Lessa
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Bro, Fate, PbtA and OSR never sold so well.My point is that D&D 5E is experiencing a boom. The overall hobby isn't.
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Bro, Fate, PbtA and OSR never sold so well.My point is that D&D 5E is experiencing a boom. The overall hobby isn't.
The top 5 chart is from hobby stores. I hope you’re right but I am guessing you’re not. If it was selling that well and anywhere near the old Vampire game, we’d hear something like “Vampire 5E is the best selling Vampire” like we do with D&D.Well, actually you don't know that. The retail sales are still the most significant thing in gaming - far more than PDF sales - and the reach of things like Amazon is not to be underestimated. D&D is undoubtedly the biggest seller, but it has always served as a gatekeeper to other RPGs. Some of these, including Vampire, have become recognosable brands in their own right.
V5 has been turning up in local game stores and selling, from things I have seen - it certainly made the Top5 in retail charts at least, and has sold through it's initial print runs. It is Modiphius best seller -they actually went out of their way to take management of the license when the previous management were dissolved. I wouldn't know if this all amounts to hundreds of thousands of units just yet, but these numbers have been reached by RPGs other than D&D before - again, including Vampire.
Bro, Fate, PbtA and OSR never sold so well.
D&D has always been the elephant in the room. The challenge from 90's WOD was the exception, not the rule.
Compared to the '90s, network effects are much easier to achieve now, even for smaller games. Back then, getting a game off the ground relied on selling it to the people around me. Currently, I am confident that given a few weeks of effort, I could recruit a decent-sized group to run a game in video chat of any obscure game in my library.Because network effects are important when:
- You want to find a good selection of informed people to discuss the game in depth with.
- When you want a sense of community and belonging beyond just your playgroup.
- When you want supplemental material (official and unofficial) to help expand your game.
- When you are looking for players.
- When you are trying to pitch the game to potential players.
Are network effects essential in this hobby?
No, but in my personal experience they are very convenient.
My point is that D&D 5E is experiencing a boom. The overall hobby isn't. Vampire 5E isn't selling hundreds of thousands of books. D&D has grown the D&D business.
Not just four hours, add prep time beforehand, and the campaign play that most RPG's are designed with the assumption of. An RPG is a lot of time investment, compared to a board game which you can get through and end in that same four hours, or even less.For example, I've been working to develop 20 minute demo versions of Atlas' RPGs -- so that stores can demo them the same way that they demo board games. But we're fighting a perception battle: People think of RPGs as being this thing that you need to dedicate 4 hours to. The idea of doing a quick little sample of the game even in a demo capacity doesn't fit into the way RPGs live in people's brains.
You don't say!There appears to be a huge disconnect between online communities and regular gamers.
Prep time? What is that?Not just four hours, add prep time beforehand, and the campaign play that most RPG's are designed with the assumption of. An RPG is a lot of time investment, compared to a board game which you can get through and end in that same four hours, or even less.
There was no declaration about D&D5 being the best selling edition for several years after it's initial release. It's way too soon to say for V5. However, it is doing well by all accounts. Beyond this, it's really one for the statisticians. If you like the game and have a group that you can play with, everything else is just a discussion point. Vampire has been outselling Call of Cthulhu too, in the last quarter, incidentally.The top 5 chart is from hobby stores. I hope you’re right but I am guessing you’re not. If it was selling that well and anywhere near the old Vampire game, we’d hear something like “Vampire 5E is the best selling Vampire” like we do with D&D.
I know that D&D is the 500lbs gorilla in the room. I’m not wanting games to outsell D&D. I think I read that there are like 10 million D&D players. And, I don’t know if that means people playing all editions or just 5E. I just want a couple companies to be able to sell a few hundred thousands of their books. The audience is there. I mean we have gobs of young, hip, twenty somethings, that are all about D&D. Maybe Vampire will do it with the new computer game coming out.
The dark horse is Call of Cthulhu because it is like the old faithful of non D&D gaming that is very popular around the globe, and the starter set might help get some of these D&D folks to try it out.
Semi related, but this year the bunch of new students we recruited were a lot more enthusastic about trying new systems.Something I didn't see anyone touching:
Where D&D3 was exclusive, D&D5 is inclusive. Where D&D3 trained a horde of teens that only played D&D and nothing else while preaching it's Magic: the Gathering like class-feats-combos as the be-all end-all (oops, forgot the saying, sorry) of RPG, D&D5 encompass a wider gamut of styles and makes it's players open-minded enough to look and try other games as potential sources of good ideas to mine, be it narrative, OSR or something completely different. And I find this awesome.
Well at least this is the pattern I see in my circle of D&D players. I don't have data to confirm it as a universal trend . Does it relate somehow to your experiences?
Not to say what you describe didn't happen, but my experience was the opposite. I ran 3E with a group of casual and noob players, and while they had fun for a while, they had such system fatigue with character building and long combats that when I proposed playing Savage Worlds as it was quicker and easier, it was one of the easiest game pitches I have ever made. They eagerly gave it a try and never looked back.Something I didn't see anyone touching:
Where D&D3 was exclusive, D&D5 is inclusive. Where D&D3 trained a horde of teens that only played D&D and nothing else while preaching it's Magic: the Gathering like class-feats-combos as the be-all end-all (oops, forgot the saying, sorry) of RPG, D&D5 encompass a wider gamut of styles and makes it's players open-minded enough to look and try other games as potential sources of good ideas to mine, be it narrative, OSR or something completely different. And I find this awesome.
Well at least this is the pattern I see in my circle of D&D players. I don't have data to confirm it as a universal trend . Does it relate somehow to your experiences?
I like Palladium, BRP, and as a young man GURPS.
Color me unsurprised.There were a handful of lasses who'd come across the concept of roleplaying via Yogscast - specifically a Call of Cthulhu session. They were notably the ones most attracted to lesser known games and unusual settings and they steered clear of high fantasy entirely. (They actually remind me pretty strongly of the kind of women that were attracted to WOD in the early nineties).
I think the difference is that he's describing players who retained a nice attitude towards the previous system, while you're describing a case of "this sucks mightily, what did you say about an alternative?"Not to say what you describe didn't happen, but my experience was the opposite. I ran 3E with a group of casual and noob players, and while they had fun for a while, they had such system fatigue with character building and long combats that when I proposed playing Savage Worlds as it was quicker and easier, it was one of the easiest game pitches I have ever made. They eagerly gave it a try and never looked back.
Well, my players liked 3E in the early going. I didn't actually realize they were as ground down by the increasing crunch as I was until I suggested an alternative.Color me unsurprised.
I think the difference is that he's describing players who retained a nice attitude towards the previous system, while you're describing a case of "this sucks mightily, what did you say about an alternative?"
Something I didn't see anyone touching:
Where D&D3 was exclusive, D&D5 is inclusive. Where D&D3 trained a horde of teens that only played D&D and nothing else while preaching it's Magic: the Gathering like class-feats-combos as the be-all end-all (oops, forgot the saying, sorry) of RPG, D&D5 encompass a wider gamut of styles and makes it's players open-minded enough to look and try other games as potential sources of good ideas to mine, be it narrative, OSR or something completely different. And I find this awesome.
Well at least this is the pattern I see in my circle of D&D players. I don't have data to confirm it as a universal trend . Does it relate somehow to your experiences?
40.How old are you?
Something I didn't see anyone touching:
Where D&D3 was exclusive, D&D5 is inclusive. Where D&D3 trained a horde of teens that only played D&D and nothing else while preaching it's Magic: the Gathering like class-feats-combos as the be-all end-all (oops, forgot the saying, sorry) of RPG, D&D5 encompass a wider gamut of styles and makes it's players open-minded enough to look and try other games as potential sources of good ideas to mine, be it narrative, OSR or something completely different. And I find this awesome.
Well at least this is the pattern I see in my circle of D&D players. I don't have data to confirm it as a universal trend . Does it relate somehow to your experiences?
At the very least, in Fall ICv2 had V5 in the top five list.
I imagine most of them wouldn’t register in terms of sales regardless. Drivethru’s sales Milestones are tiny, tiny numbers, that D&D almost certainly annihilates without blinking.Coincidentally, have you ever wondered by we don't see top-selling indie RPG sellers from DTRPG on ICV2's list? Because DTRPG's relationship with Ingram's Lighting Source requires DTRPG to generate unique ISBNs that don't feed into NPD Bookscan (which is the primary source ICV2 uses to evaluate best selling titles).
If anyone is paying attention to ICV2 reports and NPD Bookscan, you can see that non-traditionally popular RPGs are experiencing a big boom. If you know anything about the trad book world, cover-facing placement is everything. Take a look at what's spine forward at your local brick & mortar, and look at what's being placed cover first. Alliance and GTS are showing ever-growing sales around non-D&D properties, and brick & mortar are giving these titles cover-facing placement. Pick up last month's GTS Magazine to understand what I mean.
The fact of the matter is that Gen Z, who is the largest growing demographic of the D&D market, is maturing beyond it. As they have aged/have more funds, they're actively scouting for new RPGs. However, the experience they have with D&D (influencer-driven gaming, lifestyle branding, digital toolsets, event-driven stories, high end luxury gaming items) will make 'hooking them' with other RPGs extraordinarily difficult. Why you ask? Because other RPG companies fall flat in this respect - they can't seem to get it right. The example I always compare to is Amazon shopping: all other online CPG experiences fall flat compared to Amazon, because Amazon offers THE best shopping experience. Gen Z (and some Gen Y) who discovered D&D 5e as their first game (e.g. Amazon) will compare other RPG experiences back to D&D. And if it's not met, they'll be less likely to become customers you'll be able to nurture; they'll be one and done.
If the D&D experience is the best RPG experience, then companies who want to attract Gen Z customers must develop an MVP that models this. They don't even need to compete against D&D; they just need to do it better than other RPG companies whose name doesn't start with Wizards and end with Coast. Whoever can get their first will be the next Paizo. My opinion is that licenses aren't enough any more: they won't win in the long run. Customer-centric experiences do, and it is a truism across every market.
I'm considering a panel at GenCon about this very topic: how to master the RPG ecosystem from a marketing perspective.
Speaking as a former Borders employee, cover-facing placement can mean a number of things. If there are enough copies in stock that a book can be shelved face-forward while taking up the same or less space than putting it spine-forward, booksellers could put any book face-forward at their whim. You'd also get fans of a book (and the authors, of course) turning it face forward while browsing too.If anyone is paying attention to ICV2 reports and NPD Bookscan, you can see that non-traditionally popular RPGs are experiencing a big boom. If you know anything about the trad book world, cover-facing placement is everything. Take a look at what's spine forward at your local brick & mortar, and look at what's being placed cover first.
Speaking as a former Borders employee, cover-facing placement can mean a number of things. If there are enough copies in stock that a book can be shelved face-forward while taking up the same or less space than putting it spine-forward, booksellers could put any book face-forward at their whim. You'd also get fans of a book (and the authors, of course) turning it face forward while browsing too.
Then there were books that had "shelf talkers", those little cardboard strips under a book on the shelf that have a blurb about a book. When I started at Borders, those were something staff could make on their own to recommend a book they liked, but they largely stopped that in favor of pre-printed shelf talkers that were sent out by corporate. Shelf talkers meant a book was either overstocked, the published was paying for it to be featured, and there were also books that got shelf talkers simply for being classics. Ender's Game, Nineteen Eighty-Four, and To Kill a Mockingbird perpetually seemed to have mandated shelf talkers.
Then there were the endcaps, the books on the display on the end of the side of the bookcase. Those were almost entirely paid advertising space, and we had to police them throughout the day to make sure they were correct in case a checker for a publisher came by and saw their book wasn't there.
My point here is that if you see a book facing forward in a store, it is hard to make any judgment about its popularity. It may even mean that that the book is overstocked due to not being as popular as originally thought.
Still do not understand why people like quoting icv2.
I find dealing with Gen-Z as straightforward as dealing with any other arbitrary group of people. Play sessions with them, listen to what they have to say, be honest with yourself about their reactions, and if you find something that works with your vision then tweak. Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with the results.
The problem is that it is labor intensive to do this. You have to go to open game nights at stores, use VTTs, or conventions to get a broad enough spectrum of players to see the process to completion.
As is so often the case, I think that's an Internet thing, rather than something that actually happens at game tables.The other problem is that when anyone expresses an interest in anything other than exactly what some old schoolers think is ideal play, they get mocked.
Asking Gen-Zers or any other gamers what they want out of a game has to come with actually listening and not treating what they are saying as "entitled" or anything like that.
So, with more kiddie gloves than were applied to dealing with Gen Xers?The other problem is that when anyone expresses an interest in anything other than exactly what some old schoolers think is ideal play, they get mocked.
Asking Gen-Zers or any other gamers what they want out of a game has to come with actually listening and not treating what they are saying as "entitled" or anything like that.
It more far more naunced than that. My opinion is that both side of the argument miss the point.The other problem is that when anyone expresses an interest in anything other than exactly what some old schoolers think is ideal play, they get mocked.
If I wasn't clear, you play and listen. Not the same thing as asking what one likes. Playing and watching what is far more informative. I agree with needing to get past one bias over whether they feel they are "entitled" or not.Asking Gen-Zers or any other gamers what they want out of a game has to come with actually listening and not treating what they are saying as "entitled" or anything like that.