Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - 2e vs 4e

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Acmegamer

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I haven’t seen them to comment. I was just trying to warn you Radiance had pygmies as a race separate from humans that I can guess were in even more poor taste than the miniatures might be, even beyond the “pygmies aren’t human” bit.
Well then, scroll your ass up the thread and look. Pictures of the Damm miniatures were posted TristramEvans TristramEvans post #153. Why comment to my reaction to that post if you hadn't even bothered to look at the post yourself? I was reacting to those posted pictures if you still aren't getting my point.
 

Ralph Dula

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Why comment to my reaction to that post if you hadn't even bothered to look at the post yourself? I was reacting to those posted pictures if you still aren't getting my point.

Because Radiance did a really horrible and creepy job portraying pygmies and I thought I might save you time and money if you ever thought about picking it up in the future.
 

Simlasa

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So, you don't agree that those miniatures are in bad taste?
If I started getting rid of all the miniatures I have that are 'bad taste'... I dunno... that's a lot. Can I keep my GWAR minis?
 

Gringnr

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If I started getting rid of all the miniatures I have that are 'bad taste'... I dunno... that's a lot. Can I keep my GWAR minis?. Those pygmies are just wrong.
"Bad taste" was me wearing a Killer Pussy t-shirt as a teenager. Those figures are just f'ed up, man. I haven't seen the GWAR figs, but I'm gonna guess they're nol... like that.

 

Baulderstone

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What were people's opinions of the 4E gnome?
I like the approach they took. Making them a hidden race makes obvious sense for beings specializing in illusion magic, but t also makes it easy for people to ignore them if they don't want them in the game, as well as explaining their erratic appearance in the canon. Magical tricksters are also just a natural fit for the game. The gnomes resentment of the High Elves also has a lot of plot hook potential.

They give more meaning to the wind of Ulgu as well. I didn't like it when the colleges of magic and their colors were added to WFRP, but they have done a good job of fleshing them out in a way that makes them far more interesting than their original WFB versions. Having mythological creatures associated with winds gives them more occult flavor.

They can even work as "monsters". I can see a fun horror adventure with a group of PCs lost on the Mirror Moors with a community of gnomes trying to scare their PCs away.
 

CRKrueger

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Andy Law says that he surprisingly got permission from Games Workshop to do some work on Lustria, but he doesn't know what the status of that is now. They weren't allowed to do anything for Cathay, which apparently belongs to the video game people now.

I'm personally glad they have stayed focused on the Reikland for the early part of the 4th edition line. I'd rather have one richly-detailed section of the world than a lot of vague nation splats, but they are at a good place to expand beyond that now. The setting and system have great potential for seafaring adventures that game has never really capitalized on. I remember longing for this kind of thing back in the 1E days.

It's not the opening I'd prefer, but it helps more than not giving advice on how to fix the broken parts of the game. Especially as the main advice is "use this one brief, optional rule that makes the dice easier to read and fixes almost everything broken in the game in one go."

It was a feature for me.

Something I didn't make clear in my last post is that you don't need to play or run TEW to find it useful, especially with the expanded edition. They are easy to breakdown for parts.

The character generation could be better organized, but I don't see any problem with having a list of background questions. Part of the fun of rolling up a random character is taking those results and figuring out who that person actually is. In any case, it's an easy thing to take or leave. The book even prefaces them with "One useful technique for creating an interesting background is..." It's just there to spur ideas.

In any case, WFRP characters aren't 1st-level B/X characters or DCC Funnel characters. They are all blessed with Fate Points, so they are going to be around for at least a few sessions. WFRP is also a game that looks to ground players in the setting. While it works just fine to roll up a character and go, it's also a game that is going to reward figuring out things like your character's family and connections.

I don't see how having backgrounds is at odds with comedy. Making PCs deal with their families has been a rich source of comedy in a lot of games I've played.


The first series revolved heavily around his family. Off the top of my head, I remember him having a rich Puritan aunt and uncle in the second series, and his Scottish Cousin MacAdder was in the third. Family is a good source of comedy.


It's a fun treatment of Halflings.
How was the original Man O’ War?
 

Baulderstone

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How was the original Man O’ War?
I think you have may have quoted me by accidentally, as I didn't mention it. I only played it once, shortly after it came out. I met up with my old gaming group from high school for the first time in a couple of years, and someone broke it out. I can't really say how good a game it was. Only one of us had read the rules, and everyone was as interested in catching up as they were in the game.
 

CRKrueger

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I think you have may have quoted me by accidentally, as I didn't mention it. I only played it once, shortly after it came out. I met up with my old gaming group from high school for the first time in a couple of years, and someone broke it out. I can't really say how good a game it was. Only one of us had read the rules, and everyone was as interested in catching up as they were in the game.
You were talking about a missed opportunity for naval action, and I was just wondering how much Man O’ War filled in. Some of those Specialist Games have a ton of Worldbuilding in them.

Edit: Probably would have helped if I quoted the right post.
 

Séadna

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So Ogres are implemented in random char gen just like Gnomes from Rough Nights and Hard Days by taking the 98 roll from Dwarves.

Screenshot 2021-11-22 at 13-11-35 WFRP_Archives_of_The_Empire_Vol_2 pdf.png

Careers:
The careers available to them are associated with their mercenary society, so they're pit fighters, grave robbers and so on. Rough roles on the lower ends of society. Each of the careers comes with an explanatory paragraph of how that career plays out for an Ogre. For example that in the Entertainer career they are usually circus strongmen.

Their only Academic career is Butcher. Which is their magic career! The magic can only be cast by consuming the innards and flesh of animals or even better obscure creatures. See below for more details. The two other new careers are basically a fighter type and a Rhinox herder. the Rhinox being the typical Ogre mount, a large hog.

Also included are descriptions of how Ogres would function in the advanced careers they might be promoted to. Like how an Ogre Witch Hunter typically doesn't care about theology or the law, but functions more as strongman and interrogator for an Imperial Witch Hunter team.

Their attribute rolls, as one would imagine, are weighted toward Strength and Toughness and lowered on Intelligence and Dexterity.

Species skills are:
Athletics, Consume Alcohol, Endurance, Entertain (Storytelling), Intimidate, Language (Grumbarth), Lore (Ogres), Melee (Basic), Melee (Brawling), Navigation, Outdoor Survival, Track

Certain skills are blocked off from ever being learned under the "Not stupid, just single-minded rule". Essentially literate skills are off the table without good reason.

Talents are:
Dirty Fighting, Large, Night Vision, Resistance (Poison (Ingested)), Very Resilient or Very Strong, Vice (Food)

The big draw here is the "Large" talent, which gives you the Large size from the rules on p.341 of the core book. So double wounds, Damaging quality for your weapons (best of unit or tens for damage bonus) and Deathblow: a successful attack lets you immediately move to the next foe and attack and you can do this a number of times equal to your weapon bonus. Others get negative penalties when attacking you (-2 SL). You cause Fear in most opponents.
It gets even worse for Halflings and Gnomes trying to attack an Ogre. All the size rules are summarised, so you don't need to refer back to the core.

They also have a special rule related to Vices which they have to resist indulging in. Common examples are food, alcohol, fighting, narcotics. The way the rules work a character probably should indulge their Vice once a day in a calm situation. Like scoffing a massive meal at a pub, otherwise it likely will interfere with their day. The book says it has to be an OTT indulgence, so a fighting vice probably means you'll have to kill somebody everyday.

All in all Ogres are simply vastly superior to other races in combat. This is intended to be balanced by how difficult it is to function in society. The book also mentions how they can be useful in party with weak characters perusing Academic or Burgher careers since they can single-handedly function as the muscle.

After that there are the typical hair and eye colour, etc tables.

Ogre melee weapons are a Club, Spear and Gauntlet. The only weapon of note is the Leadbelcher, an Ogre "rifle" which is actually a cannon. It does serious damage at +10 if loaded with random debris and +14 if loaded with an actual cannonball.

Their unique armour is for the Body and has a nice 3 AP rating.

Magic:
As mentioned above Ogre butchers eat the organs of beasts and their powerful gut then pulls on the winds of magic in an appropriate way. For example consuming the entire head of a beast, projecting the creatures nightmares and doubling the Ogres innate Fear talent to Fear 2!
Consuming the body of a large beast (CN of 11) summons a massive Sarlac-like worm beast from the Warp!

The section finishes off with details on their typical mount, the Rhinox.

I'd love to play a Butcher at this point!

Screenshot 2021-11-22 at 12-30-34 WFRP_Archives_of_The_Empire_Vol_2 pdf.png
 
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Séadna

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I should have described the rest of Archives II's content.

Screenshot 2021-11-24 at 23-34-16 WFRP_Archives_of_The_Empire_Vol_2 pdf.png

In summary:
  1. Two chapters dealing with Ogres. History, Society and Char Gen as above.

  2. A chapter on the birth star signs of characters. Similar to Morrowind and Oblivion CRPGs. Gives a typical horoscope style summary of the those born under the star sign and some mechanical effects. These are modifiers to Attributes or a bonus level in a Talent.

  3. Magic Items. Basically treasure tables for melee weapons, arrows, armour, shields, rings, wands and talismans. Examples are wands that double spell range or spell length and a sword whose wielder cannot be fatigues and is unbreakable.

    The melee weapons also get a table for generating their origin, such as once being owned by a tyrant and possibly recognised by the peasantry to this day. There's also a table of curses and quirks to add to items such as the item being a source of Chaotic corruption.

    Although magical armour and shields often have special abilities their main feature is blocking spells that ignore armour.

  4. A chapter on the largest asylum in the Empire: The Great Hospice. Seen in the image above. This comes with detailed floor plans NPCs, minor missions based around the hospice and hooks to tie it into campaigns like The Enemy Within or a home campaign. NPCs include an assassin who survived an encounter with a Chaos necromancer and was left catatonic, as well as the Emperor's prophetic sister whom the staff think is neither prophetic nor royal.

  5. A chapter on mass combat rules. This includes full on war machines like trebuchets and mortars. It's not a semi-wargame or anything, think more along the lines of Savage Worlds or BECMI mass combat if you know them.

  6. A one page appendix on psychological disorders to tie in to the Asylum chapter.
Screenshot 2021-11-24 at 23-33-35 WFRP_Archives_of_The_Empire_Vol_2 pdf.png
 

Baulderstone

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I'm enjoying this Archives of the Empire format, and I hope they continue it again next year. It's like a compilation of WFRP articles from a year of White Dwarf that doesn't exist.
 

AsenRG

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I just moved, so I put a lock on game spending until after Dec 1st, at which point I'll order this bad boy.
Ah, so those discounts I saw today were meant to draw you back...figures:shade:!
 

Mankcam

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I really dig WFRP, any edition except 3rd edition.
I must say I'm pretty happy with how C7 is handling WFRP 4E at present, it's pretty much on my list of rpgs that I am trying to collect most of the products for :thumbsup:
 

Séadna

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So C7 has decided to walk down the Monster Races as Player Characters path for WFRP.

A shame.
There's a dude who eats flesh to summon magic. Do you have no heart?

Really though:

(a) I don't really see playing monster races as some a priori bad thing. The concept is in Holmes D&D, he talks about playing a wearbear, and in several other RPGs.

(b) I don't really think Ogres are a "monster" race in WFRP. That is so monstrous as to be impossible to play in a standard game. The fact that there are settled Imperial Ogres goes back to 2E at least, with plenty of fan PDFs for playing them in 2E. One by Andy Law from 2005. In 3E they were a playable race. I don't remember how they were portrayed in 1E across the whole line, but the core describes them as "They are not an overly cruel race, but they are brutal and have little respect for the weak or helpless". There was a 1E supplement planned for them:
 
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Ladybird

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So C7 has decided to walk down the Monster Races as Player Characters path for WFRP.

A shame.
WFRP2e had rules for playing Skaven and Vampires. And the fluff has had Ogres as inhabitants of and mercenaries for the Empire since way back (WHFB4e at least), so you could probably make a solid argument for them being more appropriate as PC's than Elves.
 

Jaeger

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I don't really see playing monster races as some a priori bad thing.

I do.


The concept is in Holmes D&D, he talks about playing a wearbear,

Holmes wasn't perfect. But I forgive him.


I don't really think Ogres are a "monster" race in WFRP. That is so monstrous as to be impossible to play in a standard game. The fact that there are settled Imperial Ogres goes back to 2E at least, with plenty of fan PDFs for playing them in 2E. One by Andy Law from 2005. In 3E they were a playable race. I don't remember how they were portrayed in 1E across the whole line, but the core describes them as "They are not an overly cruel race, but they are brutal and have little respect for the weak or helpless". There was a 1E supplement planned for them:

Mr. law had to Change their origin from 1e to make them "playable". He had to make them not former humans that were mutated by Chaos.

And the 1e supplement being canned was a good thing.


WFRP2e had rules for playing Skaven and Vampires.

In supplementary material, not the core book.

And it still wasn't a good idea back then either.


And the fluff has had Ogres as inhabitants of and mercenaries for the Empire since way back (WHFB4e at least), so you could probably make a solid argument for them being more appropriate as PC's than Elves.

Nope.

Ogres are in the Bestiary in WFRP 1e. Elves are in the PC section.

Ogres are known to be former humans mutated by Chaos.

And in WFRP: Mutants are for the killing.
 

Malleustein

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Children of the Horned Rat was an amazing sourcebook though, I have such fond memories of my skaven campaign. My players were unsure, especially due to a few early casualties (because Skaven culture is nasty), but they all got really invested in it after that. Skaven are such fun black hats, and while I couldn't referee them constantly, I certainly enjoyed what we did with them.

Honestly, of the non-core, non-key supplements (magic, armoury, etc.) I think we got more out of 'Horned Rat than any of the others.
 

Jaeger

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Children of the Horned Rat was an amazing sourcebook though, I have such fond memories of my skaven campaign. My players were unsure, especially due to a few early casualties (because Skaven culture is nasty), but they all got really invested in it after that. Skaven are such fun black hats, and while I couldn't referee them constantly, I certainly enjoyed what we did with them.

Honestly, of the non-core, non-key supplements (magic, armoury, etc.) I think we got more out of 'Horned Rat than any of the others.

An all Skaven campaign would be an absolute blast.

I have no issue with focused “black hat” campaigns. They can be serious fun.

It’s when that Skaven/Orc/Troll/Ogre is now seen as part of the regular adventuring group in the WFRP world that WFRP stops being WFRP.

If I want to play in a game where my Ogre Bard helps the party’s Skaven rat catcher, Dwarf Slayer, and Human Witch Hunter to rescue the other players Elven sorceress from a group of cultists... There might be another game that caters better to eclectic adventuring groups like that setting wise.

I hear it’s pretty popular...
 

Ladybird

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Mr. law had to Change their origin from 1e to make them "playable". He had to make them not former humans that were mutated by Chaos.

And the 1e supplement being canned was a good thing.




In supplementary material, not the core book.

And it still wasn't a good idea back then either.




Nope.

Ogres are in the Bestiary in WFRP 1e. Elves are in the PC section.

Ogres are known to be former humans mutated by Chaos.

And in WFRP: Mutants are for the killing.
This is being put in a supplementary book as well, fyi.

And also... a lot of the WFRP1e/early WHFB-era setting was fairly generic, and has been (re)developed and fleshed out over the course of the games and the increasing importance of the Old Ones. If we were playing 1e WFRP, sure, mutated humans, but nowadays we aren't and ogres have their own established (And IMO more interesting) background.
 

Séadna

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If I want to play in a game where my Ogre Bard helps the party’s Skaven rat catcher, Dwarf Slayer, and Human Witch Hunter to rescue the other players Elven sorceress from a group of cultists... There might be another game that caters better to eclectic adventuring groups like that setting wise.
I think this is exaggerating. The supplement gives rules for playing an Ogre, but it is made very clear that you are only reluctantly accepted throughout the Empire, you are playing a violent and rough race that exists on the lower ends of society and for a player to think it through before selecting an Ogre. It doesn't describe a situation where Ogres, Skaven, Carebears, etc all team up in a way that disregards the rest of the setting.
 

Baulderstone

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I think your picking the wrong hill to make your stand on this topic. Going back to its original core book, WFRP was a game where the PCs could come from vile backgrounds.
Mr. law had to Change their origin from 1e to make them "playable". He had to make them not former humans that were mutated by Chaos.
Law didn't work on this book. He left Cubicle 7 a while ago now. What change in origin are you talking about? I can't find any mention of the origin of Ogres in either the 4E core or the chapter in AotE2. It says they were first encountered in the area of that became the Empire 2000 years before Sigmar, but that doesn't rule them out as having once been human.

I'm also puzzled as to why you couldn't play them in they were actually mutated humans. PCs with mutations is.regular occurrence in WFRP.
And in WFRP: Mutants are for the killing.
Are they? Going back to 1E, WFRP has always been uncomfortably and deliberately ambivalent on this point.

I think it's important to remember that one of the main design goals of 4E was to make an edition that worked for all WFRP fans, whether you were a 1E purist or wanted the full gonzo of WFB. I think they are doing a good job of that. I have a total of 4 WFRP groups (Although only two of them meet on a weekly-ish basis). In one of them, I am running TEW campaign, and hewing closer to the tone 1E. I also have a game with my nephews where I have the fantasy dial cranked to the max. I'm finding 4E works fine for both.

As with the Gnome appendix in RN&HD, they have made Ogres extremely rare. If you want them use them. If you don't, they are very easy to ignore.
 

Ladybird

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Law didn't work on this book. He left Cubicle 7 a while ago now. What change in origin are you talking about? I can't find any mention of the origin of Ogres in either the 4E core or the chapter in AotE2. It says they were first encountered in the area of that became the Empire 2000 years before Sigmar, but that doesn't rule them out as having once been human.

I'm also puzzled as to why you couldn't play them in they were actually mutated humans. PCs with mutations is.regular occurrence in WFRP.
Ogres got a big fluff rewrite in WHFB6e (The Ogre Kingdoms army), with them probably being an unfinished Old Ones creation, and having a homeland in the far east. Their gluttonous culture is a bit memey but at least it's distinctive and feels Warhammery.

That said, if what you want is a group of big horrible lads to terrorise the countryside, the old fluff still works as a background for a group, it's just not the entire race.
Are they? Going back to 1E, WFRP has always been uncomfortably and deliberately ambivalent on this point.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of confusion between the Empire and the Imperium, as the big human factions in their settings.

The Empire is superstitious, and leaves obviously deformed children out in the woods to die (For example), but they're not genetic fascists. They're more open-minded and more focussed on infighting.
The Imperium is the one with the interesting stance on mutants, because they both hate and rely on them, but it's also a fact in that setting that there are mutants whose minds are literally a portal to hell... so maybe we can cut them a bit of slack on that one.
 

Malleustein

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An all Skaven campaign would be an absolute blast.

I have no issue with focused “black hat” campaigns. They can be serious fun.

It’s when that Skaven/Orc/Troll/Ogre is now seen as part of the regular adventuring group in the WFRP world that WFRP stops being WFRP.

If I want to play in a game where my Ogre Bard helps the party’s Skaven rat catcher, Dwarf Slayer, and Human Witch Hunter to rescue the other players Elven sorceress from a group of cultists... There might be another game that caters better to eclectic adventuring groups like that setting wise.

I hear it’s pretty popular...

I know folks are really discussing whether monstrous characters are suitable fits for party membership, the discussion of which I didn't really further. I just love 'Horned Rat! It never gets enough love.

The Age of Sigmar role-playing game has added the assorted undead as character options, but not as allies for the characters of law. I suspect they'll do the same for Chaos and Destruction characters along the way. So while 'heroes of law' will be the default, the other factions are viable, but likely to be mutually exclusive.

Hell, they added Lizardmen as an option to the heroes of Law, but make a point that they really don't fit the group due to a totally different world-view, cuture and no crossover language!

Ogres would primarily be heroes of Destruction in AoS. Some might exist to freeboot for the others, but primarily, they're all about the smashing and eating.
 

Baulderstone

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An all Skaven campaign would be an absolute blast.

I have no issue with focused “black hat” campaigns. They can be serious fun.

It’s when that Skaven/Orc/Troll/Ogre is now seen as part of the regular adventuring group in the WFRP world that WFRP stops being WFRP.

If I want to play in a game where my Ogre Bard helps the party’s Skaven rat catcher, Dwarf Slayer, and Human Witch Hunter to rescue the other players Elven sorceress from a group of cultists... There might be another game that caters better to eclectic adventuring groups like that setting wise.

I hear it’s pretty popular...

That sounds like a slippery slope issue rather than a problem with Ogres as they are presented in the book. It makes it clear that they aren’t something to be tossed into any campaign, both because of setting complications and because they are extremely powerful in combat. One of the recommended uses is if you are running a campaign were everyone plays a scholar, and they hire an ogre bodyguard to protect them. Ogres are also extremely limited in the careers and skill they can pursue. An Ogre bard is not something even possible in the game.

Even if I did want to run a game with a motley collection of different races, I would actually prefer to do it in WFRP than D&D. While I realized it varies from setting to setting, running a game like that in D&D is the generic default in D&D. It doesn’t present much in the way of possible drama. In WFRP, just blending humans, elves and dwarves can lead to issues, which I consider a good thing.

My personal tastes tend towards human parties in WFRP, especially with people new to the game. I like having the option to do weirder things in the game though.
 

Vile

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Anyone should be able to play any species of creature they like (I use neither "monster" nor "race" in my gaming). If a shop doesn't sell my favourite flavour of chocolate spread, I'll go elsewhere, and I expevt my players to do the same.

Oh, and Holmes was perfect!
 

AsenRG

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Anyone should be able to play any species of creature they like (I use neither "monster" nor "race" in my gaming). If a shop doesn't sell my favourite flavour of chocolate spread, I'll go elsewhere, and I expevt my players to do the same.
Sure, you should do as you please - and so should the people who view that matter differently:thumbsup:!

Oh, and Holmes was perfect!
Apart from the rules, sure:devil:!

I think your picking the wrong hill to make your stand on this topic. Going back to its original core book, WFRP was a game where the PCs could come from vile backgrounds.
Ratcatchers, you mean:grin:?
 

Skywalker

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One good thing about 4e books is that they are relatively easy to convert to 1e and 2e, having just acquired Horned Rat and Empire in Ruins.

My current idea is to run a Ultimate Cut of Enemy Within with the following blend of books from all 4 editions :grin:

- Rules (2e)
- Shadows over Bogenhafen to Power Behind the Throne (1e)
- Horned Rat (4e)
- Something Rotten in Kislev (1e)
- Empire in Ruins (4e)
- Enemy Within (3e).
 

Baulderstone

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One good thing about 4e books is that they are relatively easy to convert to 1e and 2e, having just acquired Horned Rat and Empire in Ruins.

My current idea is to run a Ultimate Cut of Enemy Within with the following blend of books from all 4 editions :grin:

- Rules (2e)
- Shadows over Bogenhafen to Power Behind the Throne (1e)
- Horned Rat (4e)
- Something Rotten in Kislev (1e)
- Empire in Ruins (4e)
- Enemy Within (3e).
I respect your ambition, and I agree it's relatively easy to convert adventure material between 1E, 2E, and 4E.
 
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