xP for Spending Gold vs. Earning Gold

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Not sure how many systems encourage awarding XP for spending gold vs. earning it. I’m sure it isn’t a unique thought, and I’m not sure where I may have read it at this point but I am considering using it.

Any thoughts on how such an implementation will affect games that originally award earning instead of spending?

And anyone have any idea on where I might have seen it implemented before in any old school games?
 
Maybe it was Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea and it's optional "Drunken Debauchery" rules?
I think something like this works well in a sword & sorcery game, where the adventurers are always seemingly down on their luck waiting for their next scheme/opportunity/heist/whatever, particularly if there is downtime between adventures. The type of game where it wouldn't work, is where the late-game goal is ostensibly to save up enough scratch to build your own stronghold and rule a principality (ala AD&D, et al.)
 
Barbarians of Lemuria uses this device. More specifically it asks you to describe how your character squandered all the loot from the previous adventure. It fits the genre and the episodic default of the system because if on one hand you want characters to seek out fabulous treasure, you don't necessarily want them to retire after their outing. Bear in mind money isn't really a key part of character progression in BoL.
 
RuneQuest has purchasing spells and training as a major part of character progression.

One thing that may be a consideration if you are looking at a game like early D&D where eventually establishing a castle or other base and hiring troops and such is whether you want to change the progression at that point, or make spending on your castle and troops earn XP.

In general though, I prefer games that give you something to spend your treasure on. Another option besides spending on training or debauchery is a reasonable system for purchasing magic items. In my college friend's home brew, Cold Iron, most magic items that PCs use are potions or "charged" items that have a limited life so they get consumed. That essentially turns into spending money to get XP since with magic items you can defeat more powerful enemies. Though paradoxically, when I was planning my Cold West Iron Marches, I was contemplating giving XP ONLY for treasure collected with the idea of removing my subjectivity from XP awards.
 
Barbarians of Lemuria uses this device. More specifically it asks you to describe how your character squandered all the loot from the previous adventure. It fits the genre and the episodic default of the system because if on one hand you want characters to seek out fabulous treasure, you don't necessarily want them to retire after their outing. Bear in mind money isn't really a key part of character progression in BoL.
That’s exactly it! I knew it was something I’d read up on recently. Just got the screen, cards, and book a few months ago from DTRPG…
 
I plan on using Castles & Crusades (with maybe a little Amazing Adventures thrown in) for a swords & sorcery game, for the context of my questions. Still gnawing on setting ideas and picking up the three C&C books I don’t already have. And waiting for the CK Screen from the KS.
 
BoL was where I first encountered it, but I use it for any game set in a sword & sorcery setting. In my Crypts & Things game last night, the party was debating doing another job for a local warlord or heading back to the city to spend the loot they already had. By "spend" they meant convert it into xp, which can be done on a 1-for-1 basis by blowing it on extravagant public parties and associated debaucheries where the wine and lotus powder flow freely. Demonstrating your success as an adventurer is a public statement that leads to more offers of employment from ever more powerful patrons, as well as ever better hirelings to carry your gear and guard your horses. This xp mechanic can be used alone or in combination with others. Obviously it doesn't fit with every setting.

How does it change the game? If I were only using the xp mechanic in the RAW, this interesting debate about whether or not to return to the city would not have taken place. Now they have an extra incentive to take some R&R between each adventure. They are more likely to level between adventures rather than during them. More days are spent in traveling. All of this is positive in my opinion. In my current campaign, less than have of their xp is earned in this way. I wish I had made it a larger fraction from the beginning.
 
Yup, BoL uses it, The Black Hack has a limited version, Swords of the Serpentine has something similar. I find it's pretty common in Swords and Sorcery games where one of the genre tropes the easy-come easy-go nature of wealth. Conan, for example, steals fortunes over the course of his career but is also often penniless at various times.
 
I was going to start a new thread I found this one so it's time for thread necromancy. I am working on a campaign and dithering over whether to reward XP for gold retrieved through adventuring or gold spent.

I'm familiar with rewarding XP for gold retrieved through adventuring. It's a solid, tried and true system. I mix it up by incentivizing exploration and extraordinary experiences, making up roughly 25% of XP earned. There's minimal bookkeeping.

Into the Unknown rewards XP for spending gold. While I like the flavor of spending gold on downtime activities for XP it feels like an unnecessary extra step. Is there an added benefit to XP for spending gold that is worth the extra bookkeeping?

I already have a neat little downtime system that expanded on the material presented in XGtE and On Downtime and Demesnes. While it was really cool it was a hassle emailing 6 players to make their downtime choices and then make their rolls, presenting a little narrative for the results and tracking it all.

Obviously it's silly to think that the treasure in itself grants experience, but what the PCs had to do to get it does.
 
I've always liked the idea of being able to get XP by spending gold on lessons. For example, if you can gain XP by fighting some goblins, why should you not also be able to gain XP by paying an expert swordsman to spar with you for a bit?

It seems to me that this would encourage people to spend their gold instead of hoarding it, while also not rewarding people for buying powerful gear with an additional XP bonus on top.
 
It seems to me that this would encourage people to spend their gold instead of hoarding it, while also not rewarding people for buying powerful gear with an additional XP bonus on top.
My apologies, I thought it was understood that when spending gold for XP, it can't be spent on anything with a tangible benefit. It's spent on RP fluff with zero benefit like carousing, philanthropy, spiritual supplication, esoteric research etc
 
My apologies, I thought it was understood that when spending gold for XP, it can't be spent on anything with a tangible benefit. It's spent on RP fluff with zero benefit like carousing, philanthropy, spiritual supplication, esoteric research etc

That's pretty much how I do it. Training, partying, tithing, research, that sort of thing. The only exception is if if the PCs buy or do something maintain or upkeep property (a keep, an inn, a church, etc) since that's the sort of thing I like to encourage, as it helps to get the players invested in that particular part of the game world.
 
That's pretty much how I do it. Training, partying, tithing, research, that sort of thing. The only exception is if if the PCs buy or do something maintain or upkeep property (a keep, an inn, a church, etc) since that's the sort of thing I like to encourage, as it helps to get the players invested in that particular part of the game world.
I would appreciate you describing what the extra step brings to your table. The reason I ask is because I need to keep bookkeeping to a minimum for this project and have to strip anything that isn't crucial.
 
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I would appreciate you describing what makes the extra step brings to your table. The reason I ask is because I need to keep bookkeeping to a minimum for this project and have to strip anything that isn't crucial.

If bookkeeping is a hassle for you, then it may not be. It's not something I mind, so it's not a problem for me. It's not something that comes up for every player for every session, which makes it easier (I give out XP for other stuff besides killing critters, so it's not something they're obligated to do to advance at a decent rate). For some players what form this takes (studying as opposed to carousing, for example) is a part of their character. For others, it's just something they occasionally do when they're *this* close to hitting the next level.
 
Also, it's a great way to feed new rumors and plot hooks to the PCs, whether it be via the people you're partying and carousing with, the master you're training under, the ancient tomes you're studying, or the visions you have while in prayer.
 
If bookkeeping is a hassle for you, then it may not be. It's not something I mind, so it's not a problem for me. It's not something that comes up for every player for every session, which makes it easier (I give out XP for other stuff besides killing critters, so it's not something they're obligated to do to advance at a decent rate). For some players what form this takes (studying as opposed to carousing, for example) is a part of their character. For others, it's just something they occasionally do when they're *this* close to hitting the next level.
Thanks for weighing in on this. Maybe you can share your bookkeeping tricks some time. I want to implement a cool downtime system in between sessions but I don't know how to execute it without it becoming a hassle. I did it for 24 sessions and it turned into more work than prepping for the actual sessions.
 
Not sure how many systems encourage awarding XP for spending gold vs. earning it. I’m sure it isn’t a unique thought, and I’m not sure where I may have read it at this point but I am considering using it.

Any thoughts on how such an implementation will affect games that originally award earning instead of spending?

And anyone have any idea on where I might have seen it implemented before in any old school games?
Can't believe never responded as a subject close to my heart. Skipped right to answer. Have seen it before (can't recall if a game or forum).

I like spending that is within your "idiom" and the classic swords & sorcery types: (1) sorcerer with an elaborate lab and library who spends on "research" and magical musings, (2) sorcerer building a tower, (3) a warrior setting up a hall, (4) a scoundrel who gambles it away, (5) a barbarian who spends all on wine, women and song, (5) a skald who spends carousing with others, (6) the priest who invests it in their home temple, (7) templars who provide exquisite votive offerings, (8) improve your home base, (9) giving gifts to followers (10) a Beastmaster preening over their animal companions, (11) a sorcerer preening over their familiar.

That spend is how you convert gold into xp. I prefer it this way greatly to straight 1 gp = 1xp.
 
I used to be a fan of the idea of high living as the driving force behind XP in D&D-style games, but my preference now is the standard xp for acquiring gold, combined with useful things to spend the gold on -- such as estates, hirelings, castles, magical workshops, guild operating expenses, investment opportunities etc ...

Having the PCs actually building things in game, bedding themselves into the social and power structures, is much more interesting to me that having wealth just vanish with some accompanying flavour text.
 
My apologies, I thought it was understood that when spending gold for XP, it can't be spent on anything with a tangible benefit. It's spent on RP fluff with zero benefit like carousing, philanthropy, spiritual supplication, esoteric research etc
That would be my take - you are exchanging one resource for another.

Nowadays I would be happy to have gold for XP/training in a non level based system - so Runequest/Traveller and the like, but prefer to keep my PC's in step with each other in other games.

I would probably implement it for T&T, because the levels in dT&T are derived from attribute increases, so it could work there as well.
 
I've always used spending gold to earn XP. Keeps the PCs lean and motivated to continue adventuring - ie, they have no money as they've spent it on 'things' in order to level up.

How it's spent and what it is spent on produces different XP awards and can vary depending on character class (and the games I've run and campaign world) but the core idea is to stop players hoarding gold as its useless to them if the want to continue adventuring and advancing.
 
I am in a campaign where the bulk of our XP comes from spending gold. I despise it. It doesn't fucking motivate me and frankly a bit insulting as I am quite capable of motivating myself thank you. Finding ways to spend my gold is a distraction to what I want to accomplish as my character and since my goals require that I have more experience. It has so far locked me into a cycle of having to pick adventures based on how much gold they return along with wandering the fucking wilderness so I can find another settlement to spend gold.

All of which are irrelevant to my character. Which is basically a halfling magic-user who is evil whose is to use spells like charms and illusions to manipulate people to foment chaos. Doesn't really care about wealth beyond the necessities of survival.

And just as a note, I enjoy the people I am with, and the adventure while irrelevant to my character's goals is well run by the referee and the variant of classic D&D we are using has its highlight. Plus the look on other players' faces is totally worth it when the character wrecks a group of opposing NPCs when that happens. Mainly by roleplaying in a way that has the group fighting among themselves within a few days and wrecking everything they have in the process. Allowing the group to waltz in and clean up the remnants.
 
I am in a campaign where the bulk of our XP comes from spending gold. I despise it. It doesn't fucking motivate me and frankly a bit insulting as I am quite capable of motivating myself thank you. Finding ways to spend my gold is a distraction to what I want to accomplish as my character and since my goals require that I have more experience. It has so far locked me into a cycle of having to pick adventures based on how much gold they return along with wandering the fucking wilderness so I can find another settlement to spend gold.

All of which are irrelevant to my character. Which is basically a halfling magic-user who is evil whose is to use spells like charms and illusions to manipulate people to foment chaos. Doesn't really care about wealth beyond the necessities of survival.

I feel your pain; never nice being in a game that doesn't fit how you play. If I was playing such a character in such a game setup then I'd be spending my gold to ferment rebellion, acquire spells and components to help those goals, etc etc. That would all lead to XP gain. The Conan-like barbarian would be spending his money on his warband, booze and getting laid as another example. Different vectors for different characters but ultimately resource spend feeds XP gain and develops the game/story/plot.
 
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Artesia is a game where you can get xp (arcana) from just about anything. While "spending money" isn't explicitely mentioned, there are numerous acts like giving gifts, sacrificing to the gods or spirits or building temples that does give xp and such things do cost money.
 
I am in a campaign where the bulk of our XP comes from spending gold....
Why? Sounds like there are many other ways for xp to come up...are you not getting xp for your ingenious ways to overcome your opponents?
In my fantasy game I give xp for at least the following (you can ignore the actual numbers, I just cut and pasted from my rules):

(1) Exploration: (a) 1000 xp per level/area discovered, (b) Level x10 xp per “room” explored.
(2) Overcome Deadly Obstacle: (a) traps, (b) cliffs/tight spaces etc.
(3) Parley: (a) Rank of “Opponent” x10 xp on initiation, (b) Rank of “Opponent” x100 xp for success.
(4) Overcoming/Defeating Monsters
(5) Heroics Deeds: (a) rescue, (b) protect innocent, etc.

(6 – 11 are Gold Spend to xp)
(6) Research: if you have the skill can do research of any kind but usually magic, amount of xp depends on your Intellectual talent (1,000 gp per I Talent per season) and it costs lots of gold.
(7) Hedonism: akin to carousing but more spendthrift and wastrel: (a) wine, women, song, (b) gambling, etc.
(8) Carousing: if you have the skill can use it to turn gold into xp (can spend 100 gp to get 1000 xp per success): (a) festival for all, (b) party, rounds of drinks for everyone (Combined with Courtwise skill, you can throw a great "feast"); (c) small group, friend.
(9) Building: (a) improving your home base or home, (b) building settlements, halls, towers, keeps, temples, nature sanctuary, etc.
(10) Votive: dedicated to a certain religion in addition to xp can gain belief: (a) improving temple, (b) votive offering, etc.
(11) Followers: invest in and reward followers: (a) followers, (b) patronage, (c) familiars, (d) animal & mounts, and (e) monsters.


The fundamental principle is gold to xp doesn't give you stuff although it could make you "friends", stuff is it's own reward...not so much a motivation to spend but a "reward" if you do burn your gold doing these things.
 
Because the referee said so.
Sounds like there are many other ways for xp to come up...are you not getting xp for your ingenious ways to overcome your opponents?
In my fantasy game I give xp for at least the following (you can ignore the actual numbers, I just cut and pasted from my rules):
In this campaign using the referee's system a character gains XP in the following ways
  • XP from overcoming foes
  • spending gold.
Of the two spending gold by far provides the most XP. I do not have to always kill my opponent to gain their xp value. That part is working fine in this campaign. The whole spending gold part is what I intensely dislike now that I experienced it. It hobbles certain types of characters and it so happens I am playing one of those types.

It is not how I personally handle things which is
  • XP form overcoming foes
  • milestones awards
Long ago I jettisoned the idea that players are to be awarded anything in particular. Anything I come up with will reflect my bias. So instead I listen to the players and what they want to accomplish individually and as a group. Then when one of those goals is achieved I make an award. The size of which is based on the difficulty of the goal.

I left the foe xp award in because that is almost a universal expectation among players of wildly different play styles.

I can't stress enough the informal way that goals are determined. There are no mechanics, nothing that the PCs need to declare,. They only need to go about their adventuring and the goals sort themselves out as a result.

For those players who like to roleplay their character a lot, they know whatever they set their mind to they will gain xp as a result. The more ambitious the goal the greater the award. And that minor goals achieved along the way will be also rewarded.

Those players are mostly interested in adventuring and combat. it works out for them as well. The difference is their goals and thus awards are based on success within the adventure and how difficult it was to accomplish. These players do get XP for the foes they overcome, but also milestone awards for coming up with the plans and executing them that allowed them win out in the end.

This reflects my sentiment that the RPG campaigns are at their best when it is about PCs living the life of a character in a setting having adventures. As in life, there a lot of unplanned activities that come up as a result of unexpected opportunities. So I created a flexible system to handle that.

The basic mechanics is <base award> X <character level> X <difficulty factor> . The base award should be set according to how fast you want the characters to progress. I typically use a 100 xp as the base award. The difficulty factors ranges from 1 to 6. But generally use 1, 3, or 6. A 1 occurs when the session is I call a shooting-the-shit session. Most of the session is sitting around talking in and out of the game about stuff and not much gets done in-game. As long as something happens in-game then I will give this minimal award. For most sessions, I will multiply by 3. For session where something major is accomplished, I will multiply by 6.
 
One thing I like about 5e is that the economy works better for xp=gold than older editions. In 5e a gold piece is roughly equivalent $100 USD and the economy just feels right compared to earlier editions where a gold piece feels comparatively worthless and the amount required to level is onerous.
 
I would appreciate you describing what the extra step brings to your table. The reason I ask is because I need to keep bookkeeping to a minimum for this project and have to strip anything that isn't crucial.
Abandon coin counting entirely if you want to keep bookkeeping to a minimum. Use vague "wealth levels" instead.
 
Abandon coin counting entirely if you want to keep bookkeeping to a minimum. Use vague "wealth levels" instead.
Yes I know but I really like XP for gold. I don't fuss with around with currency other than gold pieces which helps immensely.
 
What book keeping? I just tell players what type of spending can be converted to xp. It depends on genre and setting.They choose how much to spend and track their own xp. There is no book keeping on my end.
 
What book keeping? I just tell players what type of spending can be converted to xp. It depends on genre and setting.They choose how much to spend and track their own xp. There is no book keeping on my end.
  • I trust my regulars but only one of them is diligent at bookkeeping. They regularly forget their gold, xp, items and even spell slots. It works against them just about as often as it works for them.
  • I am going to be running an open table that may include people I don't know very well.
 
It occurs to me that XP-for-gold and exorbitant upkeep and training costs are potentially mutually-reinforcing mechanics.
 
I believe AD&D training costs was a money sink Gygax cooked up to deal with the ridiculous amounts of treasure needed to level. Characters ended up with huge amounts of gold and nothing to spend it on.

Current PC level x 1,500 GP = Weekly Cost x 1--4 weeks.

Like seriously?
 
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You gotta love this gem. Instead of acknowledging that the amount of treasure to level was ridiculous and correcting, Gygax doubles down on it. To paraphrase DM David, remember that Conan yarn when he had to pay capital gains tax? Me neither.

It is important in most campaigns to take excess monies away from player characters, and taxation is one of the better means of accomplishing this end.

AD&D Dungeon Master’s Guide
(page 90), Gary Gygax
 
Thanks for weighing in on this. Maybe you can share your bookkeeping tricks some time. I want to implement a cool downtime system in between sessions but I don't know how to execute it without it becoming a hassle. I did it for 24 sessions and it turned into more work than prepping for the actual sessions.

Sorry, meant to respond to this sooner, but forgot. I just make a note on whatever scratch piece of paper I'm using for the session of any individual XP separately the group total XP to be divided later. I usually email or message people with their XP totals and any other notes after the session. That's about as complex as it gets for me.
 
What book keeping? I just tell players what type of spending can be converted to xp. It depends on genre and setting.They choose how much to spend and track their own xp. There is no book keeping on my end.

Damn dude the more I think about it the more I would like players to track everything. I have also considered tracking only XP earned and having players track their own gold via communal pot overseen by a player who is a diligent bookkeeper. The problem is not cheating but sloppy player bookkeeping!
 
I have yet to solidly run an old school D&D campaign enough to come to a conclusion of what would work best, but so far I I really appreciate the way I run Cold Iron and RuneQuest. I am inclined to think that spending money on random shit to gain XP is not going to play well (as Robert shares). XP for earning gold could go well with lots of goals, but I like Robert's idea of awarding XP for goals accomplished.

In Cold Iron, experience is experience, though I will admit I haven't solidified how I will give XP awards. Treasure is used to buy magic items, most of which are "charged" so you need to keep buying more, especially one use potions. Now these days I could allow more flexibility. If a player wanted to spend money on something else as part of their goals, I could work with that. Pursuing such goals might not earn them much fighter XP (unless it really was combat skill related - setting up a fighting school or some such could easily earn fighter XP), but magic and expertise XP could easily be earned in other ways.

In RuneQuest, you improve the skills you use. So the skills important to your goals will improve. Treasure lets you buy spirit magic spells and training. You can also use treasure to pursue other goals.
 
As usual Steve Perrin and Greg Stafford nailed it.
 
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