What do you like that 'everyone' hates?

Gabriel

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Also, I wouldn't go as far as "like" but I don't have any strong antipathy towards Lorraine Williams. (I can't help feeling I'm going to be burnt at the stake for saying that).
Nah. The thing is, as outsiders we've only ever been given a very one sided version of the story. A lot of the tales spread about her have been told by people with very strong motivation to talk shit and/or shunt accusations away from themselves.
 

Tulpa Girl

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[dons abestos suit]

I like My Chemical Romance and (as much to my surprise as anyone else) Barry Manilow, specifically his later, less commercial, more jazz-based stuff.
 

Stevethulhu

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[dons abestos suit]

I like My Chemical Romance and (as much to my surprise as anyone else) Barry Manilow, specifically his later, less commercial, more jazz-based stuff.
If we're going for unpopular music, I like KISS. But I haven't heard enough Nickleback to have an opinion on them.
 

Voros

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Nah. The thing is, as outsiders we've only ever been given a very one sided version of the story. A lot of the tales spread about her have been told by people with very strong motivation to talk shit and/or shunt accusations away from themselves.
And the people who actually worked under her have good to mixed things to say, just like with Gygax: Cook, Breault, Heard. Most of the real complaints from Jeff Grubb were about middle management.
 

Armchair Gamer

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Also, I wouldn't go as far as "like" but I don't have any strong antipathy towards Lorraine Williams. (I can't help feeling I'm going to be burnt at the stake for saying that).
Agreed. I have heard some negative things from people who worked under her, but also some surprisingly positive things (she was apparently very considerate of William W. Connors when it looked like, just after starting at TSR, he was going to have to leave due to family problems).
 

Mankcam

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Ultra Chicken and whatever the Heck Super Grover is? :smile:
Heh heh, the last time I did a major typo like that was our infamous 'Swo' situation, so this could go anywhere with this forum heh heh

'Villains Fowl' could definately become a pretty good slogan for the Anti-Geese extremists here amongst us! :grin:
 
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Baulderstone

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Minion rules. The vitriol and hatred I get for just liking to make my games 'cinematic' (or as close to it) is, frankly, amazing.
Minion rules are great. Whether I use them varies from game to game, but I don't see the point in throwaway NPCs having the same mechanical depth as a PC. Really, you can see all TSR D&D as having an early form of minion rules given that monsters don't have the same mechanics as PCs. Making every goblin as complicated as a PC, while making PCs more complicated than they had ever been before, was D&D 3Es greatest misstep.
 

Stevethulhu

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Minion rules. The vitriol and hatred I get for just liking to make my games 'cinematic' (or as close to it) is, frankly, amazing.
I just don't see sneeze and they die NPCs as cinematic. If you like them, fine. Me, I think they're there simply to suck up dice rolling time.

But each to their own. I don't see the poi t in lecturing people as to why my tastes are superior. I mean, they are, but each to their own.
 

Baulderstone

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I just don't see sneeze and they die NPCs as cinematic. If you like them, fine. Me, I think they're there simply to suck up dice rolling time.

But each to their own. I don't see the poi t in lecturing people as to why my tastes are superior. I mean, they are, but each to their own.
That's not really a fair reflection of mook rules though. Mook rules simplify the running of multiple NPCs, but they don't automatically make them doormats. I can easily stat up a single mook in Savage Worlds that has a decent chance of taking some PCs out.
 

Nexus

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Minion rules. The vitriol and hatred I get for just liking to make my games 'cinematic' (or as close to it) is, frankly, amazing.
I like them. The really fit some moods. Not every mood, but no tool does. I guess for some it rings to close to the dreaded Storygame as does using terms like: genre, plot, theme, etc for rpgs, IME. Like pouring gas on a campfire of ties on some sites about rpgs.
 

Black Leaf

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I like them. The really fit some moods. Not every mood, but no tool does. I guess for some it rings to close to the dreaded Storygame as does using terms like: genre, plot, theme, etc for rpgs, IME. Like pouring gas on a campfire of ties on some sites about rpgs.
I do as well. They aren't for every game, but for something heroic often I don't want town guards to kill characters with a lucky roll.
 

CRKrueger

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Statting up NPCs with less depth than PCs isn't "minion" or "mook" rules. It's how every GM of a crunchy system runs combat and keeps everyone's sanity.

Minion or Mook rules are creating NPCs that are specifically or mechanically weaker than normal in order to emphasize their lack of dramatic importance. They are there to reinforce narrative and cinematic tropes and differentiate themselves from dramatically important NPCs.

Personally, I see no need to hang some hierarchical "Literary Order of Being" sign over every NPC in the world to flag their importance to the story.

Goblins are 1HD, so Weak Goblins have 2 HPs each, average have 4 HPs each, the tough ones have 10 HPs each (full HPs plus Con bonus) and +1 to damage from Str.

It's done, it's easy and completely organic within the system without any 4th wall awareness of their status in the Cinematic Hierarchy.

No need to use Mythras mooks who automatically cave at one wound or whatever. If they're weak, the lack of high Willpower and Endurance will ensure that most of the time you get the same result without declaring their status. Then when you get that crazy sonofabitch that fought like a devil to the end, you get a real, organic tale for your PCs to tell that's way more interesting than plowing through X number of Richelieu's stooges.

Obviously YMMV.
 

Stevethulhu

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Statting up NPCs with less depth than PCs isn't "minion" or "mook" rules. It's how every GM of a crunchy system runs combat and keeps everyone's sanity.

Minion or Mook rules are creating NPCs that are specifically or mechanically weaker than normal in order to emphasize their lack of dramatic importance. They are there to reinforce narrative and cinematic tropes and differentiate themselves from dramatically important NPCs.

Personally, I see no need to hang some hierarchical "Literary Order of Being" sign over every NPC in the world to flag their importance to the story.

Goblins are 1HD, so Weak Goblins have 2 HPs each, average have 4 HPs each, the tough ones have 10 HPs each (full HPs plus Con bonus) and +1 to damage from Str.

It's done, it's easy and completely organic within the system without any 4th wall awareness of their status in the Cinematic Hierarchy.

No need to use Mythras mooks who automatically cave at one wound or whatever. If they're weak, the lack of high Willpower and Endurance will ensure that most of the time you get the same result without declaring their status. Then when you get that crazy sonofabitch that fought like a devil to the end, you get a real, organic tale for your PCs to tell that's way more interesting than plowing through X number of Richelieu's stooges.

Obviously YMMV.
That's exactly how I feel. Rather than having something like the MInions from 4th ed D&D, or whatever they were called in Seventh Sea, just have NPCs. It may seem 'heroic' or 'cinematic' from a certain perspective to mow through hordes of low hit point enemies. But to me, it's just rolling dice for no purpose.
 

Simlasa

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Statting up NPCs with less depth than PCs isn't "minion" or "mook" rules. It's how every GM of a crunchy system runs combat and keeps everyone's sanity.
Agreed. 'Mooks', to me, are cardboard cutouts to make the PCs feel powerful when they knock them over... they're there to fall down. Zero excitement in it for me.
Like a 'participation award' just for showing up.

Just having a less detailed NPC doesn't make it a 'mook'.
 

Baulderstone

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Agreed. 'Mooks', to me, are cardboard cutouts to make the PCs feel powerful when they knock them over... they're there to fall down. Zero excitement in it for me.
Like a 'participation award' just for showing up.

Just having a less detailed NPC doesn't make it a 'mook'.
And yet, I've run plenty of combats using mook rules where the players were challenged if not defeated. Any game I own with mook rules allows those mooks to still have challenging stats, even if they don't require tracking wounds or HP. One of my first sessions of Savage Worlds ended with a TPK against Extras.

I have no issue with people not liking or using mook rules, but the idea that using mooks is an auto-win for players just isn't the case in actual play.
 

Necrozius

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Minion rules. The vitriol and hatred I get for just liking to make my games 'cinematic' (or as close to it) is, frankly, amazing.
If people hate you for this, then I'll take a few slings and arrows too because I love minion (aka, "mook") rules and use them all the time.
 

Simlasa

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Any game I own with mook rules allows those mooks to still have challenging stats, even if they don't require tracking wounds or HP.
Maybe it's just my perception, and experience of GMs who like to pull their punches 'for the sake of the story'... but when I see/hear 'mook' I take it as a gimme to reinforce genre.
That vs. NPCs/creatures that are serious threats in natural quantities... like wolves, rats, nameless thugs in a hideout.
So it might just come down to how a GM uses them that defines 'mook' for me.
 

Baulderstone

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Maybe it's just my perception, and experience of GMs who like to pull their punches 'for the sake of the story'... but when I see/hear 'mook' I take it as a gimme to reinforce genre.
That vs. NPCs/creatures that are serious threats in natural quantities... like wolves, rats, nameless thugs in a hideout.
I won't deny that it can be used to reinforce genre, but my unscientific observation is that more people use mook rules to simplify tracking enemies than for genre reasons.

I guess it comes down to the difference between the idea behind a mechanic and what can be done with the mechanic. The same mook rule that was designed to create disposable, pushover enemies can be used to make threatening but simple enemies.

And I get some people wanting PCs and NPCs always using the same mechanics. I want that myself in some games that I run, but sometimes I want mook rules. I'm defending mook rules, but that doesn't mean I think they are absolute right way to do things.
 

Chris Brady

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Part of the misunderstanding as I see it, when it comes to mook/minion rules is the idea that they are not dangerous. Singly, sure, you can put down lesser fighters in a blow or two, but get a group of them together and the players' day is going to be miserable.

My personal benchmark with it comes to Fantasy games, like D&D and Fantasy Hero is 3. A Player Character should be able to handle three lesser foes, maybe they get hit or tagged a couple times, but they should have a reasonably good chance to beat them.

Superhero games vary in consistency. I once had my 'Nightwing' style character once take on like 15 Ninja's in Mutants and Masterminds, nearly got beat down twice, but luckily (and it was luck, the RNGods were with me that day) the character got the rolls needed to survive it. In another game, I had a Brick style get taken out by a power house mook who became a Named character (to use Feng Shui terminology) just for that act alone. I had fun with that rivalry.
 

Ladybird

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Superhero games vary in consistency. I once had my 'Nightwing' style character once take on like 15 Ninja's in Mutants and Masterminds, nearly got beat down twice, but luckily (and it was luck, the RNGods were with me that day) the character got the rolls needed to survive it. In another game, I had a Brick style get taken out by a power house mook who became a Named character (to use Feng Shui terminology) just for that act alone. I had fun with that rivalry.
I was once in a Feng Shui game with a player who made the mistake of giving a mook a name... which, of course, meant he got a sudden power boost.
 

Simlasa

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I guess it comes down to the difference between the idea behind a mechanic and what can be done with the mechanic. The same mook rule that was designed to create disposable, pushover enemies can be used to make threatening but simple enemies.
It seems like 'mook' rules I've seen generally present it as genre-emulation (ex. superhero games), rather than labor-saving. Do you tell the Players when they are fighting 'mooks'? I've seen people suggest that... so PCs won't use valuable resources in 'less important battles'.
 

Mankcam

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A typo. Sure it was.
Ok, you got me. I'm really a paid Agitator trying to stir up trouble.

But by who, you ask?
And how deep does this go?
And why are there so many goddam Australian Agents, (sorry, typo, I meant to say Actors) in Hollywood these days?
And how does New Zealand figure in all these?

This goes all the way to the top, and then beyond that. You'ld be best to refrain from your investigations now

heh heh :grin:
 
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Mankcam

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On the whole Mooks rule concept, I think if used in pulpy cinematic games that have a big narrative focus, then they are a really useful way of placing emphasis on certain NPCs.

In games with heavier simulation emphasis, I don't think they work well as stats need to be more objective - if an NPC is a pushover it is because they have weaker stats.

As such I don't think Mook rules work all that well in systems like Mythras, but I'm fine with them in games like Fate.

(PS: I try not to use GNS game design terms too much, but occasionally they can be useful as brief descriptors)
 

TristramEvans

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I thought of one...it's not a matter of everybody hating, I think, but I have seen a very vocal pushback against charts in my lifetime, since about the 90's. For some reason charts are associated with excessive crunch. Admittedly more than one or two charts to resolve a single roll pushes it, but a single, well-organized chart I often find a thing of beauty. As quick to read as the result of a dice roll, and the ability to provide a ton of information in a manner that is clearly understandable and smoothly executed.
 

Ladybird

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I thought of one...it's not a matter of everybody hating, I think, but I have seen a very vocal pushback against charts in my lifetime, since about the 90's. For some reason charts are associated with excessive crunch. Admittedly more than one or two charts to resolve a single roll pushes it, but a single, well-organized chart I often find a thing of beauty. As quick to read as the result of a dice roll, and the ability to provide a ton of information in a manner that is clearly understandable and smoothly executed.
I find looking things up on them to sometimes slow things down, and generally they can't easily be summarized to fit on a character sheet, so it's another page that you need to have generally visible or accessible. The stunt charts in the AGE system, for example, just slow the game to a crawl in my experience (But there's also an element of analysis paralysis there).

I'm not opposed to them, I think they're a great solution sometimes for cutting down on maths (I like things that cut down on the amount of maths - I'd rather compare a number than do a sum), but I think you have to be selective in when to use them.
 

Chris Brady

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Objectively true. Too many Who fans on my friendslist is a big part of the reason I gave up Facebook.

Let! *smack* People! *smack* Enjoy things! *SMACK!*
The most popular science fiction show on the planet, and everyone hates it? Sure.
 

Baulderstone

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It seems like 'mook' rules I've seen generally present it as genre-emulation (ex. superhero games), rather than labor-saving. Do you tell the Players when they are fighting 'mooks'? I've seen people suggest that... so PCs won't use valuable resources in 'less important battles'.
I don't, but as my mook battles aren't necessarily easier, I don't they would be wasting resources.

*snort* You believe in New Zealand? Man, you'll believe anything the New World Order puts on TV, won't you?

Having flown back and forth between the US and Australia many times, it always pisses me off the way the pilots claim to be stopping in "Auckland" so they can sneak out of the plane for a smoke break. It adds like an hour or so onto the flight, and they aren't fooling anyone.
 
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Mankcam

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*snort* You believe in New Zealand? Man, you'll believe anything the New World Order puts on TV, won't you?

Not only has NZ disappeared, there's no Tasmania on that map as well!

This conspiracy runs deep
:grin:
 
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Baulderstone

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Not only has NZ disappeared, there's no Tasmania on that map as well!

This conspiracy runs deep
:grin:
Tasmania too? My parents claimed to be there last month, and they were showing me pictures from there over Memorial Day weekend. It seems they are a part of the conspiracy, and it is time I removed them from my circle of trust.
 
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