Tell me of your Love (Hate) for the Palladium RPG engine [Mega-Damage!!!]

[The Butcher]

Let's be right, the guy is idiot and within 15 years, or sooner Palladium will go the way of Unisystem - both of which were mismanaged. Shame really for two good products.

I’m not a fan of Kev’s management style or recent creative output but I’d be loathe to call him an “idiot”, or foretell the demise of an operation that’s survived TSR and White Wolf, among others.

I think it was in Palladium Fantasy where he through the avatar of an NPc god punished one of his players (ex-wife )

Maryann? The same one he used as his online go-between until she dumped him for the author of (what was to be a new edition of) RECON?

 

[sureshot]

I think it was Maryann. I still remember reading that example and telling myself how not run a game.

TSR and White Wolf still live on. TSR is Wotc and White Wolf has new owners. Both had and still have popular rpgs with a growing fanbase. PB will surviving is not the same as thriving.

 

[Chris Brady]

The problem I have with MDC is how reliant it is on the amount of dice, rather than the number the damage threshold.

If I can have about ten guys with a rifle able to take out a tank, there's an issue. Like why would anyone buy a tank if that's the case? And I'm not being hyperbolic, 10 guess with a basic 3d6 rifle can wipe out a UAR-1 Enforcer bot in about 30 seconds worth of concentrated fire at the chest area. (5 attacks per round, 50% hit rate, average damage of 9 points per hit, single round damage is 225MD, two rounds 450=Dead Bot) That's even if it manages to take out a man per round, which is iffy at best.

That's like 10 Marines with M-16 being able to wipe out a main battle tank. That's a Hell No, Big Daddy. No army would invest in the tank if it could be taken out that easily.

 

[Brock Savage]

That's like 10 Marines with M-16 being able to wipe out a main battle tank. That's a Hell No, Big Daddy. No army would invest in the tank if it could be taken out that easily.

Spot on observation. That said, I can totally imagine circumstances that bring about the ascendency of mobile armored infantry with armored vehicles relegated to minor or specialized battlefield roles. Rifts ain't it.

 

[James Gillen]

I was wondering why we had all these clips of cheesy '80s cartoons in a thread about Palladium, then I went: "Oh."

jg

 

[Chris Brady]

Spot on observation. That said, I can totally imagine circumstances that bring about the ascendency of mobile armored infantry with armored vehicles relegated to minor or specialized battlefield roles. Rifts ain't it.

And the main reason why I said '10' soldiers? Because the price of a UAR-1 can arm, armour, house and feed those 10 soldiers for a YEAR. It won't last 30 seconds. Not worth the price.

 

[Gabriel]

I never watched this show. I just like the chorus of the song.

 

[TristramEvans]

Who can forget the quite frankly insult rant in Heroes Unlimited where he accues anyone who wants to play comic heroes of not wanting to play a thinking mans rpg.

Is there a transcript/clip of this online? I'd love to read that

 

[Chris Brady]

Is there a transcript/clip of this online? I'd love to read that

You'd have to take it from the first edition of the book. I remember the screed, and I disagreed. I believe it was the 'Mega Hero' section.

 

[sureshot]

Not first edition of HU. It's in the second edition. Megahero is really the only way HU comes close to matching the power level of superheroes. Of course Kevin would hate that as it shows the shortcomings of Heroes Unlimited. Some of the Special Training OCCs have not aged well. Stage Magician is toast in most HU.

 

[Chris Brady]

Not first edition of HU. It's in the second edition. Megahero is really the only way HU comes close to matching the power level of superheroes. Of course Kevin would hate that as it shows the shortcomings of Heroes Unlimited. Some of the Special Training OCCs have not aged well. Stage Magician is toast in most HU.

Second? OK. My memory isn't what its supposed to be.

 

[TristramEvans]

Is the second edition the "Revised" book? Anyone have a page #?

 

[Chris Brady]

Is the second edition the "Revised" book? Anyone have a page #?

Mega Hero section: Page 178 HU Second Edition (I had to dig out my copy.)

 

[TristramEvans]

Hmm, I must have the wrong edition, page 178 is just power descriptions.

 

[sureshot]

Looking through my physical copy of HU2 the MegaHero section starts on page 178. Reading that section again it has not aged well at all imo.

Apparently wanting to play the characters from a comic book is means wanting to simply play a hack and slasher and power gamer. How can someone with so many years of experience under his belt really not understand the genre imo. Not the version with the purple cover the one with the all white cover.

 

[TristramEvans]

OK, Revised wasn't second edition, I just found it

 

[TristramEvans]

So, it's not well worded, but I do get what he's saying. Superman is a hard character to run in an RPG - presumably 20 Supermen would be even harder. The phrase "a thinking man's game" does come across a bit pretentious (and hilarious considering, well, Rifts)

From now on, of course, I will be referring to Airwolf as "A Thinking Man's TV Show"...

 

[sureshot]

I thin someone was right about Kevin and the Viking Hat. The last time I saw such piss poor advice given to players was Gary Gygax and the 1E DMG. It comes off like that imo "I am not telling you to play a certain way yet if you don't do it a certain way your doing it wrong". It's an rpg about Superheroes with the author giving his quite frankly unwanted opinion on something that needed to be added to fix the big weakness of said rpg. Not all of us want to play Captain America or Green Arrow or street level heroes all the time. Don't get me started on the teleportation power. Most current sueper rpgs on a bad roll with sucha power don' insta-kill the player character. Roll badly on a table and the character teleports into a solid object.

 

[TristramEvans]

I'm just glancing through the game, and bemused that every piece of cybernetic equipment (of which there seems to be more here than superpowers?) has a related cost in dollars. I've never played this - but how does that actually balance out? And moreso, if you wre to recreate The Bionic Man with these rules, would he cost 6 million dollars?

 

[David Johansen]

Personally, Heroes Unlimited worked much better when you got just one power. And I've run a lot of Heroes Unlimited at the store over the last eight years. It's pretty much my most hated system at this point but the kids love it.

 

[TristramEvans]

It seems like a lot of...rules. I don't know what I'd do with so many rules.

Is it front-loaded at-least? How does it actually play?

 

[Chris Brady]

It seems like a lot of...rules. I don't know what I'd do with so many rules.

Is it front-loaded at-least? How does it actually play?

Like AD&D... Which is the base it was built off of.

 

[David Johansen]

It has given me many favorite NPCs. Armadillo with guns! Paragon who's powers are the result of a psychological experiment and wax and wane with his confidence that he's doing what's right. Heli-monkeys. General Hoonta Boonto the Gorrilla Guerrilla. Doc Science! with his P-38 Lightning. Bwap the sticky alien. Adonis. The Empirical Principal and her girl's school of doom.

 

[Rogerdee]

Not first edition of HU. It's in the second edition. Megahero is really the only way HU comes close to matching the power level of superheroes. Of course Kevin would hate that as it shows the shortcomings of Heroes Unlimited. Some of the Special Training OCCs have not aged well. Stage Magician is toast in most HU.

Stage Magician is useless, but the others still fit in quite well, look at Arrowverse as an example. That said they need a re-write (which I did for a freeform campaign in Arrowverse). Even working on a freeform, and balanced version, of powered individuals.

 

[Dumarest]

​

 

[Chris Brady]

View attachment 23445​

I sincerely envy anyone who can do that with the modern system.

I had, still have, no issue if I run TMNT straight, though.

 

[Gabriel]

Honestly, his rant in Federation of Magic is better than the Mega Hero rant. To summarize:

He characterizes anyone who wants Rifts 1e magic to be more effective as a chest thumping monkey.

He then goes into a long description of how anyone who has that attitude is playing completely wrong and needs to become a more enlightened gamer like him.

He flatly states his magic rules are perfect as written.

He then makes it clear that he doesn't approve of the new power level of spells in the book, and they are supplied only as an appeasement of baser and less sophisticated gamers.

He also provides a minor patch to spellcasting times.

Then, he tops all this off by saying that he never uses any of the spellcasting rules as he has written them.

This is another recurring thing of Unca Kev's. He expects you to read his mind. He writes the rules, but then later he'll write something else which effectively says, "Why are you using that rule that I wrote? You should have read my mind and use this other rule I never told you about instead."

 

[TristramEvans]

He sounds like a very amusing character, really. I can't really get angry or annoyed, it all sounds so silly.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

Not first edition of HU. It's in the second edition. Megahero is really the only way HU comes close to matching the power level of superheroes. Of course Kevin would hate that as it shows the shortcomings of Heroes Unlimited. Some of the Special Training OCCs have not aged well. Stage Magician is toast in most HU.

But the stage magician is my favourite O.C.C. in Heroes Unlimited. I mean that sincerely, and not even the alternative "powered" versions from The Rifter (though I do like the magician's assistant/trained performance animal rules). You are absolutely a lightweight against superpowered villains, but as long as you know that going in, it shouldn't be a concern. You can easily mop up goons and have a lot of skills/tricks to play with.

You suck in a game full of Experiments and Mega-Heroes, but in a street level crime-buster campaign, you can really shine.

View attachment 23434

So, it's not well worded, but I do get what he's saying. Superman is a hard character to run in an RPG - presumably 20 Supermen would be even harder. The phrase "a thinking man's game" does come across a bit pretentious (and hilarious considering, well, Rifts)

From now on, of course, I will be referring to Airwolf as "A Thinking Man's TV Show"...

I don't think he's wrong, I do think he explains himself horribly.

I'm just glancing through the game, and bemused that every piece of cybernetic equipment (of which there seems to be more here than superpowers?) has a related cost in dollars. I've never played this - but how does that actually balance out? And moreso, if you wre to recreate The Bionic Man with these rules, would he cost 6 million dollars?

There is no balance. Cyborgs and robots are insanely tough, but unless you have a backer to pay for repairs/replacements/upgrades, you're stuck with what you start with. I don't know if it holds up between editions, but my friend did put together the 6 Million Dollar Man and Bionic Woman many years ago. I think it can in under budget.

"There is no balance" might as well be the Heroes Unlimited subtitle.

 

[sureshot]

Honestly, his rant in Federation of Magic is better than the Mega Hero rant. To summarize:

He characterizes anyone who wants Rifts 1e magic to be more effective as a chest thumping monkey.

He then goes into a long description of how anyone who has that attitude is playing completely wrong and needs to become a more enlightened gamer like him.

He flatly states his magic rules are perfect as written.

He then makes it clear that he doesn't approve of the new power level of spells in the book, and they are supplied only as an appeasement of baser and less sophisticated gamers.

He also provides a minor patch to spellcasting times.

Then, he tops all this off by saying that he never uses any of the spellcasting rules as he has written them.

This is another recurring thing of Unca Kev's. He expects you to read his mind. He writes the rules, but then later he'll write something else which effectively says, "Why are you using that rule that I wrote? You should have read my mind and use this other rule I never told you about instead."

Dear lord I forgot about that rant in the FOM. He essentially says that anyone and everyone playing a magic-user in Rifts has to be sneaky and devious and what Gabriel has posted above. Then when one looks at much of the art for the same classes in the Rifts books it's the opposite. The casters are in the midst of combat tossing out magic bolts at the enemy. Funny how between the realization he planned to do nothing to fix casters and the destruction of Tolkeen it turned me off Rifts and the system for a long time. Even then the magic in FOM is not all that powerful and much of the fixes is giving more magic weapons and toys to the players. Except in te rant above casters in Rifts Earth consider technology inferior and magic superior. Except it's okay because the tech is powered by MAGIC.

Sometimes he is spot on when it comes to what the fans want and sometimes so far left field he is in the next galaxy.

He really needs to stop saying he no longer uses the rules as is because it's kind of a hypocritical stance to take as a developer imo. Their is nothing wrong with the rules yet the owner of the IP plays with a houseruled version of the rules. It's like the owner of an airline company traveling from place to place using the competition airline

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

Stage Magician is useless, but the others still fit in quite well, look at Arrowverse as an example. That said they need a re-write (which I did for a freeform campaign in Arrowverse). Even working on a freeform, and balanced version, of powered individuals.

The Weapons Master from Powers Unlimited covers most of the Arrow heroes and villains. Why it isn't a O.C.C. in the core book I'll never understand. Hardware: Electrical still has a spot after 3 editions, but not Green Arrow/Hawkeye!?

 

[sureshot]

Stage Magician is useless, but the others still fit in quite well, look at Arrowverse as an example. That said they need a re-write (which I did for a freeform campaign in Arrowverse). Even working on a freeform, and balanced version, of powered individuals.

If the game was built for street level superheroes like characters from the Arrowverse sure. Instead the rpg is promoted and sold like full supers rpg like Mutants and Masterminds. In a campaign where everyone has superpowers and can fly and run super fast they have to essentially end up carrying the character from place to place. The Special Training feels out of place. Except for the Ancient Master. The rest imo belong more in Ninja and Superpies.

Not to mention too many redundant power descriptions. All we need is one Energy Expulsion or Alter Physical Structure power.

 

[Bourbonjack]

I played good bit of pre-Mega Damage Palladium Fantasy, TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies and one of the horror titles. IMHO, it was never a "great system", but the introduction of Mega Damage for everything ruined it as a system I had any interest in playing.

Despite that fact, I had quite a bit of Palladium Rifts on my shelves until a few years ago I sold most of it off. Whatever my complaints about the system, a lot of the concepts and ideas were interesting, just something I'd want to play using another system.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

I played good bit of pre-Mega Damage Palladium Fantasy, TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies and one of the horror titles. IMHO, it was never a "great system", but the introduction of Mega Damage for everything ruined it as a system I had any interest in playing.

Despite that fact, I had quite a bit of Palladium Rifts on my shelves until a few years ago I sold most of it off. Whatever my complaints about the system, a lot of the concepts and ideas were interesting, just something I'd want to play using another system.

It does seem that M.D.C. does divide players the same as it does the game lines. I don't think M.D.C. is a bad idea, but haphazardly implemented for little gain. If personal/conventional weapons (regardless of game line) did S.D.C. and mecha/futuristic war machines did M.D.C., I wonder if it would have been an issue for all these years?

 

[Bourbonjack]

It does seem that M.D.C. does divide players the same as it does the game lines. I don't think M.D.C. is a bad idea, but haphazardly implemented for little gain. If personal/conventional weapons (regardless of game line) did S.D.C. and mecha/futuristic war machines did M.D.C., I wonder if it would have been an issue for all these years?

Something like that would have been much better IMHO. Having MDC hand weapons, pistols, etc. in Rifts was what really killed it off for the gaming group that was, up until that point, fairly vested in Palladium.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

Something like that would have been much better IMHO. Having MDC hand weapons, pistols, etc. in Rifts was what really killed it off for the gaming group that was, up until that point, fairly vested in Palladium.

I don't have the book at hand, but I remember when I played in the original Robotech, all the sidearms did S.D.C. damage, so when we ran around on foot, we just had ordinary pistols/rifles. That made the S.D.C. and M.D.C. divide clear, and scary!

Hell, I think we misheard the referee and called it "Mecha Damage" to begin with.

 

[Fenris-77]

I really dont like MDC, especially how its implemented in Rifts. Just a personal thing I guess. I don't much care for the Palladium system generally, but MDC just isn't my cup of tea at all.

 

[Gabriel]

I don't have the book at hand, but I remember when I played in the original Robotech, all the sidearms did S.D.C. damage, so when we ran around on foot, we just had ordinary pistols/rifles. That made the S.D.C. and M.D.C. divide clear, and scary!

Hell, I think we misheard the referee and called it "Mecha Damage" to begin with.

Must have been Macross era. In that era you have the clearly defined personal versus mecha.

In Southern Cross is where the boundary is broken down. It's arguable if you need MD weapons at the personal scale for that generation. There are scenes where the 15th is using small arms to kill Bioroids, but IIRC it's framed as them aiming at weak points.. But even that would require MD weapons in Palladium's system. Of course, Siembieda could have just ignored it like he did so much in the source material.

But then you have Mospeada, where characters are regularly fighting Invid mecha armed with nothing but CVR-3 and a Gallant H-90 in pistol mode. It's clearly not an optimal way to fight Invid, but the show makes it clearly a not completely hopeless option. So CVR-3 had to be MDC and H-90s had to be MD. And thus the boundary betwen personal and mecha was completely shattered.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

Must have been Macross era. In that era you have the clearly defined personal versus mecha.

In Southern Cross is where the boundary is broken down. It's arguable if you need MD weapons at the personal scale for that generation. There are scenes where the 15th is using small arms to kill Bioroids, but IIRC it's framed as them aiming at weak points.. But even that would require MD weapons in Palladium's system. Of course, Siembieda could have just ignored it like he did so much in the source material.

But then you have Mospeada, where characters are regularly fighting Invid mecha armed with nothing but CVR-3 and a Gallant H-90 in pistol mode. It's clearly not an optimal way to fight Invid, but the show makes it clearly a not completely hopeless option. So CVR-3 had to be MDC and H-90s had to be MD. And thus the boundary betwen personal and mecha was completely shattered.

Yeah, in Southern Cross most (all?) weapons and armour were M.D.

G.C.M./New Generation is my favourite era of Robotech. I saw it long before I knew it was a third and entirely unrelated anime, so it all seemed like a (logical?) progression from Macross to Southern Cross to New Generation. I approached the role-playing game that way. Honestly, I was too excited to have Cyclones and Alpha/Beta to worry about what was and wasn't sensible when it came to M.D.C.

 

[Bourbonjack]

The biggest thing I (and my group) just couldn't get past was the concept that no matter how tough, how trained or how experienced most human (or humanoid) characters could be, unless they were wearing MDC armor the weakest MDC hand weapon would take them out with one hit. It became a running joke/tactic to buy MDC armored "underwear" so said characters could always survive at least one hit.