Where I skim Tales of Gor

[AsenRG]

Oh yeah, Delany has written three overtly pornographic and Sadeian novels: Equinox, Hogg and The Mad Man. I've read Hogg, it is grotesque and heavy. Those books make Norman's books read like YA in comparison.

Neveryon is the sword and sorcery series with slavery and S/M dynamics as strong themes, Norman may even be an influence on the series, Leiber definitely is.

I've only read the short stories but the books have a good reputation as some of the more accessible work of late Delany.

Never knew those exist.
Can't say I'm going to track them, either...not really my thing, I'm only into lighter parts of the whole scene. But it's funny they even exist!
And yeah...making Norman seem like Young Adult is definitely a thing with more contemporary writers. That's exactly why I believe that the Gor RPG is better-suited to attracting players by virtue of the setting being a fun place to have adventures in!

 

[Northlandian]

I googled around a bit and found a blog that had information about Gorean roleplaying in 2nd life. The articles were a bit old (2010-2011) but had some valuable information, particularly about roleplaying a woman in the world of Gor, whether a Free or a Slave -something that easily could be seen as playing on a higher challenge setting.

Apparently the way to roleplay a free woman could be summed up as playing a petty, vindictive, jealous character. A (insert word for female dog) or a (pejorative word derived from the female sexual organ).

Funny enough, the RPG is much more egalitarian as the special rules of 2nd life (By The Book) did not even allow female characters to wield certain weapons as they were to weak and the weapon to heavy, something that isn't true in the RPG as male characters are just +1 pip stronger, not really enough difference to disallow a female PC to swing an Alar axe with the same force as a man in almost every case.
It does seem that the culture of not allowing women to touch weapons are a greater hurdle, even for free women, to the female "PC adventurer".
But I think there are loopholes.
In the city, a woman would have no need to arm herself as the Gorean Honour system would protect her, but in the wilderness there are outlaws and wild animals.
Bow and arrow, crossbow, slings are scorned by the warrior caste but would be a source of ranged support in the hands of the non-warrior woman (and easily discounted as a hunting weapon).
So would a spear and almost anything that could be considered a farmers tool like a sickle, grain thresher (pretty much a wooden flail) or pitchfork.
Outlaws or the caste of thieves would likely not give a damn.

Based on modern research (that I don't think was available to John Norman as he wrote his books) there is also the argument to be made that Torvaldslanders would have a special priviliege, as there are norse sagas about the odd female hero (most notable the saga of Hervor, one of the wielders of the cursed sword Tyrfing, who dressed as a man, took a mans name and went on Viking with the men).
The Pani would be in a similar situation as there are actual photographic evidence of women Samurai in the 19th century.

But I also considered if a woman PC had any advantages compared to the male PC.

One would be that if the party wiped, the male characters would either be killed outright or if surviving be sold of as a slave worked to death anyway in the arena or in the mines.
But the female PCs would first be enslaved and might then be sold off to new owners, maybe the other players new characters!

Another thing to consider is that a captured male slave would have no honour. In the prospect of taken slave, a man would fight until his last point of Honour was spent. I don't know if I would even allow a unfree man to earn Honour points until they are freed. Maybe some of the lower castes or Men of Earth.
Female characters on the other hand... I am hesitant to consider a woman character losing honour if they surrender or submit. After all, they act as expected, right?

Pg 40 states that: "Devotion to codes and a sense of purpose allow them to exert themselves beyond the efforts of the average guardsman, slave or merchant"

I can't interpret that in any other way than being a slave would not prevent you from getting Honou points, as long as one act along the code of the slave.

 

[Bill Reich]

The parts that draw most outrage start after circa book 8 or 9, though.

Though to be honest, Tarl is boring. My recommendation is to find the trilogy Norman has written, one of the books was named Fighting Slave of Gor, and read those three. They're a very decent "quickstart" on Gorean culture, and what happens when people "go native"...which is also the development that awaits Tarl!

"Tarl is boring." Worse than virtually anything else. Maybe, if I loved everything else about the series, i would have continued reading it. Also, i had a very submissive girlfriend for four years when i was young and eventually got bored by the whole idea. She's a nun last i heard.

 

[AsenRG]

I googled around a bit and found a blog that had information about Gorean roleplaying in 2nd life. The articles were a bit old (2010-2011) but had some valuable information, particularly about roleplaying a woman in the world of Gor, whether a Free or a Slave -something that easily could be seen as playing on a higher challenge setting.

Apparently the way to roleplay a free woman could be summed up as playing a petty, vindictive, jealous character. A (insert word for female dog) or a (pejorative word derived from the female sexual organ).

Funny enough, the RPG is much more egalitarian as the special rules of 2nd life (By The Book) did not even allow female characters to wield certain weapons as they were to weak and the weapon to heavy, something that isn't true in the RPG as male characters are just +1 pip stronger, not really enough difference to disallow a female PC to swing an Alar axe with the same force as a man in almost every case.
It does seem that the culture of not allowing women to touch weapons are a greater hurdle, even for free women, to the female "PC adventurer".
But I think there are loopholes.
In the city, a woman would have no need to arm herself as the Gorean Honour system would protect her, but in the wilderness there are outlaws and wild animals.
Bow and arrow, crossbow, slings are scorned by the warrior caste but would be a source of ranged support in the hands of the non-warrior woman (and easily discounted as a hunting weapon).
So would a spear and almost anything that could be considered a farmers tool like a sickle, grain thresher (pretty much a wooden flail) or pitchfork.
Outlaws or the caste of thieves would likely not give a damn.

Based on modern research (that I don't think was available to John Norman as he wrote his books) there is also the argument to be made that Torvaldslanders would have a special priviliege, as there are norse sagas about the odd female hero (most notable the saga of Hervor, one of the wielders of the cursed sword Tyrfing, who dressed as a man, took a mans name and went on Viking with the men).
The Pani would be in a similar situation as there are actual photographic evidence of women Samurai in the 19th century.

But I also considered if a woman PC had any advantages compared to the male PC.

One would be that if the party wiped, the male characters would either be killed outright or if surviving be sold of as a slave worked to death anyway in the arena or in the mines.
But the female PCs would first be enslaved and might then be sold off to new owners, maybe the other players new characters!

Another thing to consider is that a captured male slave would have no honour. In the prospect of taken slave, a man would fight until his last point of Honour was spent. I don't know if I would even allow a unfree man to earn Honour points until they are freed. Maybe some of the lower castes or Men of Earth.
Female characters on the other hand... I am hesitant to consider a woman character losing honour if they surrender or submit. After all, they act as expected, right?

Pg 40 states that: "Devotion to codes and a sense of purpose allow them to exert themselves beyond the efforts of the average guardsman, slave or merchant"

I can't interpret that in any other way than being a slave would not prevent you from getting Honou points, as long as one act along the code of the slave.

I basically agree with everything there, except I don't see a reason why you'd need to retire the male PCs if they get enslaved (I can see either allowing them to gain Honour or not, an argument can be made easily for either). How many of the characters in Norman books were the same way for a time?
As Norman states, slavery came around to reduce the need for killing all enemies. Use it as intended.

"Tarl is boring." Worse than virtually anything else. Maybe, if I loved everything else about the series, i would have continued reading it. Also, i had a very submissive girlfriend for four years when i was young and eventually got bored by the whole idea. She's a nun last i heard.

No, I don't "love everything else about the series". But I like the setting, as stated so many times, so I haven't given up on finishing the series, either...though I'm making big pauses. Like years-long ones.

Never had a gf that would be so submissive I'd get bored of it. Until today, I didn't think one like this would exist!
A nun is a weirdly fitting calling in this case.

 

[Northlandian]

I basically agree with everything there, except I don't see a reason why you'd need to retire the male PCs if they get enslaved (I can see either allowing them to gain Honour or not, an argument can be made easily for either). How many of the characters in Norman books were the same way for a time?
As Norman states, slavery came around to reduce the need for killing all enemies. Use it as intended.

True. Outright murdering a surrendered male warrior PC might not be suitable. I was more thinking that the male warrior PC would fight to the last breath, at least as long as he had any Honour points left.
Before dying from excessive damage, the PC might be allowed to spend a final Honour point to stabilize at 1 hit point, dropping unconscious instead, to increase the chance of being taken prisoner instead of having to roll up a new character.

 

[AsenRG]

True. Outright murdering a surrendered male warrior PC might not be suitable. I was more thinking that the male warrior PC would fight to the last breath, at least as long as he had any Honour points left.
Before dying from excessive damage, the PC might be allowed to spend a final Honour point to stabilize at 1 hit point, dropping unconscious instead, to increase the chance of being taken prisoner instead of having to roll up a new character.

Depending on the enemy, they might also be taken prisoner. Which is also a status symbol.

 

[Northlandian]

As I probably mentioned earlier I'm thinking about running a short campaign just to let my players try it out.
But since none of them have read any of the books (and tbf, I've only read the first ones) it would be quite hard for them to understand the Gorean ways, and explaining it like "50 shades of John Carter of Mars" might not be the best explanation.

So my idea is to have the players all start off as earthhumans in the present day, being members of various goverment organisations, being recruited into a top secret agency that is trying to find all about Gor. Like a mix of Aegis from Conspiracy X with a bit of Stargate command. (Maybe this is the true nature of Space force.)
They can be NASA researchers who find out about there being a hidden planet on the other side of the sun since the math to calculate the trajectories of comets and asteroids don't add up unless you account for a previously unknown gravity field almost the size of earth. Or maybe they just come across pictures from the Mars probes. (Even if Gor is somehow hidden, its possible you can realize something is "there" since it obscures something one expects to see. TvTropes actually calls this out as a reason that Gor could impossibly been a secret for hundred of years back. But I just think that back then such information could be more easily surpressed at least until the advent of Internet and social media. Which is why the Kur have done something drastic to keep the secret but more that leater)
The characters can be FBI (or journalists) working with missing people and kidnapping, not knowing that they are getting closer to Kur trafficking operations.
They can also be secret service because the Kur, in an effort to extort the US president have kidnapped a relative of theirs and shipped her off to Gor.

So the game starts out on Earth, investigating mysterious kidnappings, particularly of pretty young girls. They find the responsible agents (maybe even face off against an actual Kur) to find out that the kidnapped people are no longer on earth.

First off, the government packs the Kur transports full of heavily armed marines. Only to perish in blue fire.
So now the duty shifts to the PC to infiltrate and recover instead. Codename Snake (after snake plissken of course)
And no weapons heavier than a easily hidden supressed .45 or 9mm, only to be used in absolute emergency (and with limited ammo the players need to learn to use bows and crossbows soon)

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[AsenRG]

As I probably mentioned earlier I'm thinking about running a short campaign just to let my players try it out.
But since none of them have read any of the books (and tbf, I've only read the first ones) it would be quite hard for them to understand the Gorean ways, and explaining it like "50 shades of John Carter of Mars" might not be the best explanation.

So my idea is to have the players all start off as earthhumans in the present day, being members of various goverment organisations, being recruited into a top secret agency that is trying to find all about Gor. Like a mix of Aegis from Conspiracy X with a bit of Stargate command. (Maybe this is the true nature of Space force.)
They can be NASA researchers who find out about there being a hidden planet on the other side of the sun since the math to calculate the trajectories of comets and asteroids don't add up unless you account for a previously unknown gravity field almost the size of earth. Or maybe they just come across pictures from the Mars probes. (Even if Gor is somehow hidden, its possible you can realize something is "there" since it obscures something one expects to see. TvTropes actually calls this out as a reason that Gor could impossibly been a secret for hundred of years back. But I just think that back then such information could be more easily surpressed at least until the advent of Internet and social media. Which is why the Kur have done something drastic to keep the secret but more that leater)
The characters can be FBI (or journalists) working with missing people and kidnapping, not knowing that they are getting closer to Kur trafficking operations.
They can also be secret service because the Kur, in an effort to extort the US president have kidnapped a relative of theirs and shipped her off to Gor.

So the game starts out on Earth, investigating mysterious kidnappings, particularly of pretty young girls. They find the responsible agents (maybe even face off against an actual Kur) to find out that the kidnapped people are no longer on earth.

First off, the government packs the Kur transports full of heavily armed marines. Only to perish in blue fire.
So now the duty shifts to the PC to infiltrate and recover instead. Codename Snake (after snake plissken of course)
And no weapons heavier than a easily hidden supressed .45 or 9mm, only to be used in absolute emergency (and with limited ammo the players need to learn to use bows and crossbows soon)

Thoughts? Suggestions?

The gravity part has been mentioned in the books: the Priest-Kings' tech is based on commanding gravity. So they're basically compensating for the gravitational pull of Gor, and thus the planet explicitly cannot be detected that way.
Neither can it be seen, unless a probe is sent near the Sun so it won't shield Gor from optical surveillance. The planet is ALWAYS exactly on the other side of the Sun, in a straight line with Earth... (Of course, with PK tech and agents on Earth, said probe is likely to suffer an accident before crossing the orbit of Venus).

And of course, if anyone from Earth spots it by accident? If it's not a government researcher, go tell people that a whole planet is there, but the gravitational data doesn't fit...some still don't believe the Moon landings, remember!

If it's a government researcher? As soon as they compare the above data, they're going to realize something is amiss. Such info simply is going to become TOP SECRET faster than I can type this out.

OTOH, "investigating a high-profile kidnapping and then ending up kidnapped" can very well work. Male slaves aren't as valuable, but if you need to dispose of someone, it's better to get something for your work, right?
And if we assume a government agency exists, maybe the Kur submitted the info to the Earthmen, which they consider as lower than Goreans. And since no decisive info even exists, it's an understaffed one, maybe seen as sinecura...so no special training for the agents. But such agents might end up being kidnapped as well. (The kidnappers back on Earth would probably add disinformation in this case - like throwing stolen drugs in their cars and leaving them in a sparsely populated area, so the case would be covered by their own superiors. It's not like Goreans would be averse to risking a theft from drug dealers - and that would explain the bodies never being found).

 

[Northlandian]

Neither can it be seen, unless a probe is sent near the Sun so it won't shield Gor from optical surveillance. The planet is ALWAYS exactly on the other side of the Sun, in a straight line with Earth... (Of course, with PK tech and agents on Earth, said probe is likely to suffer an accident before crossing the orbit of Venus).

Good point about the Priest kings ability of gravity control but dont forget the mars landers. For a couple of months every year Mars IS on the other side of the sun from Earth, which is why any camera looking up instead of at the surface of Mars would possibly see a planet in front of the sun.

Doing some research I found out that there was many many Mars probes already in the '60s that never made it off the starting platform. I agree that PK or Kur interference may be a reason for these early failures. But nowadays we not only have NASA working on space travel but EASA, Russia, China, India. Kur can't infiltrate them all. And then we have the three Billionaires and their space race. (although I would make particularly Bezos a Gorean and a Kur agent.)

As for infiltrating Gor, I wasnt planning on having them being kidnapped but have them use a earthmade spacecraft outfitted with a PK or Kur engine from a crashed UFO (Roswell?) hidden in a Falcon X rocket (and detatch and head for Gor secretly)
I want to give my players at least a chance to learn the culture by making friends instead of captured. Now if they get captured because they go around and tell people they are from Earth and "beware my boom stick" they'll have whats coming to them, but not before having a chance to avoid it.
Mainly because its not enjoyable as a player when you have no control over things like that.

Of course, if the players decline, there always the prospect of Kur kidnapping... as you suggested

 

[AsenRG]

Good point about the Priest kings ability of gravity control but dont forget the mars landers. For a couple of months every year Mars IS on the other side of the sun from Earth, which is why any camera looking up instead of at the surface of Mars would possibly see a planet in front of the sun.

You know, when you can move an entire planet and compensate for it gravitic field? Interference with the lights in the visible spectrum and projecting a pre-recorded message on a primitive machine like the Mars Lander wouldn't be ANY issue.
Like, to give you a better idea: Kur tech is our Science Fiction. Like "making the body regenerate if there's something that would require operation on Earth" SF. (Though they don't even heal their own wounded often, because they believe in survival of the fittest as a holy writ).
Now, keep in mind, the Priest-Kings are an unwarlike species with much lesser numbers than the Kurii that actually does repulse the latter by technological superiority.
So, what do you think the PK scientists think of their Earth colleagues? Envy?

Also, there is such tech in one of the books - literally a ring that makes the wearer invisible - and from the reaction to it, it seems the PKs aren't terribly worried. I mean, it's ancient Kur tech, from before their technological decline (the habitat that manufactured it might be destroyed by now)...so what do the Priest-Kings do? Why, they send one guy to retrieve it: Tarl!
Would you do that if it's a never-before-seen technology? No? Well, there's your hint.
And you don't even need that. You can hack a camera, or put a re-transmitter near the signal...or other stuff I can't even think of at the moment. Imagine the power of a PK-made computer. Can it brute-force any password? Of course. And that's for starters. And it's probably the equivalent of a smartphone to them...remember, at least two orders of magnitude over our best tech?

Doing some research I found out that there was many many Mars probes already in the '60s that never made it off the starting platform. I agree that PK or Kur interference may be a reason for these early failures. But nowadays we not only have NASA working on space travel but EASA, Russia, China, India. Kur can't infiltrate them all. And then we have the three Billionaires and their space race. (although I would make particularly Bezos a Gorean and a Kur agent.)

But all of those missions, apart from maybe a random Chinese one, are basically announced in the media...
So how many agents do the Priest-Kings need? Because they're the ones hiding Gor, the Kur don't really care (but probably wouldn't go open to the Earthmen in order to avoid the PKs going on an offensive war this time - their last fleets were destroyed by a defensive war).

So, you think the PKs who are making sure nobody spots them wouldn't intercept such a probe? That they cannot hack the cameras? Come on...
About the only weak link would be actual agents. Everything else can be blocked.

As for infiltrating Gor, I wasnt planning on having them being kidnapped but have them use a earthmade spacecraft outfitted with a PK or Kur engine from a crashed UFO (Roswell?) hidden in a Falcon X rocket (and detatch and head for Gor secretly)

There's no "secretly" if they're monitoring the rockets. Which, for the PKs, wouldn't be an issue. They can monitor a whole primitive planet already. Monitoring a bigger one for launches only? A single of their radars can do that.

I want to give my players at least a chance to learn the culture by making friends instead of captured. Now if they get captured because they go around and tell people they are from Earth and "beware my boom stick" they'll have whats coming to them, but not before having a chance to avoid it.

Great, but basically, I wouldn't see that as workable. The moment they land, at the latest, they're going to be spotted.
Though, you know, they can start like that...
And when their craft explodes behind them, their weapons explode as soon as they're not holding them, and both them and the observers would know why this planet is so damn hard to find.
If the observers don't happen to lose the signal much earlier, which is likely in my book. But that would also deliver the same message.

Besides, how do you expect them to communicate? Do they speak Gorean?
Again, about the only way that could work is if they take over a village and make the locals teach them Gorean. There's likely to be someone from Earth in the village to act as translator!

Mainly because its not enjoyable as a player when you have no control over things like that.

Your campaign, your decision. I'm just stating an opinion.

Of course, if the players decline, there always the prospect of Kur kidnapping... as you suggested

Or they can be contacted by agents of the Priest-Kings who would have a translator as well. That sounds more likely to me...again: they were monitored already.

 

[Northlandian]

You know, when you can move an entire planet and compensate for it gravitic field? Interference with the lights in the visible spectrum and projecting a pre-recorded message on a primitive machine like the Mars Lander wouldn't be ANY issue.

The PKs aren't infallible. All it takes is one lapse to create a window where the planet isnt completely hidden.

There's no "secretly" if they're monitoring the rockets. Which, for the PKs, wouldn't be an issue. They can monitor a whole primitive planet already. Monitoring a bigger one for launches only? A single of their radars can do that.

Officially its just another rocket to survey Mars. Once its cleared orbit and is en route is when the PCs vehicle would split from the main rocket, just drifting until enough time has passed on the gamble that it is viewed as just another piece of shed weight and that they "eyes" continue to be on the rocket that continues on its mission. Like how Han Solo tricks the Imperials in The Empire strikes back

Great, but basically, I wouldn't see that as workable. The moment they land, at the latest, they're going to be spotted.
Though, you know, they can start like that...
And when their craft explodes behind them, their weapons explode as soon as they're not holding them, and both them and the observers would know why this planet is so damn hard to find.
If the observers don't happen to lose the signal much earlier, which is likely in my book. But that would also deliver the same message.

Having their vehicle be spotted/found and destroyed IS a likely event Especially if the players make a low effort to hide it.

Besides, how do you expect them to communicate? Do they speak Gorean?
Again, about the only way that could work is if they take over a village and make the locals teach them Gorean. There's likely to be someone from Earth in the village to act as translator!

There are ways they can have learned Gorean while still on Earth by:
Interrogating captured Gorean agents
Finding a translator machine or taking one from Kur agents
One of the things Tarl Cabot sent to Harrison Smith was a Gorean - English dictionary which the organisation got hold of.

Your campaign, your decision. I'm just stating an opinion.

The short version is that I like players having agency. The longer version is that I can tell anecdotes about a GM who's flaw is that he puts his players into situations where they can't act. They're powerless and its just plain BORING.
I can give an example: Shadowrun. The characters are on their way to a mission and is being transported by submarine. The sub is spotted and ships on the surface deploy depth charges (or maybe it was underwater mines- I can't recall) And there is nothing for the players to do. The characters are professional enough not to interfere with the crew. So all they do is grab on to a bulkhead and wait for death or the explosions to stop. And since the chance that the GM wipes the party by a random roll is nil, there is no danger, no tension, no excitement.

Now I'm not saying having the players wake up naked on a planet with 3 moons, clean air and men on strange beasts armed with spears and shields approaches to enslave them is a bad way to start the game, but I would like to try something different
The risk runs to high that the players will start out hating the planet and its inhabitants.

Or they can be contacted by agents of the Priest-Kings who would have a translator as well. That sounds more likely to me...again: they were monitored already.

Secret assistance by teh PK would be a possibility as well since the PCs mission is against the Kur. They just "happen" to run into people who can help them, teach the language, and so on. But I don't want the PCs to rely on them.

The theme I want to present is that the PK actually want humanity to survive. Have them compare the "greedom" (greed + freedom) of earth that has lead the PK to believe earthlings will destroy themselves within 2 centuries either by war (more probable when the books were written) or by the current climate crisis with the PKs caretaking of Gor.
Maybe at the very end of the campaign the PK will allow the PC to return to earth, but only if they do so as agents of the priest-kings and use their earth organisation to strike against the Kur on earth (and send more earthlings to Gor)
Imagine the former FBI agent who used to work with finding missing people now being the one who marks out new people to go missing.
There is a reason why I consider this turning by the PKs as the end of the campaign.

Now a SECOND campaing can start, with new characters waking up on Gor, naked and lost. With the players knowing their former characters probably being the ones responsible.

 

[AsenRG]

The PKs aren't infallible. All it takes is one lapse to create a window where the planet isnt completely hidden.

Yes, but you know what many roleplayers think about those movies where the really powerful wizard is just absent-minded enough when it's convenient?
Also, I'm one of those roleplayers.

Officially its just another rocket to survey Mars.

So it is announced in the media.
Therefore, a drone the size of an egg is following it with a camera, including as a measure to hack its communications where Gor would be visible...
"Spotted at the beginning" remains my verdict.

Once its cleared orbit and is en route is when the PCs vehicle would split from the main rocket, just drifting until enough time has passed on the gamble that it is viewed as just another piece of shed weight and that they "eyes" continue to be on the rocket that continues on its mission. Like how Han Solo tricks the Imperials in The Empire strikes back

Yeah, it succeeding is one of those moments I referred to in this post.

Having their vehicle be spotted/found and destroyed IS a likely event Especially if the players make a low effort to hide it.

Actually, even if they do, the best they can achieve is delay it, IMO.

There are ways they can have learned Gorean while still on Earth by:
Interrogating captured Gorean agents
Finding a translator machine or taking one from Kur agents
One of the things Tarl Cabot sent to Harrison Smith was a Gorean - English dictionary which the organisation got hold of.

But you're talking about the first group to get to Gor - they're both on a rescue mission and an exploratory team. What "captured Gorean agents"? And I'm pretty sure those wear suicide capsules, anyway.

The short version is that I like players having agency. The longer version is that I can tell anecdotes about a GM who's flaw is that he puts his players into situations where they can't act. They're powerless and its just plain BORING.
I can give an example: Shadowrun. The characters are on their way to a mission and is being transported by submarine. The sub is spotted and ships on the surface deploy depth charges (or maybe it was underwater mines- I can't recall) And there is nothing for the players to do. The characters are professional enough not to interfere with the crew. So all they do is grab on to a bulkhead and wait for death or the explosions to stop. And since the chance that the GM wipes the party by a random roll is nil, there is no danger, no tension, no excitement.

Yeah, but you assume the issue is in the fact that the PCs can't act.
To me, the issue is in your last sentence: "the chance that the GM wipes the party by a random roll is nil". Why?
And if there's no such chance, he should just mention it in one sentence: "While you're being transported, the sub is spotted and ships on the surface deploy depth charges, but you survived...although now the extraction might be complicated, and sentries in the area where you're going would be on higher alert".

Now I'm not saying having the players wake up naked on a planet with 3 moons, clean air and men on strange beasts armed with spears and shields approaches to enslave them is a bad way to start the game, but I would like to try something different

Not "looking to enslave them", but "already handcuffed with heavy manacles". And of course, this way they can promptly be sold...to a PK agent.
"Kajira, translate: We have a message to remit to your gouvernment. There's this species called Kurii which eats humans. We'd like you to take some protective measures, since our sources say they've been infiltrating the governments of Earth."

The risk runs to high that the players will start out hating the planet and its inhabitants.

A SWAT team sent on a rescue mission NOT hating the kidnappers? It would be a miracle.
I'd write that off, and work to change their attitude in-game, personally.

Secret assistance by teh PK would be a possibility as well since the PCs mission is against the Kur. They just "happen" to run into people who can help them, teach the language, and so on. But I don't want the PCs to rely on them.

Of course not. They work for a different gouvernment, they're not going to become PK agents - too high odds of double-crossing. But they can still get occasional help.

The theme I want to present is that the PK actually want humanity to survive. Have them compare the "greedom" (greed + freedom) of earth that has lead the PK to believe earthlings will destroy themselves within 2 centuries either by war (more probable when the books were written) or by the current climate crisis with the PKs caretaking of Gor.
Maybe at the very end of the campaign the PK will allow the PC to return to earth, but only if they do so as agents of the priest-kings and use their earth organisation to strike against the Kur on earth (and send more earthlings to Gor)

Or, you know, they could be allowed to remain, if they want. A recorded message should be enough.

Imagine the former FBI agent who used to work with finding missing people now being the one who marks out new people to go missing.

In the case of Kur agents? I'd expect him to do so willingly. After all, they're the ones that do most of the kidnapping. And they're actually humans who work for a species that wants to enslave everyone.
Yeah, not much of a moral contradiction. Also, Kur agents should be aware that "going missing" is better than what they do to captured spies on Gor (impalement is popular).

There is a reason why I consider this turning by the PKs as the end of the campaign.

Obviously, I disagree. And again, it doesn't need to be "turning". It could be "cooperation". Or there could be an arrangement to go back to Gor...

Now a SECOND campaing can start, with new characters waking up on Gor, naked and lost. With the players knowing their former characters probably being the ones responsible.

That's actually a fun plan!

But I'd keep the same characters. Or you could have those characters being former Kur agents...which, by the end of the campaign, should be on the players "to hit" list.
Of course, my group is into playing the same characters over and over again, so I might have been influenced, here.

 

[Northlandian]

Yes, but you know what many roleplayers think about those movies where the really powerful wizard is just absent-minded enough when it's convenient?
Also, I'm one of those roleplayers.

Kur agents have been able to smuggle stuff like guns to gor under the priest kings nose without them being able to do anything about it for years already in Assassin of Gor. I also think you're mistake absent-mindedness with plain old Hubris -especially if the main adversary are the Kur. Priest Kings might be another matter, but they might just not care to interfere (since not interfering with the Players mission actually benefits them)

So it is announced in the media.
Therefore, a drone the size of an egg is following it with a camera, including as a measure to hack its communications where Gor would be visible...
"Spotted at the beginning" remains my verdict.'

As I have yet to read all the books (I'm about to start on Raiders) I don't know how the cold war has proceeded since then. But if the Kur is on the winning side they have limited the PKs ability to spy on Earth, and themselves have way to much overconfidence to be immune to Misdirection.

But you're talking about the first group to get to Gor - they're both on a rescue mission and an exploratory team. What "captured Gorean agents"? And I'm pretty sure those wear suicide capsules, anyway.

Sorry, I meant the Kur agents from Gor who undertake the kidnappings and purchase all the Earth goods. Just because they might be given suicide pills doenst mean they use them.

Yeah, but you assume the issue is in the fact that the PCs can't act.
To me, the issue is in your last sentence: "the chance that the GM wipes the party by a random roll is nil". Why?
And if there's no such chance, he should just mention it in one sentence: "While you're being transported, the sub is spotted and ships on the surface deploy depth charges, but you survived...although now the extraction might be complicated, and sentries in the area where you're going would be on higher alert".

This wasnt a hypothetical event, but something that really happened, and yes, the way you suggest would have been a better approach. I have no idea why he decided to let us act out the attack other than to make us feel powerless. But powerlessness without stakes have no meaning.

Not "looking to enslave them", but "already handcuffed with heavy manacles". And of course, this way they can promptly be sold...to a PK agent.
"Kajira, translate: We have a message to remit to your gouvernment. There's this species called Kurii which eats humans. We'd like you to take some protective measures, since our sources say they've been infiltrating the governments of Earth."

There is nothing wrong with this way to start a campaign, but neither is " you all sit at a tavern when suddenly a man rushes in and asks for some brave adventurers to kill some bandits/goblins/kobolds/orcs that have their lair/camp in the forest." Doesnt mean it has not been done to exhaustion and maybe I want my games to start in a more original manner.

Of course not. They work for a different gouvernment, they're not going to become PK agents - too high odds of double-crossing. But they can still get occasional help.

Exactly

Or, you know, they could be allowed to remain, if they want. A recorded message should be enough.

While the goal is to return to Earth with their target, this is a possible outcome. But consider the PCs affiliations and influence (especially if they return as heroes with the kidnapped presidents daughter) I think the Priest kings would prefer to use them as their agents on Earth, working against the Kur.

In the case of Kur agents? I'd expect him to do so willingly. After all, they're the ones that do most of the kidnapping. And they're actually humans who work for a species that wants to enslave everyone.
Yeah, not much of a moral contradiction. Also, Kur agents should be aware that "going missing" is better than what they do to captured spies on Gor (impalement is popular).

I don't think that I suggested the PCs to start working for the Kur (other than as double agents). My suggestion was that the PCs might start working for the Priest kings and continue finding suitable candidates to send to Gor. And they might even be volonteers, or not..

Obviously, I disagree. And again, it doesn't need to be "turning". It could be "cooperation". Or there could be an arrangement to go back to Gor...

Nobody said you needed to agree. I'm just happy to be able to discuss this game on a forum without being permabanned for even discussing this game.

But I'd keep the same characters. Or you could have those characters being former Kur agents...which, by the end of the campaign, should be on the players "to hit" list.
Of course, my group is into playing the same characters over and over again, so I might have been influenced, here.

As I'm currently running an epically long campaign I just thought that this time I'd go with a shorter one this time.
The idea to start over with new characters is more that that way they can make actual Goreans (since they now know the lore of the world better)

 

[AsenRG]

Kur agents have been able to smuggle stuff like guns to gor under the priest kings nose without them being able to do anything about it for years already in Assassin of Gor.

...and got destroyed as soon as they started using them. Not a good record, and not what you want for players.

I also think you're mistake absent-mindedness with plain old Hubris -especially if the main adversary are the Kur. Priest Kings might be another matter, but they might just not care to interfere (since not interfering with the Players mission actually benefits them)

Absent-mindedness, hubris, I don't think PKs are likely to be subject to either. Well, they might be prone to hubris, but I also believe they're quite professional-minded at the things they do.

As I have yet to read all the books (I'm about to start on Raiders) I don't know how the cold war has proceeded since then. But if the Kur is on the winning side they have limited the PKs ability to spy on Earth, and themselves have way to much overconfidence to be immune to Misdirection.

Now try "they're squarely on the losing side and have been basically ever since, some temporary successes notwithstanding". All their major offansives, whether intelligence or brute force ones, had been thwarted. The states under their influence, all contained. Their agents turned or eliminated.
And the PKs didn't even need to bother much. Most of this was accomplished by their human agents.

Sorry, I meant the Kur agents from Gor who undertake the kidnappings and purchase all the Earth goods. Just because they might be given suicide pills doenst mean they use them.

Yeah, so did I. And of course they do...just imagine having the Kur rescuing you!
Hint: You've just lost all status, you can't avoid the rescue team, and the rescue team is unhappy of needing to bother. And they might be hungry once they rescue you.

This wasnt a hypothetical event, but something that really happened, and yes, the way you suggest would have been a better approach. I have no idea why he decided to let us act out the attack other than to make us feel powerless. But powerlessness without stakes have no meaning.

I agree. So give it stakes.

There is nothing wrong with this way to start a campaign, but neither is " you all sit at a tavern when suddenly a man rushes in and asks for some brave adventurers to kill some bandits/goblins/kobolds/orcs that have their lair/camp in the forest."

Amusingly, I don't think I've ever done that at the start of a campaign...
There was an event where someone from the shenli (a.k.a. civilian...) went to an inn frequented by jianghu members and looks for mercenaries - but no "rushing in". More like "walk carefully with a couple of bodyguards, show some silver, make it clear you don't carry all the money, but offer it on completion".

Doesnt mean it has not been done to exhaustion and maybe I want my games to start in a more original manner.

Likewise, obviously.

While the goal is to return to Earth with their target, this is a possible outcome. But consider the PCs affiliations and influence (especially if they return as heroes with the kidnapped presidents daughter) I think the Priest kings would prefer to use them as their agents on Earth, working against the Kur.

But they also have bitter experience with agents that are unhappy with being returned (hint, Tarl Cabbot).
So they would probably ask about the agent's preferences. A temporary leave from Gor might well be negotiated, with the agent returning as ambassador if the US administration agrees...or just returning.
And of course, I suspect different PCs might have different takes on it. If so, those that return are officially KIA and can receive all the honours.

I don't think that I suggested the PCs to start working for the Kur (other than as double agents). My suggestion was that the PCs might start working for the Priest kings and continue finding suitable candidates to send to Gor. And they might even be volonteers, or not..

Yeah, they might be. But my point is the majority wouldn't be...what's better than having a Goruantanamo available?

It's more a matter of makign sure their superiors would only send Kur agents and not, say, suspected terrorists...

Nobody said you needed to agree. I'm just happy to be able to discuss this game on a forum without being permabanned for even discussing this game.

Likewise. Not that this is likely on most forums I frequent, but it is on some.

As I'm currently running an epically long campaign I just thought that this time I'd go with a shorter one this time.
The idea to start over with new characters is more that that way they can make actual Goreans (since they now know the lore of the world better)

Yeah, that works as well. But we Referees, like the PKs, have to also account for the possible desires of the players!

 

[Northlandian]

Yeah, they might be. But my point is the majority wouldn't be...what's better than having a Goruantanamo available?

Or a Gorulag. Having modern 20th century goverments access to Gor to send undesirables is a disconcerting thought.
But while Kur agents would use it for profit, I think the Priest Kings would use it to simply transplant humans from Earth to Gor and let them form a new society there in a unhabited place. ( a lot of "undesirables" for authoritarian governments are intelligent and educated people, which I think the PK would consider worthy of "saving")

Moving on to other matters, in the context of historical comparisons, the ratio of free people to slaves on Gor are so very low.
The amount of female slaves are 2-3% and the male slaves are only a fraction of that (less than 0.5%)
Compared to earth cultures where 20-30% of Viking society were thralls (though some sources think it was closer to 10%), the Romans had similar numbers of 20-30% while the Spartans had a whopping over 85% helots!

Such a low amount makes it seems that the economy of Gor societies really don't need slaves, they just carry on the practice due to tradition, and as a means to oppress women.

Another thing thats been rubbing me in wrong way is the manner Goreans view earth males as weak and natural slaves in front of Tarl Cabot, (an actual earth human) who could make a list counting the atrocities humans on Earth have committed to one another in just the last 100 years that would shut them up.

 

[AsenRG]

Or a Gorulag. Having modern 20th century goverments access to Gor to send undesirables is a disconcerting thought.
But while Kur agents would use it for profit, I think the Priest Kings would use it to simply transplant humans from Earth to Gor and let them form a new society there in a unhabited place. ( a lot of "undesirables" for authoritarian governments are intelligent and educated people, which I think the PK would consider worthy of "saving")

No, I don't think they'd get special treatment. After all, this is not a Priest-King project of transplanting people, and the surface of Gor already belongs to some other group. Unless they inhabit some island or something, but that raises the bar for the latter point/
Thus, they won't get a place to call their own, which disqualifies them from forming a distinct society, in the Gorean view: no Home Stone is a huge deal!

Besides, those are modern 21st century people...the damning part being "modern 21st century". Why do you think they'd know how to form a society on a world that's restricted to low-tech? Make food from unfamiliar plants and animals, using no machines other than muscle/animal/water-powered ones? Defend their society with sword and spear, against an onslaught of trained Warriors or tarnback?
Yeah, unlikely.
And of course, if they ever consider breaking the technological edicts...let's say the blue flame death can be dispensed to as many people as necessary.

So they'd still get to be slaves, even if they got their own island, just a couple years later.

But either way, they'd become slaves. Individuals amongst them - amongst the men, at any rate - would be allowed to get to a better positions, true. But that would be after they "go native", like Tarl.

OTOH, "undesirables" from some cultures would be much less distressed than those from the developed countries - if they're used to physical labour and are mentally prepared they should defend what is theirs, even using fists or weapons, they've got a major leg up on the rest of the prisoners.
And people from, ahem, certain insurgency groups (which would be sent to Gor in numbers, I'd bet) might even view a lot of features of Gorean life that would bug you and me if were were there, as features, not bugs.

Moving on to other matters, in the context of historical comparisons, the ratio of free people to slaves on Gor are so very low.
The amount of female slaves are 2-3% and the male slaves are only a fraction of that (less than 0.5%)
Compared to earth cultures where 20-30% of Viking society were thralls (though some sources think it was closer to 10%), the Romans had similar numbers of 20-30% while the Spartans had a whopping over 85% helots!

Yeah, I don't really believe the low numbers. That's what the book says; but I believe it's closer to historical Roman numbers or above...and certainly what is shown in the books mirrors my understanding.

After all, even that one city with close to 0 non-slave females (the one Tarl visited in book 2) should change those numbers significantly!

Such a low amount makes it seems that the economy of Gor societies really don't need slaves, they just carry on the practice due to tradition, and as a means to oppress women.

To me, it looks like they could transition to an economy of serfdom, like Medieval Europe...but the castes prevent that. Because you'd need to make whole castes, like Rence-Growers, Peasants, and the like, to be serfs.
But most Goreans would consider serfs to be basically slaves. You want a popular revolt, go ahead with that plan...the Ubar that tried it would get the High Ride, and things would go back to normal.

Mind you, Gorean rulers also impose "forced labour requirements" on communities under their power, but the difference is that then, the men who are sent, are being returned, and it doesn't count as "having been a slave" in their "community records". Instead, it counts as "having helped your city to fill an undesirable quota".
So a lot more Gorean males than expected would have been, what is in effect, slaves - but for a time only. OTOH, Gorean females can't really be slaves temporarily. The society imposes its requirements differently on them.
OTOH, I suspect the number of male "silk slaves" is a lot higher than reported. After all, independently wealthy Gorean women would have just as little reasons not to take one or more of those as any male. And Traders can often be female.

Another thing thats been rubbing me in wrong way is the manner Goreans view earth males as weak and natural slaves in front of Tarl Cabot, (an actual earth human) who could make a list counting the atrocities humans on Earth have committed to one another in just the last 100 years that would shut them up.

No, Goreans wouldn't value such atrocities as a sign of power. More like a sign of weakness - weaklings and cowards are much more often ruthless, because they know a potential second clash is unlikely to go their way. So, why didn't those rulers just enslave the targetted populations instead? Now, that would be a show of strength!
Granted, a show of strength over other weaklings, but strength all the same.
Also, and more importantly than philosophical musings - all the men of Earth they've seen captured, have been meek, obedient, and untrained in the use of "proper" weapons. To the Goreans, what is normal behaviour for Earth people of the so-called West/Developed World - avoiding a fight, for example, even when clearly provoked - marks them as "natural slaves". But, barring certain sub-cultures (which are likely to break other unwritten rules and be deemed weak for that), most Earthmen who end up on Gor would be like that...

Now, if they were of a non-warlike Caste (so not peasants, warriors, guardsmen and the like...which likely excludes PCs), the last point can be acceptable. But then Earth scientists would be unable to show much of their science on Gor, and certainly not in Gorean - so their pretenses would be laughed at. Medics wouldn't know how to heal using the means of Gorean physicians. Earth warriors wouldn't know how to use a javelin, sword and shield, so they'd be discarded just the same.
And so on, and so forth. Basically, Earthmen on Gor have a clear status: below outlaws until captured, then slaves.
Why? No caste, no homestone, and never having had such. It's a huge deal on Gor!
OTOH, someone from Rural India, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan or Nepal would have much less trouble, in all likelihood...in fact, rural inhabitants as a whole would - and the more used they are to living low-tech, the better. Or what about members of guerilla groups?
Yeah, those could get to thriving on Gor relatively quickly and requiring less adaptation (after learning the language).

 

[CRKrueger]

"Tarl is boring." Worse than virtually anything else. Maybe, if I loved everything else about the series, i would have continued reading it. Also, i had a very submissive girlfriend for four years when i was young and eventually got bored by the whole idea. She's a nun last i heard.

I basically agree with everything there, except I don't see a reason why you'd need to retire the male PCs if they get enslaved (I can see either allowing them to gain Honour or not, an argument can be made easily for either). How many of the characters in Norman books were the same way for a time?
As Norman states, slavery came around to reduce the need for killing all enemies. Use it as intended.


No, I don't "love everything else about the series". But I like the setting, as stated so many times, so I haven't given up on finishing the series, either...though I'm making big pauses. Like years-long ones.

Never had a gf that would be so submissive I'd get bored of it. Until today, I didn't think one like this would exist!
A nun is a weirdly fitting calling in this case.

You guys must not have encountered Nuns in Catholic School. They might submit to the Lord, of course, and maybe Priests when young, but get a few years on them and they’re more like Career Sergeants “taking orders” from Officers who couldn’t find their ass with both hands.

 

[AsenRG]

You guys must not have encountered Nuns in Catholic School. They might submit to the Lord, of course, and maybe Priests when young, but get a few years on them and they’re more like Career Sergeants “taking orders” from Officers who couldn’t find their ass with both hands.

WTH would I be doing at a Catholic school, assuming there was one nearby?
Well, maybe the answer is "a nun"...but then I wouldn't be seeing that part of her, would I?

 

[CRKrueger]

WTH would I be doing at a Catholic school, assuming there was one nearby?
Well, maybe a nun...but then I wouldn't be seeing that part of her, would I?

Oh yeah, Eastern Orthodox, your Nuns are monastic aren’t they?

 

[AsenRG]

Oh yeah, Eastern Orthodox, your Nuns are monastic aren’t they?

Not sure what you mean here. They do indeed live in monasteries, but in the past have been teaching in schools.

But they're definitely not found in Catholic schools.

 

[Northlandian]

Besides, those are modern 21st century people...the damning part being "modern 21st century". Why do you think they'd know how to form a society on a world that's restricted to low-tech? Make food from unfamiliar plants and animals, using no machines other than muscle/animal/water-powered ones? Defend their society with sword and spear, against an onslaught of trained Warriors or tarnback?
Yeah, unlikely.
And of course, if they ever consider breaking the technological edicts...let's say the blue flame death can be dispensed to as many people as necessary.

20th century, more specifically between 1930 and the 1960s (up until the priest kings had their civil war). It was just an idea how the PK might use periods of human history of great chaos and using arrests to cover up disappearances. People would be more inclined to believe people disappeared and died in prison camps/tried to run away and were eaten by wildlife/froze to death in the Siberian wilderness than being snatched away and be transported to another planet as slaves or as settlers.

Last huge transplantation were the native american indians between the 17th to 19th century (aka the Red savages in the books) which means that the PK have been transporting cultures an masse fairly recent, so I was just imaging if there has been a even more recent transplant than that or if there has only been all Voyages of acquisition since then. Before them there were the Pani which I imagine were japanese that vanished during the Sengoku era.
I have this theory about if you gonna transport people from earth to another planet in huge numbers, it would be easier to do so during conflicts or disasters as people will just assume a natural explanation.

OTOH, "undesirables" from some cultures would be much less distressed than those from the developed countries - if they're used to physical labour and are mentally prepared they should defend what is theirs, even using fists or weapons, they've got a major leg up on the rest of the prisoners.
And people from, ahem, certain insurgency groups (which would be sent to Gor in numbers, I'd bet) might even view a lot of features of Gorean life that would bug you and me if were were there, as features, not bugs.

I don't find it impossible either that some people would prefer resettling themselves on Gor over returning to earth and be persecuted by an oppressive regime.

Yeah, I don't really believe the low numbers. That's what the book says; but I believe it's closer to historical Roman numbers or above...and certainly what is shown in the books mirrors my understanding.

After all, even that one city with close to 0 non-slave females (the one Tarl visited in book 2) should change those numbers significantly!

Tharna, that went from 0% slaves to something like 99% at the end of the book

To me, it looks like they could transition to an economy of serfdom, like Medieval Europe...but the castes prevent that. Because you'd need to make whole castes, like Rence-Growers, Peasants, and the like, to be serfs.
But most Goreans would consider serfs to be basically slaves. You want a popular revolt, go ahead with that plan...the Ubar that tried it would get the High Ride, and things would go back to normal.

Mind you, Gorean rulers also impose "forced labour requirements" on communities under their power, but the difference is that then, the men who are sent, are being returned, and it doesn't count as "having been a slave" in their "community records". Instead, it counts as "having helped your city to fill an undesirable quota".
So a lot more Gorean males than expected would have been, what is in effect, slaves - but for a time only. OTOH, Gorean females can't really be slaves temporarily. The society imposes its requirements differently on them.
OTOH, I suspect the number of male "silk slaves" is a lot higher than reported. After all, independently wealthy Gorean women would have just as little reasons not to take one or more of those as any male. And Traders can often be female.

Right. The official numbers don't seem to measure up to the extent its displayed in the books.

No, Goreans wouldn't value such atrocities as a sign of power. More like a sign of weakness - weaklings and cowards are much more often ruthless, because they know a potential second clash is unlikely to go their way. So, why didn't those rulers just enslave the targetted populations instead? Now, that would be a show of strength!
Granted, a show of strength over other weaklings, but strength all the same.
Also, and more importantly than philosophical musings - all the men of Earth they've seen captured, have been meek, obedient, and untrained in the use of "proper" weapons. To the Goreans, what is normal behaviour for Earth people of the so-called West/Developed World - avoiding a fight, for example, even when clearly provoked - marks them as "natural slaves". But, barring certain sub-cultures (which are likely to break other unwritten rules and be deemed weak for that), most Earthmen who end up on Gor would be like that...

I have a feeling the slavers who pick the targets to be acquired might deliberately pick earth males that conforms to that stereotype, instead of someone hypermasculine jock.

Now, if they were of a non-warlike Caste (so not peasants, warriors, guardsmen and the like...which likely excludes PCs), the last point can be acceptable. But then Earth scientists would be unable to show much of their science on Gor, and certainly not in Gorean - so their pretenses would be laughed at. Medics wouldn't know how to heal using the means of Gorean physicians. Earth warriors wouldn't know how to use a javelin, sword and shield, so they'd be discarded just the same.

Some people practice martial arts like HEMA, archery and so forth though. Gor certainly has earth beat with advanced medicine, but its appearance is still that of mixing potions with alchemy and herbalism than the pharmaceutical industries of earth.

And so on, and so forth. Basically, Earthmen on Gor have a clear status: below outlaws until captured, then slaves.
Why? No caste, no homestone, and never having had such. It's a huge deal on Gor!
OTOH, someone from Rural India, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan or Nepal would have much less trouble, in all likelihood...in fact, rural inhabitants as a whole would - and the more used they are to living low-tech, the better. Or what about members of guerilla groups?
Yeah, those could get to thriving on Gor relatively quickly and requiring less adaptation (after learning the language).

true

 

[AsenRG]

20th century, more specifically between 1930 and the 1960s (up until the priest kings had their civil war). It was just an idea how the PK might use periods of human history of great chaos and using arrests to cover up disappearances. People would be more inclined to believe people disappeared and died in prison camps/tried to run away and were eaten by wildlife/froze to death in the Siberian wilderness than being snatched away and be transported to another planet as slaves or as settlers.

Oh well...then yes. But then, I should point out that Eartmen born in the 10s-40s, which your agents would be, would also be, in all likelihood, quite alien to modern people. Also, towards the earlier part of this, much less used to be reliant on technology. Riding was an accepted mode of transportation back then, as an example. I'd figure at least some of the riding beasts of Gor would be similar.
Also, I agree that conflicts would make it easier to transport people en masse. Or at least in significant numbers.

Last huge transplantation were the native american indians between the 17th to 19th century (aka the Red savages in the books) which means that the PK have been transporting cultures an masse fairly recent, so I was just imaging if there has been a even more recent transplant than that or if there has only been all Voyages of acquisition since then. Before them there were the Pani which I imagine were japanese that vanished during the Sengoku era.
I have this theory about if you gonna transport people from earth to another planet in huge numbers, it would be easier to do so during conflicts or disasters as people will just assume a natural explanation.

From what we know, the most recent mass transplant were indeed the Red Savages (and it should be pointed out that this is a honourable title on Gor - they are considered savage opponents, like the way the name Araukani was given).
And, yes, given their policies on white men, I'd suspect they were snatched during a conflict.

I don't find it impossible either that some people would prefer resettling themselves on Gor over returning to earth and be persecuted by an oppressive regime.

Neither would I...

Tharna, that went from 0% slaves to something like 99% at the end of the book

Well, more like 49,99%, but yes, that's the one.

Right. The official numbers don't seem to measure up to the extent its displayed in the books.

Indeed.
So just go with whatever share you have in mind. And my pet explanation is that the numbers were lower at a time, but that this was due to a time with less wars, or less wars that get to the stage of capturing prisoners en masse (which I think Tarl is told was the case in Book 1, after it was noted that Ar has been bucking the trend recently by starting big wars).

I have a feeling the slavers who pick the targets to be acquired might deliberately pick earth males that conforms to that stereotype, instead of someone hypermasculine jock.

Of course they would. Though even hypermasculine jocks would likely be no opponents for a Gorean with a blade...most of them wouldn't be used to handling blades at all. Thus they'd learn it on Gor, if at all.

Some people practice martial arts like HEMA, archery and so forth though.

Myself included!
I'm but a poor archer, though, since I only practiced it a few times. Well, I can hit stationary targets, usually...

Also, I can tell you that I wouldn't bet on the regular HEMA guy if faced with a Gorean warrior who has practical experience of killing people with a blade. It's...somewhat different.
Besides, no longswords are to be found on Gor.

Gor certainly has earth beat with advanced medicine, but its appearance is still that of mixing potions with alchemy and herbalism than the pharmaceutical industries of earth.

That's what the Caste of Medics lets the clients see, of course...
Try "reverting people to an earlier version of themselves and stopping the process at an age designated by the client" for a taste of what they can really do. It is in the later books...and it seemed not to be an expensive process, even if time-consuming (though it might have been a test, admittedly).
Granted, it's a recent development - the character they subjected to it might have been a test subject, as I said - but imagine where they were in your timeline and revert them back that many years. After all, they had defeated The Wasting Disease already!

true

Well, that's the biggest hurdle. And that's also the reason why I suggest "giving them Gorean patrons". Hey, it worked for Tarl, boring as he was!

 

[soltakss]

I feel that in any case, since none of my players ever heard about these books or the game the best course of action would be to let them start off as a group of people investigating various disappearances on Earth and found out earth people have been abducted by "aliens"

I would think that Gor would work well as a Bair and Switch game, or one where you are asked to write up a modern character and it gets whisked away to a Fantasy World. Something like QuestWorlds would be perfect for this, if you didn't fancy the mechanics in the Gor game.

You could pretty much gloss over the S&M elements and really not spoil the setting at all.

While I have only read a few books so far I expected it to be much worse.

The early books are OK, with a lot of flavour.

The middle books get a bit too much.

The later books are all S&M with very little background and flavour.

Although, it is a long time since I've read them.

If there is a Gor Wiki then that would be a good place to get the background, maybe, as would the Gor RPG.

 

[AsenRG]

I would think that Gor would work well as a Bair and Switch game, or one where you are asked to write up a modern character and it gets whisked away to a Fantasy World. Something like QuestWorlds would be perfect for this, if you didn't fancy the mechanics in the Gor game.

Of course. And depending on the venue, you might not have to bait and switch the players...in fact, I'd usually recommend against it.

You could pretty much gloss over the S&M elements and really not spoil the setting at all.

True.
Like, there are going to be slaves in the setting. That's not changeable.
But, you know, you could just gloss that part over, if the group isn't interested in it...it's even suggested as an approach in Tales of Gor. After all, an RPG group is going to omit what they don't find fun.

Or you could get creative...and not in typical Gorean ways.
Do you own slaves? That can vary...but at some point you are likely to, if you settle comfortably on Gor (say, as gifts). And then what are you going to do? Sell them off? Free them? (That's ill-advised, especially in cities where that makes you responsible for them...and your Gorean friends are going to think you mad).
Still, you could get creative there...especially if the GM is not a fan of the Gorean D/S approach, you could easily have them "tacitly freed", especially if they're former Earthlings as well. "I'll behave as you as a fellow Earthling should, but you pull your weight and pretend to be a slave in front of Goreans". Done. They should be clear that this is the best offer they weren't likely to get in the first place, so no problems should be incoming! (Or, depending on the NPC's personality, he or she might try to guilt-trip you into providing an easy life for him or her...which is likely to backfire with most PCs).

The early books are OK, with a lot of flavour.

The middle books get a bit too much.

I confirm.

The later books are all S&M with very little background and flavour.

Haven't read them all, but that also varies. I'd say there's a definite slump until about the books for the Delta Brigade and Tarl on the Steel Worlds. Now it seems to be picking up!
(My suspicions of a ghostwriter might also have some grounds in the improvement).

If there is a Gor Wiki then that would be a good place to get the background, maybe, as would the Gor RPG.

I don't know of one, but I'm not THAT into Gor. Just wanted to share my opinion on Gor being a more interesting S&P setting than it usually gets credit for!

 

[Northlandian]

But now I'm wondering what's in the other adventures that have been published (there's almost 10 so far on the Post Mortem page on Drivethru). Are they going to follow the same "progression" as the books?

Just so we can get the thread continuing.. I have all the adventures (there are 9 adventures + 2 sidequests) so since you never decided to go through them, I guess I can do it.

The one I decided to start with is the Sidequest: Game of worlds. It is the lowest rated on drivethrurpg at 2.7 (out of 5) with three reviews
The cover is a picture of a dark lake at the edge of a forest in shade of green with a nightsky full of stars. Over the forest hangs a round UFO saucer (one of the silver ships), reflecting in the lake.

In case anyone ver ends up playing this game or this adventure, I will not go into the detail of the plot to much.

The adventure is written by James 'Grim' Desborough and Ron Marshall.
The introduction tells us this adventure is a introductory adventure where earth humans are kidnapped and transported to Gor. This requires at least one of the players to be a human female, chosen to become the next acqusition by Kur agents while the other players should be a partner or sibling to the victim of the upcoming extraction. The authors mentions that players are free to play non-binary or transgender characters if they wish, but should be warned that it would be more challenging for them to do so.

Before the actual adventure, there is a picture of a earth woman (dressed like someone working in a office as a secretary. ) one of her high heels has come off and she is sitting on the floor, all tied up in ropes. She has the number 27 drawn on her face with a sharpie.

Act one starts on earth and consists of 4 scenes. The first scene is mostly with the character chosen to become kidnapped, but if several players are earth females, more players can play through this act.
Scene 2 takes part directly afterwards with the whole group where the player(s) who played through scene 1 can describe the strange event they just experienced to each other.
Scene 3 is an attempted abduction. But the players are supposed to escape.
Scene 4 is a chase scene that will end in the player characters imprisonment (because the adventure is a bit railroaded.) because the game cant continue to act 2 otherwise.
At the end of scene 4 is a picture of a classic ufo from the 1950s

Act 2 is set on Gor. Scene 1 starts up with the characters waking up, but not imprisoned by the Kur or sold as slaves.. Instead they are briefed by Goreans speaking very good english who tell them where they are. They are then taught the language and the culture in a series of events very similar to the first book where Tarl Cabot is brought to Gor, mirroring his experience.
This goes on for several scenes until scene 4 where the characters get a opportunity to show how well they have adapted to survive on Gor.
In this chapter there is a illustration of a Tarnsman wearing a greek style helmet sitting on a giant Tarn.

After this is act 3, which is just a single scene, to be played as a epilogue or a bridge into the next adventures the players can undertake on the world of Gor.
Lastly there are a few statblocks of various NPCs met in the adventure.

The second half of the book is Gamemaster resource detailing the "hidden war" that takes place on earth between Kur and Priest king agents as well as the government agencies who slowly becomes aware of the alien beings, either by being complicit in it by trading technology with them or simply secretly studying whatever artefacts they happen to come across.
Most of this is hinted but not detailed in the books, so the authors do make a disclaimer that most of this should be considered non-canonical.
For that reason ill go into more detail with the second half since its only speculation.

The authors mentions how this chapter could be used to run a tales of Gor campaign completely on earth, only dealing with the spy game part of the setting.
Fittingly, in this chapter there is a illustration of a man in black with a hand crossbow and a machete. (likely a undercover Gorean warrior, refusing to use the barbaric firearms earthlings use)
While the agents of Kur are being described as while not controlling the various government of earth, they have at least corrupted them with their promises of highly advanced technology to dominate the other nations. Not advanced enough to become a threat to the Kur, as well as neglecting to mention that they make similar deals to other nations of earth.
There is also descriptions of the Priest kings operations on earth but mention how the agents were left to fend for themselves after the nest war. Almost all new recruits to the Priest kings earth operations are now earth humans who somehow ran across the Kur operations and managed to escape.

After that comes a description of the trade between Gor and Earth, what the Kur agents desire (women and weapons) and what they are paying (youth treatments and immortality treatments, but weirdly also Gorean slaves. But not so weirdly really, as Gorean slaves are much more accepting of being slaves.

Lastly, the chapter describes 4 different organisations that deal with Goreans directly or indirectly. One is a Priest king cell that acts against the Kur and are "sort off" working for the Priest kings, but it's not sure the Priest kings are aware of their existance. Unless the players wants to work for Kur, this organisation is the best bet for a group of player characters to be on friendly terms with if they want to be the "heroes"

then there is 2 Kur organisations. One is a high tech company trading tech with the Kur while the other is a organized crime slave ring. Bad guys, natch.

Finally, the last organisation being described is a deep cover goverment agency under the jurisdiction of DARPA researching the technology the goverment have traded with the Kur. When not researching highly advanced tech, they keep a look out for humans who have witnessed UFOs or come across aliens and shuts them up. One way or another.
Its not like they work for the Kur though. Given the opportunity they would backstab them too if presented with a chance to come across a chunk of technology making it worthwhile.
They are not the one in black hats or white hats. Their hats are any shade of Gray that suits them for the moment.

The book ends with a section of earth skills that might not be so useless after all and some statblocks of various NPCs characters can come across on earth from the different organisations.

Verdict: I get why this is the lowest rated of the adventures. The adventure is very railroaded and not very original, but its somewhere to start.
I like the section dealing with earth operations, but I can understand if you're not planning to play on earth you find it useless.

 

[AsenRG]

Just so we can get the thread continuing.. I have all the adventures (there are 9 adventures + 2 sidequests) so since you never decided to go through them, I guess I can do it.

The one I decided to start with is the Sidequest: Game of worlds. It is the lowest rated on drivethrurpg at 2.7 (out of 5) with three reviews
The cover is a picture of a dark lake at the edge of a forest in shade of green with a nightsky full of stars. Over the forest hangs a round UFO saucer (one of the silver ships), reflecting in the lake.

In case anyone ver ends up playing this game or this adventure, I will not go into the detail of the plot to much.

The adventure is written by James 'Grim' Desborough and Ron Marshall.
The introduction tells us this adventure is a introductory adventure where earth humans are kidnapped and transported to Gor. This requires at least one of the players to be a human female, chosen to become the next acqusition by Kur agents while the other players should be a partner or sibling to the victim of the upcoming extraction. The authors mentions that players are free to play non-binary or transgender characters if they wish, but should be warned that it would be more challenging for them to do so.

Before the actual adventure, there is a picture of a earth woman (dressed like someone working in a office as a secretary. ) one of her high heels has come off and she is sitting on the floor, all tied up in ropes. She has the number 27 drawn on her face with a sharpie.

Act one starts on earth and consists of 4 scenes. The first scene is mostly with the character chosen to become kidnapped, but if several players are earth females, more players can play through this act.
Scene 2 takes part directly afterwards with the whole group where the player(s) who played through scene 1 can describe the strange event they just experienced to each other.
Scene 3 is an attempted abduction. But the players are supposed to escape.
Scene 4 is a chase scene that will end in the player characters imprisonment (because the adventure is a bit railroaded.) because the game cant continue to act 2 otherwise.
At the end of scene 4 is a picture of a classic ufo from the 1950s

Act 2 is set on Gor. Scene 1 starts up with the characters waking up, but not imprisoned by the Kur or sold as slaves.. Instead they are briefed by Goreans speaking very good english who tell them where they are. They are then taught the language and the culture in a series of events very similar to the first book where Tarl Cabot is brought to Gor, mirroring his experience.
This goes on for several scenes until scene 4 where the characters get a opportunity to show how well they have adapted to survive on Gor.
In this chapter there is a illustration of a Tarnsman wearing a greek style helmet sitting on a giant Tarn.

After this is act 3, which is just a single scene, to be played as a epilogue or a bridge into the next adventures the players can undertake on the world of Gor.
Lastly there are a few statblocks of various NPCs met in the adventure.

The second half of the book is Gamemaster resource detailing the "hidden war" that takes place on earth between Kur and Priest king agents as well as the government agencies who slowly becomes aware of the alien beings, either by being complicit in it by trading technology with them or simply secretly studying whatever artefacts they happen to come across.
Most of this is hinted but not detailed in the books, so the authors do make a disclaimer that most of this should be considered non-canonical.
For that reason ill go into more detail with the second half since its only speculation.

The authors mentions how this chapter could be used to run a tales of Gor campaign completely on earth, only dealing with the spy game part of the setting.
Fittingly, in this chapter there is a illustration of a man in black with a hand crossbow and a machete. (likely a undercover Gorean warrior, refusing to use the barbaric firearms earthlings use)
While the agents of Kur are being described as while not controlling the various government of earth, they have at least corrupted them with their promises of highly advanced technology to dominate the other nations. Not advanced enough to become a threat to the Kur, as well as neglecting to mention that they make similar deals to other nations of earth.
There is also descriptions of the Priest kings operations on earth but mention how the agents were left to fend for themselves after the nest war. Almost all new recruits to the Priest kings earth operations are now earth humans who somehow ran across the Kur operations and managed to escape.

After that comes a description of the trade between Gor and Earth, what the Kur agents desire (women and weapons) and what they are paying (youth treatments and immortality treatments, but weirdly also Gorean slaves. But not so weirdly really, as Gorean slaves are much more accepting of being slaves.

Lastly, the chapter describes 4 different organisations that deal with Goreans directly or indirectly. One is a Priest king cell that acts against the Kur and are "sort off" working for the Priest kings, but it's not sure the Priest kings are aware of their existance. Unless the players wants to work for Kur, this organisation is the best bet for a group of player characters to be on friendly terms with if they want to be the "heroes"

then there is 2 Kur organisations. One is a high tech company trading tech with the Kur while the other is a organized crime slave ring. Bad guys, natch.

Finally, the last organisation being described is a deep cover goverment agency under the jurisdiction of DARPA researching the technology the goverment have traded with the Kur. When not researching highly advanced tech, they keep a look out for humans who have witnessed UFOs or come across aliens and shuts them up. One way or another.
Its not like they work for the Kur though. Given the opportunity they would backstab them too if presented with a chance to come across a chunk of technology making it worthwhile.
They are not the one in black hats or white hats. Their hats are any shade of Gray that suits them for the moment.

The book ends with a section of earth skills that might not be so useless after all and some statblocks of various NPCs characters can come across on earth from the different organisations.

Verdict: I get why this is the lowest rated of the adventures. The adventure is very railroaded and not very original, but its somewhere to start.
I like the section dealing with earth operations, but I can understand if you're not planning to play on earth you find it useless.

Cool. I have them as well, but as I said, I haven't read them - since I'd greatly prefer to play the game, and wouldn't want to restrict a potential GM...

Can I just ask you to put the next posts in a spoileblock? Then I can decide whether to read them or not.

 

[Northlandian]

Cool. I have them as well, but as I said, I haven't read them - since I'd greatly prefer to play the game, and wouldn't want to restrict a potential GM...

Can I just ask you to put the next posts in a spoileblock? Then I can decide whether to read them or not.

Sure. Good thing I started with the one that people probably won't be playing.
And I will go into even less detail in the next one as I think i gave away to much. Probably just a brief synopsis anyway. But I'll put it in spoiler blocks still.

Should descriptions of illustrations be blocked too?
Some of the adventures have added rules at the end for specific situations, do you think those should be in spoiler block?

 

[AsenRG]

Sure. Good thing I started with the one that people probably won't be playing.
And I will go into even less detail in the next one as I think i gave away to much. Probably just a brief synopsis anyway. But I'll put it in spoiler blocks still.

Thank you.

Should descriptions of illustrations be blocked too?
Some of the adventures have added rules at the end for specific situations, do you think those should be in spoiler block?

Not for me. Well, unless you plan to include descriptions of maps as illustrations, but I kinda doubt that.

 

[Northlandian]

Now, where were we?

Right. Where I go through the adventures for Tales of Gor without spoiling to much.

The very first, 01, adventure is called “The tower of art”. It is written by James ‘Grim’ Desborough and was probably at one point supposed to be called “The towers of Ar” because that's what the adventure is called in the introduction.
I can only guess it changed name in case any GM wanted to run the adventure set in any other of the cities that has those huge cylinders that Ar in particular is known for.

The cover art is the same as for the last edition of the first book “Tarnsman of Gor” with a tarnsman, standing on a hill with his tarn overlooking a city of cylinders that is presumably Ar. (or just about any Gorean city that has cylinders)

The non-spoiler version of the adventure is that The players are hired by some people to go to a particular city, to a particular cylinder, enter it and then proceed through it until they find a particular item their employer wants and return with it.

Spoiler section

Spoiler: spoilers

The spoiler version starts with the players hired by an initiate to escort him through some non-dangerous territory to a temple. The timing is right after Cosian occupation of Ar with the forces of Ar reclaiming much of its surrounding territory making it a somewhat safe area so it is easy money for the players
Assuming there is no sign of deceitfulness from the players the initiate takes a liking to them and asks them to remain a bit after the escort is over since he might have some additional bit of work for them.
After supper the initiate takes them to see an old beggar that the players should have noticed earlier as they arrived at the temple. The men explain they are both agents of the priest-kings and offer them a bit of work, not just for money but for the continued safety of Gor.’
If the players accept they are given a mission to go to Ar and fetch, or destroy a mysterious artifact that the Cosians left behind as they left.

But just entering Ar not to mention the tower the artefact is held at has its own sets of troubles, so there are various ways the players can decide to do this from smuggling themselves in a carriage, bluffing or persuading the paranoid guards or even landing on the tower by Tarn.

The tower itself is then a reversed dungeon where the players have to make it through floor by floor, fighting off guards until they reach the library at the top floor where the artefact is.
The library only has two occupants, a free woman and her slave girl, that can be persuaded to tell where among the exotic collection the artefact is. Players rummaging through the collection of stuff gathered here may find some trinkets of earth origin like clothes, glasses and watches. The artefact itself is a mysterious glowing sphere that a man of earth can see is obviously alien, surpassing anything that can be made on earth

Illustrations: the adventure has some illustrations but parts of them need to be described in spoilers as they give some things away.

The first is of a beggar and an initiate standing next to him. The beggar is blind and is sitting down while leaning on his staff in one hand and holds a beggar bowl in the other. His hair is messy and so is his beard. The initiate is almost bald with extremely short hair.

The next picture is that of a Gorean warrior. He is wearing a Corinthian style helmet and has a shortsword strapped to his waist.

Next picture is that of a free woman in robes of concealment. She is holding a piece of parchment in one hand and looks shocked at what she is reading. Her veil is transparent enough to show her mouth open in astonishment and is low cut enough to show part of her cleavage.

The final picture is that of a kneeling slave girl holding the piece of art the players have been contracted to steal. She is wearing a short tunic and her hair is in a ponytail.

Spoiler: spoiler for illustrations

The image of the initiate and the beggar are of course the two agents that have hired the players.

The image of the woman in robes of concealment is likely the free woman who resides in the library.

The image of the slave girl is of the slave girl that belongs to the free woman. She is wearing dark sunglasses even if the text describes them as regular glasses and is holding in her hands a golden orb that is shining with energy.

After the adventure there is a NPC section where the npcs of the adventure are described and statted.

At the end of the book there is a section of optional rules describing Specialties for various skills that lets one add +1d6 to the roll in some circumstances.