What do you like that 'everyone' hates?

[daniel_ream]

Honestly no variant of Cortex really does it for me, even though one of my favourite characters comes from a C+ game, but I can absolutely see why it would work for any sort of action-drama series.

The different Cortex+ games are wildly different from each other. They share some roll-and-keep dice mechanics, but aside from that Smallville is as different from MHR as, say, In a Wicked Age is from D&D.

I've stuck with the Cortex+ system longer than most other indie darlings. It seems to hit a sweet spot for my players in terms of crunch while still being a crypto-storygame.

 

[Nexus]

According to Cam Banks this is true, but it's also irrelevant: the base Operations Manual has a character generation system. It just isn't a D&D or Champions-style one, and people couldn't seem to grasp that "game balance" is handled by the core mechanics rather than the numbers on a datafile.

As I recall, the character generation system was make something up and write it down not what generally comes to mind when you think 'system', more like the character modelling method in Classic Marvel. I didn't play MHRP enough to comment on balance. It just wasn't a good fit for my group for a few reasons but I always thought we were in the minority that way.

 

[Nexus]

I know just as with FASERIP, Marvel insisted on no chargen system. Grubb and Winters had to fight tooth and nail to get one in the game.

Wow, I hadn't heard that. But I heard things like the insisted an individually licencing each character, an incredible tight creative control over content, more returns than were likely from an rpg and such.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Honestly, Marvel sounds like a nightmare to deal with as far as the RPG field. I've never heard good stories come out of anyone who got the license.

 

[daniel_ream]

As I recall, the character generation system was make something up and write it down not what generally comes to mind when you think 'system', more like the character modelling method in Classic Marvel.

That's pretty much it. But there's the thing: that actually works. That is literally all the character "generation" "system" you need. Unlike MSH, though, putting higher numbers in your datafile does not mean your character is "more powerful" or "unbalanced"[1]. The in-play mechanics balance characters with lower dice values against characters with higher ones. It's what allows you to have Wasp and Thor on the same team and have that actually work.



[1] There are a couple of corner cases you have to be careful of. You have to keep an eye on the size of the dice pool, as consistently having more dice to roll can make a character more effective in ways that aren't immediately obvious. In practice, this means only giving characters one or two Power Sets, or for characters like Cyclops adding a bunch of SFX that give him a decent-sized dice pool even though he only has a single d8 Power Trait.

 

[Ladybird]

The different Cortex+ games are wildly different from each other. They share some roll-and-keep dice mechanics, but aside from that Smallville is as different from MHR as, say, In a Wicked Age is from D&D.

I've stuck with the Cortex+ system longer than most other indie darlings. It seems to hit a sweet spot for my players in terms of crunch while still being a crypto-storygame.

I've played Heroic and Action games, and we have a local GM who really likes his C+ hacks so we've used most of the Drama mechanics over time too. I get why people like it, and I wouldn't turn down a game just because of it, I just think there's slightly too much crunch for a crypto-storygame.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I've played Heroic and Action games, and we have a local GM who really likes his C+ hacks so we've used most of the Drama mechanics over time too. I get why people like it, and I wouldn't turn down a game just because of it, I just think there's slightly too much crunch for a crypto-storygame.

I don't get why Cortex is a secret story game.

 

[AsenRG]

I don't get why Cortex is a secret story game.

You're right. I doubt anyone considers this a secret!

 

[Nexus]

That's pretty much it. But there's the thing: that actually works. That is literally all the character "generation" "system" you need. Unlike MSH, though, putting higher numbers in your datafile does not mean your character is "more powerful" or "unbalanced"[1]. The in-play mechanics balance characters with lower dice values against characters with higher ones. It's what allows you to have Wasp and Thor on the same team and have that actually work.



[1] There are a couple of corner cases you have to be careful of. You have to keep an eye on the size of the dice pool, as consistently having more dice to roll can make a character more effective in ways that aren't immediately obvious. In practice, this means only giving characters one or two Power Sets, or for characters like Cyclops adding a bunch of SFX that give him a decent-sized dice pool even though he only has a single d8 Power Trait.

We didn't play it a great deal, perhaps we were doing it incorrectly but it didn't seem to work that well in that regard. Some characters were definitely weaker than other, but as you have more experience I'll accept your evaluation. Still, there were other issues with the system and its 'feel' that didn't really work for us. But I understand that it did for quite a few folks.

Like has been said elsewhere, nothing is going to be perfect for everyone.

 

[Nexus]

I don't get why Cortex is a secret story game.

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

 

[Baulderstone]

I'm fine with modeling or limited character generation in a Marvel game. Marvel characters are iconic enough that I'd be happy just picking one up and playing one.

As a DramaSystem fan, I wasn't crazy about the Drama version of Cortex+. I can see the appeal, but it seemed to have a lot of mechanics going at the points that I'd really want to focused on the roleplaying. I prefer DramaSystem as the system is there to set up interesting conflicts that you roleplay out.

On the other hand, the Marvel version of Cortex+ looks fun. It's something I'd like to try some time. It is a shame the line died so quickly.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I keep thinking about using Cortex Prime to do Mecha. Basically using the Marvel setup, and having the "mecha" just be the super powers part of the character sheet.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Baulderstone I've not heard of DramaSystem, what would be your go to game in that system for someone to check it out?

 

[Baulderstone]

Baulderstone I've not heard of DramaSystem, what would be your go to game in that system for someone to check it out?

It is the system for Robin Laws' game Hillfolk, which has the default setting of playing in an iron age raiding tribe. That's deceptive though as the game also contains many other settings that are ready to play including mafia families, colonists on alien world and a family of reclusive Lovecraftian misfits along the lines of Whateleys. There is a supplement that adds many more Series Pitches.

I will add, you really need at least four players plus a GM for the game to work properly. It is a very approachable game, and I have run it for people from all kinds of gaming backgrounds with success.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I'll be honest, I just love seeing new design ideas and systems. It's why I used to have a 1000 plus book collection before realizing I needed to downsize it to "things I would actually run" before my wife begrudged the space it + my board game collection was taking up.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

I'm not sure myself. I figure it's different branches of the same tree?

 

[Nexus]

I'm fine with modeling or limited character generation in a Marvel game. Marvel characters are iconic enough that I'd be happy just picking one up and playing one.

It was a bad fit for us as we enjoy playing/creating out own characters not published ones. Different strokes.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

I don't know Cortex but my rough definitions are as follows. (Note that I'm of the view that all of these are variants on RPGs, none of them are "not RPGs").

Trad RPG - A vague term I don't like much but don't have anything better. Anything where the players make all decisions as their characters from a first person perspective. Rules are there to adjucate the results of character actions rather than to drive the story along per se. And there aren't "meta" rules outside of that, although we can insert the standard argument about fate points here.

Examples - Dungeons & Dragons, Vampre the Masquerade

Narrative RPG - These generally keep a strong element of the narrative approach to characters, but they add a more meta third person perspective to that. As well as making decisions as their character, players also take on the role of a director or author. That especially comes through when it comes to character failure. In a trad RPG, you'd only act in a way that would fail if you felt it was true to rping your character. In a Narrative RPG it's also possible you'd do so for the sake of drama and story. They frequently have mechanics there to drive story that have no real purpose as far as simulation or task resolution are concerned.

Examples - Blades in the Dark, Houses of the Blooded

Storygames - Here the third person perspective becomes heavily dominant. You're controlling your character, not playing them. The whole point is to make a good story and the mechanics are there to faciliate that. Heavily so; most actual storygames have mechanical ways of determining when the end game starts and how its resolved when it does.

Examples - My Life With Master, Perfect Unrevised

With all of these, I've probably oversimplified. It's a rule of thumb and doesn't take into account things like how much control players are given over the game world. Also worth mentioning I see these as descriptions of trends, not hard and fast rules. So there's always going to be grey areas and subjectivity.

 

[daniel_ream]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

Human beings will divide themselves into tribes on the flimsiest of pretexts, and defend those pretexts to the death.

As a DramaSystem fan, I wasn't crazy about the Drama version of Cortex+. I can see the appeal, but it seemed to have a lot of mechanics going at the points that I'd really want to focused on the roleplaying. I prefer DramaSystem as the system is there to set up interesting conflicts that you roleplay out.

In much the same way that MHR is the Cortex+ version of Fate, Smallville is the Cortex+ version of DramaSystem. I think MHR does Fate better than Fate does, but DramaSystem is a much more refined version of what Smallville is trying to do. I've stolen a lot of concepts from DramaSystem.

It was a bad fit for us as we enjoy playing/creating out own characters not published ones. Different strokes.
[...]
We didn't play it a great deal, perhaps we were doing it incorrectly but it didn't seem to work that well in that regard. Some characters were definitely weaker than others

This thread isn't the place for it but if you want to start a new thread I can break it down for you.

 

[TristramEvans]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

That's the main issue: that people pursuing an agenda have muddied any sort of meaningful definition that could serve any purpose besides tribalism. That sadly seems to be the way of almost any RPG terminology (and considering who we are obviously all talking about, it's the height of hypocrisy).

If I were to use the term "storygame" my definition would be simply "a game where the rules enforce a third-person authorial perspective of the game events". The "enforce" part is important, because ANY RPG can be played from an authorial perspective, up to and including Dungeons & Dragons in every one of it's editions going back to OD&D. Moreover, the vast majority of games include a mix of rules that include some that only make sense from a third person perspective on the part of the player, once again including D&D. I don't call these hybrids, because if everything is something, then nothing is. A game can also pitch a narrative approach or intent without mechanically enforcing that (hence White Wolf's Storyteller system).

 

[Séadna]

A game can also pitch a narrative approach or intent without mechanically enforcing that (hence White Wolf's Storyteller system).

Especially heading into the CoD this was an issue with these games. Rules wise they're crunch heavy and combat oriented, the full CoD is like GURPS. However the rulebooks describe heavily narrative play with scenes, themes, arc resolution, etc when nothing really supports that except minor tagged on elements.

 

[AsenRG]

Moreover, the vast majority of games include a mix of rules that include some that only make sense from a third person perspective on the part of the player, once again including D&D. I don't call these hybrids, because if everything is something, then nothing is.

Really, "the vast majority"?
I mean, what would those rules be in RQ2? How about Mongoose Traveller 1e/Cepheus, Maelstrom or Flashing Blades? These games don't even have Fate points...
Admittedly, I'm probably needlessly pedantic, but it's late and I'm too tired to delete a post I've just written!

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Especially heading into the CoD this was an issue with these games. Rules wise they're crunch heavy and combat oriented, the full CoD is like GURPS. However the rulebooks describe heavily narrative play with scenes, themes, arc resolution, etc when nothing really supports that except minor tagged on elements.

Yeah, it's why I consider something like VTM a trad RPG rather than a hybrid or a narrative rpg. All the stuff about "scenes" and "storytellers" was just different jargon. It didn't actually play any differently.

 

[Brock Savage]

Yeah, it's why I consider something like VTM a trad RPG rather than a hybrid or a narrative rpg. All the stuff about "scenes" and "storytellers" was just different jargon. It didn't actually play any differently.

I want to be clear that you are absolutely right, of course.

Still when I think of "traditional gaming" it's hard for me not to think of the dark days of adversarial Viking Hat DMs, killer dungeons, and arbitrary "rocks fall, everyone dies" events. It sucked but there was nothing else going on that I knew of when I was a kid in the 80's. When I discovered stuff like Call of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk and Vampire they seemed revolutionary (even though they are all more or less the same thing)

Now it's more than 30 years later and I've come full circle running tense OSR dungeon crawls for a younger generation. Life is funny that way.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I want to be clear that you are absolutely right, of course.

Still when I think of "traditional gaming" it's hard for me not to think of the dark days of adversarial Viking Hat DMs, killer dungeons, and arbitrary "rocks fall, everyone dies" events. It sucked but there was nothing else going on that I knew of when I was a kid in the 80's. When I discovered stuff like Call of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk and Vampire they seemed revolutionary (even though they are all more or less the same thing)

Now it's more than 30 years later and I've come full circle running tense OSR dungeon crawls for a younger generation. Life is funny that way.

The more I hear about other people's rping as kids the more I come to realise that my mate Dean was an amazing GM, especially for a group of teenagers.

None of that, apart from maybe a bit of viking hatting. I remember stuff like one of the other players getting away with claiming to be a long lost noble line of the Empire because he'd put work into setting the con up.

 

[Ladybird]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

Flippant comment : If there are rules for punching someone's girlfriend, it's probably a traditional RPG. If there are rules for punching someone in the girlfriend, it's probably a story game.

If you pause play to look up the Standard Action Resolution Chart : Advanced Secondary Mechanic to say who wins, it's probably a traditional RPG. If you pause play for a game of yahtzee to say who wins, it's probably a storygame.

The lines are fuzzy and blurry, especially as the two branches (If you look at them that way) are continually merging and separating as they pinch ideas from each other.

 

[TristramEvans]

Really, "the vast majority"?
I mean, what would those rules be in RQ2? How about Mongoose Traveller 1e/Cepheus, Maelstrom or Flashing Blades? These games don't even have Fate points...
Admittedly, I'm probably needlessly pedantic, but it's late and I'm too tired to delete a post I've just written!

I don't know enough about those games to answer but I would say it would take ALOT more than 4 games to make me change my mind on "the vast majority. ;)

But we both know the rabbit hole this subject leads down, I doubt there's such a thing as a group of 3 or more posters that will totally agree about this or where the lines are drawn. That's basically why I stopped using the term "storygame" a while back. In the end, none of this affects my gaming.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I don't know enough about those games to answer but I would say it would take ALOT more than 4 games to make me change my mind on "the vast majority. ;)

But we both know the rabbit hole this subject leads down, I doubt there's such a thing as a group of 3 or more posters that will totally agree about this or where the lines are drawn. That's basically why I stopped using the term "storygame" a while back. In the end, none of this affects my gaming.

That's fair enough. I can see that this is all quite pointless if you're playing with the same people all the time, especially people you know.

But honestly, it affects mine at least a bit. Because I need to "pitch" campaigns to the club whenever I'm running so interested players sign up. So differentiating between different types of rpg is very useful for me, even if the lines are a bit vague at times.

I actually suspect the organisers of storygame meetups would feel similarly.

While you're right the actions of Pundy (why aren't people naming him? He's not Voldemort) and his ilk have made this whole discussion more complex then it needed to be. But I still think a way of defining the differences in types of RPG doesn't have to be like that.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Although if you think this is pointless semantics you should have been there for the British "do we call it LRP or LARP" wars? That one lasted about four years and people still take potshots now and again. ;)

 

[Stevethulhu]

Although if you think this is pointless semantics you should have been there for the British "do we call it LRP or LARP" wars? That one lasted about four years and people still take potshots now and again. ;)

At least we don't call it Boffer LARP. Which is a weird term if ever there was one.

 

[Nexus]

Mostly the distinction seems to boil down most of the time to the 'distinction' between Pornography and Erotica. "I know it when I see."

 

[Baulderstone]

One issue I have with many people's definitions of narrative/story game is that many people seem to consider any meta/ooc mechanic as a narrative mechanic. However, I think there are plenty of meta-mechanics that aren't narrative at all. As an example, there is the Preparedness skill in Gumshoe, which you can use to declare you have the item that you need on it. It's most certainly a meta-mechanic, but it isn't there to shape the story. It's just a way to avoid tracking inventory.

My favorite example of the blurry lines between roleplaying games and story games is The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen. . It's a game where everyone takes turns telling stories, with the other players interjecting with "wagers" to manipulate the story. Total story game, right?

Well, the thing is, you are taking on the role of a fictional character that is sitting around a table exchanging these stories. It's actually a game with perfect immersion, where you never need to break character at any point.

If it wasn't for the fact that that the game came out in the '90s, before people got all worked about the topic, I'd suspect that James Wallis invented the game just to mess with people.

 

[TristramEvans]

My favorite example of the blurry lines between roleplaying games and story games is The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen. . It's a game where everyone takes turns telling stories, with the other players interjecting with "wagers" to manipulate the story. Total story game, right?

Well, the thing is, you are taking on the role of a fictional character that is sitting around a table exchanging these stories. It's actually a game with perfect immersion, where you never need to break character at any point.

 

[Brock Savage]

My favorite example of the blurry lines between roleplaying games and story games is The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen. . It's a game where everyone takes turns telling stories, with the other players interjecting with "wagers" to manipulate the story.

I don't have any stakes in this RPG/story game discussion but heartily recommend The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen. Just reading through the book is highly entertaining.

 

[Chris Brady]

Honestly, I've never been certain what the difference is between a role playing game and a story game is, but some people find it very very important that the two not be confused.

There isn't any. And the only reasons I have good experiences with a face to face Cortex Marvel game is because the GM ran it like a superhero game, not a comic book game, and I got to play Wolverine twice. (Also got praised for being a decent one.)