western RPG on Kickstarter: Mud, Blood, & Glory

3rik

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Did you notice in the example of game play that the two player characters walk up to a bar in a saloon and . . . I kid you not . . .order sarsaparilla?
Yeah...

 

Voros

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Did you notice in the example of game play that the two player characters walk up to a bar in a saloon and . . . I kid you not . . .order sarsaparilla?
So it's Drip-Along Daffy the RPG?

9066
 

finarvyn

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For me part of the problem is that it is the exact same weirdness in each game (undead, Native American Werewolves, gamblers with deals with the devil, steampunk, etc). This genre, "Weird West," needs a shot of something new. Or better yet, just stick to a Western that just bypasses all that.
What I'd like to see is a weird west which was more like Robert E Howard's supernatural western stories. Not hokey zombies and werewolves but something "straight western" with a hint of the supernatural. Real horror western stuff.
 

raniE

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Did you notice in the example of game play that the two player characters walk up to a bar in a saloon and . . . I kid you not . . .order sarsaparilla?
Well, sarsaparilla was available back in the 19th century, and was fairly popular, yeah? From what I’ve heard, people ordering straight up whiskey or the like would be fairly rare in the old west, with stuff like Stone fence being more popular.
 

Dumarest

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My understanding is that sarsparilla was seen more as a tonic or medicinal, i.e. snake oil, than something any hard-riding cowboy would order, especially an outlaw who wants to keep up appearances, but I'd have to check contemporary sources to learn how common it was as an actual soft drink.
sarsaparilla3.jpg
 

Toadmaster

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So it's Drip-Along Daffy the RPG?

View attachment 9066
I think you may be right. I was going to say Dumarest's suggestion of the Appledumpling Gang err Posse, was on target, but then realized Don Knotts and Tim Conway are probably to edgy.


I think there might (emphasize might) be a place for a lighter, less gritty, mildly anachronistic western with singing cowboys, and comedy action drama. Something to play a game modeled more after Paint Your Wagon, Goin' South, Support Your Local Sheriff, Shakiest Gun in the West etc.

I don't think this game is going for anything like that, or suitable for that. I'm honestly not sure what they are going for after reading through the quick start. The system seems to be going for a straight western theme, but the descriptive text says otherwise.

10 days in and they are not even 1/4 of the way to their $20,000 goal. I gather us negative nellies are not the only ones left scratching our heads.
 

Endless Flight

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I think it’s good to get the big details right but it’s alright to let relatively small things slide, like allowing a player use a gun invented in 1875 if you playing in 1870, or allowing them to buy Sarsparilla at a bar.
 

Black Vulmea

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Well, sarsaparilla was available back in the 19th century, and was fairly popular, yeah? From what I’ve heard, people ordering straight up whiskey or the like would be fairly rare in the old west, with stuff like Stone fence being more popular.
Yes, cocktails like gin and bitters or whiskey punch are popular in the period, but outlaws sidling up to the bar for sarsaparilla as anything other than comedy relief is just lame.

Or maybe they need to change the name to something like Lint, Perspiration & Temerity and set it in a soda fountain in Winesburg, Ohio or Mason City, Iowa.

I'm honestly not sure what they are going for after reading through the quick start. The system seems to be going for a straight western theme, but the descriptive text says otherwise.

10 days in and they are not even 1/4 of the way to their $20,000 goal. I gather us negative nellies are not the only ones left scratching our heads.
When you can have a copy of 3e Boot Hill in your mailbox in a couple of weeks, why bother?

I think it’s good to get the big details right but it’s alright to let relatively small things slide, like allowing a player use a gun invented in 1875 if you playing in 1870 . . .
If you don't want to deal with the technology of 1870, why not just set your campaign in 1875?

Looking back, I wish we'd set our Boot Hill campaign in the late 1860s, rather than starting in 1873, because the constraints make for some interesting choices. That's really a big part of historical roleplaying.

. . . or allowing them to buy Sarsparilla at a bar.
It's not that it's anachronistic - it's that it's ridiculous, like several other choices made for the game.
 

Toadmaster

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I think it’s good to get the big details right but it’s alright to let relatively small things slide, like allowing a player use a gun invented in 1875 if you playing in 1870, or allowing them to buy Sarsparilla at a bar.
Many of the classic western films and TV series play very fast and loose with the firearms. You find the Colt Peacemaker in plenty of films set before 1873 simply because it is A) an iconic old west pistol, and B) (also more importantly) it is easier logistically to be able to use modern cartridge blanks which you can in the Colt.

The Outlaw Josey Wales is rather notable for its use of period correct cap and ball revolvers, but then Clint is known for being a stickler for details like that.

The guns are not an issue in this game as the are just generic firearms.
 

Endless Flight

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I dunno. I think Weird West games are ridiculous so what is served at a bar doesn’t matter to me one way or the other.
 

Dumarest

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I think it’s good to get the big details right but it’s alright to let relatively small things slide, like allowing a player use a gun invented in 1875 if you playing in 1870, or allowing them to buy Sarsparilla at a bar.
It's not a question of "allowing," it's the idiocy of using that as an example for your outlaw "posse."
I dunno. I think Weird West games are ridiculous so what is served at a bar doesn’t matter to me one way or the other.
Might as well have them order Diet Cokes and sip them through plastic straws then.
 

Endless Flight

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Might as well have them order Diet Cokes and sip them through plastic straws then.
I don’t think Sarsparilla is stretching disbelief that you are playing in a Wild West setting.

It’s not like we are talking about outlaws riding around in Model-Ts.
 

Dumarest

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I don’t think Sarsparilla is stretching disbelief that you are playing in a Wild West setting.
It is when your example is an outlaw gang, but you're free to accept whatever degree of idiocy you like.
 

Endless Flight

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It is when your example is an outlaw gang, but you're free to accept whatever degree of idiocy you like.
I don’t want to call him an idiot. I just think he or them are not shooting for a pure authentic Wild West historical experience. He seems to realize what he did by calling every player group a posse. He’s just doing it how he wants.
 

Voros

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I think you may be right. I was going to say Dumarest's suggestion of the Appledumpling Gang err Posse, was on target, but then realized Don Knotts and Tim Conway are probably to edgy.


I think there might (emphasize might) be a place for a lighter, less gritty, mildly anachronistic western with singing cowboys, and comedy action drama. Something to play a game modeled more after Paint Your Wagon, Goin' South, Support Your Local Sheriff, Shakiest Gun in the West etc.

I don't think this game is going for anything like that, or suitable for that. I'm honestly not sure what they are going for after reading through the quick start. The system seems to be going for a straight western theme, but the descriptive text says otherwise.

10 days in and they are not even 1/4 of the way to their $20,000 goal. I gather us negative nellies are not the only ones left scratching our heads.
I don’t think there’s any issue with playing in a slightly cleaned up and idealized West, the issue to me is that is apparently the only option being presented.

I think the solution here would be to offer a range of ‘dials’ like Hite does in Night’s Black Agents. He offers a range of mechanics and advice to help create a spy game ranging from Le Carre, to The Sandbaggers to James Bond.

So you could play the highly romanticized straight shooters of the Hearts of the West B-Westerns or the more gritty but still noble lawmen of the Ford and Mann Westerns; or the ultraviolent outlaws and cynical lawmen of The Wild Bunch and Spaghetti Westerns; or the deglamorized cowboys and murderers of revisionist Westerns like The Culpepper Cattle Co. and Unforgiven.

The Western as a genre has a wide range of styles and approaches, not sure if the designers here just don’t have a deep enough knowledge or if they’ve decided for simplicities sake to narrow the game.
 
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Toadmaster

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I don’t think there’s any issue with playing in a slightly cleaned up and idealized West, the issue to me is that is apparently the only option being presented.

I think the solution here would be to offer a range of ‘dials’ like Hite does in Night’s Black Agents. He offers a range of mechanics and advice to help create a spy game ranging from Le Carre, to The Sandbaggers to James Bond.

So you could play the highly romanticized straight shooters of the Hearts of the West B-Westerns or the more gritty but still noble lawmen of the Ford and Mann Westerns; or the ultraviolent outlaws and cynical lawmen of The Wild Bunch and Spaghetti Westerns; or the deglamorized cowboys and murderers of revisionist Westerns like The Culpepper Cattle Co. and Unforgiven.

The Western as a genre has a wide range of styles and approaches, not sure if the designers here just don’t have a deep enough knowledge or if they’ve decided for simplicities sake to narrow the game.
Absolutely, I would have no issue with somebody doing a "clean cut" western game if it was clear that was their intent. That is what I was getting at in saying there might be a market for a kinder gentler western for playing the comedic or camp style of westerns, many of which actually do take the subject somewhat seriously. Take a film like Support you Local Sheriff, it is a funny movie with a low body count but it is still a pretty legit western film covering the common genre elements. Probably wouldn't be as funny and the body count would undoubtedly be much higher (because players), but it could easily be used as the plot for any western game. A game designed to allow for less lethal outcomes, and where bard like singing cowboys could calm the wickedest outlaw would be better suited to something like that.

I don't believe that is a huge market but if it was well done I'd probably get it just for doing something a little different.

The main issue for me is the apparent lack of any focus. The title, and apparent focus on outlaws is completely at odds with the tome of pretty much everything else about the game. If you are going to pitch your game as something suitable for safe spaces then for the love of toast, at least put a singing cowboy on the cover.
 

Dumarest

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I don’t want to call him an idiot. I just think he or them are not shooting for a pure authentic Wild West historical experience. He seems to realize what he did by calling every player group a posse. He’s just doing it how he wants.
Willful idiocy is still idiocy.
 

Picaroon Jack

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You’ll always have Boot Hill, the only Western RPG anyone would ever want.
Boot Hill is the only one I've played (I'm not counting Deadlands), but I have Coyote Trail, Under Western Skies, and a couple of others that were PWYW. Has anyone experience with any of the others? GURPS or Rolemaster's Outlaw?

If mentioned above I apologize, it just seems like Boot Hill (any edition) is the gold standard.
 

Supervisor194

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I have Aces & Eights Reloaded but have yet to play it. If I ever do I will ignore the alternate history stuff. The rulebook is gorgeous.
 

Toadmaster

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Boot Hill is the only one I've played (I'm not counting Deadlands), but I have Coyote Trail, Under Western Skies, and a couple of others that were PWYW. Has anyone experience with any of the others? GURPS or Rolemaster's Outlaw?

If mentioned above I apologize, it just seems like Boot Hill (any edition) is the gold standard.

Gurps Old West and Western HERO were quite good, assuming you like the associated games.

It is a shame that Western HERO came along so late in 4th edition, shortly before ICE/HERO games crashed. It was a very well done setting book that added / tweaked rules for the fast draw, and spent a good bit of time on how to use the Presence attack in an old west setting. It seems it is hardly even known outside of a few diehard HERO fans.

I think with a cooperative GM, and a PC with the appropriate amount of bluster (and points in PRE) this scene could be pulled off under the rules.


If my repeated mention of this movie, isn't enough of a clue, I love this movie. It is up there with the Outlaw Josey Wales on my list of greats.
 

Toadmaster

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What's their alternate history angle?
I picked up the core rules pdf. Ignoring the alternate history it is isn't a bad game, but is on the crunchy end of things. Much more complex than Boothill 3E. It does include rules for things like ranching, mining, running cattle drives etc almost mini-games which could be useful with other games.
 

finarvyn

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If my repeated mention of this movie, isn't enough of a clue, I love this movie. It is up there with the Outlaw Josey Wales on my list of greats.
A classic. I enjoy both Support Your Local Sheriff and Support Your Local Gunfighter. I wish James Garner would have made a dozen of those things. :grin:
 

Supervisor194

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A classic. I enjoy both Support Your Local Sheriff and Support Your Local Gunfighter. I wish James Garner would have made a dozen of those things. :grin:
Wasn't his character in Maverick pretty much the same?
 

Black Vulmea

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I don’t want to call him an idiot. I just think he or them are not shooting for a pure authentic Wild West historical experience. He seems to realize what he did by calling every player group a posse. He’s just doing it how he wants.
Or here's another possibility: he's not very good at this.
 

Black Vulmea

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Not many people who want a western game without, you know, actual western stuff in it.
It's actually kinda worse than that.

I read through the starter pdf a little more thoroughly and I'm reminded of some gamers, particularly on forums, who use the wrong word for something but, when it's pointed out to them, double-down on the usage, insisting that all language is fungible, rather than just saying, oh, I didn't know that. Some of the odd language is used to cover the fact that this is a d20 heartbreaker: Draw is Initiative, Target is Armor Class, and so on. Some is just an odd usage given the subject matter: the animal you ride is a Steed, which makes me think of Eddie Mutphy - 'You hear that? She called me a noble steed! I'm a steed!' - not Louis L'Amour. And there are all sorts of weird choices: you can by a Firestarter - another made-up term for tinder box - and you get bonuses for giving your character a first and last name, in a genre filled with characters with one name - 'Shane! Shane!' - or a nickname - or maybe 'The' is The Virginian's first name? Just so many places the rules go 'CLANK!' for me.

[Addendum: And it's cavalry saber, not 'cavalry sword.] And there's no such thing as a 'bighorn rifle.' And antivenin wasn't invented until 1895. And what the hell is a 'range carbine'? Okay, I'll stop now.]

And how do you have a Western RPG without rules for fast draw, hipshooting, firing with two guns? Maybe these are in the 'advanced rules,' but since the rules are so sketchy in the basic pdf, I'm not sure I'd be willing to put down the money without seeing those first.

I'm someone who'll pony up for a game if it looks like it has some good ideas I can swipe for other games; about the only kind thing I can say about this one is, I like the artwork.
 
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The Butcher

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I would expect no less a butchering of the American Old West by European authors than that perpetrated by American authors on the European Middle Ages. :devil::gunslinger:

That being said, @Black Vulmea’s notes are pretty damning, game-design-wise. Hard pass for me (which is what I was inclined to do anyway; I’m wary of Euro games with lush color art and giant rulebooks and super crunchy rulesets).
 
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raniE

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Where does it say that the creators are European? The kickstarter info seems to indicate that they're located in California, and the guy in the interview did not sound European at all. I hope people aren't confusing this with the kickstarter for an English translation of the Swedish game Western, which is an entirely different game by an entirely different company.
 
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