the forum eat my post or what:shock:? I'm sorry, @Gringnr but I remember writing that post yesterday morning (even including the words I had to check in a dictionary, because I was sleepy), and have no idea what happened!

OK, pick character and equipment, then open this spoiler. Protip: use your own dice for rolling, unless you want to use a diceroller. I don't really care...and hey, what good would it do to you to cheat on such rolls:grin:?

As you're walking - or crawling, shambling, or carefully probing your way, depending on temperament and training - the crypt's corridors, you hear a sound like you've only heard once: when a healer applied a warmed up glass on the back of your granny, then covered it with warm towels, then removed it. The glass had kinda grabbed the flesh, curiously enough: the man called this "creating an artificial suction cup", whatever in the 10 000 hells that was supposed to mean...
Still, the sound is being repeated, and getting closer. As you look frantically around, you spot a vaguely humanoid form hanging from the roof upside down. It seems its feet are producing that sound, as it pulls them from the ceiling with some effort.
Realizing it has been spotted, the ghoul moves faster towards you, and tries to put its hands on your head, weapon and equipment. You know from the conversations with other adventurers that it would then start dissolving you alive, as ghouls are wont to do.
An awful way to die, not that there's many desirable ones in your line of work...or in any line of work for that matter!
Is there time to shoot at it? That depends on how fast you have shaken off the shock of its appearance.


Give me a Lvl2 CHR or POW roll (use the higher, I'm generous...yeah, right, I know). If you make it, you get a shot (use standard shooting rules). If you make a higher-level Stunt Roll, you get a bonus die to your damage per level achieved, up to +2. Then we'll go from there!
 

Tulpa Girl

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Out of curiosity, are there any RPGs out there that were clearly influenced by and/or derived from T&T? I don't mean something like MSPE, which is done by the same people and clearly uses the same rules. I mean the sort of thing where someone took their houserules for T&T and wrote it up as a new RPG. In other words, was there any equivalent to games like Arduin that spun off from D&D?
 

Gringnr

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Out of curiosity, are there any RPGs out there that were clearly influenced by and/or derived from T&T? I don't mean something like MSPE, which is done by the same people and clearly uses the same rules. I mean the sort of thing where someone took their houserules for T&T and wrote it up as a new RPG. In other words, was there any equivalent to games like Arduin that spun off from D&D?

Off the top of my head:

Tunnel Goons: T&T-inspired, ultra-lite, free https://tunnelgoons.com/
Twisted Tunnels: T&T 1e clone, WIP, free https://d6.beardedbaby.net/ttyf-rpg
Forward... to Adventure! The RPGPundit's pseudo-clone. Tries to merge D&D with T&T. It's on drivethru.
 
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Toadmaster

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There was also the unauthorized edition, although that was less inspired by and more pure piracy (and not the good kind of piracy).
 

BigJackBrass

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Sandy Petersen acknowledged in an interview I heard that Call of Cthulhu was influenced by The Lovecraft Variant, an article for using T&T to run 1920s Lovecraftian adventures which appeared in Sorcerer's Apprentice . The article certainly predates CoC. The T&T armour and magic systems also influenced later designs, being a big shift from the way D&D did things.
 

Gringnr

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Picked up a copy of The Vital Spot, original T&T material by Jason Mills, from his now defunct website of the same name.

Amazon product
A nifty little bundle o' goodies.
 

Gringnr

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Character:

NAME: Sheldwyn Surefoot
Level 1 Male Hobbit Warrior
Height: 2'10", Weight: 37 lbs.

ST: 7, IQ: 14, LK: 10
CON: 36, DEX: 19, CHR: 8
SPD: 12, POW: 15

Adds: 5, Missile Adds: 12

Wt. Possible: 700, Wt. Carried: 120.0
Languages:
Hobbit (native language), Orcish, Gremlin

Armor:
Scale 8 hits

Weapons:
Terbutje 3+5
Common Sling 2

Frag it, did the forum eat my post or what:shock:? I'm sorry, @Gringnr but I remember writing that post yesterday morning (even including the words I had to check in a dictionary, because I was sleepy), and have no idea what happened!

OK, pick character and equipment, then open this spoiler. Protip: use your own dice for rolling, unless you want to use a diceroller. I don't really care...and hey, what good would it do to you to cheat on such rolls:grin:?

As you're walking - or crawling, shambling, or carefully probing your way, depending on temperament and training - the crypt's corridors, you hear a sound like you've only heard once: when a healer applied a warmed up glass on the back of your granny, then covered it with warm towels, then removed it. The glass had kinda grabbed the flesh, curiously enough: the man called this "creating an artificial suction cup", whatever in the 10 000 hells that was supposed to mean...
Still, the sound is being repeated, and getting closer. As you look frantically around, you spot a vaguely humanoid form hanging from the roof upside down. It seems its feet are producing that sound, as it pulls them from the ceiling with some effort.
Realizing it has been spotted, the ghoul moves faster towards you, and tries to put its hands on your head, weapon and equipment. You know from the conversations with other adventurers that it would then start dissolving you alive, as ghouls are wont to do.
An awful way to die, not that there's many desirable ones in your line of work...or in any line of work for that matter!
Is there time to shoot at it? That depends on how fast you have shaken off the shock of its appearance.


Give me a Lvl2 CHR or POW roll (use the higher, I'm generous...yeah, right, I know). If you make it, you get a shot (use standard shooting rules). If you make a higher-level Stunt Roll, you get a bonus die to your damage per level achieved, up to +2. Then we'll go from there!
I generally don't use POW in my games (I stick pretty close to vanilla 5th), but I'm flexible as hell when someone else is GMing. Also, I like the cut of your jib, as I myself will often give players a choice if there are two potentially relevant Attributes, to somewhat mitigate the deadliness of T&T. So, since it's a L2SR, I'll go with POW:

I rolled a 6, not enough...
 
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