GaryCon XII cancelled :(

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Due to the threat of Covid-19, Luke Gygax has, very sensibly I think, cancelled GaryCon XII, scheduled for the last weekend in March.

Sadly but predictably, a small but noisy number of turd-gobblers are screaming about not getting a refund, despite the fact that the badge purchase page CLEARLY states no refunds after 12/31/2019.

And I am apparently evil incarnate for suggesting that people actually should be prepared to abide by a provision they agreed to. Without even swearing at anybody.

That came later.

 

[TristramEvans]

Why is he not giving refunds?

 

[Dumarest]

For those interested, they seem to be doing all they can to soften the blow and lack of refunds:

Gary Con XII Cancelled Due to the Increased Risks of COVID-19 - GaryCon

As I said yesterday in a post about the public health emergency in Wisconsin, I would be posting an update within the next 24 hours. Gary Con is more than just a gaming convention, it is a celebration of the life and works of my Dad, Gary Gygax, and his love of gaming. The spirit…

garycon.com

I would assume no refunds because it wouldn't be financially viable.

 

[Bunch]

I'm guessing the venue/celebrity guests required payment up front.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Really, it doesn't matter. The web site has CLEARLY stated "no refunds" since last summer. If one doesn't like the provisions of the sale, one does not have to buy.

 

[Bunch]

Really, it doesn't matter. The web site has CLEARLY stated "no refunds" since last summer. If one doesn't like the provisions of the sale, one does not have to buy.

Fair enough but Like has to deal with the consequences too. If he wants to sell tickets next year and have people pay in advance it would be prudent to try to do something for folks who purchased this year.

 

[Endless Flight]

I don’t think he has to refund their money but maybe he should at least consider a 50% off any future Garycon ticket purchase or something similar.

 

[Ladybird]

There's quite a difference between people wanting a refund because they've changed their mind, and wanting a refund because the event has been cancelled entirely. Sucks for Luke, true, but con goers shouldn't be out of pocket over this.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Did the TOC specifically say no refunds in the case of cancellation?

 

[Moonglum]

These sorts of small events expose the organizer to substantial personal financial risk; we haven't been told the details (total cost, amount put down, venue cancelation policies, etc.), but it is not unreasonable to guess that the choice is between soaking registrants for 100 bucks (or whatever it cost) vs. bankrupting the organizers. It feels to me like whining to demand a refund in a situation like that.

 

[TJS]

Yeah this is largely unprecedented.

I have friends in my industry who have and still are losing their jobs thanks to Covid-19. This is, by it's nature, money people were able to afford to spend.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Did the TOC specifically say no refunds in the case of cancellation?

It says "no refunds" PERIOD.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

These sorts of small events expose the organizer to substantial personal financial risk; we haven't been told the details (total cost, amount put down, venue cancelation policies, etc.), but it is not unreasonable to guess that the choice is between soaking registrants for 100 bucks (or whatever it cost) vs. bankrupting the organizers. It feels to me like whining to demand a refund in a situation like that.

The part I keep wresting with is "What part of NO REFUNDS do people not understand?" If I buy a no refund airline ticket and the airport is snowed in, I eat the ticket.

 

[Moonglum]

I get that and agree with you, but everything about this situation feels unprecedented, so people are probably feeling like standard rules and agreements don't apply.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

...but it says "no refunds"...

* cries * I thought words meant things...

 

[Bunch]

The part I keep wresting with is "What part of NO REFUNDS do people not understand?" If I buy a no refund airline ticket and the airport is snowed in, I eat the ticket.

People get it. They're just not happy about it.

 

[burbles]

* cries * I thought words meant things...

Oh, can I be your best friend then Mr ‘Evil Incarnate’

 

[Nick J]

...but it says "no refunds"...

* cries * I thought words meant things...

I think it's the spirit of the rule being the thing vs. The letter. In this case the provision seems pretty clearly directed at attendees trying to back out of their purchase after a certain point, not carte blanche for the organizer the bail.

 

[under_score]

"No refunds" is usually applied to the buyer not being able to cancel. It doesn't typically excuse the seller from fulfilling their obligations. If you sell decided to sell your D&D collection on ebay but never shipped the books after accepting payment, ebay would help the buyer recover their payment, regardless of whatever "no refund" policy you put in.
No idea how the whole natural disasters, national emergencies, acts of God, etc, stuff applies, but I can't fault people being upset (in a mild, that sucks sort of way, not in the usual internet storm the gates and burn everything down way).

 

[Bunch]

I think it's the spirit of the rule being the thing vs. The letter. In this case the provision seems pretty clearly directed at attendees trying to back out of their purchase after a certain point, not carte blanche for the organizer the bail.

I don't actually disagree with him on why there is no refund in this case. I highly suspect that most of the money has gone to secure items and people who also required non refundable deposits.
If he hasn't already he should explain with some details where the money has gone so it loses the appearance of just a cash grab.

If he took in $100k and there was a $60k non refundable deposit for the rental hall, $30k to guests or tables etc and $10k in profit there's only so much he can do. Maybe he can clawback some of the deposits with the same arguments that are going to be used against him. Primarily they won't get his business next year.

But if all I got after giving money for event was "Sucks to be you" then you won't ever be getting my money again. I don't know what his response has been so far so please don't take the above as something he said

 

[Magister]

It's unlikely that the venue could be fully cancelled less than six months out, so I can understand that the organizers could not afford to refund tickets. I expect there are any number of other expenditures that the convention can't recover this close to the event.

There's a link to a statement from Luke Gygax at the Gary Con webpage. Apparently a discount for next year's convention, but the discount amount is not yet known.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

"No refunds" is not the same as "no refunds if you cancel."

but I've spent most of my life not understanding how other people think.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

"No refunds" is not the same as "no refunds if you cancel."

but I've spent most of my life not understanding how other people think.

But equally it could be said that:

"Preregistered Badges are purchased online through Tabletop Events and let you get guaranteed seats to play events at Gary Con"

means that seats and events are guaranteed.

I'm not blaming the organisers here. It's just a shitty situation and I'm not sure there are any villains. Apart from COVID-19 obviously.

 

[Bunch]

"No refunds" is not the same as "no refunds if you cancel."

but I've spent most of my life not understanding how other people think.

It sometimes feels like you don't try.
I'm not even arguing that refunds are something he can give.
How things are said matters almost as much as what is said.
You keeps saying no refunds means no refunds which comes across as if you're saying hey you you knew what the deal was so you shouldn't take this as an opportunity to reassess who and how you do business with the Con.
I'm not entirely sure you're actually saying that but your tone absolutely gives that impression.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

There's also a practical question here. Why would anyone buy a badge in the future instead of paying on the door?

 

[Dumarest]

...but it says "no refunds"...

* cries * I thought words meant things...

Wanna guess what percentage of people actually read the terms and conditions? Or even read the statement regarding the cancellation?

 

[EmperorNorton]

It is very clear when you read the section on no refunds it is referencing the purchaser attempting to back out, not the event being cancelled.

I purchased a badge, but now I can’t attend. Can I get a refund?

We are sorry you can no longer attend. Our refund deadline is December 31st each year. If it is past that date we cannot refund your badge. If you purchased a badge type that included merchandise pickup, your reserved merchandise will be returned to stock for sale. You can still purchase merchandise from our Marketplace for shipment to your home. After the deadline there are NO refunds. Your money will be used to continue to make Gary Con a success— and we hope to see you next year.

I feel for the organizers, but that is a really really flimsy bit to try to hold in front of people to say "See I don't have to give you refunds when I cancel the event!"

Also, I can't imagine why anyone would ever do anything but purchase at the door in the future, if they even decide to go at all. As they have made it clear now that the money you spent does not guarantee that you will see anything for your money.

 

[urbwar]

I suspect that in the future, conventions will have clause regarding situations like this. For now, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

[Marshal Lucky]

"No refunds" is usually applied to the buyer not being able to cancel. It doesn't typically excuse the seller from fulfilling their obligations. If you sell decided to sell your D&D collection on ebay but never shipped the books after accepting payment, ebay would help the buyer recover their payment, regardless of whatever "no refund" policy you put in.
No idea how the whole natural disasters, national emergencies, acts of God, etc, stuff applies, but I can't fault people being upset (in a mild, that sucks sort of way, not in the usual internet storm the gates and burn everything down way).

It's not like it was canceled for frivolous reasons -it's a matter of public safety when the whole country is under an official State of Emergency because of a lethal virus. So anyone whining about not getting a refund is behaving like a horrible human being.

 

[Gronan of Simmerya]

There's also a practical question here. Why would anyone buy a badge in the future instead of paying on the door?

Two weeks of whining because the events they wanted were filled by preregistrants?

And to cancel because of a fucking lethal pandemic is a long way from "they might decide to cancel for the lulz."

 

[EmperorNorton]

It's not like it was canceled for frivolous reasons -it's a matter of public safety when the whole country is under an official State of Emergency because of a lethal virus. So anyone whining about not getting a refund is behaving like a horrible human being.

Why?

In all seriousness, almost every other cancelled event I've seen is getting refunds. It sucks. It really does suck for organizers. In fact, I sympathize with them (and think they need to actually sit down and explain exactly where the money went so people can understand that it doesn't exist).

But just pointing to a policy that says "no refunds" to explain why you aren't giving refunds when that policy is CLEARLY about the attendee backing out and not the event being cancelled is just not the way to go about it.

Or to me more exact: Why should the attendee just have to suck it up, but the convention shouldn't have to?

 

[Bunch]

It is very clear when you read the section on no refunds it is referencing the purchaser attempting to back out, not the event being cancelled.



I feel for the organizers, but that is a really really flimsy bit to try to hold in front of people to say "See I don't have to give you refunds when I cancel the event!"

Also, I can't imagine why anyone would ever do anything but purchase at the door in the future, if they even decide to go at all. As they have made it clear now that the money you spent does not guarantee that you will see anything for your money.

I agree it hurts his ability to host a con in the future. However this is an extraordinary circumstance and this is a game convention. It's not like people are making a mint off it. I have no idea how much insurance to cover something like this would be. The no refunds is to some extent an indication that insurance is likely limited or missing.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I'm not even saying no refunds is the wrong thing to do (I think it is likely that the convention has spent the money already and there is just no way to actual refund the money), I just think pointing to a policy that says "see we said no refunds" is 100% the wrong way to go about it. And that anyone pointing to that policy which is clearly not about event cancellation is not doing anyone any favors.

 

[robertsconley]

I think what being missed is that this situation is considered force majeure, unforeseen circumstances causing a contract from being fulfilled. Irregardless of the presence of non presence of a refund policy the fact the situation is caused by a pandemic means that a force majeure situation exists. Which will alter the rules in fulfilling a contract which an event ticket represents. It will be frustrating but it why it exists as a legal concept. Personally that what I would hammer on along with some illustration of the expenses that already been incurred.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I'm not even saying no refunds is the wrong thing to do (I think it is likely that the convention has spent the money already and there is just no way to actual refund the money), I just think pointing to a policy that says "see we said no refunds" is 100% the wrong way to go about it. And that anyone pointing to that policy which is clearly not about event cancellation is not doing anyone any favors.

Yeah, this totally.

"Look guys, this is something nobody we could have predicted and the brutal truth is that the convention simply can't afford to refund people without a strong chance this would mean we'd never run again"

would be a better approach.

I'm not saying you wouldn't still get complaints. (There were people who were prickish enough to whine about the lack of Tales of the Floating Vagabond 2e on the day of Lee Garvin's sad death). But I think they'd lessen them.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I would also point out that that seems to be the response on the actual GaryCon site (that the money just doesn't exist and has already been spent on supplies and such). I just don't think Gronan's reasoning works as an explanation.

 

[TristramEvans]

"No refunds" is usually applied to the buyer not being able to cancel. It doesn't typically excuse the seller from fulfilling their obligations. If you sell decided to sell your D&D collection on ebay but never shipped the books after accepting payment, ebay would help the buyer recover their payment, regardless of whatever "no refund" policy you put in.
No idea how the whole natural disasters, national emergencies, acts of God, etc, stuff applies, but I can't fault people being upset (in a mild, that sucks sort of way, not in the usual internet storm the gates and burn everything down way).

Yeah, exactly, it's kinda disengenuous to act like people are being jerks for a situation where the event was itself cancelled, simply because there's a general "no refund" policy on ticket sales. But at least it does seem like Garycon is attempting to offer some compensation. Seems like just allowing them to use those tickets for the next year would be the most fair IMO though.

 

[urbwar]

Seems like just allowing them to use those tickets for the next year would be the most fair IMO though.

I doubt that would be feasible, as ticket sales likely help pay for the venue they would use to host the con. If the majority of this years funds are used and not refundable to the con, they wouldn't likely have the funds to even run the con next year either.

 

[Endless Flight]

Given what appears to have happened (the majority of the money has already been spent and there’s probably not a lot of profit involved), I think a discount on next years tickets is the most feasible route to take and gives this years ticket holders at least something.

 

[Bunch]

I'm going to assume that all the paid people (convention hall,etc) are equally aware that simply saying "FU not my problem" is perhaps legal but I'll advised if you want return business. I hope they are all working with Luke to come up with something to mitigate the situation. No one's going to be made whole I'm guessing.