Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - 2e vs 4e

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The Butcher said:
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Nah, China is home of the largest recast market.
 
Séadna said:
If anybody wants it, here's a discussion of the original 1E gnome article "Out of the Garden" with scans:
realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com

WFRP'd: Out of the Garden or Roleplaying Gnomes

Writing about Little Ron, my unfortunate Gnome crossbowman, recently reminded me of the part the more unusual races once played in Warha...
realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com
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My first WFRP1e PC was a gnome. I created him the month that article came out and played through the Oldenhaller Contract. He lost his hand in the fight with the gang on the street and had it replaced with a fishing gaff. Good times :grin:
 
TristramEvans said:
Nah, China is home of the largest recast market.
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I’ve been fascinated both by the number of miniature painters advertising from China, as well as their prices, in the last two years. I’ve been quoted prices from Europe and the US for a display-quality army on what they charge for a squad of five figures.
 
Ralph Dula said:
I’ve been fascinated both by the number of miniature painters advertising from China, as well as their prices, in the last two years. I’ve been quoted prices from Europe and the US for a display-quality army on what they charge for a squad of five figures.
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Are you familiar with those Wish memes?
 
Having got a bit more familiar with 4e, my conclusion is this.

There's nothing *wrong* with it (mostly) but it still feels clunky.

If I run it's likely to be a mishmash.

Setting somewhere between 1e and 2e (a bit less loose than the original, but no Storm of Chaos). Not quite sure which one of those to go with on magick though; 2e is a lot more developed on one hand, but I like Druids and Elementalists on the other.

Mostly 2e rules.

Some of the best bits taken from 4e - the "random generation for bonus exp or customisation" approach to character gen, the price lists, economy etc

Backconvert the 4e supplements/adventures which I don't think should be that difficult.
 
Black Leaf said:
Having got a bit more familiar with 4e, my conclusion is this.

There's nothing *wrong* with it (mostly) but it still feels clunky.

If I run it's likely to be a mishmash.

Setting somewhere between 1e and 2e (a bit less loose than the original, but no Storm of Chaos). Not quite sure which one of those to go with on magick though; 2e is a lot more developed on one hand, but I like Druids and Elementalists on the other.

Mostly 2e rules.

Some of the best bits taken from 4e - the "random generation for bonus exp or customisation" approach to character gen, the price lists, economy etc

Backconvert the 4e supplements/adventures which I don't think should be that difficult.
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To be honest, "still clunky" is my only complaint for WFRP rules. If the rules were closer to Maelstrom*, it would have been better for the spirit of the game, I feel:shade:.

*10 stats, up to 6 skills which grant bonuses, 1-3 traits.
 
Black Leaf said:
Having got a bit more familiar with 4e, my conclusion is this.

There's nothing *wrong* with it (mostly) but it still feels clunky.

If I run it's likely to be a mishmash.

Setting somewhere between 1e and 2e (a bit less loose than the original, but no Storm of Chaos). Not quite sure which one of those to go with on magick though; 2e is a lot more developed on one hand, but I like Druids and Elementalists on the other.

Mostly 2e rules.

Some of the best bits taken from 4e - the "random generation for bonus exp or customisation" approach to character gen, the price lists, economy etc

Backconvert the 4e supplements/adventures which I don't think should be that difficult.
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My ideal WFRP would be mostly 2nd edition. With some ideas from Zweihänder e.g. dedicated careers for each priesthood and/or college of magic.
 
The Butcher said:
My ideal WFRP would be mostly 2nd edition. With some ideas from Zweihänder e.g. dedicated careers for each priesthood and/or college of magic.
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I've had several people tell me that their ideal WFRP 4e would be a blend of actual 4e and Zweihaner lol.
 
Gringnr said:
I've had several people tell me that their ideal WFRP 4e would be a blend of actual 4e and Zweihaner lol.
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I mostly find Zweihander too crunchy for my tastes, made worse by how overwritten it is. It's just too hard to find rules quickly.

(That and I prefer silly puns over modern meme humour, but that one's much easier to fix).
 
Black Leaf said:
I mostly find Zweihander too crunchy for my tastes, made worse by how overwritten it is. It's just too hard to find rules quickly.

(That and I prefer silly puns over modern meme humour, but that one's much easier to fix).
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I agree on both counts. It’s an overwritten mess. Nevertheless, I like some of their innovations, in principle when not in practice.
 
One thing I really like in 4e is that you now get a +20 bonus to use your skill in average conditions and +0 if it's challenging (rather than the previous 0/-10). That's how it should be with career skills.

I suspect most Warhammer GMs have been house ruling something similar already, but it's still good to see that made official.
 
The Butcher said:
I agree on both counts. It’s an overwritten mess. Nevertheless, I like some of their innovations, in principle when not in practice.
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Yeah, it definitely needed a better editor. I'd like to try WFRP 4e, I ran Zweihander for a time and found it to be very smooth in play.
 
I feel like WFRP is now in the same space as BRP or Traveller, where most experienced GMs are running their own custom blend of editions and house rules. I use 4E as my base. I find its core mechanic gives the most interesting results at the table. In addition to the +20 rule that A Fiery Flying Roll Black Leaf brought up, using opposed rolls in combat works much better. Fights move much faster but still feel gritty. The career system in 4E is an improvement too, as that was always a problem in 1E.

I still have more tinkering to do before I get to exactly what I want, but it is in reach.
 
Baulderstone said:
I feel like WFRP is now in the same space as BRP or Traveller, where most experienced GMs are running their own custom blend of editions and house rules. I use 4E as my base. I find its core mechanic gives the most interesting results at the table. In addition to the +20 rule that A Fiery Flying Roll Black Leaf brought up, using opposed rolls in combat works much better. Fights move much faster but still feel gritty. The career system in 4E is an improvement too, as that was always a problem in 1E.

I still have more tinkering to do before I get to exactly what I want, but it is in reach.
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I'd like to see an English translation of Brygandine.
 
Dropbear said:
I finally picked up a copy of WFRP4E from Cubicle7. Despite having heard a lot of negative things about Advantage and being fiddly, I am liking it so far. After my disappointment with 3E, I waited a while before I jumped in. Still have all the 1E & 2E stuff too.
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The number one thing to keep i mind with Advantage is that you need to use the optional Fast SL rule. Aside from that, I haven't found it to be that big an issue in actual play. For one thing, combat in this edition tend to take a lot fewer rounds, as combat roll are opposed rather trying to roll under a WS that is probably below 50%. I've never seen a fight last long enough for anyone to get massive Advantage.

The fiddly aspect I want to change most is the Fate/Fortune/Resilience/Resolve points. I want to at least merge Resilience and Resolve into one pool.

Dropbear said:
Agreed! I kinda like how they changed up careers and included standards of living and downtime. Although to be fair, the adventurers in my games don’t tend to receive a lot of downtime. It’s a trend in games that I have found to be counter productive to keeping things moving, personally. I usually only use it when I take a break from running one game to try out another, and don’t invest a whole lot of RP time on.
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Acmegamer said:
Agreed, I find the whole trend to have these down time activities fascinating but I'm not sure players are embracing it, yet. I've done something similar off and on over the decades but never really gave it a standardized name. Warhammer, Runequest and Savage Worlds to name three all have some sort of down time or in between adventurers mechanics now.

It's fascinating and I think it's a good idea because it gives GMs and players more fuel to think outside the box on what they can do with an rpg. Frequently I find myself kinda gobsmacked at the how some people react to ideas that aren't in the written in an rpgs rules mechanics. It feels like the newer generations of gamers are more narrowly rigid in how they approach and play an rpg.

Where as before or in the early days as long as we explained clearly what the mechanic did and were consistent in how we applied it, the sky was the limit. Didn't mean that we didn't come up with bad ideas or cumbersome ideas, but at least we most of us back then didn't freak out when someone at their game dropped a rule/mechanic/idea that we'd never heard of or that wasn't in the rulebooks. lol.
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I haven't gotten into using the downtime mechanics yet, but I think they are a good thing in WFRP. It is common in WFRP to have a character who needs to spend a few weeks training, such as when a wizard levels up. Letting the other players take some downtime activities would be a good way to let them get use out of the time.

Most WFRP games have the characters becoming wandering parties, but I'd like to run a game where the characters are mainly in one place and have day jobs. I can see the downtime rules being a lot more useful for a campaign like that.
 
I think I ended up with about 6 advantage in one fight.
 
Yeah, I think my plan is to use 2e for combat mainly, which I'm less keen on in 4e (especially advantage).

Other observations on houserules.

Use 2e racial stats because 4e elves are ridiculous.

With starting equipment I'd go halfway between 2e and 4e and have characters start with 1d6 GC. I understand what 4e is trying to achieve and I generally agree with it, but characters who can't afford a night at the inn let alone a sword dictates the early stages of the campaign too much. (And means you can't start Enemy Within as your first campaign by RAW).

People seem divided on the new career system. I really like it; it makes sense that characters can advance in their own careers rather than having to career hop to advance.

I'm looking at conversion at the moment.

Skills are largely straightforward. Because they're descriptive they don't need any real conversion, although I'd choose one of the two sets for the master list. I also think I'd allow mastery of one skill (as well as the new skills available) for each of the additional career levels. If you're using the old skill rules rather than advances basic skills go back to 2e (half stat to work out chance).

Talents are more complex because some of them make reference to mechanics, especially in 4e. Still doable though with a bit of work.

The main issue and the thing I'm still trying to work out is how to handle stat increases.

It does become more complicated if you're using the Career Compendium rather than the main rulebook, partly because there's conversion charts from 2e to 4e but not vice versa.

I'd use the old magic rules. And make sure any Wizard's Apprentice starts with Read Write and Casting Petty magick rather than having to choose between the two. I think I'd revert Read/Write to being a skill rather than a talent.

Downtime rules are mostly compatible and can be used as is or ignored depending on taste.
 
Baulderstone said:
The career system in 4E is an improvement too, as that was always a problem in 1E.
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I singled this one out because it was one of my turn-offs, in that I feel it no longer encouraged the career-switching antics of WFRP1 and 2. It felt more like a regular “class” system to me, with each career having four “levels” or tiers.

And I see how that lines up better with extant Warhammer Fantasy canon, e.g. Witch Hunters being an extensive and hierarchical order of inquisitors instead of a free-roaming, deputized, um, witch hunter, but I have the nagging suspicion that something gets lost there.

How’d it pan out in actual play for you?
 
Brock Savage said:
This is funny because it's true. I ordered some recasts from China and Russia and they were garbage. Also everything I ordered from Wish has been garbage or really cheap quality.
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It’s funny: A few weeks ago I got a Facebook ad for a toy company I never heard of. Turns out they have a lot of (expensive) stuff, and not counting a toy I bought about two years ago I haven’t bought a toy for myself in many years.



I really want to buy something from them, but they’re a Chinese company and they seem to do a lot of stuff I don’t know if they’re actually licensed for. After the talk of Wish and the like in this thread I can’t bring myself to buy from them.
 
CRKrueger said:
So basically Wish is where all those ridiculously misnamed action figures you guys post gets sold?
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Wish is one of those companies that everyone you know has bought from exactly ONCE. You get burned on one order then never again. I ordered some dice for $1.50 that turned out to be tiny and shitty. My wife ordered all kinds of art stuff like pencils and shit. She was soo excited to place the order and then crushed when it arrived.
 
CRKrueger said:
So basically Wish is where all those ridiculously misnamed action figures you guys post gets sold?
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Anything I’ve posted has been from associates in retail shops in HK.
 
Brock Savage said:
This is funny because it's true. I ordered some recasts from China and Russia and they were garbage. Also everything I ordered from Wish has been garbage or really cheap quality.
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I ordered some Ratling Snipers on Ebay, they were just like they were supposed to be, but they were resin, and not Finecast resin. I thought “Aren’t these supposed to be metal?” then it hit me, someone sold me recasts. It was a good price though and the casts were nice.

I’ve been tempted to try a couple of the big Russian recasters that sell the minis that would cost you a kidney these days for the real thing.

Man, GW could scan and Print on demand all their old minis. I know I’d get a crapload of Chaos Warriors, Wardancers, plus a bunch of those random Mercenary figs, like Tilean Crossbowmen, Bretonnian Serfs, etc. If random people on the Internet are doing it, I think GW probably could…:trigger:
 
CRKrueger said:
Man, GW could scan and Print on demand all their old minis. I know I’d get a crapload of Chaos Warriors, Wardancers, plus a bunch of those random Mercenary figs, like Tilean Crossbowmen, Bretonnian Serfs, etc. If random people on the Internet are doing it, I think GW probably could…:trigger:
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Then they’d have to change their video they make potential hires watch on how they have the most perfect system of casting miniatures on Earth.

Or maybe that was something only folks who interviewed at the US corporate office had to watch, I don’t know.
 
CRKrueger said:
I ordered some Ratling Snipers on Ebay, they were just like they were supposed to be, but they were resin, and not Finecast resin. I thought “Aren’t these supposed to be metal?” then it hit me, someone sold me recasts. It was a good price though and the casts were nice.

I’ve been tempted to try a couple of the big Russian recasters that sell the minis that would cost you a kidney these days for the real thing.

Man, GW could scan and Print on demand all their old minis. I know I’d get a crapload of Chaos Warriors, Wardancers, plus a bunch of those random Mercenary figs, like Tilean Crossbowmen, Bretonnian Serfs, etc. If random people on the Internet are doing it, I think GW probably could…:trigger:
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That certainly makes more business sense than leaving money on the table and waiting for Russia to start enforcing IP law.
 
Baulderstone Baulderstone

As the person on here that seems to have the most on the table experience of 4e, how did you handle starting money? As written, it seems to me too low to do anything at all, especially if you combine it with the "lose all money in between adventures" rule.
 
The Butcher said:
I singled this one out because it was one of my turn-offs, in that I feel it no longer encouraged the career-switching antics of WFRP1 and 2. It felt more like a regular “class” system to me, with each career having four “levels” or tiers.

And I see how that lines up better with extant Warhammer Fantasy canon, e.g. Witch Hunters being an extensive and hierarchical order of inquisitors instead of a free-roaming, deputized, um, witch hunter, but I have the nagging suspicion that something gets lost there.

How’d it pan out in actual play for you?
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That's a valid observation, but I think it's a problem with the book layout, not the actual mechanics. The actual rules strongly encourage career jumping, even talking about ways you can jump immediately to higher tiers in other career based on what you have already accomplished.

The problem comes from each level of a career being listed in order on the same page, like a clear path you are supposed to follow. I'd break up each career into four entries, then alphabetize them by the name of the level. I'd also give each entry a few career exits, with the default one being listed first.

Of course, rewriting the rulebook is still a work in progress (at best). My current solution is to follow the example of The Enemy Within campaign, which regularly throws NPCs that can act as trainers at the PCs.

Black Leaf said:
Baulderstone Baulderstone

As the person on here that seems to have the most on the table experience of 4e, how did you handle starting money? As written, it seems to me too low to do anything at all, especially if you combine it with the "lose all money in between adventures" rule.
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I've used the standard starting money each of the four times I've run it. They have all been experienced, imaginative groups, so coming up with money is part of the fun. My nephews had a burglary planned within 30 minutes of the campaign's start. That said, I wouldn't have an issue with more starting money. It would make sense for the town-based campaign I mentioned earlier. As I see it, the default payout is for games where you want players hungry enough to take big risks immediately.

You make a good point that it can be a troublingly low amount of money at the start of TEW, what with coaching fare to pay. I completely overlooked this issue, but it all worked out anyway. Poorer PCs had to rely on richer ones which helped establish the social order. And one PC buddied up to the coachmen, and when the discussion turned to the danger on the roads, he finagled a ride in return for his combat skills.

I'm actually regretting starting my campaign with TEW. I've just dropped my players into the setting, and I've already lit the fuse that is going to blow it all up. If I run it again, I'll probably start a group in Ubersreik and have them adventure there for a little while. At some point, I'll give them a reason to go to Altdorf, and I can start TEW on the road there. They'd likely pass through Bogenhafen on the way there, so I could give them time to know the town ahead of time. Back during 1E, Bogenhafen already felt too developed to only spend a few days there, and it only has more detail now.

As losing all your money between adventures. I haven't touched the downtime rules yet. I suspect that most players will attempt to spend, stash or invest their money during downtime rather than automatically lose it all. When you factor in the rules for spending money to maintain status, the game is obviously trying to keep players looking for money at all times. Previously, I've run brief campaigns, so I haven't gotten a feel for how this works over the long term. Running TEW should give me a better idea of how the economics work.
 
I tend to see the careers as less classes and more career paths you can (but don't have to) follow. Much like the Wizard or Slayer paths in Oldhammer.

Career jumping is pretty mechanically simple anyway.
 
Baulderstone said:
If I run it again, I'll probably start a group in Ubersreik and have them adventure there for a little while. At some point, I'll give them a reason to go to Altdorf, and I can start TEW on the road there. They'd likely pass through Bogenhafen on the way there, so I could give them time to know the town ahead of time
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I took a similar route. Started in Middenheim* and did plenty in that city before they hit the road to Altdorf. Similarly made sure some time was spent in Bogenhafen before TEW kicked off.
I'd also recommend dropping in a Rough Nights, Hard days adventure and some locales from the Archives books such as the Asylum so a wider view of the setting is given.
I did it for the same reason of normalising the setting before lighting the fuse.

*The 4E Middenheim book is very good as a starting location as it has lots of meat for early PCs and brings in Dark Elves, Chaos cults, Imperial secular and religious politics, Beastmen etc as part of plot hooks. So you get a good taste of the Old World.
 
Baulderstone said:
I'm actually regretting starting my campaign with TEW. I've just dropped my players into the setting, and I've already lit the fuse that is going to blow it all up. If I run it again, I'll probably start a group in Ubersreik and have them adventure there for a little while.
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My group is playing right now — and unfortunately I’m sitting this one out, because reasons — and this is what the GM did, and he’s facing the opposite problem: the group is having so much fun sandboxing in Ubersreik that he’s actually hesitant to set TEW in motion.
 
The Butcher said:
My group is playing right now — and unfortunately I’m sitting this one out, because reasons — and this is what the GM did, and he’s facing the opposite problem: the group is having so much fun sandboxing in Ubersreik that he’s actually hesitant to set TEW in motion.
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That strikes me as a good issue to have. :p

I've generally been really impressed with the quality of the supplements. There's been a real effort to make new stuff rather than just reprints of old material. Even TEW has had lots added, when they could have easily just converted it and called it a day.

I think this is why the buzz round Zweihander seems to have mostly died out now, the stuff round Fox aside. Despite claims it was more than an OSR Warhammer clone, it never really achieved that with its own alt setting.. So after 4e came out it was just another version of 2e, but with more difficult stat conversions and without the committment to support material from Cubicle 7.

Which is probably why it's moved onto Flames of Freedom and Blackbirds rather than supporting the original. Which I think is probably the right move commercially, but at that point they're just one RPG in a crowded market. (Albeit one with a much larger marketing budget than most).
 
Baulderstone said:
The fiddly aspect I want to change most is the Fate/Fortune/Resilience/Resolve points. I want to at least merge Resilience and Resolve into one pool.
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When I actually run WFRP 4E, I think I'll ditch Fate and Resilence as separate points, and just keep Fortune Pts and Resolve Pts.

However I will still refer to 'Fate' as the maximum number of Fortune Pts the character can have, and still refer to 'Resilience' as the maximum number of Resolve Pts the character can have.
Fortune Pts and Resolve Pts can be spent as per usual rules, although if a character wants to have additional benefits, then they can reduce their Fortune maximum (Fate) or Resolve maximum (Resilience) by one, as a consequence.

More of a conceptual shift, rather than anything else. In terms of gameplay, there is no change at all; but in terms of tracking points it has reduced it down to two different pts to track, which I think may be best represented by physical tokens.

(Actually you could combine their total value as a single pool of tokens, and just mark off on the sheet if the tokens are used for Fortune or Resolve, according to their values).

Hopefully this may make it a bit less of a chore to track
 
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Gringnr said:
I'd like to see an English translation of Brygandine.
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Gringnr said:
French WFRP-inspired game. Supposedly very streamlined, while still being recognizably descended from WFRP. All of the rolls are player-facing, IIRC (and I may not). Word is, it's been very well received, even by Le Grogs.
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Seems interesting indeed:thumbsup:!
Though you're wrong, the French description on Drivethru is "where the GM almost never rolls the dice". So not all rolls, just most of them?
I guess, I don't own it. Sems right up my alley, but money is tight this month...:shade:

Baulderstone said:
I feel like WFRP is now in the same space as BRP or Traveller, where most experienced GMs are running their own custom blend of editions and house rules.
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I always suspected that's true for most of the established games with multiple editions:devil:!
I also know it's true if I was to run Savage Worlds. And it would probably be true if I run OMNI again:grin:!
 
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