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We need a popcorn emoji... okay, since it is the Pub... a pretzel
This is a really good point - The D&D Red Box still works as an excellent introductory gateway, and one cannot understate how well designed it was for the time.I also think the Holmes, Molvay/Cook and especially the Mentzer boxset contributed significantly to the growth and sustainabilty of D&D. I know this will make the Gygaxians gnash their teeth but if all people had was the 1e PHB and DMG I think D&D would have been in much greater danger of being eclipsed by WFRP or RQ.
This is a really good point - The D&D Red Box still works as an excellent introductory gateway, and one cannot understate how well designed it was for the time.
*Cough*Raymond E Feist*Cough*Minor nitpick: Robert Jordan and David Eddings are my go-to examples for "non-obviously influenced by D&D, class and level included" fantasy.
Sure which is why I explicitly incorporated that in my Majestic Wilderlands setting. Many of the sentient races originated as human magically altered by demons into a servitor race. Dwarves, Halflings, lizardmen, centaurs, orcs, goblins, etc, etc. When the demons were imprisoned, those humans were enslaved along with the above races were free to forge their own destiny in the world.I think, on the whole, demihumans are just lazy human stereotypes as used in D&D, but the stereotypes themselves make it easy to build a character, cookie-cutter style.
Yup, Feist's book were set in the past of the World of Midkemia the campaign he was involved with during college.*Cough*Raymond E Feist*Cough*
Actually, maybe that's more along the lines of 'Obviously influenced by D&D.'
I recently got into an internet debate with an OSR designer who insisted the Red Box CYOA was a precursor to the 'linear' adventure design of the hated DL and 2e-era and was shit.
Well, 'short-hand' then. I think that basically most gamers, and fantasy enthusiasts, understand the stereotypes of each of the Tolkienesque Demihumans, and can play them accordingly without need of heavy research or the like. That isn’t, for me, an issue of preference - I’m perfectly happy playing D&D that way, although for a fantasy setting used in a novel or in a game bought to achieve some depth, then I probably wouldn’t want to include them as a trope. I’d criticise Castle Falkenstein as an example of a preferred setting for me, that I thought shouldn’t have included Tolkienesque Dwarves.It's not fair to refer to anything which is a preference as lazy.
It's not lazy to put your own take on what you enjoy... doing otherwise is a disservice to your intention.
Saying that using something is lazy is actually just a condescending way to tell people that they should do things like you prefer instead. I don't agree it is a valid or genuine argument to make to anyone.
I agree with pretty much every word you just wrote hereLots of good points throughout this thread.
I think market dominance cannot be discounted. When I was a kid/teen D&D was the only thing on the shelf at the comicbook/gamestore. It wasn't until years later I discovered the genius of CoC and Pendragon and they were single books tucked away on the shelf.
When I went into the local comic/games store a few years ago to check out D&D 5e it was the exact same situation except there was no sign of Pendragon.
The noted timing of D&D coinciding with the huge popularity of Tolkien can also not be underestimated (and makes the popularity of disclaiming the obvious influence by the OSR all the more ironic).
As for the game itself, the kitchensink nature of its fantasy was an actual benefit; the solid core of AC, HP for a simple combat system; the clarity of running the restrictive setting of a dungeon being a good starter for new DMs; the extensive Monster bestriary and spells/magic items and what I consider the dirty secret of D&D: its steep HP and power curve makes it an effective powerfantasy for kids, teens and adults compared to its 'grittier' fantasy competitors.
I also think the Holmes, Molvay/Cook and especially the Mentzer boxset contributed significantly to the growth and sustainabilty of D&D. I know this will make the Gygaxians gnash their teeth but if all people had was the 1e PHB and DMG I think D&D would have been in much greater danger of being eclipsed by WFRP or RQ.
D&D is just to RPGs what Saturday Night Live is to TV sketch comedy.
Well, when someone writes a fantasy novel based on the events of his campaign, the influence of D&D is kinda obvious.*Cough*Raymond E Feist*Cough*
Actually, maybe that's more along the lines of 'Obviously influenced by D&D.'
Sounds ike a fun designer who makes really great stuff
Well, 'short-hand' then. I think that basically most gamers, and fantasy enthusiasts, understand the stereotypes of each of the Tolkienesque Demihumans, and can play them accordingly without need of heavy research or the like. That isn’t, for me, an issue of preference - I’m perfectly happy playing D&D that way, although for a fantasy setting used in a novel or in a game bought to achieve some depth, then I probably wouldn’t want to include them as a trope. I’d criticise Castle Falkenstein as an example of a preferred setting for me, that I thought shouldn’t have included Tolkienesque Dwarves.
In his case, I see that as coincidence and not causality. He was a Gamer, but he wasn't only a gamer. his stuff had a lot more depth than a typical D&D novel and was more reminiscent of typical fantasy than typical D&D love letters.Well, when someone writes a fantasy novel based on the events of his campaign, the influence of D&D is kinda obvious.
And unsurprisingly, robertsconley has already provided us with links, too!
Sure, but it was influenced by events in the campaign, most characters fit easily into classes, and so on. I call that "obvious influence", and I doubt Feist himself would have tried to deny it.In his case, I see that as coincidence and not causality. He was a Gamer, but he wasn't only a gamer. his stuff had a lot more depth than a typical D&D novel and was more reminiscent of typical fantasy than typical D&D love letters.
Okay, fair enough. I see what you are getting at.Sure, but it was influenced by events in the campaign, most characters fit easily into classes, and so on. I call that "obvious influence", and I doubt Feist himself would have tried to deny it.
He did the best he could do with the above elements, and please note that I'm not saying his books are worse because of it!
Then again, he notes that "they've mostly replaced the rules with their own houserules", and we don't know how much of D&D remained after that, but some influence is still "obvious", which is what I was claiming.
For the same reason I would add Vlad Taltos and Traxas to the list of "obviously influenced" books. Whether I like or dislike them (one of them more than the other) has no bearing upon that.
For TV and movies... fraggle Rock piqued my interest when I was a little kid, beast Master and Krull sealed it. I was on a freefall into fantasy ever since.I'm trying to remember the first 'fantasy' I was aware of. Probably fairy tales, children's books, Disney movies... TV show reruns like Bewitched and I Dream Of Jeannie.
The real fantasy on I Dream Of Jeannie is that Larry Hagman somehow resisted the charms Barbara Eden.
Also... This!
Well, I would say the 90s are possibly D&D’s lowest ebb so far. Interest amongst establish players was dropping, though D&D remained an easy game to get into, which means a new source of players to counter the attrition of people moving in to another game.I'm not convinced that was responsible for D&D's sustained success. In the 70s and 80s, it was a good mechanism for introducing players into the game... both wargammers and complete newbies alike. But by the 90s, playing styles had evolved and tastes in media had changed.
I think market dominance cannot be discounted. When I was a kid/teen D&D was the only thing on the shelf at the comicbook/gamestore. It wasn't until years later I discovered the genius of CoC and Pendragon and they were single books tucked away on the shelf.
I don’t know what the fuck people are thinking when they make their game a joke. Paranoia and Hackmaster are one thing, they’re designed as parodies. The joke crap was one of the reasons I flushed T&T after one flip through in 1985. It’s not a board game. I’m supposed to be pretending to be a character in a setting that is a comedy skit. No thanks.Tunnels and Trolls could have been a good contender had the spell names not been open to being called silly and childish that combined with the simplified rules made it easy to dismiss as a lesser game.
Perhaps they find it fun.I don’t know what the fuck people are thinking when they make their game a joke. Paranoia and Hackmaster are one thing, they’re designed as parodies. The joke crap was one of the reasons I flushed T&T after one flip through in 1985. It’s not a board game. I’m supposed to be pretending to be a character in a setting that is a comedy skit. No thanks.
Well, obviously, but T&T isn’t really a parody or satire game. Whimsy and humor are one thing, Full.Xanth is another. Who is going to continually run a joke game over weeks, months, years. Not many. They’re going to be side games, something to do for fun every once in a while.Perhaps they find it fun.