Well...Let's Talk About This

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under_score

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Except my point is that you talk about how CRK is getting dogpiled and apparently Baulderstone is coming in to "run interference" for one side.

I'll just say as someone who has been told by Baulderstone in private that he is tired of my shit, I really don't think he is as biased as you think.
I'd think that responding to your feelings is a full time job, so cut him some slack. But he's also stated his biases in this thread.

Regardless, in terms of counting participants on dogpiles, I don't want to sit around comparing notes of names, but coming in to tell me my perception is wrong by naming the same 5 people I'd already listed is kind of stupid.
 

Paragon

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You could have a second rule - 'Leave your baggage at the door,' or 'What started on The Forge stays on The Forge.' This should be amenable to moderating on a 'we'll know it when we see it' basis.

That's likely how you'd have to do it though; as I've commented regarding "scar tissue" before, often people have no idea where they've picked up their sensitive areas, and often don't even consciously realize they exist.
 

EmperorNorton

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I'd think that responding to your feelings is a full time job, so cut him some slack. But he's also stated his biases in this thread.

Regardless, in terms of counting participants on dogpiles, I don't want to sit around comparing notes of names, but coming in to tell me my perception is wrong by naming the same 5 people I'd already listed is kind of stupid.

It isn't about comparing notes. It is pointing out that dogpiling happens on all sides of most of the hot button issues. You are right that dogpiling is an issue, but if you think that "CRK's side" whatever that happens to be is the only one who has to deal with it, then yes, I'm going to tell you that is an incorrect perception.

And as for Baulderstone. The guy is a standup dude. I think all the moderation here is, even if I have problems with Tristram from time to time.

Also, good on you for sneaking in a personal attack there I guess?
 

hawkeyefan

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I'm still pretty new around here, so I don't have the previous history that many folks here have with each other, and I don't pretend to understand all those dynamics nor everyone's personal preferences. Some are pretty obvious, most aren't and you only learn them through discussion.

So I ask questions. I make statements. I share my opinion. I respond to others'.

And for the most part, that's all been great. I find this place refreshing compared to many other sites I've spent time on. But at times, when I put forth some comment, I wind up getting responses that treat me as some kind of representative of some monolithic group or something. That's a bit odd to me, but I pretty much chalk it up to being new around here when so many folks have long histories together. So a bit odd, but really not a big deal at all.

It's easy for me to kind of treat most folks as unknown entities and so not make assumptions about them based on a few posts because this place is "new" in my head, and so are almost all the people here to me. I would imagine for folks who have been here or at the site prior, they're not in the same headspace as me....they're not engaging with something that is new to them, even if I am as a specific poster.

All that is to say, assuming good faith on anyone's part in a conversation should be the default. I don't think any further rules or guidelines are really necessary, given what seem to be the goals that the mods and admins have in mind, and the general vibe of the Pub.

I've been a mod myself before and I know some of the BS that goes along with that, and I think the feel here largely is due to how the admins and mods handle things. From what I've seen, any issues that have come up seem more about trying to NOT have to enforce rules and behavior. Compared to most places, that's about as refreshing as it gets. I'd hate to see that change. Especially when, if the posters here can in those rare cases just step it up a little....be a little more polite, be a little more thick skinned, be willing to step away.....then the current approach seems to work.

Sorry to go on at length. Just figured I'd share my take as a relatively new person around here.
 

CRKrueger

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I have nothing but respect for Endless and Tristram and what they’ve created here. At the same time, I predicted once Baulderstone was made a mod, my days were numbered. I simply annoy him too much on a personal level. As far as disrespect goes, I haven’t said anything even remotely close to calling him a deeply petty person or whatever he said to me (after being a mod), and other jabs he’s taken. He’s very good at mind reading the intentions and beliefs of those he doesn’t like. Then again, aren’t we all? I notice that while he been hands off, he’s kept the notebook handy cataloguing my sins. I also know he’s supported many of my posts, so we’re not completely at each other’s throats.

Respect, however, isn’t agreement. Tristram and I agree on a lot, and we can butt heads, but it’s all good in the end. I don’t think Endless and I will agree on anything Prequel and Sequel related.

I call out X for politics. Political statement=Bad, right?
You call me out for calling out X for politics(which you coincidentally believe in). Non-political statement=Good, right?
Please tell me I’m not the only one who sees the problem with this.

Everyone pounds the Report button like they’re playing a bullet hell game whenever something pops up they don’t like. What’s the problem? Is it just saying “Hey, that’s political?” that’s the problem instead of reporting it behind the scenes? If that’s it, then just say that. Don’t say “calling something political is political” because that’s what everyone reporting is doing (not to mention that “calling something political is political”, “everything is political”, etc are political statements by their own logic).

Tristram said it upthread - if it’s politics you agree with, it’s not politics, if you disagree, it is. That’s the danger. I kind of assume, just from the sake of gamer demographics, that most people here skew blue, not red, except for the couple of people I know from the site that are more conservative. We also have a lot of non-Americans here, so I don’t think they quite appreciate how crazy the US is getting. I don’t want politics here, but I disagree that pointing out politics is politics, and if you don’t want to become Purple, you have to accept that what to you is Gospel to someone else is a political point.

As for the ignore thing, was it a suggestion, an ask, or a tell? I get different versions each time. If you guys are commanding, you need to make it explicit, and enforceable. If the “Ignore Norton” was a command, the reason I didn’t follow it wasn’t disrespect, it was that I found alien the idea that you would say such a thing. I made it quite clear exactly why I disagreed. You can control what I say here, you don’t get to control what I read here. The idea itself is, frankly, ludicrous. Even if you had the tools to do so, simply logging out would defeat them. (No, this was not an invitation for IT guys to break out all pedantic :grin:)

This segues nicely into the next subject. One poster that disagreed with me, rancorously, began PMing me, and we had some good conversations.

If we had set each other to ignore, such understanding becomes impossible.

One piece of advice he had for me was to “play the game better” and stop giving people ammunition to use against me. People don’t care what you say, they care how you say it. People don’t care for the truth, they care how they feel. You know, the stuff that anyone who wants to succeed in the Sociopathic Corporate environment needs to survive. Of course, having to live and breathe that in work environments everywhere, I have very little patience for it in my hobbies, which is why I decided long ago to stay off social media as much as possible.

But, what he said did shock me a little, because while I could go forum warrior with the best of them, I didn’t always. I wasn’t like Justin or Pseudoephedrine who commenced with a systematic beatdown on the most minor point of disagreement. I mean people you disagree with always dissemble, cover, strawman, goalpostshift, etc. and usually the more they complain is simply an indicator of how weak their argument is or because “You’re Never Wrong on the Internet”. I

I mean you look at one thread I could point to, and my supposed Nemesis Norton, he actually agreed with the point I was making, but there ten pages of flames because the way I said it, some people might find contentious.
But...that poster was right, the truth doesn’t matter, does it?

Look at the Justin debacle. Tristram actually decided to Wade through the debris, and piece together what actually happened, and guess what the truth of it was? Well, then he starts this thread and takes Viktor’s post restating Justin’s point that Tristram himself debunked as something to talk about. Justin also went for the throat on Rob Conley and called all the Moderators and the Pub as a whole misogynist. But the thread, as always lately, is about me.

Well, to me respect is honesty. So let me show you some respect.
  • I think most of the people calling for civility really just don’t want to be inconvenienced.
  • I think the people complaining the loudest are some of those who I disagree with most fundamentally on concepts of Roleplaying and, based on other site interactions, my views on how the Culture War is being waged.
  • I don’t think the above point is a coincidence.
  • I think two things can be true at the same time. I think Baulderstone can be neutral, while at the same time, just waiting for the right time. From other posts, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks his “Last Straw, Now the Gloves Are Off” post is a little too coincidentally timed, and the rationale a little too well constructed. As I said, he may not be modding, but he sure was cataloguing and building evidence, that’s quite clear from his post. His post also has a rationale behind every point that is the most egregious examples of assuming bad faith that I’ve ever seen. You want to know why I do something, ASK ME.
But, honesty has to be a two-way street, so I have to be honest with myself, too.

My thinking may be part of the problem.

When people I completely agree with and have known online for years are asking me “Dude, what the fuck are you doing?” it might be time to reassess.
  • I have no patience anymore.
  • I take, what looking back, is obvious bait. Parts of this post are a perfect example I guess.
  • I go from Zero to Warp Speed, with no throttle.
  • I have no filter.
  • I post without careful thought increasingly frequently. I think this one gets me the most in trouble, as it allows the construction of convenient narratives as to my intent.
Talking about personal shit isn’t fun, I rate it somewhere just above having wisdom teeth removed through my dick.

But, if I can’t get a Medical Transfer to a different position due to my back getting worse, I’m looking at a Medical Termination. Also, my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, which is a whole level of horror past some vascular dementia, which is what we thought it was.

So, I’m probably not in the best mood, and that’s probably affecting a ton of things. So, I might be wrong about Baulderstone, or anyone else, or everyone else. Maybe I’m just seeing everything in a negative light and that’s impacting everything.

Who knows? I’m not sure I do anymore.
 
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EmperorNorton

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But, if I can’t get a Medical Transfer to a different position due to my back getting worse, I’m looking at a Medical Termination. Also, my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, which is a whole level of horror past some vascular dementia, which is what we thought it was.

So, I’m probably not in the best mood, and that’s probably affecting a ton of things. So, I might be wrong about Baulderstone, or anyone else, or everyone else. Maybe I’m just seeing everything in a negative light and that’s impacting everything.

Hopefully mods don't get too annoyed with me reading this and responding specifically to this part. I have chronic back pain issues, and dude, it sucks ass. I know how you feel on that, and I know how it can make people more grumpy than they should be (hell, I know it does the same to me).

Also, sorry to hear about your mom. Alzheimer's is depressing. Hope things go as well as they can with all your situations.
 

chuckdee

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But at times, when I put forth some comment, I wind up getting responses that treat me as some kind of representative of some monolithic group or something. That's a bit odd to me, but I pretty much chalk it up to being new around here when so many folks have long histories together. So a bit odd, but really not a big deal at all.
That's been my experience too (being around about as long as you have actively posting- I guess a little more). I guess I find that a bigger deal.
 

Ronnie Sanford

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Well, this is the tricky thing. Outside of Mod+ threads, we generally step in when things get bad in a thread, but otherwise we only officially have the One Rule. Otherwise, we mostly have free speech here, which kinda means the good and the bad. I don't know if we suddenly moderate anytime an argument gets heated or words exchanged that will suddenly mean we now have "unspoken rules". And that also avoids the opportunity for posters to work things out on their own. We had a situation in a thread just this week, where I was watching it closely as it escalated, and then the posters de-escalated it themselves, and in the end there was no need for moderation. If I'd jumped right in and threadbanned one of the posters from the start, I'm not sure I'd count that as a better outcome. Sometimes the light moderation touch lets people just interact like people, and resolve issues between themselves. I think the more we moderate, the more we'll need to moderate, and the tone of The Pub will gradually shift to something much more oppressive and stuffy. But that does mean, the price for that is sometimes we're going to have people posting in bad faith, or jumping to ad hominem or strawmen.

It's a question kinda related to something we're kinda wrestling with backstage right now insofar as how far we'll let things go with a poster when they are having an affect on the board overall, or even outside perceptions of our forum, until we take the steps we are loathe too - bans or temp bans. There's no perfect answer that I know of. More moderation or less moderation both come with their own inherent consequences, and decisions we make now could affect the board cuture overall in the long-term.
Tristram I know how to solve this. I am going to send you a Magic Eight ball. Just depend on it for the tough decisions!
 

Endless Flight

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Actually CRKrueger CRKrueger, after reading your post and thinking about it, I think we made a mistake by trying to enforce people to put others on ignore. I think it came from the idea that instead of banning either of you guys for a predetermined amount of time. we figured that the ignore button would be the more peaceful and better way. I don’t think it’s better. It’s probably better just to give people a timeout to think things over. So I apologize to you and EmperorNorton EmperorNorton for that.
 

Ronnie Sanford

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As for my own experience: Generally, despite what I believe about "no politics." I think the site and mods enacted it in good faith, and try their best to keep the site as neutral and positive as possible. I think that is the spirit of the rule. I think most poster abide by the spirit of the rule, and that's what makes this a good place to chat about RPGS.

I think Krueger is aggressively and apparently conservative. I think they agressively do what they can to disrupt discussion that is not conservative, or disrupt discussion about products made by openly progressive authors. I've reported their behavior, and they are the only person I have blocked. My view is that "No Politics" as a rule is actually biased towards conservative politics, and Krueger takes advantage to get away gross negativity while abiding by the letter of the rule. I think Krueger regularly run afoul of the spirit of the rule.

Even though I have them blocked, the disruption remains, as I have to scroll through other posters contending with the same behavior.

Anyways, this is a pickle for moderation.
Who is the “they” you are speaking of? I’m a US conservative, am I part of the “they”?
 

Fenris-77

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Actually CRKrueger CRKrueger, after reading your post and thinking about it, I think we made a mistake by trying to enforce people to put others on ignore. I think it came from the idea that instead of banning either of you guys for a predetermined amount of time. we figured that the ignore button would be the more peaceful and better way. I don’t think it’s better. It’s probably better just to give people a timeout to think things over. So I apologize to you and EmperorNorton EmperorNorton for that.
Goddamn I love this forum.
 

EmperorNorton

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Actually CRKrueger CRKrueger, after reading your post and thinking about it, I think we made a mistake by trying to enforce people to put others on ignore. I think it came from the idea that instead of banning either of you guys for a predetermined amount of time. we figured that the ignore button would be the more peaceful and better way. I don’t think it’s better. It’s probably better just to give people a timeout to think things over. So I apologize to you and EmperorNorton EmperorNorton for that.
If it makes you feel any better, I do think that it has helped me somewhat. Not in the sense of "don't read what he writes" but in the sense of putting a bit of mental distance from it. Cause let's be honest, the ignore feature doesn't stop you from reading what people say, I've still read most of his posts. I just kind of detached from it a bit and got more perspective.
 

chuckdee

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It also means that if Topic A always goes aggro, you're functionally forced away from talking about it if you withdraw. There's some logical and likely undesirable evolutionary process at work there.

While true, I go back to the other part of my statement. It's just not worth it, man.
 

Ronnie Sanford

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Personally, I wouldn't consider that to be a political topic. I agree with the people that say there isn't a particular way to "act gay", but I'd be fine with the question being asked, giving people a chance to give a sensible answer to it. While it is possible to make political hay out of people's sexual preferences, there is nothing innately political about the subject, and it isn't something I want to see discussion of shut down. If someone asks a naïve question about it, I think we have enough knowledgeable, mature posters to answer the question in reasonable fashion.

Black Leaf Black Leaf also makes a good point that there are gay subcultures that have formed throughout history, so if the question was asked in a more specific manner, there can be some interesting information to be discussed.

Actually, I think Krueger is an example of how the "No Politics" rule isn't innately conservative, as Krueger is the most frequent person to go over the line. If there was a conservative bias, he wouldn't need to cross it so much.

On top of that, he's made it clear he has no interest in even attempting to follow the rules or spirit at the Pub. When he was asked to ignore Norton, he refused to do it. When I asked people to stop the safety tools discussion in the Moderation Thread, he kept going. Unfortunately, I was too busy with work that day to notice things had carried on until much later.

To give some transparency, I made the decision when I became a mod to avoid moderating Krueger as we have a contentious history, and I didn't want my personal dislike of him to affect the moderation of the forum. I felt it would be better to allow other mods to deal with him to avoid the appearance. I'm done with that now, as Krueger regularly makes comments about how if he does some particular thing "Baulderstone will threadban him". I guess he wants to cultivate an image of being the tough guy standing up to the mods, but it just looks absurd as until the last month, I have never moderated him at all.

This kind of manipulative dishonesty bothers me. It says a lot that so many posters here see him as getting special favor to do as he pleases while he acts as if he is the victim of mod persecution. I'm frankly tired of the mod team trying to accommodate him only for him to spit in everyone's face. It's reached a point where I feel its gone far beyond my personal dislike of the guy into him being a detriment to the whole forum.

Over the last month, I've reached the conclusion that he has no interest in following the rules of the Pub or the spirit it was founded on. I don't see much reason he should be posting here anymore. We've given him increasing run of the place by setting up special threads on his pet obsessions like "RPGs vs. Story Games" and the more he gets, the more unhappy he seems. I'm just tired of it.

I don’t agree with any of that! You’re projecting! How do you know what Krueger thinks? The answer is you don’t. Krueger might be a conservative American (which is apparently frowned upon by you) but he makes good, highly articulate posts. You should be thanking him Baulderstone!
 

tenbones

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That's where I disagree.

I know that gay people exist. I am not gay, I have very little experience with being gay. As a GM, I could definitely use resources if I want to add realistic gay people to my roster of NPCs and improve my game. That's not politics to me.

I think you proved my point though. And I'll leave it at that.

I'm not trying to single you out, but your comment caught my attention and serves as a larger example for what I'm about to say -

What is a "realistic gay person"?

I want to use this sentiment as a mirror to your claim about Krueger and the assertion of what you perceive as "conservatism" being something infused with his discourse methods. It's stuff like that which implies the same about yourself. This includes everyone that conflates "sensibilities" to being overtly political. They're related but definitely not indicative of some absolute.

Something a lot of people that are individualists find value in is not necessarily assuming the *need* for generalizations that aren't apparently manifested. This immediately kicks off the red-flag response. Like for example - do you *need* to have permission to add "realistic gay people" to your roster of NPC's - but by your own sensibilities it's not political, yet you ascribe "political" motives (or allegiances) to those that you disagree with.

I'm saying that by doing so - you're making it political as a means to shut down discourse. The irony here is that you MIGHT be right (but you'll never know without asking) and you might be ignorant to your participation in the dynamic of your own ideas in practice.

Case in point - you don't think your sensibilities about looking for resources on having "authentic gays" in your fantasy-elf games is political. But we all know there is no such thing as "an authentic representation" unless you're looking for some generalization that fits a bill informed by your own sensibilities. So why even ask?

I am an authentic Asian - I was banned permanently from TBP for giving my authentic Asian opinion about the use of the term "Jap" in what was supposed to be a realistic WWII era game. My first response was "Whatever you and your group are comfortable with at your table - go for it." This has nothing to do with my personal politics other than I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone what they can say or do (especially in the privacy of their own home). And I'm part Japanese. I do not care. Nor do any of my relatives or Japanese friends.

Of course to the white people on TBP, this was racist. And I was labeled as such and summarily removed from the forum which I'd been part of since 2002.

The issue of "no politics" is relative to the inability of people to discern the difference between political motivation, the ideologies that underpin them and the capacity to understand what these things mean in reality as opposed to ones imagination. Just because someone is an individualist doesn't mean they're conservative and just because someone prefers pluralistic decision making doesn't making them a communist etc. But given the ideological capture of so many people today where buzzwords become "defacto" definitions of actual political positions free of *any* nuance or context... it makes nearly every and all threads political. Because people believing they're simply putting forth their sensibilities don't realize they are being political in their prosecution of those sensibilities as a matter of discourse.

It is no surprise to me that people with certain sensibilities are so keen on "banning" or "/ignoring" people all fall into the same cluster of sensibilities and probably politics. What I'm surprised is that they don't seem to see that too, or at least acknowledge that for the endless amount of complaining that might be done, there seems to be no assumption that those being complained about might finally have no desire to put up with it any longer and likewise lash out. That's what happens when people feel provoked. The solution is more communication - not silencing.

Anyhow to be clear - not intending to single you out, but to use your comments as a good example of these dynamics in play.

TL/DR - it takes two to tango. Banning/ignoring people only maintains the very status quo that the people doing the most complaining about apparently suffer from. End result: get the authorities to silence the opposition.

My two-cents: I'm a mod on a very large forum where my forum is specifically Politics/Religion. The one thing I know is that whenever you have posters that do a lot of /ignoring or make private calls to have others silenced, you're going to have to deal with those same posters in nearly every thread because it becomes a habit for them. Just like it becomes a habit for their targets to fight back (assuming they haven't been /ignored - and as posted above never seems to quite do the trick, does it?), the issue does not resolve itself without the capacity for the participants to hash things out. Politics informs sensibilities, but sensibilities are not actual politics necessarily. Mods will eventually have to decide what level of tolerance of what they want in "bad behavior". My experience is that people that complain the most will never be satisfied. How you deal with them publicly or privately is dependent on how reasonable they are. Odds are you already know the answer to all of these things long before those discussions happen.
 

CRKrueger

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Actually CRKrueger CRKrueger, after reading your post and thinking about it, I think we made a mistake by trying to enforce people to put others on ignore. I think it came from the idea that instead of banning either of you guys for a predetermined amount of time. we figured that the ignore button would be the more peaceful and better way. I don’t think it’s better. It’s probably better just to give people a timeout to think things over. So I apologize to you and EmperorNorton EmperorNorton for that.
No worries man. For my part, sorry to be the problem that has to be addressed.
 

Paragon

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While true, I go back to the other part of my statement. It's just not worth it, man.

I absolutely get that. I just was noting it was one of those things that, followed to its logical conclusion, leads to some of the exact problems under discussion.
 

Paragon

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For what its worth, as another relatively new member, while I sometimes find myself vaguely put off by some things around here, I don't get the impression the mods here are doing anything but best-intent on moderation problems that often add up to trying to make two pieces of rope meet in the middle that become progressively more difficult as a forum's size expands.
 

Bunch

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I'm not trying to single you out, but your comment caught my attention and serves as a larger example for what I'm about to say -

What is a "realistic gay person"?

I want to use this sentiment as a mirror to your claim about Krueger and the assertion of what you perceive as "conservatism" being something infused with his discourse methods. It's stuff like that which implies the same about yourself. This includes everyone that conflates "sensibilities" to being overtly political. They're related but definitely not indicative of some absolute.

Something a lot of people that are individualists find value in is not necessarily assuming the *need* for generalizations that aren't apparently manifested. This immediately kicks off the red-flag response. Like for example - do you *need* to have permission to add "realistic gay people" to your roster of NPC's - but by your own sensibilities it's not political, yet you ascribe "political" motives (or allegiances) to those that you disagree with.

I'm saying that by doing so - you're making it political as a means to shut down discourse. The irony here is that you MIGHT be right (but you'll never know without asking) and you might be ignorant to your participation in the dynamic of your own ideas in practice.

Case in point - you don't think your sensibilities about looking for resources on having "authentic gays" in your fantasy-elf games is political. But we all know there is no such thing as "an authentic representation" unless you're looking for some generalization that fits a bill informed by your own sensibilities. So why even ask?

I am an authentic Asian - I was banned permanently from TBP for giving my authentic Asian opinion about the use of the term "Jap" in what was supposed to be a realistic WWII era game. My first response was "Whatever you and your group are comfortable with at your table - go for it." This has nothing to do with my personal politics other than I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone what they can say or do (especially in the privacy of their own home). And I'm part Japanese. I do not care. Nor do any of my relatives or Japanese friends.

Of course to the white people on TBP, this was racist. And I was labeled as such and summarily removed from the forum which I'd been part of since 2002.

The issue of "no politics" is relative to the inability of people to discern the difference between political motivation, the ideologies that underpin them and the capacity to understand what these things mean in reality as opposed to ones imagination. Just because someone is an individualist doesn't mean they're conservative and just because someone prefers pluralistic decision making doesn't making them a communist etc. But given the ideological capture of so many people today where buzzwords become "defacto" definitions of actual political positions free of *any* nuance or context... it makes nearly every and all threads political. Because people believing they're simply putting forth their sensibilities don't realize they are being political in their prosecution of those sensibilities as a matter of discourse.

It is no surprise to me that people with certain sensibilities are so keen on "banning" or "/ignoring" people all fall into the same cluster of sensibilities and probably politics. What I'm surprised is that they don't seem to see that too, or at least acknowledge that for the endless amount of complaining that might be done, there seems to be no assumption that those being complained about might finally have no desire to put up with it any longer and likewise lash out. That's what happens when people feel provoked. The solution is more communication - not silencing.

Anyhow to be clear - not intending to single you out, but to use your comments as a good example of these dynamics in play.

TL/DR - it takes two to tango. Banning/ignoring people only maintains the very status quo that the people doing the most complaining about apparently suffer from. End result: get the authorities to silence the opposition.

My two-cents: I'm a mod on a very large forum where my forum is specifically Politics/Religion. The one thing I know is that whenever you have posters that do a lot of /ignoring or make private calls to have others silenced, you're going to have to deal with those same posters in nearly every thread because it becomes a habit for them. Just like it becomes a habit for their targets to fight back (assuming they haven't been /ignored - and as posted above never seems to quite do the trick, does it?), the issue does not resolve itself without the capacity for the participants to hash things out. Politics informs sensibilities, but sensibilities are not actual politics necessarily. Mods will eventually have to decide what level of tolerance of what they want in "bad behavior". My experience is that people that complain the most will never be satisfied. How you deal with them publicly or privately is dependent on how reasonable they are. Odds are you already know the answer to all of these things long before those discussions happen.
My 2 cents is you can only successfully hash things out if people are willing to give everyone enough goodwill to talk. Otherwise everything is filtered through a lense that makes it virtually impossible to find common ground.
 

tenbones

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My 2 cents is you can only successfully hash things out if people are willing to give everyone enough goodwill to talk. Otherwise everything is filtered through a lense that makes it virtually impossible to find common ground.
Right. And the only thing you can control, is you. That is entirely up to you as an individual.

So the answer to the problem should be easily discernable. Though you may not like the results.
 

Bunch

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Right. And the only thing you can control, is you. That is entirely up to you as an individual.

So the answer to the problem should be easily discernable. Though you may not like the results.
By that I am guessing you mean you need to read with goodwill and write with the intent to maximize goodwill? If that's the case I'd agree.
 

Black Leaf

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I have nothing but respect for Endless and Tristram and what they’ve created here. At the same time, I predicted once Baulderstone was made a mod, my days were numbered. I simply annoy him too much on a personal level. As far as disrespect goes, I haven’t said anything even remotely close to calling him a deeply petty person or whatever he said to me (after being a mod), and other jabs he’s taken. He’s very good at mind reading the intentions and beliefs of those he doesn’t like. Then again, aren’t we all? I notice that while he been hands off, he’s kept the notebook handy cataloguing my sins. I also know he’s supported many of my posts, so we’re not completely at each other’s throats.
I can honestly say that from what I've seen Baulderstone does his best to avoid any moderation involving you whatsoever.

But from my perspective, I've moved from being one of the mods most prone to sticking up for you when I think you're being treated unfairly to finding your posts a headache. And we have absolutely no "previous"; I'd never met you before this forum.

It's also not about a catalogue of your sins going back to the start, at least not for me. It's that your posting style seems to have got more and more aggro to the point it's increasingly over the line now.

Baulderstone isn't the only moderator who dislikes a poster on a personal level. None of those animosities have led to a banning.
I call out X for politics. Political statement=Bad, right?
You call me out for calling out X for politics(which you coincidentally believe in). Non-political statement=Good, right?
Please tell me I’m not the only one who sees the problem with this.
It's about how you do it. In particular, if the mods have decided a thread isn't political and you disagree you seem to go out of your way to make it as political as you can in the hope of proving your point. It may not be intentional, but that's how it comes across to me.
Tristram said it upthread - if it’s politics you agree with, it’s not politics, if you disagree, it is. That’s the danger. I kind of assume, just from the sake of gamer demographics, that most people here skew blue, not red, except for the couple of people I know from the site that are more conservative. We also have a lot of non-Americans here, so I don’t think they quite appreciate how crazy the US is getting. I don’t want politics here, but I disagree that pointing out politics is politics, and if you don’t want to become Purple, you have to accept that what to you is Gospel to someone else is a political point.
That's understandable, but equally you have a tendency to go for us as if you're arguing with Americans on TBP. Which is going to throw people. In the same way as I suspect you're not going to be especially interested in the finer points of Scottish domestic politics and would be taken back if people start blowing up at you for touching on them.

If you want to fight culture war stuff, that's what the RPG Site is for. If someone (anyone) can't discuss a specific topic without feeling it *has* to be political, that's a good indicator they should stay away from those threads.
As for the ignore thing, was it a suggestion, an ask, or a tell? I get different versions each time. If you guys are commanding, you need to make it explicit, and enforceable. If the “Ignore Norton” was a command, the reason I didn’t follow it wasn’t disrespect, it was that I found alien the idea that you would say such a thing. I made it quite clear exactly why I disagreed. You can control what I say here, you don’t get to control what I read here. The idea itself is, frankly, ludicrous. Even if you had the tools to do so, simply logging out would defeat them. (No, this was not an invitation for IT guys to break out all pedantic :grin:)
That's a fair criticism that Endless has already covered to an extent. Extending from that, I think you've also come across a possible moderation issue. Has it been the case that we've been so focused on being light touch that it can be genuinely confusing when we're giving a mod direction and when we're just giving suggestions or arguing as posters? If so, that one's on us.
But...that poster was right, the truth doesn’t matter, does it?
The truth matters, although in many discussions we aren't talking about factual statements. But delivery also manages. If you come across as constantly looking for a fight, people are going to react to that.
You want to know why I do something, ASK ME.
I am going to call you out on this point specifically as something you should practice what you preach on. You second guess other poster's motivations without asking all the time. Which makes it really hard to sympathise if you get frustrated with people doing the same.

I don't want to go on and on, so in the interests of honesty I'll say the same thing I've been saying backstage.

I don't *want* to see you banned. I don't have any issue with you on a personal level. But the recent tone of your posts over all is just untenable. I'd rather that could be resolved if possible. And this post has made me more hopeful that might be feasible, but I just don't know. And for specifics, if a mod tells you to drop a subject (and we really don't do that unless our hand is forced) you need to drop it, without getting a few last jabs in.
 

Baulderstone

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This is a public personal attack carried by a moderator against a forum user. Nothing less, nothing more.
Read it how you will. I'm the guy who recused myself from moderating Krueger. He's the guy who repeatedly smears me with insinuations about me unfairly moderating him. This has been going on for years, and I've tried to be patient, but I am done with him.
There are lots of different ways to respond. Some good, some bad.
That one was bad.
How would you have handled my situation?
I have nothing but respect for Endless and Tristram and what they’ve created here. At the same time, I predicted once Baulderstone was made a mod, my days were numbered. I simply annoy him too much on a personal level. As far as disrespect goes, I haven’t said anything even remotely close to calling him a deeply petty person or whatever he said to me (after being a mod), and other jabs he’s taken. He’s very good at mind reading the intentions and beliefs of those he doesn’t like. Then again, aren’t we all? I notice that while he been hands off, he’s kept the notebook handy cataloguing my sins. I also know he’s supported many of my posts, so we’re not completely at each other’s throats.
"As far as disrespect goes", I find it pretty damn disrespectful to have made a point of recusing myself from moderating you only to have you repeatedly make posts implying I am using my mod position to persecute you.

As for your "days are numbered", I've been a mod here for three and half years. This isn't some long play to get you. It's me finally tiring of years of cutting you slack. And the "notebook cataloguing your sins"? Yeah, I am on the moderation staff. We keep track of what happens on the forum.

I'll close in agreeing that we aren't completely are each others throats. We actually have a big overlap in gaming tastes.
My post wasn’t snark unless Kruger suddenly became less articulate or if Baulderstone suddenly developed ESP.
It's not a sudden development. It took years meditation and study.
 

EmperorNorton

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Also, on the subject of "outside events affecting our moods", let's be honest. This last year has been hellish for most people and I'm sure a lot of us are more burnt out than we like to admit. I know I am.

Idk, we probably all need to give each other a lot more leeway on assuming the other person isn't a dick and is just having a bad day or that we're misreading because we are having a bad day.

And yes the we includes me.
 

Endless Flight

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This thread has been productive, I’d say. I think people should get things off their chest and say what’s bothering them. It’s not therapy, it’s just communication. It also can open up another person to different perspectives. I’ve learned something.
 

Bunch

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I have nothing but respect for Endless and Tristram and what they’ve created here. At the same time, I predicted once Baulderstone was made a mod, my days were numbered. I simply annoy him too much on a personal level. As far as disrespect goes, I haven’t said anything even remotely close to calling him a deeply petty person or whatever he said to me (after being a mod), and other jabs he’s taken. He’s very good at mind reading the intentions and beliefs of those he doesn’t like. Then again, aren’t we all? I notice that while he been hands off, he’s kept the notebook handy cataloguing my sins. I also know he’s supported many of my posts, so we’re not completely at each other’s throats.

Respect, however, isn’t agreement. Tristram and I agree on a lot, and we can butt heads, but it’s all good in the end. I don’t think Endless and I will agree on anything Prequel and Sequel related.

I call out X for politics. Political statement=Bad, right?
You call me out for calling out X for politics(which you coincidentally believe in). Non-political statement=Good, right?
Please tell me I’m not the only one who sees the problem with this.

Everyone pounds the Report button like they’re playing a bullet hell game whenever something pops up they don’t like. What’s the problem? Is it just saying “Hey, that’s political?” that’s the problem instead of reporting it behind the scenes? If that’s it, then just say that. Don’t say “calling something political is political” because that’s what everyone reporting is doing (not to mention that “calling something political is political”, “everything is political”, etc are political statements by their own logic).

Tristram said it upthread - if it’s politics you agree with, it’s not politics, if you disagree, it is. That’s the danger. I kind of assume, just from the sake of gamer demographics, that most people here skew blue, not red, except for the couple of people I know from the site that are more conservative. We also have a lot of non-Americans here, so I don’t think they quite appreciate how crazy the US is getting. I don’t want politics here, but I disagree that pointing out politics is politics, and if you don’t want to become Purple, you have to accept that what to you is Gospel to someone else is a political point.

As for the ignore thing, was it a suggestion, an ask, or a tell? I get different versions each time. If you guys are commanding, you need to make it explicit, and enforceable. If the “Ignore Norton” was a command, the reason I didn’t follow it wasn’t disrespect, it was that I found alien the idea that you would say such a thing. I made it quite clear exactly why I disagreed. You can control what I say here, you don’t get to control what I read here. The idea itself is, frankly, ludicrous. Even if you had the tools to do so, simply logging out would defeat them. (No, this was not an invitation for IT guys to break out all pedantic :grin:)

This segues nicely into the next subject. One poster that disagreed with me, rancorously, began PMing me, and we had some good conversations.

If we had set each other to ignore, such understanding becomes impossible.

One piece of advice he had for me was to “play the game better” and stop giving people ammunition to use against me. People don’t care what you say, they care how you say it. People don’t care for the truth, they care how they feel. You know, the stuff that anyone who wants to succeed in the Sociopathic Corporate environment needs to survive. Of course, having to live and breathe that in work environments everywhere, I have very little patience for it in my hobbies, which is why I decided long ago to stay off social media as much as possible.

But, what he said did shock me a little, because while I could go forum warrior with the best of them, I didn’t always. I wasn’t like Justin or Pseudoephedrine who commenced with a systematic beatdown on the most minor point of disagreement. I mean people you disagree with always dissemble, cover, strawman, goalpostshift, etc. and usually the more they complain is simply an indicator of how weak their argument is or because “You’re Never Wrong on the Internet”. I

I mean you look at one thread I could point to, and my supposed Nemesis Norton, he actually agreed with the point I was making, but there ten pages of flames because the way I said it, some people might find contentious.
But...that poster was right, the truth doesn’t matter, does it?

Look at the Justin debacle. Tristram actually decided to Wade through the debris, and piece together what actually happened, and guess what the truth of it was? Well, then he starts this thread and takes Viktor’s post restating Justin’s point that Tristram himself debunked as something to talk about. Justin also went for the throat on Rob Conley and called all the Moderators and the Pub as a whole misogynist. But the thread, as always lately, is about me.

Well, to me respect is honesty. So let me show you some respect.
  • I think most of the people calling for civility really just don’t want to be inconvenienced.
  • I think the people complaining the loudest are some of those who I disagree with most fundamentally on concepts of Roleplaying and, based on other site interactions, my views on how the Culture War is being waged.
  • I don’t think the above point is a coincidence.
  • I think two things can be true at the same time. I think Baulderstone can be neutral, while at the same time, just waiting for the right time. From other posts, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks his “Last Straw, Now the Gloves Are Off” post is a little too coincidentally timed, and the rationale a little too well constructed. As I said, he may not be modding, but he sure was cataloguing and building evidence, that’s quite clear from his post. His post also has a rationale behind every point that is the most egregious examples of assuming bad faith that I’ve ever seen. You want to know why I do something, ASK ME.
But, honesty has to be a two-way street, so I have to be honest with myself, too.

My thinking may be part of the problem.

When people I completely agree with and have known online for years are asking me “Dude, what the fuck are you doing?” it might be time to reassess.
  • I have no patience anymore.
  • I take, what looking back, is obvious bait. Parts of this post are a perfect example I guess.
  • I go from Zero to Warp Speed, with no throttle.
  • I have no filter.
  • I post without careful thought increasingly frequently. I think this one gets me the most in trouble, as it allows the construction of convenient narratives as to my intent.
Talking about personal shit isn’t fun, I rate it somewhere just above having wisdom teeth removed through my dick.

But, if I can’t get a Medical Transfer to a different position due to my back getting worse, I’m looking at a Medical Termination. Also, my mother has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, which is a whole level of horror past some vascular dementia, which is what we thought it was.

So, I’m probably not in the best mood, and that’s probably affecting a ton of things. So, I might be wrong about Baulderstone, or anyone else, or everyone else. Maybe I’m just seeing everything in a negative light and that’s impacting everything.

Who knows? I’m not sure I do anymore.
I just want to say this has helped me understand where you're coming from.
 

KrakaJak

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TL/DR - it takes two to tango. Banning/ignoring people only maintains the very status quo that the people doing the most complaining about apparently suffer from. End result: get the authorities to silence the opposition.

Ah, the old Paradox of Tolerance rearing it's head.

Unlimited tolerance leads to the disappearance of tolerance.

I will happily ignore/block the most intolerant voices, otherwise they simply generate a lot of useless noise, and I'm not using my free time to banter them down. On this site it's 1 person. That's a far cry from Ignore listing everyone I disagree with. The mods have taken it upon themselves to guide the community and I'm pretty impressed with how thoroughly and seriously they've taken on trying to find the balance there, and leading by example.

For the most part, we aren't discussing too many serious issues on the site. However, even being constantly intolerant of people's RPG preferences is is just as draining on the resources posters here, and the end result stifles discussion.
 

Black Leaf

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For the most part, we aren't discussing too many serious issues on the site. However, even being constantly intolerant of people's RPG preferences is is just as draining on the resources posters here, and the end result stifles discussion.

Although I will observe that part of that is that people (not just you) go to the more fraught threads like moths to a flame.

The vast majority of threads on the first page are entirely positive.
 

CRKrueger

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Read it how you will. I'm the guy who recused myself from moderating Krueger. He's the guy who repeatedly smears me with insinuations about me unfairly moderating him. This has been going on for years, and I've tried to be patient, but I am done with him.

How would you have handled my situation?

"As far as disrespect goes", I find it pretty damn disrespectful to have made a point of recusing myself from moderating you only to have you repeatedly make posts implying I am using my mod position to persecute you.

As for your "days are numbered", I've been a mod here for three and half years. This isn't some long play to get you. It's me finally tiring of years of cutting you slack. And the "notebook cataloguing your sins"? Yeah, I am on the moderation staff. We keep track of what happens on the forum.

I'll close in agreeing that we aren't completely are each others throats. We actually have a big overlap in gaming tastes.

It's not a sudden development. It took years meditation and study.
Well, to be fair, that one time, which would fit into the “years ago” portion, you were yelling at me as a poster, while I took it as a mod warning. Endless talked me down from that one. To my recollection (which may be incorrect), me saying you’re gonna threadban me is a more recent phenomenon (as evidenced by the fact that you guys didn’t really threadban until recently, at least not that we were made aware of). As long as the identity of who modded us is in doubt, you guys leave open the accusation of persecution, even if it’s usually just people pissed off. Saying who modded us, guarantees the accusation of persecution though, so I’ll agree you’re stuck either way.

I’ll own up to the fact that it’s a cheap shot, though. I’m not sure how many of those you’re supposed to take. I don’t know how many expressions of contempt I’m supposed to take either when I flip your switch. We’re going to piss each other off, on occasion, I don’t know that it can be avoided. I think we can probably avoid cheap shots. I don’t really think that’s the complete source of all the antipathy, but I’m giving my perceptions a break for a while. So, the cheap shot’s on me, I’ll cop to that one.
 

TristramEvans

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We started being vocal about threadbans after people were upset about Stealth Modding a while ago, so that may be why it seems like a more recent thing
 

Séadna

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The "gun laws" thread could have taken a political turn but it didn't and was a highly productive thread. So I'm interested in why that topic didn't blow up in the same way and how we can see more like that in the future.
My initial guess is that by and large the forum is pretty good at avoiding politics that's disconnected from RPGs. Like gun laws are a political issue that might be relevant to the setting of a game, but people seem to have little interest in getting into the real life issues. I think it's more "politics in games" adjacent stuff that causes blow ups. So if an RPG designer was explicitly pro/anti-guns and designed an RPG that involved the cops having no/more guns as a statement, that would be far more likely to degenerate.

This is probably obvious to you, but it would be my "first order estimate" at the truth.

That's understandable, but equally you have a tendency to go for us as if you're arguing with Americans on TBP. Which is going to throw people. In the same way as I suspect you're not going to be especially interested in the finer points of Scottish domestic politics and would be taken back if people start blowing up at you for touching on them.
I will say one thing the Pub is very good for is an awareness (shown in Krueger's post above for example) that those of us elsewhere aren't fully aware of this stuff. Other places are very bad for taking genuine confusion or ignorance on US politics as a performance hiding a secret allegiance to one side.
 
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CRKrueger

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On this subject, I'll say the number of actual arguments I've gotten into since ignoring Krueger has dropped pretty much to zero. From the other direction, considering I can still see people's replies to him... I do not think the same is happening from the other side.
Well, you’re not the only one saying something similar usually, so I can usually talk around you. It’s funny though, the one time I did have to stop myself from replying directly, it was in support of one of your posts. :grin:
 

EmperorNorton

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Well, you’re not the only one saying something similar usually, so I can usually talk around you. It’s funny though, the one time I did have to stop myself from replying directly, it was in support of one of your posts. :grin:
Aha. It does happen occasionally. I don't entirely disagree with you on some things. Like when people say "it's exactly the same" I'm also confused. Like I'm in the opinion of "there are more similarities than differences, but small differences can matter a lot for certain people even if they don't for me" when it comes to trad/narrative/etc, so when people say there is no difference at all it does confuse me a bit.
 
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