Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - 2e vs 4e

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sureshot

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I would probably not all Ogres or many other monster races if I ran warhanner rpg. Maybe it is the purist in me or just because I can do it in D&D I rather when playing another fantasy rpg not have a variation of D&D with another set of rules. One of the reasons why I would want to play or run a WArhammer campaign is because it is different. While I understand why the devs of 4E are trying to compete with d&D I find that it robs Warhammer of some of its uniqe flavor imo.
 

AsenRG

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I respect your ambition, and I agree it's relatively easy to convert adventure material between 1E, 2E, and 3E.
How easy is it to convert from 3e? Academic curiosity, kinda, since I don't own any 3e materials...but I know the system was different enough, like "dicepool with proprietary dice vs d100" different:grin:!

I mean, I can easily come up with something, too - probably "skills are [10+(Stat+Skill)*5]", which takes longer to type out than to calculate - but edges and so on would be a bitch, I suspect:shade:.

I would probably not all(ow?) Ogres or many other monster races if I ran warhanner rpg. Maybe it is the purist in me or just because I can do it in D&D I rather when playing another fantasy rpg not have a variation of D&D with another set of rules. One of the reasons why I would want to play or run a WArhammer campaign is because it is different. While I understand why the devs of 4E are trying to compete with d&D I find that it robs Warhammer of some of its uniqe flavor imo.
+1:thumbsup:.
 

CRKrueger

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Not sure why people are going apeshit. Ogres have been in the Empire for every edition of WFRP. They're hired by mercenary companies or even inducted into armies directly. They have also been used as bodyguards, etc. Sure, some areas would be pitchfork and torches, and even a "civilized" ogre would need to have someone to vouch for him and/or have papers designating his status.

It's not surprising at all that they would have Ogre PCs. Since Ulrika and Genevieve are such popular characters, I wouldn't be surprised at a Vampire PC option either.

However, that doesn't mean C7 is doing the WotC Freakshow.
 

Baulderstone

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How easy is it to convert from 3e? Academic curiosity, kinda, since I don't own any 3e materials...but I know the system was different enough, like "dicepool with proprietary dice vs d100" different:grin:!
That was a typo. I meant 4E, not 3E. I don't have any 3E products, so I have no opinion there.
 

Jaeger

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Not sure why people are going apeshit. ...

Who's going ape?

I've seen a marked lack of all bolded CAPS with exclamations in the replies for this exchange so far.


If we were playing 1e WFRP, sure, mutated humans, but nowadays we aren't and ogres have their own established (And IMO more interesting) background.

And I think that lore change was a mistake. I prefer the original 1e writeup.


Law didn't work on this book.

I was referring to his writeup on Imperial Ogres for 2e.


That sounds like a slippery slope issue rather than a problem with Ogres as they are presented in the book. ...

It is both, because one invariably leads to the other.

But they are very much part of a slippery slope issue.

In my opinion - This is why you should care:


I think this is exaggerating. The supplement gives rules for playing an Ogre, but it is made very clear that you are only reluctantly accepted throughout the Empire,...

It always starts in the supplements.

Always.

They can make it clear as they want to "that it is rare" etc,...

Because all the WFRP fans that care about and pay attention to stuff like: "only reluctantly accepted", "they aren’t something to be tossed into any campaign", "the supplement makes it clear", and want "a player to think it through"...

Will be up against:

Anyone should be able to play any species of creature they like (I use neither "monster" nor "race" in my gaming). If a shop doesn't sell my favourite flavour of chocolate spread, I'll go elsewhere, and I expect my players to do the same.

And you will eventually lose out to this viewpoint

You will.

Why?

Because this:


I think it's important to remember that one of the main design goals of 4E was to make an edition that worked for all WFRP fans, whether you were a 1E purist or wanted the full gonzo of WFB.

If the first in bold is always pushed; then the gonzo will always eventually win.

Why?

Because this will always be said:


As with the Gnome appendix in RN&HD, they have made Ogres extremely rare. If you want them use them. If you don't, they are very easy to ignore.

They always say that.

That You can just ignore it...

The onus will always be placed on those fans who like a more curated setting.

Always.

We have seen this phenomenon before in other games.

Tieflings, Dragonborn, Drow, Genasi, all the now standard menagerie of PC races started out in supplements. (With the exception of the half-orc.)

Why does the current inclusion of Ogres in 4e WFRP matter? Because it is a foot in the door in classic half-orc fashion. (Introduced as a PC race in the AD&D1e PHB - and yes, it was a mistake.)

For now you can say: "But Ogres have all these restrictions - and are not for every campaign..."

In AD&D1e Half-Orcs had serious level restrictions so they were not suitable for all classes or campaigns. And they are supposed to be able to pass as human.

So the Half-Orc went from a heavily restricted PC option, that was supposed to be able to pass as human... Now it is just a normal PC race, and one look at the Half-Orc art for 5e D&D tells you all you need to know about how far they have drifted from AD&D's 'pass as human'...

So while maybe not with 4e WFRP, but if monster races as PC's get no pushback because: "rare", "easy to ignore", and "in previous edition supplements they had rules for..." - they will appear as standard PC options in subsequent editions. 5e to 6e at the latest.

Of course many will think I'm entirely delusional. "It hasn't happened yet..."

WFRP has actually benefitted by having the rights bounce around as much as it has because every new edition has basically been a reboot.

But just wait until a company is able to publish more than one edition of WFRP...

I could be wrong. After all it's not like WHFB gradually got more gonzo over time.

Oh, wait...

History has a funny way of repeating itself, and WFRP is not immune.
 

CRKrueger

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All the gonzo shit is in the Age of Sigmar RPG. What can you play in the Old World, Orc maybe? Hell, some people are still pissed at the Gnome from 1e.

I could see Vampires. Mummies, various Chaos tribes (Norsemen, Hung, Korean. Etc), Orc.

D&D, Ladybird said, was a general ruleset for several specific settings. As a result, things they do don't map well to certain settings. WFRP is a specific ruleset for one specific setting. They're far less likely to go gonzo violating setting integrity to sell splats. They can go the next 5 years easy just with adventures, careers, and setting books.

If their planning goes along the lines of "Let's do everything 5e did" then the line is screwed. I don't see much evidence of that yet.
 

Ladybird

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And I think that lore change was a mistake. I prefer the original 1e writeup.
Okay. Cool. Play 1e! It still exists, it's more easily available than ever, it's awesome (And actually, it's my favourite edition too).
They always say that.

That You can just ignore it...

The onus will always be placed on those fans who like a more curated setting.

Always.

We have seen this phenomenon before in other games.

Tieflings, Dragonborn, Drow, Genasi, all the now standard menagerie of PC races started out in supplements. (With the exception of the half-orc.)

Why does the current inclusion of Ogres in 4e WFRP matter? Because it is a foot in the door in classic half-orc fashion. (Introduced as a PC race in the AD&D1e PHB - and yes, it was a mistake.)

For now you can say: "But Ogres have all these restrictions - and are not for every campaign..."

In AD&D1e Half-Orcs had serious level restrictions so they were not suitable for all classes or campaigns. And they are supposed to be able to pass as human.

So the Half-Orc went from a heavily restricted PC option, that was supposed to be able to pass as human... Now it is just a normal PC race, and one look at the Half-Orc art for 5e D&D tells you all you need to know about how far they have drifted from AD&D's 'pass as human'...

So while maybe not with 4e WFRP, but if monster races as PC's get no pushback because: "rare", "easy to ignore", and "in previous edition supplements they had rules for..." - they will appear as standard PC options in subsequent editions. 5e to 6e at the latest.

Of course many will think I'm entirely delusional. "It hasn't happened yet..."

WFRP has actually benefitted by having the rights bounce around as much as it has because every new edition has basically been a reboot.

But just wait until a company is able to publish more than one edition of WFRP...

I could be wrong. After all it's not like WHFB gradually got more gonzo over time.

Oh, wait...

History has a funny way of repeating itself, and WFRP is not immune.
There are a bunch of issues bundles up here.

First, how else can a company publish new races without saying something like "you can just ignore it"? That's just fact; it's always up to people at a given table to decide what they want to use in their own games. A games company isn't going to publish a supplement and say "you shouldn't use this", because that would be silly... and they're not going to stop publishing supplements at all, because they need to keep selling books to make money, and you can only sell so many corebooks.

Secondly, things from supplements make it into later edition corebooks because players liked them; something about them resonated, they became popular. Sometimes it's stuff, sometimes it's because they were included as an attempt to see how the public reacted, but essentially it's "you liked this enough, so we'll add it for you". The entire history of D&D (And by extension, many other games) is this gradual expansion and refinement over time; if we're going to limit games to only things that were core in their first corebook, there are a lot of games that we'll need to vastly trim down.

Thirdly, games just change and develop over time. If your particular favourite version is the old one, okay, good; play that, but you aren't the only customer and sometimes publishers will make choices you don't like. It sucks, but it's just the way things are really. In today's gaming golden age, there's a good chance your favourite version is actively and easily available, even if not currently supported by new additional material. And in addition, why would games companies even want to just publish the same content in the same way over and over again, when it's already out there?
 

Ladybird

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All the gonzo shit is in the Age of Sigmar RPG. What can you play in the Old World, Orc maybe? Hell, some people are still pissed at the Gnome from 1e.

I could see Vampires. Mummies, various Chaos tribes (Norsemen, Hung, Korean. Etc), Orc.

D&D, Ladybird said, was a general ruleset for several specific settings. As a result, things they do don't map well to certain settings. WFRP is a specific ruleset for one specific setting. They're far less likely to go gonzo violating setting integrity to sell splats. They can go the next 5 years easy just with adventures, careers, and setting books.

If their planning goes along the lines of "Let's do everything 5e did" then the line is screwed. I don't see much evidence of that yet.
I think Orcs are probably the Warhammer race that could most do with an expansion book of their own, because they've effectively ended up with a combination of memetic hand-me-downs from 40k Orks and "everyone knows what Orcs are" from generic fantasy rather than developing in their own way; even Goblins have some distinctive Warhammerness to them.

A Tomb Kings book, with rules for playing Mummies, Liches, and their servants, could be a lot of fun too. Undead courtly intrigue, sword-and-sandals epic quests, and age-old hubris all feel to me like the elements of a great campaign set-up.

Probably the only factions that I couldn't see working as PC's are Lizardmen and Beastmen, because they're both so alien in their motivations (Beastmen just want to break things and fuck, Lizardmen Have A Plan but they're not sharing) that I don't think there's an easy way in to their mindset or a decent campaign framework for them.

But, as you've pointed out; each of these should be their own things. Playing an Orc in a standard campaign makes no sense and I don't see why anyone would want to do it. Similarly an adventuring party with Orcs, Skaven, and Mummies makes no sense, even if adventuring parties of Orcs, Skaven or Mummies would be fine. D&D works as a gigantic melting pot of stuff, but WFRP needs a much steadier hand (And in fairness, they seem to have it).
 

Simlasa

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Probably the only factions that I couldn't see working as PC's are Lizardmen and Beastmen, because they're both so alien in their motivations (Beastmen just want to break things and fuck, Lizardmen Have A Plan but they're not sharing) that I don't think there's an easy way in to their mindset or a decent campaign framework for them.
I don't so much want to play as Slann/Lizardmen as I want (eventually) some sourcebook supporting adventures in Lustria... maybe with the option for liminal lizardmen (tribals who have had contact with the Old Worlder settlers... Norsemen, Estalians, Tileans...), since that potential goes back to the old WFB 'Kremlo the Slann' campaign.
Weird 'lost world' adventures with opportunity for crashed spaceships and the lizardmen's original underground homeworld.
 

Gringnr

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Some guy wrote and posted an "ogres as PCs" pdf on TBO a few years ago, but the link is dead. Odds are it exists on the net somewhere, though.

 

Jaeger

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All the gonzo shit is in the Age of Sigmar RPG.

And that will keep it completely away from WFRP for all time how?

AoS is not as popular as WFRP, and is less likely to attract those that will push for changes.

After all:
Baulderstone said:
I think it's important to remember that one of the main design goals of 4E was to make an edition that worked for all WFRP fans, whether you were a 1E purist or wanted the full gonzo of WFB.

As people who have referenced WHFB books inadvertently highlight - warhammer lore has changed, and always towards the gonzo...


D&D, Ladybird said, was a general ruleset for several specific settings. As a result, things they do don't map well to certain settings. WFRP is a specific ruleset for one specific setting. They're far less likely to go gonzo violating setting integrity to sell splats.

And then she says:
Thirdly, games just change and develop over time.

And I agree with this.

WFRP just has a more specific beginning reference point than D&D. Which will make it take longer to get from A to B. That's all.

WFRP is not immune.


First, how else can a company publish new races without saying something like "you can just ignore it"?

I disagree with, and completely reject the need for new player races in WFRP entirely.

The inclusion of "you can just ignore it" is there to shut down dissent.

C7 is deliberately changing the lore on Ogres for the third time.

I won't ignore it because I care.

WHFB history has shown that lore changes always move towards the gonzo.

I don't want WFRP to move towards the gonzo.

Anyone that believes WFRP is somehow immune to this effect is kidding themselves.

When CRKruger note that: "some people are still pissed at the Gnome from 1e." I say that they were right to be so. And they are still mad because it was a battle that they know they lost.

What need was there for Gnomes in addition to halflings? None. Yet it was added in the name of options that "you could just ignore". And now they are back in 4e. Naturally you can "just ignore them" if you want...


Secondly, things from supplements make it into later edition corebooks because players liked them

Rather because a subset of vocal players like them. Or a designer who liked them put them in because he could.

And the others are usually not vocal enough in their push back because it is seen as harshing on someone else's buzz.

"Why are they gatekeeping my fun?" "...Why don't they just shut up and ignore it if they don't want it in their games?"

See, easy. Dissent quelled.

The rot starts early.


I don't see much evidence of that yet.

Of course not, WFRP has just undergone its 4th hard re-boot.


Okay. Cool. Play 1e! It still exists,

Ahh, the classic pat on the head.

I was totally unaware of 1e's continual existence even as I referenced my copy when writing responses to this thread.

How kind of you to point that out.


D&D works as a gigantic melting pot of stuff, but WFRP needs a much steadier hand (And in fairness, they seem to have it).

Actually WFRP has benefitted from the complete lack of a steady hand.

This is the 4th hard reboot in a row. So when you start from scratch 4 times with 4 different licensees making the game; you are much less likely to get the consistent "options creep" other game lines get with successive editions.

Give C7 a few successive WFRP editions when they can no longer repackage the TEW campaign again.

I didn't say that it would happen right away. It will take time.

I'm just pointing out the canary in the coal mine.
 
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Séadna

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WHFB history has shown that lore changes always move towards the gonzo.

I don't want WFRP to move towards the gonzo.

Anyone that believes WFRP is somehow immune to this effect is kidding themselves.

When CRKruger note that: "some people are still pissed at the Gnome from 1e." I say that they were right to be so. And they are still mad because it was a battle that they know they lost.

What need was there for Gnomes in addition to halflings? None. Yet it was added in the name of options that "you could just ignore". And now they are back in 4e. Naturally you can "just ignore them" if you want...
You know the fact that there were going to be extra races is stated up front directly in the 1E core. Not only that but the 1E core says that experienced players could try to be a race outside the basic four:

Screenshot 2021-11-30 at 10-47-15 wfrp_1steditionrulebook pdf.png

This relates to something you said to Ladybird Ladybird earlier:
Ogres are in the Bestiary in WFRP 1e. Elves are in the PC section.
Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Halflings are also in the Bestiary.

In fact not only that it directly says in char gen (right after the bit I quoted above) to see the Bestiary for more details on them:

Screenshot 2021-11-30 at 10-51-40 wfrp_1steditionrulebook pdf.png

So I think it's pretty clear here what's being said. All races get descriptions in the Bestiary, at the time of publication only the four most common races have the official details in the Player section to make PCs right now, but there's enough detail in the Bestiary that experienced players can go ahead and make a PC from any of the other races and this will be officially supported in coming supplements such as the Ogre and Troll one that was planned that I linked to above.

The "non-gonzo" WFRP you're talking about never existed as the designers' actual intention. From the beginning they planned for you to be able to play as more than the four main races.

That's ignoring the more general issue that I don't see what makes dwarves and halflings serious characters, but gnomes are "gonzo".
 

Jaeger

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You know the fact that there were going to be extra races is stated up front directly in the 1E core. Not only that but the 1E core says that experienced players could try to be a race outside the basic four:

And the game has benefitted from developers largely being unable to do so. (Due to various circumstances)

The lack of a PC race menagerie in WFRP is a point in its favor that helps differentiate it from other fantasy RPG's.


The "non-gonzo" WFRP you're talking about never existed as the designers' actual intention. From the beginning they planned for you to be able to play as more than the four main races.

But in practice; it didn't happen.

The 'unsteady hand' of multiple full line reboots has actually helped the game to not fall victim to the designers misguided intent.

WFRP became "non-gonzo" (i.e. not as PC Race crazy as D&D) by default.

Which set the tone for the game amongst the player base for years to come.

So Far.

Just because they had x intention, or said "experienced players" could... That doesn't make them good ideas.

And while yes, "they planned": it never came to fruition.

Over time, with the successive reboots of the game; the norm for WFRP play has been just the standard four races.


In my opinion - It has been good for the WFRP brand that the full realization of their initial intentions has not come to fruition.

The curated nature of WFRP setting, and limited Playable PC races have been the main points of differentiation from other fantasy RPGs.

And I think that undermining one of those points will invariably lead to the undermining of the other - as we can already see with the change in lore to accommodate Ogres as a PC race.


That's ignoring the more general issue that I don't see what makes dwarves and halflings serious characters, but gnomes are "gonzo".

IMHO; you are asking the wrong question.

Why was there an kerfuffle amongst the fanbase not wanting gnomes put back in the game back in the day?

If the intent of 1e was that: "there were going to be extra races..." Why was there such pushback?

Using my faded memory the reasons was largely this:

The norm of play in WFRP has been the four basic races. With the WFRP setting being very human centric, even Elves and Dwarves were not as common for PCs and humans. Gnomes don't really add anything to WFRP. They have no niche that halflings or dwarves can't also fill. And humanoid races in WFRP are already the exception, rather than the norm, so adding gnomes would just make WFRP more D&D like.

IMHO people don't generally turn to WFRP just to get the same things that they do with D&D.


So now it seems we are in a place where C7 has given their blessing to fulfill "the designers' original intention"...

I think that will be bad for the WFRP brand in the future. We have seen the effect of adding lots of playable races to other fantasy games, and its inevitable knock on effects to the lore and tone of the game.

Obviously many here think that WFRP will some how be immune to these effects.

I disagree.
 

Séadna

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Okay so you think that Cubicle 7 have made the missteps of doing what the 1E designers were going to do (and partially did with the gnome race) and what the 2E and 3E designers partially did as well and only the hard rebooting has saved the line from every designer it has ever had.

You also think they've made the mistake of using The Enemy Within to draw in new people, even though it's exactly what drew many people to the setting in the past. It also seems to be one of the highest selling products in the 4E line.

The curated nature of WFRP setting
But isn't your point that it essentially has been saved by not being curated. That nobody has had a chance to implement their intended direction for the game. That the perfect WFRP is not the result of any designer but the accidental by-product of rebooting?

Obviously many here think that WFRP will some how be immune to these effects.
There are tons of games that have added more playable character types and races over the years without imploding into gonzo. Traveller added playable Droyne and Hivers and remains the same game. Runequest has given out details of how to play a wide variety of Glorantha's creatures without becoming D&D or destroying its own lore and tone. Wraith the Oblivion added an entirely new class of entities beyond the typical dead that was so popular they were given a new chapter in the 20th anniversary edition.

Even looking at WFRP the 4E Gnome write up seems perfectly in tone for the game. They fill a Germanic folkloric niche to me. Can you actually point to something concrete in that write up that is contrary to WFRP's tone? Because right now the argument just seems to be:
"D&D got new races, since WFRP now has a new race can you 'prove' it won't end up gonzo like D&D?"

I don't have to think WFRP is "immune" to anything since it's not some sort of inevitable outcome of adding new PC races.
 
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Jaeger

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You also think they've made the mistake of using The Enemy Within to draw in new people, even though it's exactly what drew many people to the setting in the past. It also seems to be one of the highest selling products in the 4E line.

Nope.

I said TEW should not be the only way that new players can "get" the old world.

When other posters earlier said that the TEW was the only real way to "get" the old world.


Okay so you think that Cubicle 7 have made the missteps of doing what the 1E designers were going to do (and partially did with the gnome race) and what the 2E and 3E designers partially did as well and only the hard rebooting has saved the line from every designer it has ever had.

Yes. WFRP has been most fortunate.


But isn't your point that it essentially has been saved by not being curated. That nobody has had a chance to implement their intended direction for the game. That the perfect WFRP is not the result of any designer but the accidental by-product of rebooting?

WFRP was curated setting out of the gate.

It has been basically kept in a kind of stasis buy different IP licensees doing three successive hard reboots of the game.

Which has saved the old world of WFRP from things like metaplot, and spell plagues...



There are tons of games that have added more playable character types and races over the years without imploding into gonzo. Traveller added playable Droyne and Hivers and remains the same game. Runequest has given out details of how to play a wide variety of Glorantha's creatures without becoming D&D or destroying its own lore and tone. Wraith the Oblivion added an entirely new class of entities beyond the typical dead that was so popular they were given a new chapter in the 20th anniversary edition.

As to 'monster' PC races in:

Runequest - Standard default has always been human. Why hasn't this changed? Well... RQ has always had a bit of a learning curve (to say the least) both in mechanics and in lore from every other fantasy game. Which has prevented widespread interest or adoption of alternate PC races in the game. Even now alternate PC races are to be found as literal side bars in the bestiary for RQG.

Wraith - A World of darkness game? Dude, you are supposed to be monsters. WoD was a PC menagerie gonzo supernatural setting from the get go.

Traveller - Complete apples to oranges comparison. But for kicks: Has the two most popular alien races: Aslan and Vagyr in the core book, (which were not options in the original game.) and directs you to the traveller companion to get your space menagerie on.

So PC 'non-human as race' creep has happened. But the Traveller Lore and setting benefits from literally being in space with thousands of worlds. So each race can be sequestered to a degree. And the setting has always been deliberately left a bit vague.

Where as the default for WFRP play is the old world that lacks the vagueness and vastness of a galaxy. New PC races will be added primarily as options for play in the old world. As we have already seen. And lore will be modified and changed to make this happen. As we have already seen.



Even looking at WFRP the 4E Gnome write up seems perfectly in tone for the game. They fill a Germanic folkloric niche to me. Can you actually point to something concrete in that write up that is contrary to WFRP's tone? Because right now the argument just seems to be:"D&D got new races, since WFRP now has a new race can you 'prove' it won't end up gonzo like D&D?"

WFRP was written as a reaction to D&D. (and to sell minis).

You obviously feel that complaints about Ogres and Gnomes as PC races are chicken little hot air.

Hey "it matches the tone", so nothing to see here.

You say:

I don't have to think WFRP is "immune" to anything since it's not some sort of inevitable outcome of adding new PC races.

Yet on this very thread several posters have already indicated that they wouldn't mind at all for playable PC races to be expanded in WFRP beyond just Ogres and Gnomes.

History has shown where this has lead in games that have used similar tropes.

You disagree, and that is your privilege.
 

Trippy

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WFRP was written as a reaction to D&D. (and to sell minis).
Actually, WFRP was originally written as a supplement to WFB, but it expanded out to being its own thing before they chose to publish it as a game.
 

Black Leaf

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In terms of the timeline of the development of ogres in WFB, just because it's likely relevant to WFRP.

WFB 1 - Ogres are smaller, less stupid cousins of trolls who like trolls sometimes have chaotic features. That's essentially it. Background information is sparse at this point.

WFB 2 is where the idea of them being mutated humans comes in.

Ogres are gross, ugly humanoids who love to fight and kill.

However, they don't mind much who they kill, and will hire their services out to the highest bidder, be he Man or Goblin. They are not an overly .cruel race, but they are brutal and have little respect for the weak or helpless. Their origin is uncertain, they may be humans tainted by living too close to the Incursions of Chaos for too long. Ogres were once common in Norsca and even the northern part of the Old World, but now they are a rare and diminishing race. They speak their own snorting, growling language, although many can get by in Norse.

That's very close to WFRP 1st edition, although the RPG a) removes the uncertainty and b) makes clear that it was in the "unfathomably distant past", not recent mutation.

WFB 2 also removes stupidity and any possibility of chaotic mutations.

Ravening Hordes only has them as Mercenaries for the following armies.

Orc & Goblins and the Empire. Chaos is also allowed Ogre units, but they are specified to be Chaos Ogres, which one would assume is the ogre equivalent of chaos dwarves etc.

WFB 3 mentions them possibly being distant descendants of humans, but doesn't mention Chaos. (Although arguably it can be implied by where Ogres are from). Other interesting little tidbits. Ogres can be of any alignment now although most are Neutral. So good Ogres are a thing! And they can become wizards, but only to the basic level.

The Armies book extends who they can act as Mercenaries for.

Dark Elves, The Empire, Bretonnians, Chaos, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs

So by this point they'll fight for almost anyone. (And most of the army lists they won't fight for don't hire mercenaries and ogre allies aren't a thing)

My interest in WFB drops off sharply after 3e (my favourite) so I can't speak with any depth about those.

Obviously, every group and GM will make the Old World their own and "consistent Warhammer canon" is a contradiction in terms.

But the canon we do have says:

Ogres are probably mutated humans, possibly by chaos.

They aren't however seen as mutants and attacked accordingly. They aren't trusted, but they have a long history of working as human mercenaries, so the link with the Empire is well established.

That said, some digging suggests that Imperial Ogres didn't come in until 4e so I think that may mean they were a fan creation that ascended to canon rather than vice versa? So if you're playing "old school" WFRP it's arguable whether they're a thing.

Generally, while I agree they're a "gonzo race", Ogres are monsters but they're monsters who are neutral towards humanity. That's what differentiates them from the other monsters races like Orcs & Goblins or Skaven.

Do people want me to do a brief history of the development of WFRP gnomes or is that enough? :p
 

Simlasa

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Even the hyper-xenophobic Empire in 40K let ogres (ogryn) into the Imperial Guard... and WFB had ogre figures in Empire garb going wayback. So it's hard to frame letting Players use them as PCs as some sort of transgressive move against the lore.
 

TJS

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I'll admit I don't care where Ogres fit canonically. I prefer Warhammer to be more humancentric, not less.

Don't add ogres. Take elves out!
 
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