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I'm just saying that there is a hell of a lot of derision towards other playstyles. Even on this site, where people come from a lot of different backgrounds and opinions on games, you can look around and see posts, probably posts even from today, that boil down to "Those Darn Kids" (I mean, look at the D&D question thread on CR.

And usually the "those darn kids" attitudes don't even actually ADDRESS what the person is saying, but some preconceived notion or exaggeration that is wholly madeup in the head of the person who is criticizing.

Everyone wants to pretend their biases aren't part of the problem, but I find 99% of the time when there is a style conflict between two gamers, both sides are generally reasonable, they just want different things. And then both sides will go back to their own camps and act like the other person is crazy/horrible/entitled/etc.
 
I'm just saying that there is a hell of a lot of derision towards other playstyles. Even on this site, where people come from a lot of different backgrounds and opinions on games, you can look around and see posts, probably posts even from today, that boil down to "Those Darn Kids" (I mean, look at the D&D question thread on CR.

I agree, but trying to "fix" it directly doesn't work. But the good news is that since our hobby is about doing something, playing in a RPG campaign, showing is often effective. Imagine what would have happen if Goodman Games hadn't done their road tours prior to the release of the DCC RPG. But because they did those tours, the release of the DCC RPG didn't come with the usual vitriol.

Everybody knew what it was about, a lot of people played in a playtest. And for those that didn't often knew somebody who did. Coupled with the Goodman Games staff's attitude, it release was pretty smooth for something that was very different than the usual fare.
 
I really think you are missing the point I'm making entirely.
 
I'm just saying that there is a hell of a lot of derision towards other playstyles. Even on this site, where people come from a lot of different backgrounds and opinions on games, you can look around and see posts, probably posts even from today, that boil down to "Those Darn Kids" (I mean, look at the D&D question thread on CR.

And usually the "those darn kids" attitudes don't even actually ADDRESS what the person is saying, but some preconceived notion or exaggeration that is wholly madeup in the head of the person who is criticizing.

Everyone wants to pretend their biases aren't part of the problem, but I find 99% of the time when there is a style conflict between two gamers, both sides are generally reasonable, they just want different things. And then both sides will go back to their own camps and act like the other person is crazy/horrible/entitled/etc.
I'm not sure that most of the people prone to going on about entitled young people are even on the radar of most Gen Z roleplayers.
 
I'm just saying that there is a hell of a lot of derision towards other playstyles. Even on this site, where people come from a lot of different backgrounds and opinions on games, you can look around and see posts, probably posts even from today, that boil down to "Those Darn Kids" (I mean, look at the D&D question thread on CR.

And usually the "those darn kids" attitudes don't even actually ADDRESS what the person is saying, but some preconceived notion or exaggeration that is wholly madeup in the head of the person who is criticizing.

Everyone wants to pretend their biases aren't part of the problem, but I find 99% of the time when there is a style conflict between two gamers, both sides are generally reasonable, they just want different things. And then both sides will go back to their own camps and act like the other person is crazy/horrible/entitled/etc.

Ehehehe, I may have made a post or two in that general vein...

In my defense, what I object to with these darn, lousy, no-good kids today is that they keep wanting to have a dialogue and reach a consensus wherein everyone's personal preferences are respected. And that's terrible, because it ruins one of the main appeals of tabletop roleplaying, namely that it allows me to interact with other human beings in a way that's sufficiently regimented and structured that I don't collapse into a black hole of social anxiety. :tongue:
 
We have any actual Gen-Zers in the house? Otherwise it’s just people who don’t know what they’re talking about criticizing them and different people who also don’t know what they’re talking about, riding to the rescue.
 
We have any actual Gen-Zers in the house? Otherwise it’s just people who don’t know what they’re talking about criticizing them and different people who also don’t know what they’re talking about, riding to the rescue.

I mean, I play with Gen-Zers, because my children are Gen-Zers.

Also, it's extrapolating from my own experience as not being in the same age group as "old schoolers" (I'm a millennial, I've been playing RPGs for 30 years, but that is because I started playing them very young). I can't say my experience has been the most welcoming with older gamers. I would have thought people older than me would be more mature about personal taste in elfgames, but I've found they sure as hell aren't.

You know, I just thought it would be cool if my kids got a less rude ass welcoming into the hobby than I did if they decide to join in outside of our personal table.

But I guess that is just terrible to suggest that people be better.
 
We have any actual Gen-Zers in the house? Otherwise it’s just people who don’t know what they’re talking about criticizing them and different people who also don’t know what they’re talking about, riding to the rescue.
More than half my group this year were Gen Z, so I have experience of gaming with them at least.
 
I mean, I play with Gen-Zers, because my children are Gen-Zers.

Also, it's extrapolating from my own experience as not being in the same age group as "old schoolers" (I'm a millennial, I've been playing RPGs for 30 years, but that is because I started playing them very young). I can't say my experience has been the most welcoming with older gamers. I would have thought people older than me would be more mature about personal taste in elfgames, but I've found they sure as hell aren't.

You know, I just thought it would be cool if my kids got a less rude ass welcoming into the hobby than I did if they decide to join in outside of our personal table.

But I guess that is just terrible to suggest that people be better.

You know, I'm split right down the middle on this one.

On the one hand, yes, people could damn well stand to be a little nicer. In particular, the mindset of "I don't have to be nice, because I'm RIGHT!" needs to die in a fire. (especially since the people who has it are, quite frankly, usually not especially right)

On the other hand, as an autistic person, I can't help it notice that calls to civility always seem to go right past avoiding outright rudeness and straight into a sort of constant hyper-empathy that I am simply not capable of sustaining.
 
My main problem is when people basically start implying that the reason that people don't like certain styles is because of some kind of character flaw.

I, for instance, don't like the meat grinder feel of early old school D&D where one bad roll and your character is dead. Even when we first started playing with AD&D, after the first couple of campaigns, we tended to start at level 2 usually 3 to avoid the early level insta-death. There are a lot of people who act like not wanting to use throwaway characters until one happens to luck out and survive as saying something about who they are as a person, rather than just not enjoying that type of gameplay.
 
There are a lot of people who act like not wanting to use throwaway characters until one happens to luck out and survive as saying something about who they are as a person, rather than just not enjoying that type of gameplay.
The only time I think that is an issue is if the person joins a group where that IS the stated style of play... and then pitches a fit when their character snuffs it. Our Wednesday night group seems to attract those folks.
 
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We have any actual Gen-Zers in the house? Otherwise it’s just people who don’t know what they’re talking about criticizing them and different people who also don’t know what they’re talking about, riding to the rescue.
My wife is Gen-Z. She is pretty shameless about gaming as a shared power fantasy i.e. overcoming challenges and kicking ass while playing an idealized alter-ego with friends. Not that she speaks for her entire generation of course but I find it odd when people act as if Gen-Z is a different species or something.
 
The other problem is that when anyone expresses an interest in anything other than exactly what some old schoolers think is ideal play, they get mocked.

I've only ever noticed this on TheRPGSite, but then, the culture of that forum is all about mocking anyone who isn't towing the line. Then again, I don't frequent any OSR-specific forums, but assuming that's where this is primarily happening, why would anyone go on an OSR forum and start talking about narrative or modern playstyles in the first place? I mean, I'd expect anyone going on RPGnet, Dragonsfoot, or the Storygames forums and talking about Rulings vs Rules or Sandbox play to get mocked. But I haven't really seen that happen on The Pub at least. I know our forum tends to skew older (I only just realized this week that I'm the youngest Mod - it's been a while in my life since I've been the youngest anything), but we have posters here who regularly talk about PBTA, Cortex, and Fate, as well as posters like myself who simply don't play D&D at all in any edition.

Asking Gen-Zers or any other gamers what they want out of a game has to come with actually listening and not treating what they are saying as "entitled" or anything like that.

I think the question itself is bizarre. If someone asked me when I started role-playing what I "wanted" out of an RPG, I'd probably not be able to muster anything more specific than "to have fun" or "to play an elf". Playstyle preferences aren't inherent, they form over time. I certainly wouldn't subject any new player to the horrors of RPG theory or the associated terminology. Like Tubgirl, that's a rabbithole they're going to have to stumble down on their own (or not, the vast majority of people I've gamed with over the years have no inclination to set foot in an RPG-themed forum or read essays about plastyles).

I think RPGs are way better suited to just diving in and trying things out, I can't see anything to be gained by encouraging someone new to the hobby to define limitations for themselves. It's like music - you don't ask a kid "what kind of music do you like?" and then just play those songs, you throw on everything under the sun, blues, classical, rap, punk, heavy metal, 90s alternative, 80s bubblepop, Weird Al, 70's progressive, etc. A person has their entire life to decide what they like or don't like.
 
I'm not talking about playing with Gen Zers who've never played RPGs before. There are plenty of them that have already played and already developed their own style and what they want out of the game.

By the time I was the age the older Gen Zers are now I'd played RPGs for like 15+ years. Also, I'll be honest, a lot of things can be discovered very early if you just talk to people, it's not about straight out asking. If someone has made a character and they have tons of backstory and are really into the character, you can probably guess pretty quick they don't expect them to get shot in the eye and die in the first session.

And if you think people on this forum never does the "Kids these Days" I think you are just missing it. The key is that if you hear a story told by someone here, you should probably take the "what happened" part with a large grain of salt. I've seen several stories that were told here that basically boiled down to "kids these days are entitled because they want X in games" but were told in ways that I feel the writer was omitting parts of the discussion that would have made the situation more balanced based on a personal experience.

Or just look at the thoughts about players wanting to encounter things that are reasonable encounters fro them over in the questions about 5e thread that was last week. While not my style, I can understand if people want to play a style of game more like video games where they are expected to be able to take on most things they can reasonably encounter. There is nothing wrong with that style. It's a power fantasy, but if that is what people want out of games, then that is perfectly fine.
 
And if you think people on this forum never does the "Kids these Days" I think you are just missing it.
Hah hah, I'm fully aware people talk like that on this board, I just refuse to dignify it with any kind of response. If there's one things grogs love, it's one upping each other with tales of masochistic gameplay and "Those damn kids today" like they were in that Monty Python skit.
 
Hah hah, I'm fully aware people talk like that on this board, I just refuse to dignify it with any kind of response. If there's one things grogs love, it's one upping each other with tales of masochistic gameplay and "Those damn kids today" like they were in that Monty Python skit.


Maybe I just tune that sort of stuff out by this point, which is why I have no memories of it.
 
And if you think people on this forum never does the "Kids these Days" I think you are just missing it.

It's entirely possible, or I'm reading it as a "grumpy grognard" joke; I'm sure I've done that on occasion. But I assume that isnt what you mean.


The key is that if you hear a story told by someone here, you should probably take the "what happened" part with a large grain of salt.

In most cases when a person tells me a story, I don't really believe or disbelieve it, I just sort of accept it, unless I have a reason not to.
 
Yep started playing AD&D when I was 6 years old. (Oldest gen zers are 24 now)
 
Yep started playing AD&D when I was 6 years old. (Oldest gen zers are 24 now)

2019 - 1997 = 22

(noting 1997 is the earliest date accepted by The American Psychological Association, The Futures Company, the marketing agency Frank N. Magid Associates, and The Shand Group. In general, by far most definitions place it as those born in 2000 or later, which frankly is the only definition that makes sense to me in light of calling the previous generation "millenials")

Anyways, I'm admittedly engaging in a tangential pedanticism. I'll admit that I would NEVER, regardless of the generation, ask a player what kind of playstyle they want from a game I'm running, or even entertain them having any input. If I am GMing, they are getting my playstyle.
 
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That assumes that you only have one GM style and you are rigid in it. I've found that I'm not. I run different games with different styles and will also adjust how I'm running the game depending on what the players seem to be enjoying or not about it.

Also, having started so young is why I think I always get put in weird categories in peoples heads. I am only in my mid 30s, but I've been playing RPGs for nearly 30 years. I'm a "Millennial Gamer" but I've been playing as long as a lot of people much older than me.
 
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That assumes that you only have one GM style and you are rigid in it. I've found that I'm not. I run different games with different styles and will also adjust how I'm running the game depending on what the players seem to be enjoying or not about it.

Yeah, I have one style. It's not a matter of rigidity, it's a matter of personality. I GM the way I do because who I am.
 
Everyone wants to pretend their biases aren't part of the problem, but I find 99% of the time when there is a style conflict between two gamers, both sides are generally reasonable, they just want different things. And then both sides will go back to their own camps and act like the other person is crazy/horrible/entitled/etc.
So, exactly like in life:smile:?

I mean, I play with Gen-Zers, because my children are Gen-Zers.

Also, it's extrapolating from my own experience as not being in the same age group as "old schoolers" (I'm a millennial, I've been playing RPGs for 30 years, but that is because I started playing them very young). I can't say my experience has been the most welcoming with older gamers. I would have thought people older than me would be more mature about personal taste in elfgames, but I've found they sure as hell aren't.

You know, I just thought it would be cool if my kids got a less rude ass welcoming into the hobby than I did if they decide to join in outside of our personal table.

But I guess that is just terrible to suggest that people be better.
Right, and going by my age I'm a Gen Xer* who has played for 20 years after starting relatively late in life, and I try to attract my children to RPGs. Even my oldest, however, is born after the Gen Z, so I've got no idea what they're planning to call them:wink:.
But one thing is for sure. I've almost always, notable exceptions aside, felt much more hostility from younger gamers than from the really old-school ones.
Mileages really vary, don't they:grin:?

*If it even matters. I suspect "generations" don't exactly map between continents.

Anyways, I'm admittedly engaging in a tangential pedanticism. I'll admit that I would NEVER, regardless of the generation, ask a player what kind of playstyle they want from a game I'm running, or even entertain them having any input. If I am GMing, they are getting my playstyle.

Same here. I might revise said style if I want to try something new, but I don't do it on demand...well, maybe I'd consider it if I was getting paid. Maybe.
The only time I was actually getting paid, however, the clients had no such requirements. So the point is moot:tongue:.

Yeah, I have one style. It's not a matter of rigidity, it's a matter of personality. I GM the way I do because who I am.
And that's the reason why for me, too. I have experimented with basically all the playstyles I've seen listed*


*Take the words railroading/participationism, illusionism, mission-based, time-based, location-based, sandbox and narrativist. Mix and match to your heart's content. I've tried basically all the possible permutations of those.
Reason: people kept assuring me that the style that I like is a road to disaster, that I should listen to what the players want (back then I played with people who wanted to be railroaded), and that even if the style that made sense to me worked, it could never last an entire campaign.
Me listening to them almost lead me to drop RPGs. But then I figured if I'm about to leave, I might as well try a campaign with the much-maligned Refereeing style...blaze of glory and all that:gunslinger:!
And I had my first "canary" in the face of my wife (who wanted to play). I figured if I'm going to announce I'm not running any more, I should at least try everything.
Le sigh. I should have tried it much sooner!

My main problem is when people basically start implying that the reason that people don't like certain styles is because of some kind of character flaw.
If it's a character flaw, I've got several of those, because there's enough styles that I dislike.
So what?

You know, I'm split right down the middle on this one.

On the one hand, yes, people could damn well stand to be a little nicer. In particular, the mindset of "I don't have to be nice, because I'm RIGHT!" needs to die in a fire. (especially since the people who has it are, quite frankly, usually not especially right)

On the other hand, as an autistic person, I can't help it notice that calls to civility always seem to go right past avoiding outright rudeness and straight into a sort of constant hyper-empathy that I am simply not capable of sustaining.
Don't worry. I'm not autistic, AFAIK...and I'm totally incapable of sustaining that level of hyper-empathy, either:shade:.
Also, I see very little reason to reach such extents. Civility is one thing, what is being demanded is another.
 
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Still do not understand why people like quoting icv2.
There aren't that many other concrete ways to show what's selling. The data's not perfect but it give's us more to discuss than what we feel is selling.

More than half my group this year were Gen Z, so I have experience of gaming with them at least.
Quite a few at our club, too. They seem like perfectly fine people, I just don't play with them that much because many of them really like Pathfinder.

But, you know, that's how younger generations work, they get to 18 and then they start showing up at clubs wanting to roleplay :smile:
 
Do the grogs get grumpy? Sure. Do they paint “the kids today” with a broad brush? Sometimes, yes.
But the kind of demonization Norton (and others like Voros and Brady) gets up to is no different, really.

Stereotyping and making judgmental assumptions about people is bad only when the person doing it is 55+ I guess?

Let’s also be honest, if you’re prejudiced against something, it’s easy to find offence.
  • Drawing a distinction between things isn’t making a value judgment.
  • Declaring your preference for A isn’t making a value judgment about B or people who like B.
  • Even if you declare Rolemaster to be a superior, more intellectually stimulating, more challenging, more immersive, etc RPG than Risus, you’re not claiming you’re a superior person to people who like Risus.
  • Disagreeing with someone isn't taking it personally.
A lot of this “personally insulting people who like a certain game” is just bullshit.

Now, having said that, is there some of that out there? Yes, of course. The amount and severity of it is being ridiculously blown out of proportion.
 
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The Pub has both old and young gamers and even though I’m the owner and can be considered biased, I’ve never been anywhere else that’s as welcoming to as many different kinds of RPGs and play styles. That’s a testament to the civility and frankly the maturity of the community here. Mocking people for the games they play? Please. Got no time for that.
 
EDIT: Nevermind. I'm not taking the bait. I was talking in a neutral tone about my experiences in the RPG community.

I attacked no one, but now I'm being attacked. I'm not going to deal with that.
 
I’m not attacking you, I’m attacking your assertion and your argument. Saying you’re wrong isn’t attacking you.
 
From a previous argument you said that me saying someone was making a judgement based on irrational reasons was a personal attack. You are accusing me of prejudice, which is making a judgement based on irrational reasons.

So, which is correct. Is accusing people of irrational behavior a personal attack or is it not?
 
I’m not attacking you, I’m attacking your assertion and your argument. Saying you’re wrong isn’t attacking you.
Krueger, if you are just attacking assertion's and arguments, was it really necessary to not only accuse Norton of demonization, but to drag in other names to widen the conflict?

Conversely, nobody mentioned you by name when they were talking about asshole older gamers who shit on new gamers. If you take criticism of that kind of behavior personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy.
 
Krueger, if you are just attacking assertion's and arguments, was it really necessary to not only accuse Norton of demonization, but to drag in other names to widen the conflict?

Conversely, nobody mentioned you by name when they were talking about asshole older gamers who shit on new gamers. If you take criticism of that kind of behavior personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

Sigh.
Add to bullet points above...Disagreeing with something isn't taking it personally, either.
To be honest, I don't think Norton was directly talking about me, I think, of the Pub goers, he had in mind, say, Gronan, with his "booger-eating morons who can't shit unassisted".

Yeah, I named people, because otherwise you get "They". "They" are an easy target and are used to perpetuate stereotypes, and also conveniently impossible to quote. I'm not a big fan of "They". If you're talking about gamers you met in the real world, it's hard to have any proof of behavior. When you're talking about what people do online, it's kinda easy to prove it if it's happening.

D&D is more popular than anytime since the first big 80's fad years, tabletop gaming of all kinds is exploding due to social media and we're supposed to believe some salty old dogs on a few gaming forums are some kind of gatekeeping "problem". It's horseshit. These terrible meanies aren't keeping hordes of new gamers from playing. They're just pissing you off.

We're a relatively small group of people who cross each other on different internet forums and sometimes get into it, like all hobbyists do. We have histories of conflict and all of us have opinions others of us simply don't agree with or like. I've been talking and arguing with Silva, for example, for probably close to 10 years. Things get magnified out of proportion.
 
From a previous argument you said that me saying someone was making a judgement based on irrational reasons was a personal attack. You are accusing me of prejudice, which is making a judgement based on irrational reasons.

So, which is correct. Is accusing people of irrational behavior a personal attack or is it not?
Hmm, interesting. To be honest, I don't consider being prejudiced, as in having already made up your mind, to be irrational. Everyone on the planet has biases and is prejudiced against certain ideas, that's kind of how brains work.

I can see how you would take it that way though, so I apologize. I still think the problem is not as widespread as you are claiming. Can you provide concrete examples so we can take a look at the issue in a less heated manner?
 
More to clarify, I'm not specifically saying it is common here, just that I find it a common experience I had (and that I do think it happens here from time to time, and Gronan is probably a good example of the type of behavior I'm talking about).

I don't have a problem with people not liking games, I have a problem with people judging gamers or trying to segment some gamers into some other hobby altogether.

Things like the whole meme of "x isn't even an RPG' is what I'm talking about in the latter case.

To be fair to this site, the only two people who I can think of that ever posted here that I have a legit problem and not a minor "happens occasionally" annoyance are Gronan (who I think is mostly joking but he comes off as so acerbic all the time that i find the persona obnoxious) and a person who is banned, though for unrelated reasons (who I will not mention by name, because that is a whole other can of worms.)

I agree that this site is much much better than most.

Also, I will admit that just by more people dying out, it may be less common than when I came into the larger RPG community. There were a lot more grumpy old schoolers still around when I finally started talking to gamers outside of my own personal group that I had as a kid. (Also remember I came from the Pub through a fun bouncing around of TBP which is so far to one side of crazy, to theRPGSite, which is so far to the other side of crazy, that in the end my opinions of some subjects are heavily tinged with that previous experience).
 
There aren't that many other concrete ways to show what's selling. The data's not perfect but it give's us more to discuss than what we feel is selling.
That's the point. It's not about what is selling it is what is being bought by certain distributors.
Sorry not gonna listen to Yums Brand telling me which fast food joints are selling the best.
 
Sigh.
Add to bullet points above...Disagreeing with something isn't taking it personally, either.
To be honest, I don't think Norton was directly talking about me, I think, of the Pub goers, he had in mind, say, Gronan, with his "booger-eating morons who can't shit unassisted".

Yeah, I named people, because otherwise you get "They". "They" are an easy target and are used to perpetuate stereotypes, and also conveniently impossible to quote. I'm not a big fan of "They". If you're talking about gamers you met in the real world, it's hard to have any proof of behavior. When you're talking about what people do online, it's kinda easy to prove it if it's happening.

Yeah, looking back, I can see you were talking more about Gronan than yourself. That said, I can't say I really care for Gronan's attitude on that issue. As someone that enjoys a lot about old school play, I feel he makes it harder to defend sometimes.

I can't say I am crazy about the term "demonization" being use for anything that anyone was doing in this thread. It seemed needlessly inflammatory.

D&D is more popular than anytime since the first big 80's fad years, tabletop gaming of all kinds is exploding due to social media and we're supposed to believe some salty old dogs on a few gaming forums are some kind of gatekeeping "problem". It's horseshit. These terrible meanies aren't keeping hordes of new gamers from playing. They're just pissing you off.
Well yeah, they do piss people off. And it isn't that they are gatekeeping as much as they are well-poisoning when it comes to forums. . They don't keep people out of a forum, but they make it lot less appealing, making every discussion of games that they don't like about their dislike of the game. Even before the political rot set in, it was the reason that RPG Site became a much more boring place to talk about games.
 
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Things like the whole meme of "x isn't even an RPG' is what I'm talking about in the latter case.

Yeah, I mean I've been railing against that since the Site. I'll admit, there was a time, initially, years ago, I sort of bought into it insofar as dividing between "traditional games" and "storygames", but that lasted until I realized 1) for many that is used a value judgement and storygames were thought of as somehow 'destroying the hobby' (in other words a paranoid fantasy of RPG enemies), and 2) that the definition being used for "storygames" amounted to nothing more than games written by people other people had a personal vendetta with. That's why I tend to prefer the term "narrative games" these days, as it doesn't carry as much of that implied that baggage of "badwrongfun".
 
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