We won! (OGL)

[Burgonet]

well, rich folks just like to give each other prizes I think.

The corporate sector likes self-congratulatory prizes.
Old school business, Mr. Burns style, would see such things as wasteful.

And the Sun as his greatest enemy, of course.

 

[Jetstream]

And the Sun as his greatest enemy, of course.

Are you some kind of... sun collaborator!?

 

[TristramEvans]

Are you some kind of... sun collaborator!?

Domestic Solarists in our midst!

 

[Burgonet]

Who else is going to stand against the Waterfowl Horde?

 

[Burgonet]

So is there any tangible metric for the measure of money spent, and the player bases, for D&D/Hasbro, Paizo and other third-party publishers?
From both a 'before OGL drama' quarter and a 'after OGL' quarter?
While we can kick and scream, and become quite animated, I do often wonder how much tangible (if any) effect the events had on Hasbro/WotC's bottom line.

 

[Jetstream]

Who else is going to stand against the Waterfowl Horde?

Not the hated Daystar!

 

[Bunch]

So is there any tangible metric for the measure of money spent, and the player bases, for D&D/Hasbro, Paizo and other third-party publishers?
From both a 'before OGL drama' quarter and a 'after OGL' quarter?
While we can kick and scream, and become quite animated, I do often wonder how much tangible (if any) effect the events had on Hasbro/WotC's bottom line.

Not sure but I don't think they would be trying so hard to get influencers on board if this was a negligible event.

I mean I bet a bunch of people dropped subs and turned off auto renew. They have to convince them they resub. I'm unclear if the wait between when they quit their subs and when it comes up for renewal will work in WotCs favor or not.

 

[deflagratio]

So is there any tangible metric for the measure of money spent, and the player bases, for D&D/Hasbro, Paizo and other third-party publishers?
From both a 'before OGL drama' quarter and a 'after OGL' quarter?
While we can kick and scream, and become quite animated, I do often wonder how much tangible (if any) effect the events had on Hasbro/WotC's bottom line.

Probably the easiest data to get is Roll20's stats, but that has a major selection bias. Most publishers and retailers don't release their sales data.
I agree that the biggest sign that this has really hurt WoTC is the current influencer marketing campaign. If this wasn't actually hurting their numbers. They would have charged forward with the changes to OGL. If they were only concerned with some bad press that hadn't materialized into measurable losses, they likely wouldn't have gone beyond the virtual interviews with influencers. The fact that they are footing the bill to fly people from around the country to their HQ for a press event really drives home how much damage has been done. Doing events like that has a real impact on productivity. Work shifts from the project goal to stabilizing the current state to make sure the demo is solid. A lot of video game devs have mentioned that prep for E3 would mean progress on the game halted for a quarter while they made sure the demo functioned correctly.

 

[AsenRG]

I see that WotC really insist on alienating whole segments of the gaming populace...

The Dungeons & Dragons film deliberately portrays male characters as weaklings

"We liked that Holga is the bruiser that does the dirty work for Edgin, and he doesn't like to get his hands dirty."

www.gamereactor.eu

 

[Moracai]

I see that WotC really insist on alienating whole segments of the gaming populace...

I'd say the main segments of their audience..

 

[AsenRG]

I'd say the main segments of their audience..

Well, I'm not so sure of that - but a sizeable percentage for sure.

The general reaction I'm seeing in the Bulgarian part of FB is "OK, not gonna watch it then". Just what the WotC needed after their latest debacle!

 

[Chris Brady]

I see that WotC really insist on alienating whole segments of the gaming populace...

The Dungeons & Dragons film deliberately portrays male characters as weaklings

"We liked that Holga is the bruiser that does the dirty work for Edgin, and he doesn't like to get his hands dirty."

www.gamereactor.eu

Not just gamers, but movie watchers. The General Audience like heroic men, especially the women who make up the vast majority of the entertainment dollar.

 

[Nick J]

Not just gamers, but movie watchers. The General Audience like heroic men, especially the women who make up the vast majority of the entertainment dollar.

Within the target demo? I guess it's possible, but the Zoomer/Millenial people I've met that are into fantasy sure don't track with that statement.

 

[TristramEvans]

Hollywood will pursue anything they perceive as a trend until they run it into the ground. This too shall pass.

 

[TJS]

I predict the movie will do well enough that those who wish to will declare it a success but also poorly enough that others will declare it yet another sign of Hollywood decline.

..,And in six months no one will be talking about this movie and it will be forgotten like a fart once the wind has cleared it.

 

[Chris Brady]

I predict the movie will do well enough that those who wish to will declare it a success but not also poorly enough that others will declare it yet another sign of Hollywood decline.

..,And in six months no one will be talking about this movie and it will be forgotten like a fart once the wind has cleared it.

And that's the real tragedy. It'll probably be boring.

 

[Burgonet]

I think in ten years' time, the last thing on the minds of those in the English-speaking world is going to be the Dungeons and Dragons movie.

 

[Necrozius]

I see that WotC really insist on alienating whole segments of the gaming populace...

The Dungeons & Dragons film deliberately portrays male characters as weaklings

"We liked that Holga is the bruiser that does the dirty work for Edgin, and he doesn't like to get his hands dirty."

www.gamereactor.eu

It’s the social media strategy. Deliberately create a buzz mix of both positive and negative reactions and fighting. Either way, someone profits off of all the interest. If there isn’t enough squabbling going on (and free advertising in the form of rage media) then create some (eg: write an article about how all the male characters in the movie are incompetent retards so that people of varying allegiances will begin to fight). Mix in some AI chatbots and paid influencers with a paid incentive to get people riled up and PROFIT.

It is becoming so obvious and cynical that I can’t stop being surprised at how many people are suckered in every second.

 

[Chris Brady]

It’s the social media strategy. Deliberately create a buzz mix of both positive and negative reactions and fighting. Either way, someone profits off of all the interest. If there isn’t enough squabbling going on (and free advertising in the form of rage media) then create some (eg: write an article about how all the male characters in the movie are incompetent retards so that people of varying allegiances will begin to fight). Mix in some AI chatbots and paid influencers with a paid incentive to get people riled up and PROFIT.

It is becoming so obvious and cynical that I can’t stop being surprised at how many people are suckered in every second.

The trailer is very indicative that they were not lying about what they were doing to the male characters.

 

[deflagratio]

The plot of the D&D Movie seems to revolve around an adventuring party in way over their heads and how they solve it. There's going to be a lot of incompetent moments no matter what in that kind of setup within a comedy adventure film.

 

[Andrew J. Luther]

It’s the social media strategy. Deliberately create a buzz mix of both positive and negative reactions and fighting. Either way, someone profits off of all the interest. If there isn’t enough squabbling going on (and free advertising in the form of rage media) then create some (eg: write an article about how all the male characters in the movie are incompetent retards so that people of varying allegiances will begin to fight). Mix in some AI chatbots and paid influencers with a paid incentive to get people riled up and PROFIT.

It is becoming so obvious and cynical that I can’t stop being surprised at how many people are suckered in every second.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Especially since that statement doesn’t square with other stuff that’s been said about the paladin being like a 20th level character who joins up with this mediocre party.

Rege-Jean Page was on Colbert last week and said something along the lines of “in any other movie, my paladin would be the main character, the hero, and yet here he finds himself stuck with these buffoons, which is where the fun happens.”

He’s supposedly that much better than everyone else, but now somehow he’s going to be weak and incompetent? I think they were really just talking about the bard and the wizard (or sorcerer or whatever). But it’ll generate discussion, which is all that matters to them.

 

[Akrasia]

As a "wimpy male" myself, I have no problem at all with this. I don't understand why anyone should be "upset"...

It. is. not. a. big. deal.

 

[Akrasia]

Apparently the movie currently has a 90% "fresh" rating at Rotten Tomatoes:

Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves

A charming thief and a band of unlikely adventurers undertake an epic heist to retrieve a lost relic, but things go dangerously awry when they run afoul of the wrong people. Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves brings the rich world and playful spirit of the legendary roleplaying game to the...

www.rottentomatoes.com

I have to confess that I'm a bit curious now. (I don't feel strongly either way, but I'm not writing it off...)

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

As a "wimpy male" myself, I have no problem at all with this. I don't understand why anyone should be "upset"...

It. is. not. a. big. deal.

I suspect the actual manly masculine men are too busy benchpressing and drinking beer to give a shit.

 

[TJS]

Apparently the movie currently has a 90% "fresh" rating at Rotten Tomatoes:

Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves

A charming thief and a band of unlikely adventurers undertake an epic heist to retrieve a lost relic, but things go dangerously awry when they run afoul of the wrong people. Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves brings the rich world and playful spirit of the legendary roleplaying game to the...

www.rottentomatoes.com

I have to confess that I'm a bit curious now. (I don't feel strongly either way, but I'm not writing it off...)

We've been here before though. I don't trust review ratings that much any more. I'm not sure if its because they're corporate captured, or because they just see so many shit movies, they're calibration is all off. (Probably a bit of both).

What's interesting here is that some of the reviews seems to be positive, but if you read it they seem to be struggling to give clear reasons.

Take this one (4 Stars).

"This is a fantasy made by people who have seen Shrek, so that each time you’re presented with a looming fortress, hand-drawn map or tragic backstory, someone will undermine the moment with a quip, or Lorne Balfe’s score will deliver a witty Lord Of The Rings parody to poke fun at whatever is happening."

Ok sounds original, and not what we've bombarded with from Marvel and derivatives for over a decade.

"But it was never going to be the visuals that distinguished this one: its success all comes down to the plot, the characters and the gags."

So those things will be good then?

On the plot-front, however, it does get occasionally bogged down in side quests while our heroes seek the Noun Of Whatsit to break into the Fortified Location Of Wherever.

Ok, maybe not the plot.

Maybe it does what most Hollywood films fail to do and manages to have a third act that is not a foregone conclusion.

There are no big surprises in the last act.

Oh. Maybe the films emotional arc will be somewhat fresh?

Our heroes — all outsiders, rejects and self-perceived failures — ultimately gain strength, acceptance and friendship in the found family that they build together.

Oh.

I'm cherry picking, but it's hard, reading this ,to see why the reviewer thought it was a 4 star film - basically it come's down to the reviewer says it's funny,

Mostly the message from the reviews so far seems to be "It's a shit film, but it's a good shit film."

I tend to find the reviews at the Roger Ebert site more trustworthy than most and there's less of a positive spin there while basically saying a lot of the same things.

 

[MichaelTee]

I’ll see it when it comes out on RiffTrax.

 

[Necrozius]

As someone who is rather tired of “geek culture comedy”, I’m not likely to see this anyway.

“LOL the Bard rolled a 20, he seduces the dragon. I’m crying here!”

“Ho ho the Half Orc Barbarian lady just put that dude in his place. Yass Queen Slay!!”

“Did the Dragonborn Paladin just make a dad joke to cheer up the Tiefling? He made a dad joke. My heart… #bestThingEver #Feelz”

“This week we’re doing a puppet- musical episode! LOL so random!”

uuuuuuuuugh

 

[Jetstream]

As a "wimpy male" myself, I have no problem at all with this. I don't understand why anyone should be "upset"...

It. is. not. a. big. deal.

The standard societal attitude toward masculinity reeks of insecurity, so this should not be a surprise, mate.

 

[TJS]

As a "wimpy male" myself, I have no problem at all with this. I don't understand why anyone should be "upset"...

It. is. not. a. big. deal.

Not upset, just incredibly weary of all this culture war shit.

(Also the idea that anyone can think this is some kind of interesting or original role reversal at this point rather than itself a tired trope just seems ridiculous.)

See. Everyone's doing it.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

As someone who is rather tired of “geek culture comedy”, I’m not likely to see this anyway.

“LOL the Bard rolled a 20, he seduces the dragon. I’m crying here!”

“Ho ho the Half Orc Barbarian lady just put that dude in his place. Yass Queen Slay!!”

“Did the Dragonborn Paladin just make a dad joke to cheer up the Tiefling? He made a dad joke. My heart… #bestThingEver #Feelz”

“This week we’re doing a puppet- musical episode! LOL so random!”

uuuuuuuuugh

I'm not sure but I think I may be detecting some cynicism here.

I think the problem is they have want to link it up to the game to say this isn't just some rando fantasy thing we just made up to give it some pedigree and please the existing fan base (and get cross selling boost etc)

But they also want - "hey that nerdy game played by people with beards and black t-shirts in basements no nothing to do with that, oh no you don't need to have played at all it's just a cool funny movie with like a dragon and a dungeon in." To bring in the laydeez.

Marvel style action comedy with the emphasis on comedy and a torrent of easter eggs #forthefans is really the only option they have to try to please both sides, so it was never going to be ground breaking. It sounds like it may be good at what it was trying to do though.

 

[Necrozius]

I'm not sure but I think I may be detecting some cynicism here.

I think the problem is they have want to link it up to the game to say this isn't just some rando fantasy thing we just made up to give it some pedigree and please the existing fan base (and get cross selling boost etc)

But they also want - "hey that nerdy game played by people with beards and black t-shirts in basements no nothing to do with that, oh no you don't need to have played at all it's just a cool funny movie with like a dragon and a dungeon in." To bring in the laydeez.

Marvel style action comedy with the emphasis on comedy and a torrent of easter eggs #forthefans is really the only option they have to try to please both sides, so it was never going to be ground breaking. It sounds like it may be good at what it was trying to do though.

Absolutely! This will sell many tickets. I’m just saying that this style doesn’t interest me. Might as well have made a biopic about a famous hockey player. I would gave been just as invested in it.

 

[chuckdee]

The plot of the D&D Movie seems to revolve around an adventuring party in way over their heads and how they solve it. There's going to be a lot of incompetent moments no matter what in that kind of setup within a comedy adventure film.

General Purpose incompetence can be funny. Making one segment incompetent just so the other segment can shine is never funny, no matter who they are.

 

[chuckdee]

Not upset, just incredibly weary of all this culture war shit.

(Also the idea that anyone can think this is some kind of interesting or original role reversal at this point rather than itself a tired trope just seems ridiculous.)

See. Everyone's doing it.

This isn't really the same thing. He isn't supposed to be proficient, so him seeming bumbling is in character. It's a tired trope, but it's a well worn one. The new one is supposedly competent people appearing incompetent to elevate some other person in the cast. A good example that I really hated was Nick Fury in Captain Marvel. It didn't ruin the bad ass that we know, but it tried its damndest to do so.

 

[Necrozius]

It is kind of weird how Hollywood has always been so fixated on having to lower one person to make another person appear more competent.

Can’t just have someone show how great they are independently: it has to be in contrast of someone else looking especially incompetent. And this is usually reinforced with a witty, sometimes mean-spirited quip.

It’s everywhere: maybe it is some facet of competition fetish that’s ingrained into Western Culture?

edit: comedy tends to be primarily this: an endless series of put downs (or exchanges of escalating put downs). No idea why this is, especially in our current society.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

General Purpose incompetence can be funny. Making one segment incompetent just so the other segment can shine is never funny, no matter who they are.

Meh, it's just a variant on the traditional straight man.

I'd also disagree that it can never be funny. It's the core of the Office (especially the UK version), Men Behaving Badly, Abbott and Costello etc etc.

Whether it is done *well* in this particular case is another matter and I suspect not.

edit: comedy tends to be primarily this: an endless series of put downs (or exchanges of escalating put downs). No idea why this is, especially in our current society.

Because while ubercompetent people being ubercompetent can be a lot of fun (James Bond) but they're not very funny most of the time and are hard for the audience to relate with.

The big exception is if you take it into parody and end up with someone like Ace Rimmer.

 

[Necrozius]

Because while ubercompetent people being ubercompetent can be a lot of fun (James Bond) but they're not very funny most of the time and are hard for the audience to relate with.

Ah sorry that’s not what I meant. I meant that you can laugh at incompetent people , or elevate the competence of others, without constant put downs and ridicule. Basically most comedy comes across as “person A says earnest, naïve, self-assured or ignorant thing” and then “person B reacts by saying how stupid, incompetent, valueless or unliked they are”.

That’s not intrinsically bad (knocking down an arrogant asshole is always good) but it becomes almost nasty when the target isn’t necessarily being a jerk.

 

[chuckdee]

Meh, it's just a variant on the traditional straight man.

We'll have to disagree on that. In the cases where you're talking about, I don't view the incompetence being a vehicle to make the other look more competent- it's a detail of the relationship, a variation on the Odd Couple model. Pinky and the Brain for example. If the Pinky was more competent, would it make the Brain look less so or take anything from him? I think not. The Brain stands alone. It just changes the nature of the relationship, and it's even shown in one episode where Pinky becomes uber-competent. The Brain is at first excited- someone on his own level that he can relate to! Then he has self-esteem issues, when Pinky is shown to be possibly smarter- though this is just his perception. The relationship has changed and he struggles with it. Then he's happy to get Pinky back to normal, so he feels better. From the outside, there's no difference in the Brain- it was all his own ego.

In a lot of these cases, from the outside looking in- the smarter person hasn't earned it. In the case with Captain Marvel, we know that Nick is younger. But he's already seen some shit- especially being in the war. But a lot of things he does are just stupid - not straight man stupid- just outright stupid. And it's done to give Carol and opening or to make her seem better. This is just lazy writing.

 

[Bunch]

Funny is subjective. I never enjoyed the IS version of The Office because it's just too over the top for me. Maybe it gets better with time but there is nothing redeeming about the characters your laughing at.

I like it when there is something redeeming about both the straight man and the one doing the joking.

 

[deflagratio]

We'll have to disagree on that. In the cases where you're talking about, I don't view the incompetence being a vehicle to make the other look more competent- it's a detail of the relationship, a variation on the Odd Couple model. Pinky and the Brain for example. If the Pinky was more competent, would it make the Brain look less so or take anything from him? I think not. The Brain stands alone. It just changes the nature of the relationship, and it's even shown in one episode where Pinky becomes uber-competent. The Brain is at first excited- someone on his own level that he can relate to! Then he has self-esteem issues, when Pinky is shown to be possibly smarter- though this is just his perception. The relationship has changed and he struggles with it. Then he's happy to get Pinky back to normal, so he feels better. From the outside, there's no difference in the Brain- it was all his own ego.

In a lot of these cases, from the outside looking in- the smarter person hasn't earned it. In the case with Captain Marvel, we know that Nick is younger. But he's already seen some shit- especially being in the war. But a lot of things he does are just stupid - not straight man stupid- just outright stupid. And it's done to give Carol and opening or to make her seem better. This is just lazy writing.

It's still a variant of the straight man, it's just easier to execute than what you described. It's easy to dumb down a character than it is to make everyone competent and have some people just be more competent than others. The Pinky and the Brain episode you reference was a standout episode because it executed on it so well.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Funny is subjective. I never enjoyed the IS version of The Office because it's just too over the top for me. Maybe it gets better with time but there is nothing redeeming about the characters your laughing at.

I like it when there is something redeeming about both the straight man and the one doing the joking.

I think this is what makes me enjoy Schur sitcoms. For the most part, for all their faults, his main casts all have likeable qualities and aren't actually bad people.