When you want to play a D&D-style game, you reach for...

Gringnr

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"Dungeon Master
Ready to slay the dragon action
That's cool I support the cause
And its sponsors
But I'm partial to
Mazes and Monsters
And I play with pride
I get a limb removed each time my character dies"

-Grand Buffet
1000 Percent
 

Voros

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Mark E Smith would have punched you if you'd called him that to his face, after barking unintelligably at you for half an hour.
...
Napalm definitely. Their first ever stuff was on a Crass records compliation.
For sure but one of my favourite Fall records I am Kurious Oranj was the soundtrack for a dance performance and their name is taken from (the best and last complete) novel by Albert Camus, plus there's not a more literate and clever lyricist in rock music than Smith. Being arty and kickass were hardly in conflict (course I know you know that), quite the opposite as I find the artier punk bands in the UK were noisier and more rhythmically together.

It is interesting that all the early UK grind bands were regulars on the Peel Sessions, Earache put out a great compilation of the sessions years ago. The pics of the early Bullen/Broadrick/Harris lineup show how crust and amazingly young ND were.

Napalm Death 1986.jpg

Seriously, how adorable are they?
 
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Gringnr

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Yeah, John Peel was huge in helping grindcore break.

There's a great book called Choosing Death: The Improbable History Of Death Metal & Grindcore that is a great, eye-opening read. Peel wrote the foreword.

And that pic, just boys. But I have long said that was the appeal of the more underground musical movements to us as young men. These bands weren't made up, didn't have stylists and wardrobe people. They looked like us. They looked like our friends. In a way, they were us. And that's a big part of what made that music, be it thrash or punk, feel like it was ours.
 

Stevethulhu

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Among my friends and I, it was definitely NOT OK to listen to Bon Jovi. If you did, you kept that shit to yourself. Obviously, I'm more mature and secure now. Hell, Hanoi Rocks is one of my favorite bands. But there was definitely a division among the different genres of metal, at least regionally. I first went to high school in Southern CA. We were all about the hardest and fastest stuff. Slayer, Celtic Frost, etc. I then moved to a suburb of Phoenix my sophomore year. The kids there were still listening to Rush and Led Zeppelin. It was like going backwards in time lol.
Sure there were divisions. But girls listened to Def Leppard and Bon Jovi, so it was well worth getting into the so called commercial stuff :wink:

The thing was, back then we had two hours a week on the radio. The Friday Rock Show was an institution here in the UK, and Tommy Vance was more important than John Peel. Who, in his unbiased search for new stuff, played some right shite.
 

Voros

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I remember there being a lot of snobbishness and tribalism about what music you listened to as a teen, that is something that has thankfully gone into decline since for kids and teens I think.

I never cared for it but then I was listening to jazz and blues music at the same time as all the metal and punk, even converted some of my friends to it actually.

Plus the number of us who listened to punk and metal was too small for us to 'split' in any way. A metal or punk purist would have been all on their own, how kvlt would that have been!
 

TristramEvans

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Among my friends and I, it was definitely NOT OK to listen to Bon Jovi. If you did, you kept that shit to yourself.
huh, I never had friends who ever commented on musical choices. We never really talked about music at all though, it was just something I did on my own. Years later I had girlfriends who disliked my music, but then, I generally disliked their music as well.
 

Black Leaf

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Stevethulhu said:
The thing was, back then we had two hours a week on the radio. The Friday Rock Show was an institution here in the UK, and Tommy Vance was more important than John Peel. Who, in his unbiased search for new stuff, played some right shite.
This is so true. People remember John Peel as the man who pushed the Undertones. But not the man that inflicted Bogshed on a nation.
 
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Black Leaf

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huh, I never had friends who ever commented on musical choices. We never really talked about music at all though, it was just something I did on my own. Years later I had girlfriends who disliked my music, but then, I generally disliked their music as well.
We never shut up about music. But the "alternative" kids hung together mostly. My social group had punks, goths, metalheads, indie kids and even a few old school anti racist skinheads.
 

Voros

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Sure there were divisions. But girls listened to Def Leppard and Bon Jovi, so it was well worth getting into the so called commercial stuff :wink:
That was what was so great about AC/DC, girls loved them too. But actually our small circle in high school did include a rather gorgeous goth/metal girl who dug everything we did, later on in university the local punk scene had lots of women in the bands and audience.
 

Stevethulhu

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I remember there being a lot of snobbishness and tribalism about what music you listened to as a teen, that is something that has thankfully gone into decline since for kids and teens I think.

I never cared for it but then I was listening to jazz and blues music at the same time as all the metal and punk, even converted some of my friends to it actually.

Plus the number of us who listened to punk and metal was too small for us to 'split' in any way. A metal or punk purist would have been all on their own, how kvlt would that have been!
I think for me, learning guitar in the 80s was a huge thing for breaking down walls. On the one hand you have Mr Van Halen and his ilk, but you also had the late Paul Kossoff and active remnants of that second wave British Blues thing. Plus all the 60s and 70s genre blending and bending. Goth, rock, metal, blues, prog, it all kind of blurred together into guitar-bass-drums and optional keyboards.

There was some tribalism. Never did the rock/metal crowd mingle with the Northern Soul or embryonic Dance cliques. But we even had mods in our social group, and they were notoriously tribal by any standards.

That's not to say there weren't assholes around. But assholes are going to do what they're going to do. And music, taste in TV or movies, clothes, choice of reading material are all fair game to some people.
 

Black Leaf

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That was what was so great about AC/DC, girls loved them too. But actually our small circle in high school did include a rather gorgeous goth/metal girl who dug everything we did, later on in university the local punk scene had lots of women in the bands and audience.
One of the main punk lasses I knew at uni was the daughter of a vicar and was an absolute nutter when it came to drugs.
 

Chainsaw

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OD&D, 1E and AS&SH

Ran AS&SH at Gary Con, NTRPG Con and GameHole over the past few years, then followed up with a couple of online AS&SH campaigns.

Thinking human-focused 1E for my next online campaign, once I get the material written up.
 

Spartan

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These days for D&D I run Swords & Wizardry Complete, which is far and away my favourite OSR game: it hits that sweet spot for me, like a proto-AD&D. It has all the options I need for my preferred style of D&D. It does the things.

However, I’m not exclusive in that regard. Another great one I’ve used is Wayfarers, effectively a point-buy AD&D without Hit Point inflation. A wonderful game. Armour reduces damage, and your TN to hit is your opponent’s Dodge score. One of the most under appreciated games out there. This is where my gritty D&D lives. The feel of the game is outstanding.

Currently I’m running the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy RPG for my hexcrawl/dungeon crawl game. I’ve run a couple of sessions, and so far so good. It’s performed very well. It’s certainly crunchy, but like a good OSR game it punishes stupidity. It’s not quite as unforgiving which is good because GURPS characters take some time to make. Another thing I like is the spell prerequisites, which are not too different results-wise from the spell lists in Rolemaster, which I love. It also avoids the swinginess of Rolemaster, so I don’t have to worry so much about a PC taking an arrow to the eye, resulting in an unwanted, time-consuming character generation. DF has impressed me enough that GURPS will be my go-to for the time being. I’ve had requests to run Tekumel, Jorune, and other oddities so having a single system that can do them justice is great. Especially since some rpg properties have systems that are less than stellar.
 

AsenRG

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However, I’m not exclusive in that regard. Another great one I’ve used is Wayfarers, effectively a point-buy AD&D without Hit Point inflation. A wonderful game. Armour reduces damage, and your TN to hit is your opponent’s Dodge score. One of the most under appreciated games out there. This is where my gritty D&D lives. The feel of the game is outstanding.
I need to check that game:smile:!
(I passed it on the principle that I've got 1234567890 OSR clones already and don't need another one).

Currently I’m running the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy RPG for my hexcrawl/dungeon crawl game. I’ve run a couple of sessions, and so far so good. It’s performed very well. It’s certainly crunchy, but like a good OSR game it punishes stupidity. It’s not quite as unforgiving which is good because GURPS characters take some time to make. Another thing I like is the spell prerequisites, which are not too different results-wise from the spell lists in Rolemaster, which I love. It also avoids the swinginess of Rolemaster, so I don’t have to worry so much about a PC taking an arrow to the eye, resulting in an unwanted, time-consuming character generation. DF has impressed me enough that GURPS will be my go-to for the time being. I’ve had requests to run Tekumel, Jorune, and other oddities so having a single system that can do them justice is great. Especially since some rpg properties have systems that are less than stellar.
Yeah, DF is good. You might want to consider the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling supplement for it as well, a.k.a. the simplified GURPS: Technical Grappling for DF:wink:!
 

Spartan

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I need to check that game:smile:!
(I passed it on the principle that I've got 1234567890 OSR clones already and don't need another one).
That is precisely one too few. It’s one of my “from my cold, dead hands” games.


Yeah, DF is good. You might want to consider the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling supplement for it as well, a.k.a. the simplified GURPS: Technical Grappling for DF:wink:!
Yeah, reading Dungeon Fantastic has made me want to pick that up. :smile:
 

AsenRG

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That is precisely one too few. It’s one of my “from my cold, dead hands” games.


Yeah, reading Dungeon Fantastic has made me want to pick that up. :smile:
I'll definitely check Wayfarers!
Hmm, it seems the 2008 edition is quite cheap! How does it compare with a later 2012 edition?

Are there any other pdfs you suggest to round out Dungeon Fantasy? How about the main range of DF for GURPS? Is that particularly compatible?
None that I can think of, sorry. But I'm not much of an expert in DF. I just kinda like GURPS, having run it for some years:shade:.
 

Scuba Steve

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The last D&D-style game I played was with Dungeon World. I wasn't a huge fan of the system itself, but my friend who was running it loved it so I partook just for his sake. I had fun, though I don't think I'd ever play DW again.

In the future I'd probably play 5e for a D&D-style game. Although I don't much care for Vancian magic, so I'd probably change that.
 

AsenRG

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I like GURS myself. But I'm a 3rd ed grognard.
I've mostly ran 4th, though I started in 3rd:smile:. But I'd play either.
And I still remember Kromm's Combat Notes being very useful...
So I was just glad to see them incorporated in the corebook:wink:!

I'm kinda a fan of Douglas H. Cole's work on grappling in RPGs (the earliest analogues of which, amusingly, seemed to exist in Twlight 2000:devil:). So of course I knew about this supplement - and of course, if I was to run Dungeon Fantasy, I'd use the Hall of Judgement setting!
 

Spartan

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I'll definitely check Wayfarers!
Hmm, it seems the 2008 edition is quite cheap! How does it compare with a later 2012 edition?
I’ve only glanced at the old edition, but IIRC the second edition is a little grittier, with an increase in damage inflicted on average. I don’t imagine they’re grossly incompatible at any rate. :smile:
 

Spartan

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Are there any other pdfs you suggest to round out Dungeon Fantasy? How about the main range of DF for GURPS? Is that particularly compatible?
The later printed supplements in DFRPG are pretty nice, and probably more useful than the old PDFs. If you’re really into expanding the DF box set, you’re likely better off delving (ha!) into the standard GURPS books: Basic Set, Martial Arts, Powers, etc. At least, that’s what I’m currently doing. DFRPG is apparently pretty much straight up 4e tailored for murder hobos. :grin:
 

AsenRG

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I’ve only glanced at the old edition, but IIRC the second edition is a little grittier, with an increase in damage inflicted on average. I don’t imagine they’re grossly incompatible at any rate. :smile:
Grittier is always nice:shade:! What's causing this change, if you remember?

The later printed supplements in DFRPG are pretty nice, and probably more useful than the old PDFs. If you’re really into expanding the DF box set, you’re likely better off delving (ha!) into the standard GURPS books: Basic Set, Martial Arts, Powers, etc. At least, that’s what I’m currently doing. DFRPG is apparently pretty much straight up 4e tailored for murder hobos. :grin:
I was presuming he already has that:smile:.
Also, GURPS Martial Arts 4e is pretty much excellent, though you probably knew to expect it, right:wink:?
 

dbm

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I have pretty much all of GURPS 4e and both flavours of Dungeon Fantasy (it was my retail therapy of choice for a long time...).

The Dungeon Fantasy RPG Powered by GURPS line is 99.999% identical to other bits of GURPS under the covers. There are some small changes around slam attacks and maybe one or two more but they are tiny. The main difference is that in the DFRPG line they don’t ‘show their working’. So, whilst in regular GURPS or the DF PDF line they will show a list of advantages, enhancements and limitations that were used to build it, in the DFRPG they just give your the description of the end result and the cost. The intention is to make it less daunting to new readers.

This means that it is very easy to use DFRPG with any other GURPS product, and transitioning from it to ‘full’ GURPS is almost zero effort at the table, even if it might need a bit of work in character creation to get people completely new to GURPS to make characters ‘whole cloth’.

Whilst GURPS was my go-to game for about a decade, in my group only about half of the players had previously played, and nowhere near as much. When the DFRPG box set came out I decided to run a campaign for them so that they could get to grips with the rules. It worked really quite well. The rules are ‘sensible’ in that they have a very high verisimilitude when dealing with realistic activity, and that helps both with general exploration and basic combat tactics. As long as the GM understands how the options work mechanically at the start, the players can (in my experience) pick them up fairly quickly by osmosis.

If you want more DF then the official DFRPG expansions (Companion, Companion 2, Magic Items 2 and Monsters 2) are the most ‘efficient’ choice by virtue of not having any duplication of what is in the main box. If you aren’t bothered by some duplication then adding in books from the Dungeon Fantasy PDF line is a good way of adding more detail in specific areas. I used some of DF3 (The Next Level) which has a wider range of races stat’ed up (one of my players wanted to be a different kind of elf than what is in the box set). I also used DF16 (Wilderness Adventures) to add some more detail into overland travel since the game I was running covered a lot of travel.
 
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Chris Brady

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These days for D&D I run Swords & Wizardry Complete, which is far and away my favourite OSR game: it hits that sweet spot for me, like a proto-AD&D. It has all the options I need for my preferred style of D&D. It does the things.

However, I’m not exclusive in that regard. Another great one I’ve used is Wayfarers, effectively a point-buy AD&D without Hit Point inflation. A wonderful game. Armour reduces damage, and your TN to hit is your opponent’s Dodge score. One of the most under appreciated games out there. This is where my gritty D&D lives. The feel of the game is outstanding.
At first you had my interest. Now, you have my attention.
 

Spartan

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Grittier is always nice:shade:! What's causing this change, if you remember?
I think it was to mitigate the effect of armour, reducing tanking.

I was presuming he already has that:smile:.
Also, GURPS Martial Arts 4e is pretty much excellent, though you probably knew to expect it, right:wink:?
Indeed. :smile:
 

AsenRG

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Because of people mentioning Wayfarers, I got interested in finding out more. Found this post from the author on theRPGsite answering this exact question.
Thank you:thumbsup:!
Well, it seems more damage, a few more random tables, weapon Str minimums, simpler chargen, and characters beginning at skill 0 as default are the big ones. Also, I approve all the changes, except for splitting the book in three!
 

NinjaWeasel

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I bounced hard off D&D when I first started gaming. My first two RPGs were the BECMI Red Box and GW's Judge Dredd. Dredd was kind of what I was hoping for from an RPG but Red Box left me cold. I wanted to like it but every time I read it I just felt like I didn't want to play it, let alone run it. I only played it a couple of times but I wasn't impressed. My D&D experiences didn't improve from there, for a very long time, either.

A friend who ran those Red Box sessions switched to AD&D 2nd Edition and I tried that and dropped out after 2 or 3 sessions. I never picked up 3.0/3.5 as it just seemed massively over-engineered (or bloated if I want to be less diplomatic). I played a couple of sessions of 4th and the combat just bored me to tears and it swallowed up too much gaming time. Now, 5th edition is, for me, the best and most consistent single core set in the history of the game... however... it's still a little too bloated for me really. Particularly in regards to combat. It's not as bad as 4th edition, as far as my tastes go, but could be simplified greatly. It's also somewhat overpowered. I prefer things a little grittier. Although it doesn't have to be a zero-to-hero style progression.

Overall, I think 5th edition has some great things going for it but if I'm going to play a traditional, dungeon crawl heavy game then I do not want a system with 5th edition's complexity. I'd just go with Tiny Dungeon or The Black Hack 1st edition. They do what you need and they do it quickly, and simply, and with very little fuss. Of the OSR games out there The Black Hack is my favourite (though Fantastic Heroes & Witchery is cool too), and it's easy to customise, so it's probably my favoured choice for a D&D experience. I can throw in Aspects (from Heroic Fantasy), and Knacks/Skills/Backgrounds (from The Knack Hack), or my own custom skill system if I want to flesh the characters out a bit with an eye to longer-term play.
 
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