Two Dead Games? (EotE and Wrath and Glory)

Ghost Whistler

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No point creating two topics.

Word on the Wrath & Glory FB page isn't positive, and it sees DTRPG has taken their sales page for this game (not the company or its other games) down. Is this the end? Has GW decided to yank the license? Have Ulysess Spiel given up the ghost after their clearly disastrous launch of the game (the book, by any standards, is a mess).

Now, onto FFG's star wars games.

I ask the same question. Specifically, are they gearing up for version 2? They have released very little recently except for a few generic 'era' books. Their print runs are clearly terrible and fall spectacularly short of the demand. Rise of the Separatists came out last week and, according to the release sheets, was already limited meaning that Asmodee allocate stock to shops. They have no immediate plans for reprinting any of the books despite, again, the demand. It is next to impossible to find books like No Disintegrations in stock anywhere (unless you're willing to pay Amazon scumbag prices).

I don't find these situations to be "player positive"
 

Séadna

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Word on the Wrath & Glory FB page isn't positive, and it sees DTRPG has taken their sales page for this game (not the company or its other games) down. Is this the end?
Seems like all 40K games are gone.
 

Gabriel

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I found No Disintegrations available on Miniature Market, in stock, $25.

Rise of the Separatists is also available in ample numbers

Edit: just looked at Amazon and No Disintegrations is right there for $31.45 with Prime shipping. While above the $29.99 MSRP, it's not exactly scalper priced, and there are at least two other New purchase options which are lower. Also, this book is at least a couple of years old for a subline that's older.
 
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CRKrueger

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Wrath and Glory supposedly isn’t dead, but Ulisses is negotiating with GW how to proceed with the line. I’m guessing they’re not putting one thin dime into it until they know GW isn’t going to yank the rug out from under them.
 

Trippy

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To be honest, compared to Dark Heresy and the rest of the games put out by FFG, Wrath & Glory just isn't that good. It isn't the system, per se, it is just too much of a kitchen sink approach, without much in the way of theme or atmosphere.
 

tenbones

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FFG - well between all three lines of the license, they pretty much covered Star Wars major material. Era books are okay. I figure they have maybe a couple of Era books left and what else do they need that would be reasonably profitable? I wouldn't mind seeing an Old Republic Era book. But I'm not holding my breath. They could crank out adventure books (the ones they've made are very good). But yeah... maybe they're reaching the end of their license rope?
 

Gabriel

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A few thoughts about FFG and Star Wars.

X-Wing 2.0 launched last summer. That doubtless took a lot of resources. Right before X-Wing relaunched, they were dipping deep into EU as well as doing some Prequel stuff.

The Star Wars RPG is doing prequel stuff now.

Take note that the Force Awakens Beginner Set didn't result in a Force Awakens corebook. There are two ways to view this. One is that it was a feeler for how well the RPG audience would receive a Disney Wars line, and it just didn't deliver the sales required. The other is that they're saving a Disney Wars RPG line for after the conclusion of the current trilogy.

Edge of the Empire is also 6 years old. Damn, has it really been that long? Even Force & Destiny, the most recent subline is 4 years old. That's an absolute eternity for FFG.

Interestingly, the interval between Dark Heresy 1st and 2nd editions was 6 years.
 

Ghost Whistler

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I found No Disintegrations available on Miniature Market, in stock, $25.

Rise of the Separatists is also available in ample numbers

Edit: just looked at Amazon and No Disintegrations is right there for $31.45 with Prime shipping. While above the $29.99 MSRP, it's not exactly scalper priced, and there are at least two other New purchase options which are lower. Also, this book is at least a couple of years old for a subline that's older.
Not in the UK though. I'm not terribly bothered about Rise (playable Geonosians?), but I would like No Disintegrations. But over here it is completely OOS
 

Gabriel

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Not in the UK though. I'm not terribly bothered about Rise (playable Geonosians?), but I would like No Disintegrations. But over here it is completely OOS
OK, my bad.

Over here in the US, there's a certain trajectory FFG products follow:

1) They're released
2) They're common as dirt and negative opinions on the internet for a while.
3) FFG doesn't reprint because there's ample available and they're doing other things. Then two possible things happen:
4a) Book becomes hard to find and scalpers go crazy. I've seen this over and over with Descent: Journeys in the Dark stuff
4b) Book is still common as dirt and goes on clearance for pennies.
 

Ghost Whistler

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I judtdomt get why else they wouldn't reprint an obviously popular book
 

EmperorNorton

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I think the reason that Force Awakens starter didn't lead to a Force Awakens Core is because that was never the plan. The plan was always the separation of Scoundrels, Military, Force Users as the three core books, and releasing a Force Awakens Core would have to smush all that together.

Granted almost everyone who plays plays with a mix of all three cause why the hell not but yeah.
 

tenbones

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I think the reason that Force Awakens starter didn't lead to a Force Awakens Core is because that was never the plan. The plan was always the separation of Scoundrels, Military, Force Users as the three core books, and releasing a Force Awakens Core would have to smush all that together.

Granted almost everyone who plays plays with a mix of all three cause why the hell not but yeah.
I think your'e right. It was a bold move too. LOTS of people complained about no Jedi/Sith in Edge when it dropped (though you could be an untrained Force sensitive). But as of right now... it's a pretty complete game outside of more endless gear/ship/aliens/creature splats. Which of course you can't ever have too much of.

Era books are obvious, but limited in terms of extending things much further unless they expand with Old Republic in which case they can recreate everything they've done to date with Old Republic era conceits. That would be cheesy... but you know... greedier things have happened.
 

Ghost Whistler

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I think for me, though I've bought none of their others games, Ulysses are a compnay I'll be avoiding in future
 

Gabriel

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I think for me, though I've bought none of their others games, Ulysses are a compnay I'll be avoiding in future
I don't think I'll be jumping at their stuff either. I definitely won't ever pre-order anything they're involved in again.

I was recently putting a bunch of my RPG stuff in boxes to go to storage. The ONLY reason Wrath & Glory stayed out was because it was new and I wasn't sure I had given it a fair chance.
 

Ghost Whistler

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Arcane_Avatar

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Note that C7 has just announced that they are doing the WH40K RPG in conjunction with Ulysses (who will be doing the German langauge version).
 

Gabriel

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Gabriel

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Note that C7 has just announced that they are doing the WH40K RPG in conjunction with Ulysses (who will be doing the German langauge version).
At the very least the products will be prettier. All I have of C7 is the Doctor Who stuff, but they're pretty books at least.

I saw mention elsewhere that C7 will be revamping and re-releasing the core book? Now I officially regret buying it.
 

BlackWolf

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Wrath and Glory and Warhammer 40.000 RPG's will be produced by Cubicle 7 now.
Source.
 

Ghost Whistler

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Check Ebay UK. I did a quick look and found three copies, all vastly lower than that Amazon listing. They're from US sellers, so I don't know how big a ding the shipping will be for you, but it's worth a check at least, right?
Thanks but I don't do international shipping, it's just not worth the hassle. The cheapest is about £32 and that's assuming I don't have to pay customs fees if it gets held up.
 

Ghost Whistler

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At the very least the products will be prettier. All I have of C7 is the Doctor Who stuff, but they're pretty books at least.

I saw mention elsewhere that C7 will be revamping and re-releasing the core book? Now I officially regret buying it.
Understandable. Ross Watson and his mates can fuck right off for this shit. This is piss poor.

Sorry.notsorry.

Also the WFRP 4e book, while very enjoyable, has plenty of issues of its own.

Le sigh
 

Skywalker

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Hopefully C7 will pass on WFRP4e to Fria Ligan for a similar revision :grin:

Seriously, congrats to C7. It will be interesting to see how they handle their sudden exponential growth. In some ways, it’s a shame that C7 couldn’t just do a 40k RPG that was consistent with its WFRP RPG. That may have actually pulled me in to 4e.
 

Ghost Whistler

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I assume they'll just retain the current design team so, while I'm fairly ambivalent on the issue of C7's ownership, I don't see much changing in terms of design and possibly writing quality. Ross Watson et. all are not amateurs so there's really no excuse (certainly not one forthcoming) for why the current book is so messed up.
 

Ghost Whistler

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By chance Rise of the Separatists was on the shelf today so I bought it.

I'm a bit confused as to what this book is meant to be. It wants to be both a supplement - you need the core books, which is fine - but also it wants to be its own thing - but it's not complete, you'll have to wait until at least the Collapse of the Republic supplement (and whatever follows on from that). Honestly they could have just made a core book for the Clone Wars and it would have sold and I'd be happy. I really struggle with FFg these days. They do good work and the book isn't by any means bad (i haven't read it all), but this mish mash approach they have is bizarre to me. I don't find it consumer friendly.

Case in point. The book has some new careers. Two of them are specific: Clone and Jedi. The others Republic representative (Senator Binks) and Republic Officer (posh Admiral bloke), Force outcast (Ventriss or Savage Oppress, I guess) and Scavenger (Hondo?), are universal which means anyone can take them at any point by spending XP. That's cool, clones are also now statted as a race choice, which is fine. But the Jedi career comprises 2 specialisations (Clones get three: soldier trooper and pilot) that don't seem to mesh with content from Force and Destiny. They get Knight and Padawan (you might think that Knight shoudl also get Padawan for free, but no).

It seems that they wanted a 'bite size' approach. If you want to play a CW Jedi you pick Knight or, if Ahsoka's your thing, pick Padawan. That's cool. Knight is pretty much "deflect a legion of droid blasterfire" whereas reading through the content in FnD and of course the supplements, you get a trove of stuff to work with. I guess you can adapt it, in fact why wouldn't you. But it's oddly specialised.

I picked up the book because its content I can use for my own Old Republic variant which i want to run soon somehow, when i get over my fear of roll20 or whatever. This stuff will be ideal for an earlier Republic military era. Obviously just replace Clones with...whatever the Repbulic used before they decided to clone (what did they do? Did they not have an army?) Jedi Knight can serve as a simple character choice without having to have the players flip through FnD.

But see this is the issue: having Jedi Knight as a career is cool, but here it's only as deep as it wants to be for smushing droids. It's not really fleshed out for a broader Jedi milieu. Whereas Force and Destiny (FnD) has more to offer but is oddly also specialised: it's for playing force sensitives after Order 66/Yavin. It isn't a generic book on Jedi. You can easily use it for that, but the specialisations are oriented to the sorts of roles these 'non-Jedi' Jedi have. It isn't the Big Book of Jedi.

I shall pick up Collapse of the Republic because a) i'm a hypocrit with holes in his pockets and b) I want the Mandalorian info (because of course that has to be in yet another book - along with Nightsisters). Stats for Anakin are irrelevant (this has Obi Wan, Dooku and Ventriss - I'm not entirely sure why they bothered, they didn't include Sidious, Grievous, Hondo, Ahsoka, Sleepy, Dozy Beak, Mick and Titch either).

EDIT: and the races included here are Clone, and, bizarrely, Geonosian (I mean wtf), Kaminoan (they're in one of the AoR books iirc), and Umbaran!?! A weird race from a couple of episodes. Like, wut? tBF I can't really think any more specific choices. You could argue Togrutan, but they'r ein FnD, Weequay (Hondo), Zabrak/Dathomir (ventriss/oppress)
 

Ladybird

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Hopefully C7 will pass on WFRP4e to Fria Ligan for a similar revision :grin:

Seriously, congrats to C7. It will be interesting to see how they handle their sudden exponential growth. In some ways, it’s a shame that C7 couldn’t just do a 40k RPG that was consistent with its WFRP RPG. That may have actually pulled me in to 4e.
But that's what Black Industries et al tried, and it... didn't work. You could maybe rescale everything so the system has the ability to cope with the high-end characters that WFRP doesn't have, but the issue with that is that 40k uses the low end as well. It could be that their AoS system, designed for a higher power level of character, works well; we'll see.

All that said, "dice pool system" killed any interest I had in W&G, stone dead.
 

Endless Flight

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FFG drags out their Star Wars line by dropping little crumbs in their endless treadmill. Even WotC wasn’t that bad when they had the license. They had their Saga book on the Clone Wars, which was very good, and you would have all you need with the core book and that to run a campaign.

Star Wars isn’t the kind of game where you need a shitload of classes anyway. The D6 skill based with the templates is still the way to go. For instance, why FFG separates Padawan and Knight, I have no idea.
 

Armchair Gamer

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This stuff will be ideal for an earlier Republic military era. Obviously just replace Clones with...whatever the Repbulic used before they decided to clone (what did they do? Did they not have an army?)
Not a standing army since the last Jedi-Sith war. System Defense Forces, some Judicial forces, and Jedi.

EDIT: and the races included here are Clone, and, bizarrely, Geonosian (I mean wtf), Kaminoan (they're in one of the AoR books iirc), and Umbaran!?! A weird race from a couple of episodes. Like, wut? tBF I can't really think any more specific choices. You could argue Togrutan, but they'r ein FnD, Weequay (Hondo), Zabrak/Dathomir (ventriss/oppress)
Sounds like half the new Episode II species (no Clawdites or Besalisks).
 

Ghost Whistler

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Not a standing army since the last Jedi-Sith war. System Defense Forces, some Judicial forces, and Jedi.



Sounds like half the new Episode II species (no Clawdites or Besalisks).
Besalisks are in Special Modifications while Clawdites are in the near-mythical No Disintegrations.

I dont object to Geonosians, but it's an odd choice. It's almost as if the book wants to encompass options for playing either side of the war - except it's only Republic careers that are given. Perhaps that will change in Collapse of the Republic.
 

Ghost Whistler

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FFG drags out their Star Wars line by dropping little crumbs in their endless treadmill. Even WotC wasn’t that bad when they had the license. They had their Saga book on the Clone Wars, which was very good, and you would have all you need with the core book and that to run a campaign.

Star Wars isn’t the kind of game where you need a shitload of classes anyway. The D6 skill based with the templates is still the way to go. For instance, why FFG separates Padawan and Knight, I have no idea.
The book may explain it further, but the choices are weird. If they had done a Knight career to cap off the content in FnD that would be fine, and you could no doubt use it for that, but it don't have any of the max level career talents that appear in the career sourcebooks. However it does have a lot of stuff on ships and vehicles as well as stats for droids (and only droids).

I just wish FFG would change tack. This really didn't need to be two books. In fact it could easily have been a fourth core book including the rules. I would have bought that.
 

EmperorNorton

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For instance, why FFG separates Padawan and Knight, I have no idea.
Honestly it makes zero sense cause it doesn't really go well with Force and Destiny, which more separates things based on style of Jedi (warrior/consular/guardian/sentinel/seeker/mystic) and said "knight" level characters would be starting characters with a certain number of extra xp (I think 150 but my brain is not what it used to be). Padawan and Knight are just ranks, not classes.
 

Ghost Whistler

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Maybe it's time the industry did things differently. I don't begrudge FFG and others making a living obviously, but releasing class based source material 6 months to a year after people start playing just seems stupid. Similarly splitting up your Clonw Wars ruleset six months apart just makes no sense to me.

FFG aren't the only ones. Modiphius is pulling a similar trick with its games. How long ago was Infinity released? Does it even have spaceship rules yet? L5R is the same; each new suplement has a new clan. Kinda silly IMO (not gamebreaking though). Star Trek has its 'division' books which, so far, are really lacking IMO (YMMV). Maybe it's no different than it always was; after all White Wolf were releasing splatbooks back in the day. Weirdly I never cared about them, even though I devoured amlost everything else.

In conclusion: hurry up and reprint No Disintegrations ffs, it's not like no one will buy it.
 

Ladybird

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Maybe it's time the industry did things differently. I don't begrudge FFG and others making a living obviously, but releasing class based source material 6 months to a year after people start playing just seems stupid. Similarly splitting up your Clonw Wars ruleset six months apart just makes no sense to me.

FFG aren't the only ones. Modiphius is pulling a similar trick with its games. How long ago was Infinity released? Does it even have spaceship rules yet? L5R is the same; each new suplement has a new clan. Kinda silly IMO (not gamebreaking though). Star Trek has its 'division' books which, so far, are really lacking IMO (YMMV). Maybe it's no different than it always was; after all White Wolf were releasing splatbooks back in the day. Weirdly I never cared about them, even though I devoured amlost everything else.

In conclusion: hurry up and reprint No Disintegrations ffs, it's not like no one will buy it.
If the community wants change, then the community has to stop financially rewarding the splatbook model. It's really that simple.
 

EmperorNorton

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If the community wants change, then the community has to stop financially rewarding the splatbook model. It's really that simple.
The thing is, a lot of people do still like the model. That is why it works. I think sometimes people on forums (not necessarily happening right now, just pointing out a trend I've noticed) get really upset that games aren't designed with their sensibilities in mind, cause clearly it has an audience if it is doing well.
 

Ladybird

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The thing is, a lot of people do still like the model. That is why it works. I think sometimes people on forums (not necessarily happening right now, just pointing out a trend I've noticed) get really upset that games aren't designed with their sensibilities in mind, cause clearly it has an audience if it is doing well.
Yeah - look at something like Exalted 3, where entire splats won't be playable for years after it's release. Sucks if you're a fan of those...

I actually agree with GW, though, I don't like the release strategy, but I recognise the commercial necessity for it; sure, it would be great if the entire system was designed out and ready to go on launch day, but that's too much product for retailers to stock in one go, requires too much expensive dev work before seeing any financial return, basically kills the line's long tail, and means there's nothing for the community to get excited about in future. It works fine for smaller-scope games, but for a big line, you need continual releases.
 

Endless Flight

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I would have done it differently. I would have released the game with the base classes in A core book. Then I would have released one book per trilogy starting with the original trilogy, sprinkling in specific planets, equipment and characters we see there. Then in between those books I would have done two adventure books. That’s 1+3+6=10 products already lined up and you don’t feel as ripped off as the official model.
 

EmperorNorton

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I honestly don't mind the FFG release method for SW. I mean, I can't keep up with it but to be honest it isn't something you HAVE to keep up with. Most original trilogy characters could have been statted up using just the EotE core book and a bit of homebrewing for races (which with the number of races in SW, you'll never be able to stat them all officially).

Also, having F&D be its own book really did a lot to make two Jedi feel very different mechanically. While I know that isn't important to some people, having an entire book of just options for Force Users made it possible to run an all Jedi game without it feeling samey at all.

The biggest problem imo is the amount of time between the core books being released. It led to two things: 1. F&D mechanics on talents and such seem much more refined due to experience from the designers. The way they do deflect is amazing and I backported it into my houserules for starship combat. 2. People had to wait for the full Jedi experience. (even though I still think you could do Jedi characters with the earlier rules, they were more OT Jedi than the Jedi of the Prequel trilogy.)

I mean, three core rulebooks to get the full experience of a game system doesn't feel like a ripoff to me... considering that has been the predominant case for D&D throughout its entire lifespan.

(The class based splatbooks for FFG Star Wars just expand the options, they might make better ways to build the character you wanted, but I've never seen them add a whole new type of character. The only reason to buy them is 1. you are an obsessive collector who must have all of them. or 2. You like an option in that book. You don't have to buy all of them)
 

Endless Flight

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The three core rule books is a rip-off if you have played Star Wars using any of the previous official systems though.
 

Ghost Whistler

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All you need: races book (and you don't need EVERY race since the list is endless and every film just invents more anyway), a book on gear/ships and one on planets.

It's not that i object to these books per se it's just that the approach is too problematic: it took them 2 yeas to release all of them and they are largely OOP (over here at least). If all this stuff was freely available then fine. But that's not how it works
 
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