WFRP (all editions & Zweihänder) Chatty Thread

Skywalker

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In 1st edition WFRP, the rules assumed you were using minis, with the combat chapter using diagrams to illustrate their use,
It also flavoured much of the magic. I remember there being a high level spell called Invisible Bridge that seemed to be almost entirely aimed at mass combat.
 

Stevethulhu

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It also flavoured much of the magic. I remember there being a high level spell called Invisible Bridge that seemed to be almost entirely aimed at mass combat.
Most of the direct damage spells attack a random number of minis/targets. And the Summonners of various types can call up LARGE numbers of things. MInis are a part of it, for sure.
 

Torque2100

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I really, really want to run a Zweihander campaign based on Warhammer Fantasy post Storm of Chaos. I happen to really like Zweihander. To me it's the true successor to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and leagues better than WHFRP 4th edition in my opinion. Zweihander being a Retroclone frees it from tradition and allows so many Quality of Life improvements over WHFRP, in particular ditching the Wounds system from 2nd edition on which can lead to Hit Point Bloat. I might even keep Zweihander's spin on classic Warhammer baddies like the Orc spores creating new orc by infecting humans.

I'm tempted to try to run Thousand Thrones, but from what I've heard Enemy Within is also pretty awesome to.
 

Torque2100

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What I'd really like to see from Zweihander is a new campaign setting entirely. I think there's a lot that could be done there.
I absolutely agree. I really want to see the implied campaign setting fleshed out more. Daniel clearly has some ideas for this world which seems to be a hybrid of the Warhammer Fantasy Old World we all know and love with the Continent of Andzrej Sapkowski's Witcher.
 

David Johansen

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huh...I actually have a setting that would probably fit Zweilhander well. Not much of an elves and dwarves thing but the tone and general technology would fit. Well, The Crucible and the Chalice has age of reason technology with vampires as an oppressed migrant minority, and talking bears, really. It'd probably need some elements toned down as I wrote it as a setting that you couldn't discuss on rpg.net without getting banned. So, it's got some problematic stuff, but that's what makes it so dark, so you'd probably want to leave some parts of it implied but open to speculation.
 

Torque2100

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I absolutely agree. I really want to see the implied campaign setting fleshed out more. Daniel clearly has some ideas for this world which seems to be a hybrid of the Warhammer Fantasy Old World we all know and love with the Continent of Andzrej Sapkowski's Witcher as well as some really unique original ideas.

I also love how Zweihander isn't afraid to go full bore into the really fucked up sexual horror elements that existed in earlier editions of Warhammer. Warhammer has always had a heavy influence from Heavy Metal culture and heavy metal has always been about being transgressive.
 

Skywalker

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I really want to see Colonial Gothic, Peacemaker, and Tetsubo for Zweihander to be released. Seeing the WFRP ruleset applies to westerns and samurai stories would be so good.

And Dark Astral as a full book too.
 

Skywalker

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I heard about the original authors dropping out. They are still looking to develop an RPG in that era though.
 

The Convenient Skill

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I absolutely love the WFRP 1e setting. It's the first 'world' I grew up with (well, maybe Allansia and Sommerlund but they were quite fragmented), and it fits a lot of my preferences for down to earth gaming.

As 2e came out I was out of the hobby, having moved away from my diehard Warhammer friends, so it completely passed me by. The whole Storm of Chaos was a tragedy in my eyes, add in an anachronistic Bretonnia and 2e is not something I've ever felt like picking up.

I've also not picked up Zweihander because as I've got older I've moved away from heavier systems generally, and although I could easily see myself in a WFRP campaign again I don't think I'd use any of these.

I'd actually use Advanced HeroQuest. This is a generally unheard of gem (IMO), the 'big brother' of Hasbro/GWs HeroQuest, it was an attempt to create a WFB/WFRP/boardgame hybrid. What it did was take the attribute array of WFB/WFRP(ish) and a d12 and make a game out of them. It truly is WFRP-light.

It did have some innovations, an opposed melee system in particular, whereby equally matched opponents had a 50/50 chance of each other, whether they were both super skilled or super inept. It also had some problems, Damage Dice were a bit clunky, and it WAS designed as a boardgame, so is easily dismissed as one, but one look at the character sheet easily identifies it as a WFB/WFRP 'clone'. All it really missed was the career system & Fellowship (which is quite a big miss, but you could add those elements back in easily).

Magic was based on the College system, but it was simple, and I never had a magic user in any WFRP campaign I was in, so it wasn't a miss in eyes.
 

Ladybird

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I also love how Zweihander isn't afraid to go full bore into the really fucked up sexual horror elements that existed in earlier editions of Warhammer. Warhammer has always had a heavy influence from Heavy Metal culture and heavy metal has always been about being transgressive.
I'm kinda bored how Slaanesh just goes for "BDSM" all the time when Gluttony, Greed, and Sloth aren't really touched on (Khorne does Wrath, Tzeentch does Envy, Nurgle does his own thing, and they all hit on Pride in different ways). Gluttony in particular is something that probably has a lot of potential for daemons, or daemons which steal bits of you as you fight them, and a Slaaneshi assassin who will only make the perfect kill sounds like a fun adversary, as two ideas from the top of my head.

Admittedly, I think making a wargame unit based around Sloth would be difficult (An aura debuff effect on the enemy, which they can solve using violence at the cost of the effect temporarily increasing?) but the rest could be done.
 

Baeraad

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I'm kinda bored how Slaanesh just goes for "BDSM" all the time when Gluttony, Greed, and Sloth aren't really touched on (Khorne does Wrath, Tzeentch does Envy, Nurgle does his own thing, and they all hit on Pride in different ways). Gluttony in particular is something that probably has a lot of potential for daemons, or daemons which steal bits of you as you fight them, and a Slaaneshi assassin who will only make the perfect kill sounds like a fun adversary, as two ideas from the top of my head.

Admittedly, I think making a wargame unit based around Sloth would be difficult (An aura debuff effect on the enemy, which they can solve using violence at the cost of the effect temporarily increasing?) but the rest could be done.
Are you familiar with the Lazy Marines? :grin:

Seriously, I don't know, I never got the impression that W40K daemons were based on Christian ideas of sin per se. More so on four different primal fears - of huge angry things that want to kill you, of situations that are too large and complicated for you to understand or control, of sickness and decay, and, yes, of sexuality and the ways it can be turned against you. Chaos always felt to me like the embodiment of those weird dreams you have when you're running a fever, which I think is more interesting than just having them come straight out of Dante's Inferno like the demons in so many other settings.
 

Simlasa

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Are you familiar with the Lazy Marines? :grin:

Seriously, I don't know, I never got the impression that W40K daemons were based on Christian ideas of sin per se. More so on four different primal fears - of huge angry things that want to kill you, of situations that are too large and complicated for you to understand or control, of sickness and decay, and, yes, of sexuality and the ways it can be turned against you.
Yeah, they're not representative of 'sins'. In the original chaos books the chaos powers were not entirely negative impulses... like Khorne was bloodlust but also valor, Nurgle is tied up with natural cycles of decay, but also perseverance against adversity.
 

Ladybird

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Seriously, I don't know, I never got the impression that W40K daemons were based on Christian ideas of sin per se. More so on four different primal fears - of huge angry things that want to kill you, of situations that are too large and complicated for you to understand or control, of sickness and decay, and, yes, of sexuality and the ways it can be turned against you. Chaos always felt to me like the embodiment of those weird dreams you have when you're running a fever, which I think is more interesting than just having them come straight out of Dante's Inferno like the demons in so many other settings.
I tend to think of Slaanesh more as "the dangers of giving in to temptation" than just "sexuality turned against you"; no matter what your depravity of choice is, Slaanesh should have something special that can turn your head.

They touch on excess of sensation in a few bits of Slaanesh lore - Noise Marines, frex, or Dechala and her mutants - and Lucius touches on the dangers of pride. But Slaanesh still feels, to me, like the god with the most untapped horror potential, the one where you could just challenge the designers and writers "do your worst".

(I do miss the "positive sides" representation of early chaos, it helped make turning to them feel more like a choice that someone could justify to themselves based on good intentions.)
 

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They touch on excess of sensation in a few bits of Slaanesh lore - Noise Marines, frex, or Dechala and her mutants - and Lucius touches on the dangers of pride. But Slaanesh still feels, to me, like the god with the most untapped horror potential, the one where you could just challenge the designers and writers "do your worst".
Except that they want to sell their mini-game to pre-teen boys (and girls?)... so it's all been simplified and is merely a bit 'naughty'.
I wonder about similarities between the representation of Slaanesh and Hellraiser's 'Cenobites' (ignoring most of the movies)... both being British creations, both groups devoted to desire and sensation, not just sex, and demonstrating ambiguous morality. For a wargame they are required to be just an outlandish enemy army, but in the RPG they could be explored in much more subtle, and less overtly militaristic, ways.
 
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CRKrueger

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I tend to think of Slaanesh more as "the dangers of giving in to temptation" than just "sexuality turned against you"; no matter what your depravity of choice is, Slaanesh should have something special that can turn your head.

They touch on excess of sensation in a few bits of Slaanesh lore - Noise Marines, frex, or Dechala and her mutants - and Lucius touches on the dangers of pride. But Slaanesh still feels, to me, like the god with the most untapped horror potential, the one where you could just challenge the designers and writers "do your worst".

(I do miss the "positive sides" representation of early chaos, it helped make turning to them feel more like a choice that someone could justify to themselves based on good intentions.)
Yeah Slaanesh is a real Horror Show...
  • The Hellraiser Cenobites.
  • Many sick Serial Killers (especially the ones who wish to transform their victims into some form of art, or use their victims in art, like the guy from “Perfume”).
  • The person who wrote “The Yellow Sign” or made the film from John Carpenters’ “Cigarette Burns”.
  • People addicted to anything.
  • The videotape from The Ring.
All Slaaneshi stuff. Sex and excess is just the easiest way to get people in, and open them up to excess of the body. Corruption of the mind and ultimately soul is the real goal, and for that nipplerings and a strap-on aren’t gonna do it.
The most common, and by comparison harmless, Slaaneshi Cults are the ones with dozens of worshippers engaging in orgies. The dangerous ones are like the Cabal of three tailors in Altdorf, Talabheim and Middenheim who attempt to outdo each other by making items for the nobility of the softest and most supple skin or the Virtuoso Composer who seeks to create a Symphony based on an extrapolation of the Golden Ratio that will unlock the Doors of Perception in the listener, or the Mathematical Genius who seeks to find the proof for an Anti-Fibonacci Sequence. Basically, the more abstract and theoretical, the closer you get to Exterminatus once the Grey Knights arrive.
 

TristramEvans

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Khorne - Wrath
Tzeentch - Pride & Envy
Nurgle - Gluttony & Sloth
Slaanesh - Lust & Greed
 

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Khorne - Wrath
Tzeentch - Pride & Envy
Nurgle - Gluttony & Sloth
Slaanesh - Lust & Greed
Meh, I'd prefer to avoid the whole concept of 'sins' (and good vs. evil) and stick to them being reflections borne of actual human passions/obsessions/desires, both good and bad.
 

Stevethulhu

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funny you think that, since he was the only one named for a real god
Can you give any citations for that? It's the first time in some 30 years I've heard anyone say Nurgle is anything other than a GW creation.

I've got a thing for GW and their sources. God forbid that Michael Moorcock should ever assert his intellectual property rights.
 

TristramEvans

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Meh, I'd prefer to avoid the whole concept of 'sins' (and good vs. evil) and stick to them being reflections borne of actual human passions/obsessions/desires, both good and bad.
well, that's the reality of the setting, but since someone brought up how they map to judeo-Xian sins, I gave my interpretation.

In reality (well the reality of the Warhammer world), they arent anything to do with sins at all, they are essential expressions of natures, and the 4 main chaos gods are only a handful among hundreds of chaos gods, only significant because they are interested in humanity, most Chaos gods probably arent even aware of humanity's existence

And then there's Malal...
 

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Can you give any citations for that? It's the first time in some 30 years I've heard anyone say Nurgle is anything other than a GW creation.

I've got a thing for GW and their sources. God forbid that Michael Moorcock should ever assert his intellectual property rights.
"Nergal" is a mesopotamian god of war, death, and destruction. It's not identical but it's close enough and obscure enough that one of the original set of GW writers re-purposing it seems plausible.
 

TristramEvans

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Isn't he non canon now?
he is still referenced in the rulebooks occasionaly just by the name "Malice" instead of Malal

malal-fire-raptor_1_orig.jpg

and I have my own theories on him...

 

Stevethulhu

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he is still referenced in the rulebooks occasionaly just by the name "Malice" instead of Malal

View attachment 19384

and I have my own theories on him...

Mostly, I think GW change stuff so they can sell it to you again.

Though I'm quite tempted to try and get a Warhamster 1e game running at some point. I'm just lacking a hook to hang it on
 

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CRKrueger

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Khorne - Wrath
Tzeentch - Pride & Envy
Nurgle - Gluttony & Sloth
Slaanesh - Lust & Greed
Hmm. Gluttony might be more Slaanesh. The desire to consume obsessively. The transgression against society for the sake of self-indulgence.

Greed might be more Nurgle. The selfishness to want to cling to life when all others die. Wanting to hang on to what’s yours so tightly that you pray to Nurgle for the plague to pass you by. “Please, not this house...take the Johnsons instead.”

Sloth I have to think.
 

TristramEvans

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Hmm. Gluttony might be more Slaanesh. The desire to consume obsessively. The transgression against society for the sake of self-indulgence.

Greed might be more Nurgle. The selfishness to want to cling to life when all others die. Wanting to hang on to what’s yours so tightly that you pray to Nurgle for the plague to pass you by. “Please, not this house...take the Johnsons instead.”

Sloth I have to think.
lol, have you SEEN Nurgle?

Nurgle.jpg

A bunch of big fat guys who have one of the slowest movement rates in the game....
 

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In 40K they have Fabius Bile, a traitor marine, who feeds Slaanesh through his obsessions of seeking a perfect human race that involves breeding entire planets of people and also funnily his uncompromising atheism.
 

Simlasa

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Sloth I have to think.
Sloth has an element of indifference... there's not going to be an army, there won't even be cult meetings because no one ever shows up. Likewise, whichever god represents sloth is getting no worship or sacrifices... just more nothing. If I had to pick one it would be Slaanesh, for the pleasure of sleeping in, goofing off, avoiding responsibility and always being late... if you even show up at all. Self-destructive pleasures of the moment.
 

Simlasa

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lol, have you SEEN Nurgle?
A bunch of big fat guys who have one of the slowest movement rates in the game....
I took the Nurgle folks to be fat because they were bloateed full of bile/parasites/pus... not because they ate too much fast food.
 

Stevethulhu

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Sloth has an element of indifference... there's not going to be an army, there won't even be cult meetings because no one ever shows up. Likewise, whichever god represents sloth is getting no worship or sacrifices... just more nothing. If I had to pick one it would be Slaanesh, for the pleasure of sleeping in, goofing off, avoiding responsibility and always being late... if you even show up at all. Self-destructive pleasures of the moment.
Sloth is more than goofing off. It's the choice to do nothing. Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow?

It isn't apathy. It isn't particularly lazy. But it is doing no more than you absolutely have to do at a given time.
 

TristramEvans

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Sloth has an element of indifference... there's not going to be an army, there won't even be cult meetings because no one ever shows up. Likewise, whichever god represents sloth is getting no worship or sacrifices... just more nothing. If I had to pick one it would be Slaanesh, for the pleasure of sleeping in, goofing off, avoiding responsibility and always being late... if you even show up at all. Self-destructive pleasures of the moment.

But that doesn't describe Slaanesh forces, at all - hyper-kinetic, fast-attacks, bachannalian frenzies
 
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