Two Dead Games? (EotE and Wrath and Glory)

[Endless Flight]

So every single time an RPG is made for an IP it should follow the exact same model or its a ripoff?

Honestly this is the kind of bullshit attitude I hate from the RPG community: If you don't do things exactly the way I like them you are ripping off customers/bad/anti-consumer/etc.

No not necessarily.

It’s a ripoff because a good 60% of all three books are the exact same material. Why am I paying $180 for the three sets of the same rules? It’s not compatible to D&D where each book is different.

 

[Ladybird]

The three core rule books is a rip-off if you have played Star Wars using any of the previous official systems though.

Appreciating everything I've said above, I actually like FFG's "multiple corebook" model. By concentrating each corebook on one of the major "themes" of the setting that groups would be likely to want to play, it's easy to get a focussed game going and provide a lot of support for that from a minimum of books. However it does have the problem of lots of repeated material in each book, as you correctly point out, and as we've pointed out elsewhere there's a huge temptation for publishers to somewhat... blur the lines between each overall theme... in selecting what material goes where, to maximise book sales (Even more so in Star Wars than it was in the 40k lines). If they could do PDF's or electronic versions ("Star Wars Beyond"...), it would be less of a problem, but the license somewhat gets in the way there.

Olivia Hill suggested a different model of doing games like this - many smaller releases that you put together to get the exact game you want - so you could maybe make your ideal Star Wars game by buying the core rules, the "Stuff about being a smuggler" book, and asking players to buy their own classbooks, with each individual book being PoD and relatively cheap... but again, technology and commercial issues get in the way.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Yeah, the issue with PDF is entirely on the licensing. Star Wars RPGs have had this problems for as long as PDF copies have been around.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Also, I've found having all the core rules in all three books kind of nice, it makes looking up rules at the table for players easier since I have three copies of the base rules.

I mean, I can't be the only GM who happens to be the only person at their table who regularly buys books...

 

[Armchair Gamer]

Besalisks are in Special Modifications while Clawdites are in the near-mythical No Disintegrations.

I dont object to Geonosians, but it's an odd choice. It's almost as if the book wants to encompass options for playing either side of the war - except it's only Republic careers that are given. Perhaps that will change in Collapse of the Republic.

Just providing tidbits and a possible explanation. Since I have every d20 SW book, every d6 hardcover, and all the Essential Guides, I never bought into FFG, so I don’t know what they’ve covered or what their strategy is.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Appreciating everything I've said above, I actually like FFG's "multiple corebook" model. By concentrating each corebook on one of the major "themes" of the setting that groups would be likely to want to play, it's easy to get a focussed game going and provide a lot of support for that from a minimum of books. However it does have the problem of lots of repeated material in each book, as you correctly point out, and as we've pointed out elsewhere there's a huge temptation for publishers to somewhat... blur the lines between each overall theme... in selecting what material goes where, to maximise book sales (Even more so in Star Wars than it was in the 40k lines). If they could do PDF's or electronic versions ("Star Wars Beyond"...), it would be less of a problem, but the license somewhat gets in the way there.

Olivia Hill suggested a different model of doing games like this - many smaller releases that you put together to get the exact game you want - so you could maybe make your ideal Star Wars game by buying the core rules, the "Stuff about being a smuggler" book, and asking players to buy their own classbooks, with each individual book being PoD and relatively cheap... but again, technology and commercial issues get in the way.

I don't mind it, though Jedi only (force and Destiny) is a bit bizarre.

I just don't get why the Clone Wars content needed 2 (at least) books. I find that's the devs telling me how to play my game. I can play Knights and Padawans now, but not Masters and Generals or Senators. Whatevs

 

[Jetstream]

I think for me, though I've bought none of their others games, Ulysses are a compnay I'll be avoiding in future

I don't think I'll be jumping at their stuff either. I definitely won't ever pre-order anything they're involved in again.

I was recently putting a bunch of my RPG stuff in boxes to go to storage. The ONLY reason Wrath & Glory stayed out was because it was new and I wasn't sure I had given it a fair chance.

The Torg Eternity team hasn't fucked anything up yet. Those're good books that are coming out pretty consistently, if slower than they had initially planned.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

The Torg Eternity team hasn't fucked anything up yet. Those're good books that are coming out pretty consistently, if slower than they had initially planned.

Perhaps that's where all the WnG people went.

We'll never know, because it's not their problem anymore and they couldn't be arsed talking to their customers

 

[Luca]

So every single time an RPG is made for an IP it should follow the exact same model or its a ripoff?

Honestly this is the kind of bullshit attitude I hate from the RPG community: If you don't do things exactly the way I like them you are ripping off customers/bad/anti-consumer/etc.

The problem is not following a different model, it's how the model is implemented. The 3 main books of FFG's SW have all the core rules repeated; that makes the total page count *and the related cost of purchase* enormously inflated.
So if I want to play using their model and want to have a Han proxy, a Luke proxy, and a Leia proxy in my party I need to purchase $180 worth of books. It's painfully obvious thas this is done to fleece the customers; everyone knows that core books sell more than splatbooks, so they subsume the first iteration of the latter into multiple copies of the former.

I mean, come on. You have three different core books, one with Luke's class, one with Han' s class, and one with Leia's class. It's transparent...

 

[EmperorNorton]

Han is Scoundrel, Luke starts Fringer, and gains a few Force Power trees. Both of those are EotE. Honestly, he probably hits some of the F&D specializations by Return of the Jedi, but I don't think he would be very far into them. And even then,, everything he does in the OT can be modeled with just EotE.

Leia would start with Ambassador, but you could also model her with Politico, which is in EotE.

The thing that most people don't seem to understand about the FFG Star Wars game is that EotE actually covers a hell of a lot more than you think. The only reason you would need F&D is to model Prequel trilogy style Jedi, and AoR's careers and specializations are useful but there isn''t a lot in them that you couldn't make with EotE.

I own the full line of core books, but you could play the game with just EotE and do the full range of any character from Original Trilogy. And I did. I played with just EotE to start and we still had characters that were spread across the gamut of possibilities.

 

[EmperorNorton]

But you know, I'm someone who actually played the game, what do I know.

 

[Endless Flight]

But you know, I'm someone who actually played the game, what do I know.

That you paid for three core rulebooks that weren’t really necessary?

 

[EmperorNorton]

While EotE covers everything from the original trilogy, I don't think it covers Prequel/book/KotOR era superhero style Jedi very well. F&D is great for that.

AoR has just more stuff. Is it necessary stuff, not really. But you know what I like having more stuff.

But I guess I'm one of those bad wrong fun people who like splatbooks for the most part so I wouldn't listen to me if I were you, you might catch something.

I mean, my only real problem with the splat treadmill of FFG Star Wars was how fast it was if you were keeping up with all three lines. But if you just wanted to grab a book here and there that had options you were interested in, it isn't that bad.

The problem with splat book people and anti-splat book people is this idea that you have to have everything or its worthless.

 

[tenbones]

The problem is not following a different model, it's how the model is implemented. The 3 main books of FFG's SW have all the core rules repeated; that makes the total page count *and the related cost of purchase* enormously inflated.
So if I want to play using their model and want to have a Han proxy, a Luke proxy, and a Leia proxy in my party I need to purchase $180 worth of books. It's painfully obvious thas this is done to fleece the customers; everyone knows that core books sell more than splatbooks, so they subsume the first iteration of the latter into multiple copies of the former.

I mean, come on. You have three different core books, one with Luke's class, one with Han' s class, and one with Leia's class. It's transparent...

I'm going to agree and disagree.

Agreement: It sucks having to buy the core rules three times. They could easily have created a Core Rules booklet - like Savage Worlds (or their Genesys rulesbook) at a lower cost with all the basic info needed to play.

Disagreement: That the three core-games are a cash-grab. I've run enough Star Wars from D6's inception to know how much people groan about someone being a Force User. Not to mention the specifics of wanting to play a certain kind of game with focus. FFG's delineations of "Edge", "Military" and "Force" related themes strike directly at the major contexts of the Star Wars universe. Each of these lines (now) are fully distinct in their expressions that you can deep-dive into those "cultures" with wild abandon. Adding elements from the other lines only enhances it. Of course you can play them altogether too.

I think FFG nailed the consistency of their respective lines. I'm still a *massive* fan of the West End line... but FFG, despite some quibbles, did justice to the license.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

I ran a year-long Age of Rebellion game centered on a squadron of old Y-Wing fighters. I did not have the other two core rulebooks and it was a successful game. It did require everyone to be pilots (except the one commando who was an often bored gunner) so need for smugglers or jedi. I only purchased a couple of the AoR source books. My point being we didn't really need to go with the entire product line.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I ran a year-long Age of Rebellion game centered on a squadron of old Y-Wing fighters. I did not have the other two core rulebooks and it was a successful game. It did require everyone to be pilots (except the one commando who was an often bored gunner) so need for smugglers or jedi. I only purchased a couple of the AoR source books. My point being we didn't really need to go with the entire product line.

When I was planning a Pilot game, I just gave everyone one free cross specialization into a pilot tree (or one free cross specialization out of it to make someone who started as a pilot more rounded) that didn't count for the cost of further specializations.

I was planning something like Wraith Squadron from the books, where every pilot should also be capable in some other covert or commando skills.

 

[Picaroon Jack]

When I was planning a Pilot game, I just gave everyone one free cross specialization into a pilot tree (or one free cross specialization out of it to make someone who started as a pilot more rounded) that didn't count for the cost of further specializations.

I was planning something like Wraith Squadron from the books, where every pilot should also be capable in some other covert or commando skills.

We had an officer, a couple of straight up pilots, one hot shot pilot, one engineer/pilot, and then the commando/gunner. The only person who made a new character once they earned x-wings towards the end was the commando.

 

[Bashere]

Yeah, FFG Star War's three core books is a bit off putting (not to mention needing the custom dice), and I say this as someone who believes in supporting things you like. It did help they didn't drop all three books at once and each one is self contained.

The games I've ran have been mainly EotE based, though one player chose a AoR class and it worked out well enough.What did help was the fact multiple players had a book and could look up information. What sucked was as the owner I got to haul all the books....

Still, the net result I don't mind and I see why others would. Honestly my big gripe is they haven't put out a compiled races or gear books.

 

[CRKrueger]

Well, Cubicle 7 took over the 40k license from Ulisses. The problem is, they are keeping the Wrath and Glory system.


I was hoping WaNG would just die and someone else could make a good system.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Well, Cubicle 7 took over the 40k license from Ulisses. The problem is, they are keeping the Wrath and Glory system.


I was hoping WaNG would just die and someone else could make a good system.

No, the problem is they're letting Ross Watson fix the problems

 

[AsenRG]

Well, Cubicle 7 took over the 40k license from Ulisses. The problem is, they are keeping the Wrath and Glory system.


I was hoping WaNG would just die and someone else could make a good system.

What is the Wrath and Glory system? It sounds mildly familiar, so I've probably read about it on some forum, but didn't bother remembering much.

 

[Sommerjon]

What is the Wrath and Glory system? It sounds mildly familiar, so I've probably read about it on some forum, but didn't bother remembering much.

From a review
Core rules- Wrath and glory uses a modified d6 system like Shadowrun. Every action taken by the character is done by adding up the character's attribute plus their skill for that action and rolling that many six-sided dice. One die is kept a separate color and is called the wrath dice, and is important later. Players then count all the dice that roll 4s and 5s for single successes. Each 6 counts as two successes. Most tests require 3 successes to succeed, with some harder things requiring up to 11 almost impossible to get successes while easy things that always succeed might only require 1 success. Players have access to a number of different pools to alter these rolls.

 

[AsenRG]

From a review
Core rules- Wrath and glory uses a modified d6 system like Shadowrun. Every action taken by the character is done by adding up the character's attribute plus their skill for that action and rolling that many six-sided dice. One die is kept a separate color and is called the wrath dice, and is important later. Players then count all the dice that roll 4s and 5s for single successes. Each 6 counts as two successes. Most tests require 3 successes to succeed, with some harder things requiring up to 11 almost impossible to get successes while easy things that always succeed might only require 1 success. Players have access to a number of different pools to alter these rolls.

Thank you.

Sounds utterly forgettable, but serviceable. What are the known issues?

 

[Gabriel]

I remember when I first got into D&D, having to have that oddball set of polyhedral dice was more inconvenient than Star Wars special dice because of the lack of online ordering and total lack of local availability.

A heads up for anyone who might have been interested in the Wrath & Glory Starter set. Miniature Market has it on clearance for under $20. It has some nifty d6s and some plastic character and enemy tokens. Not sure if that really makes it worth it, but the tokens ARE kinda spiffy.

 

[Sommerjon]

Thank you.

Sounds utterly forgettable, but serviceable. What are the known issues?

For me, it is quite beige. There is no pop to it, you would think with it being 40k and all there would be something to latch onto, but no not really. It is as you said utterly forgettable.

 

[AsenRG]

For me, it is quite beige. There is no pop to it, you would think with it being 40k and all there would be something to latch onto, but no not really. It is as you said utterly forgettable.

Yay me! And I'm positive I've never even seen it!

 

[Edgewise]

Their print runs are clearly terrible and fall spectacularly short of the demand.

Sometimes I think this is a common strategy of FF to build hype.

 

[Marktplatz]

FFG's Star Wars is fun, but between very few opportunities to play it on and offline, and my growing dislike for Star Wars in general, I sold my rulebooks and haven't played it in over a year.

W&G I've not played, but I've heard it's bad all around. FFG 40k is also better, but is impossible to find in retail and was apparently outsourced to some German company I'd never heard of.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

So Collaps of the Republic got release, the same find clone wars book.

I think the problem m I'm having is that these books betray what feels like a rushed attitude. So for exampl e, this so find book, covering the end of the clone wars, has a splat for Jedi generals and jdi masters. You might think that's good, but surely this is something that warrants a sourcebook, or at least a broader discussion in book for the Force and Destiny game. As yet I'm seeing nothing for that covering how a jedi character might evolve. Like is nightsisters, just another splat.

It feels rushed, like they Re trying to get Content out before losing the license. That's a big assumption based on nothing, I'm sure other both star wars products still go gangbusters.

Not entirely sure where they go from her though, or by the clone wars needed 2 books given how little each actually has. The choice of races is bizarre, shark dude and spider dude? Wtf?

 

[AsenRG]

Not entirely sure where they go from her though, or by the clone wars needed 2 books given how little each actually has. The choice of races is bizarre, shark dude and spider dude? Wtf?

OK, that is kinda bizarre!

 

[Ghost Whistler]

The choices seem to be: clone (again), the shark dude from that episode on mon cal with young Ackbar and the prince. So that's a separatist character choice that appears once. Dathomirian (ie Ventriss or Savage Oppress), which is fine, and spider guy (from that one episode where I think George Takei did the voice and he controlled a tank or something). Not the most scintillating choices. Not really sure why the bothered, frankly.

It just makes no sense to me and it feels like they include character options that are just rushed where previously, for better or worse, they might have merited a supplement in and of themselves. Now the entirety of being a Jedi Master is one talent tree!?!