Star Trek random thoughts

[Jetstream]

View attachment 57505

...

I really don't want to be a Martok/Phoebe shipper, Simon. Why are you doing this to me?

 

[Triumvir]

Rewatching Enterprise recently, the Klingons of that era are much more Viking than Samurai. What we see them get up to is roaming around pillaging anyone too weak to resist, rather than conquering and occupying. One bunch of colonists gets stripped of vital gear by the Klingons who promise to return with supplies in exchange for loyalty, but the Klingons then seem to just forget about them, until Archer decides to help them.

There's also a hint this is a fairly recent development, with Archer's lawyer telling him that in his father's day Klingons could win honour for professional or academic pursuits. But now the young people think honour is won by going off and looting.

 

[Simon Hogwood]

 

[Chris Brady]

View attachment 64442

That's not what the Federation was about until 2009.

 

[Simon Hogwood]

That's not what the Federation was about until 2009.

Well, they certainly weren't doing it for the detriment of humanity.

But yes, the meme is exaggerating the similarities somewhat.

 

[Armchair Gamer]

There's also a hint this is a fairly recent development, with Archer's lawyer telling him that in his father's day Klingons could win honour for professional or academic pursuits. But now the young people think honour is won by going off and looting.

My head canon was that Enterprise-era Klingons were decadent, TOS-style Klingons were the results of a revolution (possibly connected to the Augment virus), and Movie/TNG Klingons were Restorationist. Discovery and SNW blew this up, although I haven’t watched anything past Discovery’s premiere.

 

[Cessna]

Klingons are whatever the GM or writers want them to be.

Klingons though, I can't stand them. For all their big talk of honor etc they seem like cowards hiding behind their traditions or gaming them for advantage. And come on, Cloaking? Klingons are the dudes with little dicks and big trucks of the Star trek Universe.

It allows them to take on a much larger opponent in a clever way. It's like a WWII submarine attacking a battleship.

 

[Gabriel]

The only reason Klingons ever got cloaks was because as originally written the enemies in Star Trek III were going to be Romulans.

The Bird of Prey was designed by ILM as a Romulan ship.

Then it was changed to Klingons for recognizability and there was a whole intro to the movie with Kruge and co stealing the Romulan Bird of Prey.

Then all that was cut, and it was just Kruge on a Romulan Bird of Prey.

Then even that got cut and it became a Klingon Bird of Prey.

The whole Romulan ship thing ultimately got cut because the powers that be thought it was just too much for anyone to keep track of, and, after all, who would care and what difference would it make?

So now we have 40 years of Klingons with cloaking devices. And all sorts of scale madness with that Bird of Prey model. Things just got worse from there.

 

[dragoner]

The proud warrior race is pretty tired trope, though that said, I don't necessarily hate them, they have some interesting parts. I know people said they were modeled on the Soviets, which is funny when the Soviets saw themselves more like this:

(Picking Currants)

 

[Cessna]

The proud warrior race is pretty tired trope, though that said, I don't necessarily hate them, they have some interesting parts. I know people said they were modeled on the Soviets, which is funny when the Soviets saw themselves more like this:

The Making of Star Trek says that the initial description from the 60's was "Mongol Horde with ray guns."

 

[dragoner]

The Making of Star Trek says that the initial description from the 60's was "Mongol Horde with ray guns."

If I were to do the Mongols science fiction, I think I'd pull straight from themselves.

 

[Gabriel]

John Colicos, the actor for the first onscreen Klingon, went into makeup and told them to do him up as a "space mongol warrior."

TOS Klingon stories were definitely written with tones of the US/Soviet cold war with the Federation being the US and the Klingons being the Soviets. This was definitely the case with Errand of Mercy where Colicos's Kor first appears. This expanded throughout the series until it was damn near explicit instead of implied, as with A Private Little War where the Federation/Klingon conflict of the 23rd century is directly paralleled with the proxy US/Soviet conflict in Vietnam which of course was real world current events when the show was originally aired.

 

[Baulderstone]

The proud warrior race is pretty tired trope, though that said, I don't necessarily hate them, they have some interesting parts. I know people said they were modeled on the Soviets, which is funny when the Soviets saw themselves more like this:

(Picking Currants)

I've never been able to see the Klingons as Soviets either.

To go on a tangent, I went to an exhibit of banned Soviet art about ten years ago and took some pictures.

 

[Baulderstone]

John Colicos, the actor for the first onscreen Klingon, went into makeup and told them to do him up as a "space mongol warrior."

TOS Klingon stories were definitely written with tones of the US/Soviet cold war with the Federation being the US and the Klingons being the Soviets. This was definitely the case with Errand of Mercy where Colicos's Kor first appears. This expanded throughout the series until it was damn near explicit instead of implied, as with A Private Little War where the Federation/Kingon conflict of the 23rd century is directly paralleled with the proxy US/Soviet conflict in Vietnam which of course was real world current events when the show was originally aired.

I think it comes down to inspirations never being pure. The Cold War was certainly a big influence on Star Trek, but the Klingons also were inspired by Mongols. You get inspired by something but it just becomes its own thing in the course of creation.

 

[Cessna]

I've never been able to see the Klingons as Soviets either.

"Soviets" as seen through the lens of Cold War USA, maybe?

 

[dragoner]

I've never been able to see the Klingons as Soviets either.

To go on a tangent, I went to an exhibit of banned Soviet art about ten years ago and took some pictures.

That is a really great exhibit. USSR produced a prodigious amount of art, there used to be an old saying: "If you can't be a great artist, be a great scientist." I was reading something by Jim Burns the Welsh painter, and he said he thinks the best school for fine arts painting is in St Petersburg. One thing about the immense amount art produced in the Soviet times is that Russia is so much poorer now they are having troubles preserving it all.

 

[dragoner]

Yes, the representation of Soviets as Asian goes through the Germans to the US:

 

[Agemegos]

The proud warrior race is pretty tired trope,

It’s also nonsense. Any culture that builds and operates starships has to consist in substantial part of engineers, scientists, technicians, machinists, metallurgists, industrial chemists, and highly productive workers in general. A society of proud, ferocious warriors couldn’t make and maintain mail and good swords, let alone spacecraft and practical firearms. The closest you can come id high-tech Spartiates, knights, or samurai, depending on a tight monopoly of violence to screw arms and supplies out of a vastly more numerous, technologically adept, industrial under-class. Even then, you have to have a lot of engineers and technicians in the spaceships, and not too many of the useless warrior guys.

Klingons in the original series — who did represent the Soviets in a Cold War enemy’s view, but were not proud warrior race guys ranting about their honour — were much more credible, and a more interesting opponent for the Federation.

 

[Cessna]

Some iterations of Star Trek - and there are lots of these - explain this by saying that long ago the Klingons were colonized by a space-faring race before they themselves achieved any sort of space travel, then rebelled and took their space-ships. They have since reverse-engineered what they can from them, and the whole thing has religious overtones ("We killed the 'gods'!")

 

[dragoner]

It’s also nonsense. Any culture that builds and operates starships has to consist in substantial part of engineers, scientists, technicians, machinists, metallurgists, industrial chemists, and highly productive workers in general. A society of proud, ferocious warriors couldn’t make and maintain mail and good swords, let alone spacecraft and practical firearms. The closest you can come id high-tech Spartiates, knights, or samurai, depending on a tight monopoly of violence to screw arms and supplies out of a vastly more numerous, technologically adept, industrial under-class. Even then, you have to have a lot of engineers and technicians in the spaceships, and not too many of the useless warrior guys.

Klingons in the original series — who did represent the Soviets in a Cold War enemy’s view, but were not proud warrior race guys ranting about their honour — were much more credible, and a more interesting opponent for the Federation.

True, I do think it is nonsense as well, for those exact reasons. In my own setting I have focused more on motivations as to why people come into conflict. Such as similar to Cherryh's Alliance-Union, many of the Siderereals (people outside of the Sol system) are either "clones" or descendants of them. The clones being more similar to Blade Runners Replicants, in being manufactured people.

 

[dragoner]

Some iterations of Star Trek - and there are lots of these - explain this by saying that long ago the Klingons were colonized by a space-faring race before they themselves achieved any sort of space travel, then rebelled and took their space-ships. They have since reverse-engineered what they can from them, and the whole thing has religious overtones ("We killed the 'gods'!")

I have heard that, also this is the Kzinti origin from Man-Kzin wars, who in turn were part of the Animated Series.

 

[Agemegos]

Some iterations of Star Trek - and there are lots of these - explain this by saying that long ago the Klingons were colonized by a space-faring race before they themselves achieved any sort of space travel, then rebelled and took their space-ships. They have since reverse-engineered what they can from them, and the whole thing has religious overtones ("We killed the 'gods'!")

That might provide the inventions, but it does not explain the capacity for continual production and maintenance. It doesn’t even explain the food supply.

 

[Cessna]

That might provide the inventions, but it does not explain the capacity for continual production and maintenance. It doesn’t even explain the food supply.

I agree that the idea of a 100% warrior society is nonsense, but I still like that explanation (that is, taking over an invader's technology).

I also basically like the Klingons as-is. I prefer the John Ford/TOS Klingons, but they're all good silly fun.

 

[Zeroth_Law]

Any culture that builds and operates starships has to consist in substantial part of engineers, scientists, technicians, machinists, metallurgists, industrial chemists, and highly productive workers in general.

While this is true to some degree, there is also a view that technology itself is the result of belligerence and the capacity for violence. After all, it takes some tenacity to blast yourself into space in the first place.

I won't disagree with you that the TOS Klingons are less one-note than TNG despite liking TNG more. But I will say I think they had too much conceptual overlap with the Romulans.

 

[Supervisor194]

Wished I could remember the source, but many, many years ago I read that Gene Roddenberry had based the Klingons on the Imperial Japanese of WWII. That has always made sense to me as Roddenberry served in WWII.

 

[Voros]

The new season of Strange New Worlds is stronger than the first so far. The first 4 episodes have all been fun and found new spins on ST classic tropes (the courtroom episode, the time travel episode, the trippy episode, etc.).

 

[Zeroth_Law]

The new season of Strange New Worlds is stronger than the first so far. The first 4 episodes have all been fun and found new spins on ST classic tropes (the courtroom episode, the time travel episode, the trippy episode, etc.).

That courtroom episode is one of the best episodes of Trek in a long time! It took incredible restraint for them to keep to such a small-scale story. I'm really enjoying the classic Trek shenanigans with the added character development and sense of continuity.

 

[James Gillen]

I think it comes down to inspirations never being pure. The Cold War was certainly a big influence on Star Trek, but the Klingons also were inspired by Mongols. You get inspired by something but it just becomes its own thing in the course of creation.

The Star Fleet Universe books by Amarillo Design Studio are officially not canon but are based on the Star Trek Technical Manual, so they're actually more based on the Original Series than current Star Trek. And in those the Klingons are not entirely a warrior people but effectively became such because their statist, low-resource economy wasn't able to compete with Federation capitalism, so they resort to conquest and command control to keep things going. This results in putting a lot of money into the military rather than trade. Sounds pretty Soviet to me.

JG

 

[Gabriel]

So, question for anyone who might know...

I pre-ordered the limited editions of the Star Trek Adventures Utopia Planitia book over a year ago. I long ago got my pre-order of the regular edition, but my pre-order for the limiteds is still awaiting stock, and I see stores are still accepting pre-orders for them.

Did the limited edition Utopia Planitia sourcebooks ever see release in the US? I can see they were shipped in Europe, and I occasionally see people with European addresses selling them, but never any indication the books ever saw release over on my side of the pond. And at this point I'm beginning to wonder if they ever will.

 

[Triumvir]

The Star Fleet Universe books by Amarillo Design Studio are officially not canon but are based on the Star Trek Technical Manual, so they're actually more based on the Original Series than current Star Trek. And in those the Klingons are not entirely a warrior people but effectively became such because their statist, low-resource economy wasn't able to compete with Federation capitalism, so they resort to conquest and command control to keep things going. This results in putting a lot of money into the military rather than trade. Sounds pretty Soviet to me.

JG

The Federation's expansion itself would force the Klingons to become more and more militaristic/statist, unless they agree to live by Federation rules i.e. surrender (in their own eyes).

In TOS, the Klingons as a single world can probably manage to spend enough on their military to face off against a 4-world Federation without collapsing (this assumes colonies and tributary states are economically irrelevant). But once the Federation goes to 10 worlds, then 20 and upwards, the Klingons just couldn't keep up. The Romulan alliance helps balance the odds for a while, but it unravels.

 

[Dammit Victor]

I want to write a story now about a budding young spacefaring culture that encounters their equivalent of the klingons and does, indeed, eagerly join them to their initial regret and the klingons' eventual regret. Not through revolution, but through steady irresitible pressure for the imperial culture to live up to their propaganda.

 

[cranebump]

The Cardassisns seemed closer to the old USSR to me than the Klingons. Corrupted state, with a huge military, and s secret police to keep everyone in line. The comparison of the Klingons to something like feudal state Japan seems more fitting for them. I assume Romulans were modeled somewhat on Rome, simply due to the various ranks and titles (Praetor, Centurion, etc.).

 

[Jetstream]

The Cardassisns seemed closer to the old USSR to me than the Klingons. Corrupted state, with a huge military, and s secret police to keep everyone in line. The comparison of the Klingons to something like feudal state Japan seems more fitting for them. I assume Romulans were modeled somewhat on Rome, simply due to the various ranks and titles (Praetor, Centurion, etc.).

The Klingons in TOS were based on popular perception of the USSR in the 60s. Likewise the Romulans were China. Both changed a lot.

Now yeah, the Cardassians are obviously Soviet Nazis. That wasn’t subtle.

 

[James Gillen]

The Cardassisns seemed closer to the old USSR to me than the Klingons. Corrupted state, with a huge military, and s secret police to keep everyone in line. The comparison of the Klingons to something like feudal state Japan seems more fitting for them. I assume Romulans were modeled somewhat on Rome, simply due to the various ranks and titles (Praetor, Centurion, etc.).

I saw the feudal model as being what post-Original Series Klingons are, whereas the Cardassians are more like post-Soviet Russia. ;)

JG

 

[Voros]

I haven't been watching The Lower Decks cartoon although I heard good things but the recent crossover episode with Strange New Worlds was fun and clever, I guess I should dip in and check it out?

 

[CT_Phipps]

The Federation's expansion itself would force the Klingons to become more and more militaristic/statist, unless they agree to live by Federation rules i.e. surrender (in their own eyes).

In TOS, the Klingons as a single world can probably manage to spend enough on their military to face off against a 4-world Federation without collapsing (this assumes colonies and tributary states are economically irrelevant). But once the Federation goes to 10 worlds, then 20 and upwards, the Klingons just couldn't keep up. The Romulan alliance helps balance the odds for a while, but it unravels.

Of course, the Klingons solution to this is CONQUEST AND SLAVERY!

 

[Triumvir]

I remember having a paperback of short story adaptations of some TOS episodes. I think it was by James Blish. Anyway, something that jumped out at me, even as a nipper, was a throwaway reference to Klingons being "of Oriental stock". It suggested the Klingons were actually a human offshoot. That still strikes me as quite a cool idea. Probably not a lost colony, but a Traveller-style transplant of cavemen in prehistory. Which would also help explain the intensity of the rivalry with Earth.

 

[Agemegos]

I remember having a paperback of short story adaptations of some TOS episodes. I think it was by James Blish. Anyway, something that jumped out at me, even as a nipper, was a throwaway reference to Klingons being "of Oriental stock". It suggested the Klingons were actually a human offshoot. That still strikes me as quite a cool idea. Probably not a lost colony, but a Traveller-style transplant of cavemen in prehistory. Which would also help explain the intensity of the rivalry with Earth.

Vulcans are interfertile with humans and Romulans.

 

[finarvyn]

I remember having a paperback of short story adaptations of some TOS episodes. I think it was by James Blish. Anyway, something that jumped out at me, even as a nipper, was a throwaway reference to Klingons being "of Oriental stock". It suggested the Klingons were actually a human offshoot. That still strikes me as quite a cool idea. Probably not a lost colony, but a Traveller-style transplant of cavemen in prehistory. Which would also help explain the intensity of the rivalry with Earth.

I wouldn't put too much stock in any information gleaned from the Blish books. Even though they were done in the 1970's, it would appear that often Blish was working from an early draft or something like that, because often his stories were nothing like the actual episodes.

I wish that someone would go back and re-do those books, only in episode order (the Blish ones were random, I assume starting with favorites first?) and fill in information to tie them all together. Sort of like what Alan Dean Foster did with the animated series in the "Log" books. Some of the Log book stories took a 25-minute animated episode and made it a mini-novel.

 

[finarvyn]

I haven't been watching The Lower Decks cartoon although I heard good things but the recent crossover episode with Strange New Worlds was fun and clever, I guess I should dip in and check it out?

I saw the crossover episode last night with my wife, and then we decided to try out episode #1 of Lower Decks. It was okay but I'm not sure if I'm really into comedy Trek. We can't decide if we want to continue with Lower Decks or not, so I'm not sure what to advise you. Strange New Worlds is fantastic IMO, however, so I definitely suggest watching that!