WFRP (all editions & Zweihänder) Chatty Thread

Black Leaf

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I have had similar experiences with RPGs where there is a huge disconnect between online and IRL reactions. I can't speak for the sites you mentioned but I have the sneaking suspicion that a lot of posters on Reddit and /tg/ who endlessly theory wank about RPGs rarely actually play them. One of the things that attracted me to the 'Pub was that a lot of posters seem to have legit gaming experience to back up their opinions instead of parroting something they heard online.
TBF, just because I run regularly doesn't mean I'm not shit at it.
 

Black Leaf

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I'm not convinced that 4e was rigorously play-tested or proofed. It seems like a final draft rather than a 1st edition to me. Some of it is rather confusing and I remember seeing a mistake on the opening page and thinking oh dead...Still, I think that it does a decent job of tidying up careers and also the monster section is pretty good. In fact, you could argue that you could take the 4e rules and use a different setting with the tools given in the core book, whilst the game that suggests that to you (zweihander) is ironically actually more tied to the Old World and thus you'd have to tweak things.
Yeah, that's my vibe from it as well. There's some very good ideas but it feels like it was rushed out to meet deadlines.

An example: The new Enemy Within campaign has starting costs that are more than a starting character's initial funds have any chance of covering. That's the kind of thing that playtesting should have spotted.
 

Séadna

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Is the new Enemy Within campaign worth getting?
 

Baulderstone

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Is the new Enemy Within campaign worth getting?
I've looked over the PDF of the first volume, but I am waiting for the hard copy to really dig into it, but it looks good. It provides lots of options for changing the adventure around to keep it fresh if your players went through it back in the day. Even if your players are new to the campaign, I can see a GM using some of the options simply because they prefer them or make part of the adventure more involving to a particular PC.

Like most campaigns in a book, there are elements of railroading here and there, but players still have a lot of freedom. In the new edition, there are even some suggestions on avoiding some of the railroading elements of the original.

The later part of the campaign is going to re-written to address the issues with it, but as none of that material is out yet, I can't say if it is improvement.
 

Spartan

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I've just started reading GURPSHammer, and it's seems pretty neat so far. I don't know if it will ever replace my beloved WHFRP 3e, but it never hurts to have a good GURPS rendition of well, anything.
 

Stevethulhu

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I've just started reading GURPSHammer, and it's seems pretty neat so far. I don't know if it will ever replace my beloved WHFRP 3e, but it never hurts to have a good GURPS rendition of well, anything.
GURPSHammer 2.0? That one is fantastic. The perfect blend of 1e setting, including a while bunch of stuff cribbed directly from the 1e core and Enemy Within, mixed with 2e fluff. And The Oldenhaller Contract.

In fact, I'm now thinking I might embark on a Doomstones conversion.
 

AsenRG

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It's certainly quite a tome! I haven't run it yet, and the crunch level is considerable, but not more than Mythras as far as I can see. I like the percentile dice manipulation "tricks" that are in there, which seems to alleviate the whiff factor of linear systems.
Linear systems have no inherent whiff factor, though. OTOH, flip-flopping the dice is a well-known trick to increase the odds of success of "low skill" characters.

The difference I found is that all of Mythras's crunch adds to the gameplay. Essentially, ou get out of Mythras what you put into it - the crunch is purposeful and delivers tangible benefits in gameplay.
Basically sums up my experience with Zweihander...which I tried reading, and set aside after concluding that my group would take months to read it, if I'm needing weeks.
Worse, I could see no good reason for all the crunch. At least some of it could have simply been presented more concisely.

Possibly?

I never played 2e. Book bloat and not seeing any actual reason to put down the entire game in a single volume that is 1e.
Wait, if you're waiting for a version that is separating the Skills from Abilities, and it's possible that said version might already exist...why wouldn't you at least read it to find out if it fits your mechanical criteria:shock:?

There's also French WFRP clones, Brygandine. Not available in English, but translating software will render usable, if inelegant, results. Brygandine is a bit lighter than any WFRP I've seen. All the rolls are player facing. It has the same "vibe", though.
As a side note, the French summary of the BRP rules was all of 10 pages long. I printed it out after joining a RQ2/3/CoC game where the GM only asked that we have a basic idea of the rules... (I still have this printout somewhere in my country house, I believe).
Is it just me, or do the French designers prefer to make the rules even lighter:tongue:?
But then again they've got gems like Qin, Le Pavillion Noir and Kuro...which don't exactly count as "light". So it might be just an impression I've got.


Enemy Within, Shadows over Bogenhafen and Death on the Reik, along with the core book, make for the most incredible and perfectly described setting ever.

Seriously, the big picture of the core book, the colour of EW, the city from SoB and the trading system plus the river network of DotR.

Change my mind.
If it works for you, it works for you.
But seriously, man, I hate games that put important information in campaigns/adventures...meaning the kind of supplements I'm just not likely to read, like at all:evil:!
Heh, you and I got into it quite a bit as I recall. IIRC, a lot of the excessively narrative aspect of the system your GM wasn’t using.
WFRP3 had so many cool mechanics in the various classes. Unfortunately, the core mechanics of the game ended up being worthless.
Yeah, I remember those were fun to read, but I didn't want to bother joining in the fray...


Which is crunchier, Zweihander or WFRP4e?
I was going to say "Zweihander by a large margin"...but then I realized I'd be comparing a game I didn't finish with a game I didn't read at all, I just took a pre-made character and joined a one-shot. At the end of it I knew enough to play WFRP4e, and possibly to run it as well.
I doubt I could do that with Zweihander. But then again, I'm not likely to find anyone around here willing to run a one-shot of it for me.
So basically, my impression is that Zweihander has quite a bit more crunch. But I might very well be wrong. And this info is worth as much as you paid for it, too!

Well, here's my feelings on that.

I know these aren't widely shared opinions, so this is just my PoV, and I'm fine with being a minority in taste.

From what I understand of 2nd ed it has a fundamentally different design philosophy from 1st. Alot of this centres around the careers, and it's something perpetuated in Zweihander.

First edition is an "old school" game, and by that I mean character creation largely relies upon random rolls. You, as the player, are tasked with making the best of what fate hands you. Things in the game are not "balanced" - what accessions the game makes towards the concept of balance is that everyone is essentially giving the same chances, and everyone is stuck with what fate - the roll of the dice-delivers.

Moreover, it was clearly the intention in first edition that the careers were not equivalent to "levels". You didn't simply move from one career to another along a path, what you did was intended to line up with the events in the game. This may mean, not progressing for long periods of time, or rapidly progressing in a short period, depending on what was going on in the campaign. You never simply "leveled up" - if you wanted to start in a new career, you needed to go out in the world and make that happen - gather supplies, find a teacher/someone to hire you etc, sometimes involve yourself in a long and grueling, sometimes pointless, apprentieship. All of this was a part of your character's story (no, I'm not using that in the narrative gaming sense, I mean literally the life of the character in the Old World). "Career Exits" were easy paths - you could move up from being an outlaw to an outlaw chief, but this certainly wasn't the only, or even expected, course of events. Many times if you wanted to go in a different direction in life, you either would have to start over with another basic career as the opportunity presented itself, or you were thrust into by events outside your control (not many people would chose to be a beggar).

This approach to the game, IMO, is what gave it a lot of it's flavour. It's also the part that over the years, I've seen to be the most mis-understood and mis-handled, and thus, the most complaigned about.

And so second edition attempted to "fix" this, meaning ignore the intentions of first edition and instead cater to the prevalent misperceptions, and treat careers instead like a combination of classes and levels that you moved through in a linear fashion, one career's exits leading to the next. And to make this "fair", the careers were balanced against each other.

The thing is, I think it's one or the other - you go random, and the balance is that everyone rolls the dice and everyone is given the same chances to succeed or not, or you make the outcomes balanced, in which case random rolling becomes pointless. And this is taken even further in Zweihander, which "improved" on the concepts of 2E by making the careers even MORE balanced, meaning it's even more pointless to roll, because the difference in outcomes is little more than window-dressing.

To put it another way, if a situation in a game had the outcome - succeed in one way, succeed in another way, or succeed in a third way - there would be no point in rolling, would there? You'd just simply say to the player, any of these methods would work, pick whichever you like. So why is it acceptable in character creation, beyond just a legacy mechanic harkening back to a time when the game was a different game?

Anyways, I also find that 1E had a fantastically streamlined combat system - one of the best ever in RPGs, IMO, and every attempt to improve that has just made it clunkier, slower, and more complicated without adding any meaningful benefit.

I guess that's my grognardian rant for the day, but that's mainly why I've stuck with and continue to stick with 1E - because most of the things people interpret as "bugs" in the game I see as features.

Join me next time when I explain why there's nothing wrong with the armour rules in FASERIP, and you're a bad person for wanting to change them.
I respect your opinion, I just have one question: are you seriously claiming that WFRP's Careers are "overly balanced"?


My friends all loved 3e. They loved having all of the rules on cards, the "slotting" mechanisms and stances. My players were from a variety of different play styles too. We weren't some kind of echo chamber.

But yeah, I found that pretty much all online fora hated this game. TheRPGSite, RPG.net, SomethingAwful... the derision was univeral. IN real life, however, everyone I played with loved it.

SHRUG
So you gave the fora the finger and happily played the game, right, pardner:gunslinger:?
 

TristramEvans

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I respect your opinion, I just have one question: are you seriously claiming that WFRP's Careers are "overly balanced"?

eh...I would make a more nuanced argument, as I'm not sure I could actually define "overly balanced", when it comes down to it. I'd say instead that progressive attempts to balance the careers from 2nd edition onwards have, in doing so, sacrificed the flavour of 1st edtion.
 

AsenRG

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eh...I would make a more nuanced argument, as I'm not sure I could actually define "overly balanced", when it comes down to it. I'd say instead that progressive attempts to balance the careers from 2nd edition onwards have, in doing so, sacrificed the flavour of 1st edtion.
I really need to check 1ed in more depth, if it has managed to be less balanced than the 2e:thumbsup:!
 

CRKrueger

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Enemy Within, Shadows over Bogenhafen and Death on the Reik, along with the core book, make for the most incredible and perfectly described setting ever.

Seriously, the big picture of the core book, the colour of EW, the city from SoB and the trading system plus the river network of DotR.

Change my mind.
Why would I change your mind when you’re 100% correct? Then they added in Warhammer City - Middenheim/Power Behind the Throne, the most incredible and perfectly described City Campaign ever.

Man, I’m really looking forward to the rest of the new Enemy Within campaign. Unfortunately, with Andy Law leaving, and all the delays, I’m skeptical that they’ll finish, which is a goddamn shame.

But as a Warhammer Roleplayer and 40k player, I’m used to abject misery and colossal disappointment. :devil:
 

CRKrueger

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Well, I think they were looking at the upsurge in popularity of complex board games at the time and they were making an attempt to reach out to a broader audience. It may not have worked, but with as complex as some board games are these days and the incorporation of more and more RPG elements, I don't think looking at crossover products is the worste idea, even if in this case it didn't appeal to me personally ( I'd be more amenable to a remake of Talisman, or a Mordheim variation with a more robust RPG aspect).

Ultimately, though, they had an especially high hurdle to overcome as theywere following up one of the most well-regarded fantasy games of all time, and more than anything I'm sure they suffered from the comparison.

The Marvel SAGA game suffered a similar fate for similar reasons I think.
It’s more than that, it’s the audience. Ok, so a premier board game maker wants to make an RPG with gorgeous dice, cards and widgets. Mission accomplished, the art and presentation was glorious. They then tried to sell a highly narrative system to Warhammer roleplayers, wargamers, cardgamers, and boardgamers.

Could be great narrative mechanics, it just ain’t Warhammer.
 

AsenRG

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Christ Dude, it’s not even close.
Well, I've got WFRP 1&2, but honestly, they don't look that different to me mechanics-wise. Then again, maybe I'm missing something because I've mostly stuck to 2e due to the rules being cleaned-up and easier to reference.
Care to point anything in particular that I'm missing:grin:?

Indeed. Balance requires design, and WFRP1e doesn't seem so much designed as thrown together and accidentally happening to work. It's glorious chaos.
That sounds heretical:shade:.
 

Stevethulhu

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Indeed. Balance requires design, and WFRP1e doesn't seem so much designed as thrown together and accidentally happening to work. It's glorious chaos.
WFRPG 1e is literally a war game with a skill system. And a sort of class system, plus a few bits nicked from popular games of the day. And yet, it doesn’t just work, it works gloriously. A perfect blend of setting and system.

It makes me wonder if Doomstones could be ran as a forum game.
 

AsenRG

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WFRPG 1e is literally a war game with a skill system. And a sort of class system, plus a few bits nicked from popular games of the day. And yet, it doesn’t just work, it works gloriously. A perfect blend of setting and system.

It makes me wonder if Doomstones could be ran as a forum game.
Well, Warhammer also became popular due to a wargame, didn't it?
 

Stevethulhu

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Funny, I can swear I've seen people playing it...:shock:
I've seen people playing many games that are out of print.

"Games Workshop made the decision to refocus its business. It had found that the miniatures business was much more profitable than pure publishing; WFRP sold very few miniatures, and adding WFRP material to WFB and Warhammer 40,000 supplements had done little to boost the sales of those products."

It needs a citation, but at the same time as WHFRP was cancelled, GW cancelled reprints of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest 3e. As well cancelling as their own Judge Dredd RPG. Not to mention cancelling minis lines for the Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator, Doctor Who and such 2000AD tie ins as Rogue Trooper.

Basically, they decided that Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40k were where the money was.

Which has proved to be a sound business decision, even if the RPG market has suffered from their absence. Which is in itself, a subject for debate.

 

Ladybird

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Which has proved to be a sound business decision, even if the RPG market has suffered from their absence. Which is in itself, a subject for debate.

I'm not sure it has suffered. The universes they created (Warhammer, 40k, Sigmar) have the right "IT" factor to pull in a fanbase (People wanted a 40k RPG for decades), they're incredibly accessible - there are so many entry points beyond just the tabletop games - and they also have a high street store in almost every city of note in the UK (Which, sure, is a business decision, but you don't get to that status by selling reprints of other people's RPG books). They don't discuss the roleplaying side themselves much, but if you're in a game group it doesn't take long before someone hears about roleplaying and decides to try it. If you're a child in the UK, you get exposed to something Warhammer eventually.
 

Stevethulhu

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I'm not sure it has suffered. The universes they created (Warhammer, 40k, Sigmar) have the right "IT" factor to pull in a fanbase (People wanted a 40k RPG for decades), they're incredibly accessible - there are so many entry points beyond just the tabletop games - and they also have a high street store in almost every city of note in the UK (Which, sure, is a business decision, but you don't get to that status by selling reprints of other people's RPG books). They don't discuss the roleplaying side themselves much, but if you're in a game group it doesn't take long before someone hears about roleplaying and decides to try it. If you're a child in the UK, you get exposed to something Warhammer eventually.
To the point where I've heard Warhammer named as The British Hobby.
 

Ladybird

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I think GW have a history of just throwing around the phrase "role-playing" wherever they feel like it. Epic : Space Marine was described as "3D role playing" on the box, Inquisitor billed itself as a role-playing skirmish game because you needed a moderator, Warhammer Quest and Necromunda had "roleplaying books" with their campaign system in, etc.
 

TristramEvans

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Well, Warhammer Fantasy started as a hybrid - it wasn't completely an RPG, but it did make use of character creation, the game was run by a GM, and it had narrative modules - quite different from the tournament battle game it became with 4th edition. Of course, this was the same era that RPGs were still calling themselves wargames, so it's kinda six of one, half a dozen of the other.

It was third edition that it actually split into the Fantasy Battle Game and the Role-Playing Game.
 

TristramEvans

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Funny, I can swear I've seen people playing it...:shock:
Do you mean the wargame or the RPG?

After GW dropped it's role-playing division to devote it's attention to it's proprietary retail stores and refocus it's target demographic to upper middle class young adolescents, the license for the RPG was taken up by Hogshead publishing, who from 1994 to 2003 keptthe game in print and released a number of supplements, although GW retained editorial control over content. So, for a game whose life was over a decade, its not suprising it continues to be played and still has fans to this day.

The wargame...it's a bit more complicated. Warhammer Fantasy Battle was officially replaced by Warhammer: Age of Sigmar a few years back. AoS is also a fantasy miniature wargame, that makes use of the same IP, and is positioned as a continuuation of the fluff of Warhammer Fantasy. The Old World setting of the original game was officially ended with 8th edition in an extended event called "The End Times", which concluded with the world getting blowed up.

Age of Sigmar began shortly thereafter, with the premise that Sigmar, the living god of the Empire from the Old World, survived the explosion by clinging to an asteroid. Then he floated through the cosmos until he met a space dragon, and the two became BFFs' and the dragon taught him magic to create a new setting and bring back his old friends from the old world, but everybody now is "MORE XXX_TREME!!!" (like Doritoes), and they added Space Marines to the fantasy game.


While WFB was a complex strategy battle game with rankle and file troops, AoS is a mass-battle skirmish game.

Needless to say, the fans were mostly not thrilled with this development, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.



But, towards the end of last year GW made the announcement that The Old World is returning, so...there's that (in that's a whole new can o' worms)
 
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CRKrueger

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Indeed. Balance requires design, and WFRP1e doesn't seem so much designed as thrown together and accidentally happening to work. It's glorious chaos.
It really is fun getting a group together and making up characters. Trying to get a Wizard’s Apprentice and rolling Merchant... The whole group cheering when someone gets a Pit Fighter... Good times.
 

Baulderstone

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I meant the wargame. I've never seen anyone using miniatures for the RPG, and I've seen more sessions of that, probably due to my own biases.
In 1st edition WFRP, the rules assumed you were using minis, with the combat chapter using diagrams to illustrate their use,
 

Stevethulhu

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In 1st edition WFRP, the rules assumed you were using minis, with the combat chapter using diagrams to illustrate their use,
I used minis from time to time with 1e. Thanks to Heroquest, Blood Boowl and a set of dungeon geomorphs. Ahh, the fun when the lone necromancer gets confronted, only to cast his summon spell and a dozen skellingtons get plonked on the table.

It's a shame those board games got left in the divan draw when we got a new bed. Teach me to look before I let them take the thing!
 

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Many of our Warhammer RPG campaigns culminated in massive battles that sometimes took several sessions to play out. Hell, they sometimes took more than one session to set out all the units, sometimes we had many hundreds of minis on the board at one time and many more lurking just off it as reinforcements.
 

CRKrueger

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Many of our Warhammer RPG campaigns culminated in massive battles that sometimes took several sessions to play out. Hell, they sometimes took more than one session to set out all the units, sometimes we had many hundreds of minis on the board at one time and many more lurking just off it as reinforcements.
Did you stick with the WFRP combat system or did you switch to WFB?

I think the biggest fights we had in WFRP were when I ran Lichemaster. We laid out the town of Frugelhofen And Maisontaal on a ping-pong table using the cardstock houses that came with the WFB boxed set. Lots and lots and lots of skeletons.
 

Voros

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I've seen people playing many games that are out of print.

"Games Workshop made the decision to refocus its business. It had found that the miniatures business was much more profitable than pure publishing; WFRP sold very few miniatures, and adding WFRP material to WFB and Warhammer 40,000 supplements had done little to boost the sales of those products."

It needs a citation, but at the same time as WHFRP was cancelled, GW cancelled reprints of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest 3e. As well cancelling as their own Judge Dredd RPG. Not to mention cancelling minis lines for the Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator, Doctor Who and such 2000AD tie ins as Rogue Trooper.

Basically, they decided that Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40k were where the money was.

Which has proved to be a sound business decision, even if the RPG market has suffered from their absence. Which is in itself, a subject for debate.

If I remember right a lot of the business background is discussed on the Grognard Files with Mike Brunton.

 

Winterblight

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Did you stick with the WFRP combat system or did you switch to WFB?

I think the biggest fights we had in WFRP were when I ran Lichemaster. We laid out the town of Frugelhofen And Maisontaal on a ping-pong table using the cardstock houses that came with the WFB boxed set. Lots and lots and lots of skeletons.
We switched to WFB for the big set pieces. I "think" we were playing the Hogshead version of WFRP and one of the older versions of the WFB - I know all the armies where in one book rather than each having a book to themselves. I don't remember the process exactly for converting the characters to WFB, but I think our current fate points became our total wounds. I was a player, so I don't remember all the details.
 

TristramEvans

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We switched to WFB for the big set pieces. I "think" we were playing the Hogshead version of WFRP and one of the older versions of the WFB - I know all the armies where in one book rather than each having a book to themselves. I don't remember the process exactly for converting the characters to WFB, but I think our current fate points became our total wounds. I was a player, so I don't remember all the details.
Sounds like 3rd ed, which makes sense - the two systems were designed to be compatible, and shared several sourceooks
 
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