What would Dungeons and Dragons have looked like if Gygax had kept creative control?

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

To be fair, on paper Dragon Dice wasn't a bad idea and I suspect most people at the company wouldn't have thought so.

Designed by Lester W Smith who has a decent pedigree in RPGs. Great reviews, Origins award winner.

Where I think the problems lie were:

At a time where CCGs were the big thing, collectible dice may have been just a little bit too innovative. Not normally a bad thing, but a company in TSR's financial position probably shouldn't be taking risks like that, especially as a primary product.

Similarly, making it a unique setting (rather than Greyhawk or Dragonlance) was likely a mistake.

TSR's financial issues lead to them staking to much on it that lead to overproduction that made the issues worse.

It's worth noting it's still produced today (with more expansions ) which suggests it has the fanbase to support a smaller company at least.

Generally, I think it was a decent product that failed to catch on. We're not talking about something objectively terrible like the ET video game.

 

[T. Foster]

Fair enough. I admit I never played Dragon Dice and for all I know it may well be a decent-to-good game. But I do remember seeing tons of unsold stock in game stores in the 90s (AFAICT nobody - neither the rpg gamers or the CCG gamers - had any interest in it) and wondering how much it must have cost to produce. The game itself may well not have been a bad idea, but the degree to which TSR invested in it almost certainly was.

 

[Ladybird]

IMHO - the only real response to MtG was to keep your RPG company in the black, and to not fall into the trap of trying to compete with MtG by spending tons of money you don't have releasing your own CCG.

As was said above; MtG created a new gaming category - it was a phenomenon to weather, not to try and compete with.

I suppose that at the time, there would have been a lot of real concern - "new upstart game creates new category, nearly wipes out established veterans" was what D&D did, after all. Combined with how simple a game like Magic looks from the outside to design (Even it's own designers took a decade or so to really understand the game they had actually made), I think a lot of actions look very sensible in the time they were taken, even if they look incredibly short-sighted today.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

For a time CCGs were absolutely a license to print money (the amount of people I knew with an Illuminati: NWO factory set was staggering). It's just the bubble inevitably burst.

 

[xanther]

...I think a lot of actions look very sensible in the time they were taken, even if they look incredibly short-sighted today.

Hindsight is always 20/20...and so very easy to be an armchair quarterback....(that's armchair goalie for my impoverished ex-US gamers who do not know the glory of American football the real glory being team spending caps)

 

[Endless Flight]

I’d be curious to know if TSR actually made an actual profit from any of their licensed games, like Marvel Super Heroes. Critical and consumer acclaim doesn’t always translate to sales. Just ask the Ramones.

 

[ReluctantGM]

I think that's a story worth telling...

It was the spring term at the University of California at Davis in the year of Our Lord Nineteen Hundred Eighty Eight. I was sequestered with five of my friends in a tiny dorm room that stank of Cheetos, Mountain Dew, and the Funk of Unwashed Gamer. That was Mike. He rarely washed and even though we reminded him daily he somehow avoided the showers like the plague. Once, for his birthday, the entire floor chipped in and bought him a whole case of soap. Twenty bars of soap in a flower-print box with the note that reminded him to always remember to wash his butt.

Nohl was the GM of this fateful adventure. He had the Games Workshop hardcover edition of Stormbringer. We all thought that the cover art was the best thing ever and we immediately begged him to run a game. He didn't really want to but he know that we weren't gonna let him off that easy.

So we rolled up our characters.

I was playing Scaramouche, a vile piece of work from Pan Tang. He had found a demon-possessed flute and upon playing it for the first time he was committed as an Agent of the Jester of the Gods: Balo. It is important to know that I was but young and could not hold my liquor. After three or four cheap beers I was swinging for the fence. Scaramouche had that alternating colors thing going on real good. Red, green, blue, yellow, pink, etc... all checked and patterned in as repulsive a fashion as my beer-addled brain could manage. As I recall my hand-drawn character portrait looked like a human shaped blob of multi-colored vomit. I wasn't really an artist but nobody else would draw him for me. So it goes.

Eric was playing a beggar from Nadsokor who had every wasting disease he could think of. His character was named Larry the Leper. We were all pretty bent that he chose a dumb name like that but ... well, I don't remember the names of any of the other characters so I have to give him credit for coming up with a memorable name. He died in the first hour when a chaos blob fell out of the sky and flattened him into goo. Exit Eric. Lucky bastard.

From the very beginning of the game I began my campaign of Being A Total And Utter Dumbass. I had never played a Chaotic Neutral character before and I was bound and determined to try it out.

- I flirted with the town guards - swatted one of them on the ass. We ended up slaughtering the whole guard patrol in that back alley.

- I swore at the Pan Tangian wizard that hired our party. In anger he turned my character's tongue into a slug and Nohl (the GM) said I had to speak with a lisp for the rest of the session. Every time I forgot someone had to throw a Cheeto at me.

- I shanked the barmaid for shits and giggles. I guess she was supposed to have a clue or something and Nohl got mad at me.

- I summoned a demon in the middle of the town square and ordered it to "Clean Up This Hellhole." Nohl determined that it would pick up my character and use him as a broom to sweep up all the muck. Fair play on that one, I guess. The others got a good laugh out of it.

- When I pulled out my penny whistle as a prop during play my friend Faustino just reached out and took it from my hands. He was easily twice my size so there wasn't much I could do to get it back. So I started singing. I was a Jon Anderson wannabe with a baritone range. So when I started into my rendition of the Total Mass Retain movement of Yes' Close the Edge my friend Paul said, "Eric, can I just fucking kill him now?"

There was an immediate rush for everyone to grab their dice and roll initiative. As luck(?) would have it, my precious Scaramouche the Asshole Jester rolled lowest. By the time his action came around all there was left for him to do was bleed out. End of session.

Nohl handed me the book and said, "Alright, Asshole. You're GM now. I'm gonna roll up my own damn character now."

And that was how I started my love affair with all things BRP.

 

[Gabriel]

I’d be curious to know if TSR actually made an actual profit from any of their licensed games, like Marvel Super Heroes. Critical and consumer acclaim doesn’t always translate to sales. Just ask the Ramones.

I'd say Marvel Super Heroes did make some good money, leading it to be treated head and shoulders above any of TSRs non-D&D products. I doubt any of the others did much more than beyond break even. If I were to guess at which ones TSR took a bath on, I'd guess Conan and the second time around with Marvel for the Marvel Saga version of the game.

 

[Armchair Gamer]

TSR's financial issues lead to them staking to much on it that lead to overproduction that made the issues worse.

It's worth noting it's still produced today (with more expansions ) which suggests it has the fanbase to support a smaller company at least.

Generally, I think it was a decent product that failed to catch on. We're not talking about something objectively terrible like the ET video game.

As I understand, presale figures or positive reaction at GenCon led to the 'print a million' demand, which someone interpreted to mean a million sets, rather than a million dice, or something along those lines.

 

[Gabriel]

As I understand, presale figures or positive reaction at GenCon led to the 'print a million' demand, which someone interpreted to mean a million sets, rather than a million dice, or something along those lines.

I recall reading that it sold astoundingly well initially, leading to massive production expecting it to be a new big thing, and then immediately after sales dropped off a cliff.

 

[David Johansen]

Oddly enough, custom dice are a huge thing now.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Yeah, this one was overextension rather than product quality. And creative companies seem more prone to messing up like this than others.

I still remember when the (excellent) adult comics monthly Deadline was sunk because they got a Hollywood film and sank all their money into Tank Girl merchandise.

 

[Doc Sammy]

This has been a very interesting thread to read so far.

Now, here's a question I'm wanting to ask...

What would D&D have looked like if Dave Arneson kept creative control?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

This has been a very interesting thread to read so far.

Now, here's a question I'm wanting to ask...

What would D&D have looked like if Dave Arneson kept creative control?

It would never have been released. One of the main things Gygax did early on was write up Arneson's notes in a useable form. My understanding is that we're talking scrawls in notebooks, with a lot of important stuff existing purely in Arneson's head.

 

[Doc Sammy]

I believe it was serious. I never understood Gary's motivation to make classes based around mundane medieval occupations like sages, cavaliers, acrobats, jesters, and mountebanks. It's much less limiting to use timeless archetypes that fit within cultures both real and imaginary.

I'd chalk that up to his background in medieval wargaming and history. I dunno.

It would never have been released. One of the main things Gygax did early on was write up Arneson's notes in a useable form. My understanding is that we're talking scrawls in notebooks, with a lot of important stuff existing purely in Arneson's head.

Fair point. By most accounts, Arneson was more of an "idea guy" who could come up with a good outline for the game but Gygax would refine it into a more workable form.

I ask the question since there's been a lot of revisionism with the early days of TSR and about Gary Gygax in particular, so I wasn't sure if the stories about Arneson were exaggerated or not.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Fair point. By most accounts, Arneson was more of an "idea guy" who could come up with a good outline for the game but Gygax would refine it into a more workable form.

I ask the question since there's been a lot of revisionism with the early days of TSR and about Gary Gygax in particular, so I wasn't sure if the stories about Arneson were exaggerated or not.

The main reason I think that one is almost definitely true is that the Arneson camp tend to acknowledge it as well. It's not just Gygax claiming he did most of the work, it's from people there at the time who don't like Gygax that much.

 

[T. Foster]

Shifting the question a bit to what D&D might have ended up like if Arneson had stayed at TSR past 1976 and they’d listened to more of his ideas: I think the game would have remained much more of a niche product. We’d have seen fewer D&D supplements and they would likely have been more abstract and wargamey - with more stuff about determining budgets based on trade and investments and using those to build armies and strongholds and players more in the role of lords than a party of itinerant murderhobos. In addition TSR would have put more focus on other board games and wargames sourced from Arneson’s circle in the Twin Cities, some of them with rpg-like elements. TSR would probably have published Source of the Nile and more Tekumel stuff.

They would have remained a mid-tier publisher and might have even been overtaken in the rpg space by companies whose output was less abstract and cerebral and more directly usable, like Judges Guild or Chaosium. In the 80s their market would have declined in the face of competition from computer games and if they survived at all would have likely pivoted in that direction, and if TSR and D&D still existed into the 90s and beyond it would likely have been as makers of computer strategy games and D&D probably wouldn’t even be their most popular title.

 

[JAMUMU]

Hello there, fellow RPGers! I've joined the 'pub just to reply to this thread.

A few years ago I bought a set of books called "Adventures Dark & Deep", which was a labour of love purporting to be Gygax's vision of what 2e should have/could have been (Jesters and Mountebanks included). I found it an interesting curio, though I haven't ever used it beyond the comprehensive Bestiary, which is a nice one-stop-shop for most OSR games.

I'm not affiliated with Adventures Dark & Deep in any way, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned in the thread before. The curious among you can find it on drivethru by typing in the letters Adventures Dark and Deep, in that order.

All the best!

 

[Tulpa Girl]

Welcome to the Pub, Swearwolf !

 

[CT_Phipps]

I don't think it would have even survived the 80s under his control.

I think it's important to also take note that Gary Gygax was attempting to do the "Stan Lee." His issue was that Gary had lost interest in the Dungeons and Dragons portions of the market at least in terms of tabletop gaming. Much of the problem was Gary had gone to Hollywood and was trying to pitch spin off material like the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon and merchandise.

Unfortunately, screw ups meant that when they finally DID get the cartoon, they didn't have the rights to produce any toys for it. Which Gary unfortunately took the blame for among other things.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I find the recent love for the D&D cartoon hilarious because my recollection is that really wasn't what the grogs were saying at the time.

It's as if many self proclaimed old school gamers a) are from the munchkin generation (like myself) rather than actual OGs and b) are basing their pure stance on what they liked when they were kids.

 

[Akrasia]

I find the recent love for the D&D cartoon hilarious because my recollection is that really wasn't what the grogs were saying at the time.

I remember hating that cartoon at the time (~1983).

If there's love for it now I am (blissfully) unaware of it.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah, put thirteen year old me down for a big, fat LAME!

 

[Bunch]

I liked the cartoon. I'd have been around 10-12 at the time. I was just happy to see D&D on TV. We were playing RPGs a lot at that time.

 

[Endless Flight]

I was a Superfriends kid through and through.

 

[CT_Phipps]

I find the recent love for the D&D cartoon hilarious because my recollection is that really wasn't what the grogs were saying at the time.

It's as if many self proclaimed old school gamers a) are from the munchkin generation (like myself) rather than actual OGs and b) are basing their pure stance on what they liked when they were kids.

I mean, it's a show for kids and D&D started as a college wargaming experience so it's a bit like the Adam West narrative cycle in retrospect. Adam West said that his career suffered a twenty year career dive as he was mocked and treated as a has been for the campy kids show that he starred in. So much so he was genuinely stunned when he started getting calls again out of nowhere and the producers talked to him about the show reverently--and wanted to give him roles again.

This was, of course, because the children who'd watched the show had grown up and become Hollywood players who didn't remember it as goofy and stupid but a beloved part of their childhood. Bruce Timm abd Seth MacFarlane being two examples.

Edit:

Random factoid. Dungeons and Dragons the cartoon is so popular in Brazil due to syndication that a car company bought the rights to use the characters in one of their commercials.

 

[CT_Phipps]

The first live action appearance of Tiamat.

Oh and probably the best D&D movie.