First impressions on testing Vampire: the Masquerade 5th edition

[Imperator]

Hello, people.

Tonight we're running our second session in Chicago by Noght 1st ed using V5 rules. We started the campaign using the 20th anniversary edition, but one I got the physical books and had the chance to read them (I backed the whole corebook / Camarilla / Anarch slipcase deal), I decided that I liked what I was reading too much, so I proposed my players to switch systems. After some grumbling, and given that they're newbies, they accepted.

We have played just one short session, and the game looks good so far, though some systems have yet to fully enter play. Has anyone else here tried the game? What are your impressions? If all goes well, I'd like to update this thread with a short report of the second session.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Definitely interested in a session report on this. Read all the books but I haven't used them yet.

 

[Séadna]

Switched from V20 to 5E midway through a still ongoing game. The players enjoy the 5E mechanics more, such as the hunger mechanics and blood resonance. However the favourite mechanic is the hunger die, many have enjoyed getting a "violent" success that got what they wanted but the character went over the top.

 

[Imperator]

At the moment we had a bestial failure which triggered a Compulsion, and the basic dice system is neat. It's likely that this session will have more combat and we'll get to test it

 

[tenbones]

Keep us informed. I'm waffling on 5e... I own the V20 stuff... but I'm a sucker for a new ruleset.

 

[KrakaJak]

I like it. The hunger mechanic, and messy criticals/bestial failures are a blast. The combat system is not super straightforward, but after learning it, I liked it a lot. It takes a couple steps towards Tunnels and Trolls, which I did not expect. I feel like the thinblooded rules make the rulebook feel like 2 games in one, since they are so completely different from "standard" kindred.

My players did not get along with the Convictions/Touchstones/Tenet mechanics. I can say some players admittedly tried to game the system, and every time I put their convictions into play, or their touchstones in danger....there was a lot of resentment and arguments at the table. The chronicle tenets were also more pro-vampire in our game (i.e. "Kindred are greater than Kine" was an exact Tenet), and not really based on any relatable moral code, which may have been bending the system farther than it was supposed to go.

 

[Lessa]

Keep informing us, Imperator!

Oh, and nice to see you around these parts, dude.

 

[Doc Sammy]

Best of luck to you, hope it goes well.

I'm more of a V20 fan, but if you can make V5 work for you then I am all for it.

 

[FeralToaster]

Always interested in hearing peoples experiences with the new system. How are you handling the elders power levels in the setting?

 

[Trippy]

Yes. We played through a campaign using V5 last year, and will be doing it again. The rules are, plainly, better than they have been in any previous edition - and much more supportive of the types of theme they have always mooted in the text before.

 

[FeralToaster]

Yes. We played through a campaign using V5 last year, and will be doing it again. The rules are, plainly, better than they have been in any previous edition - and much more supportive of the types of theme they have always mooted in the text before.

and you and your group didn't mind the loss of support for the now excluded play styles?

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

and you and your group didn't mind the loss of support for the now excluded play styles?

My view at least is that the playstyles in question mostly didn't have mechanical support in the first case. So that's more the status quo remaining as opposed to an actual loss.

(Apart from maybe Elder's games which had sourcebook support. That has gone, although it could return in the future).

 

[FeralToaster]

well thank you for your honest opinion. While I am still neutral on V5 I probably will hop on and give it a try when the elder book or the Inconnu source book are finally out.

 

[Trippy]

and you and your group didn't mind the loss of support for the now excluded play styles?

No playstyle was dropped - the actual play mooted in the text was supported.

 

[The Butcher]

Subbed. Looking forward to your take on it.

 

[FeralToaster]

No playstyle was dropped - the actual play mooted in the text was supported.

is "mooted in the text" a term in the new corebook because the word "mooted" means to raise a question in discussion or debated.

 

[Trippy]

is "mooted in the text" a term in the new corebook because the word "mooted" means to raise a question in discussion or debated.

The way the game is described in the text, with the themes expressed, is how the rules are designed to work. When I say mooted, I mean that this is how the game discusses itself as a game. Googled definitions rarely show nuance.

 

[Voros]

Considering the huge range of campaign options outlined in the GM section I think V5 enables a wider range of play than the previous VtM and CoD core books. The only real expectation is that you are playing vampires who are monsters, although the possibilty of playing vampire hunters is also touched upon.

 

[Trippy]

Considering the huge range of campaign options outlined in the GM section I think V5 enables a wider range of play than the previous VtM and CoD core books. The only real expectation is that you are playing vampires who are monsters, although the possibilty of playing vampire hunters is also touched upon.

Precisely.

Actually, there is a Second Inquisition book set for release this year. It would actually be a bold call to make it the first stand-alone supplemental game in the new WoD series in my view. Basically, make it Hunter: The Second Inquisition. Not sure if it will happen though - but the material would work.

 

[FeralToaster]

The way the game is described in the text, with the themes expressed, is how the rules are designed to work. When I say mooted, I mean that this is how the game discusses itself as a game. Googled definitions rarely show nuance.

alright, "how the game discusses itself as a game" but is that honest discussion when elder powers are just taken away from the mechanics of the corebook? reducing the power levels may enhance the playstyle of a street level chronicle but are they still consistent with the themes of ancient conspiracy of immortals?

Considering the huge range of campaign options outlined in the GM section I think V5 enables a wider range of play than the previous VtM and CoD core books. The only real expectation is that you are playing vampires who are monsters, although the possibilty of playing vampire hunters is also touched upon.

while yes, it was good of Ken Hite to underscore that vampires are monsters and is an improvement I agree with. Do you include V20 when you
say V5 has a wider range? Even when V20 still has a much wider selection of discplines and clans in the corebook?

 

[Imperator]

OK, the game ran fairly well, and there was some combat between the coterie and a corpse posessed by an evil spirit (we're playing Blood at Dawn, the module that came with the 1e screen, after completing Ashes to Ashes). Some quick notes:

- We definitely like the new Hunger mechanics much better than the previous Blood Pool rules. Not knowing how much will exactly cost you to do stuff is great. If you get lucky, you may use Disciplines and boost rolls (you can now boost all Attributes, not only Physical), and end the situation as you began. Or not. In the fight, one of my players used Potence, boosted Strength & Dexterity and ended atthe same Hunger level, another ended with Hunger 4 with similar exertion.
- Ambitions & Desires are more effective as motivators, because their impact on Willpower restoration is great, as the size of the WP pool is lower than in V20, in average. The flexibility of being able to change your desire in the moment is great, too.
- Combat seems more streamlined, but due to our lack of familiarity with it, it dragged a bit. Part of it at least will become less of a problem as we get more acquainted with it.
- Frenzy rules are BRUTAL, as now you resist frenzy with your current WP+ 1/3 of your Humanity (round down). Brujah are in for a tough time.
- The new Bane for Toreador can be a pain in the ass
- Haven't had yet the chance of testing the Humanity rules, Convictions and the like. At the moment is hard for me to keep all of those things in mind and struggle with the new system. My goal for the next session is to try and introduce them gradually.
- New Disciplines are capped at 5, but they're definitely more useful than previous iterations. We like them a lot better.

And that's it, back to work. Overall, I'm liking it more and more.

 

[Trippy]

alright, "how the game discusses itself as a game" but is that honest discussion when elder powers are just taken away from the mechanics of the corebook? reducing the power levels may enhance the playstyle of a street level chronicle but are they still consistent with the themes of ancient conspiracy of immortals?

Yes it is an honest discussion, because it's merely the first book in what is due to be a series of books. It's aiming at establishing the core of the game, and fleshing it out with more clarity of purpose and internal consistency of setting and system, before moving on. The original game (1E onwards) had years of supplements before getting round to doing anything involving Elders. V5 is perfectly consistent with the theme of an ancient conspiracy of immortals, as much as it ever was - not sure why you think it isn't?

while yes, it was good of Ken Hite to underscore that vampires are monsters and is an improvement I agree with. Do you include V20 when you say V5 has a wider range? Even when V20 still has a much wider selection of discplines and clans in the corebook?

Which only works as an approach if you are happy that trying to cram every possible supplemental development of the game for the previous 20 years into a single massive tomb is not going to overwhelm any potential new player. V20 had a different goal and audience to the one's set out for V5. Moreover, it was not attempting to widen the remit of the game, merely consolidate what had come before. In terms of future potential, V5 has a wider range. In terms of what it offers directly from the core, it has more readily accessible options than V20 - and is a better designed game.

 

[Imperator]

Also, it has to be noted that, through the corebook and the Anarch and Camarilla books, it's stated fairly clearly that no one expects the Gehena War to last forever, so at a certain point we'll have again very low Generation vampires with monstrous Disciplines running around. Obviously, they will have their own book.

But, for example, in Chicago by Night all the remaining Elders that have managed to escape Beckoning have Disciplines at 5 or less. Lots of them, true. But tehy have been weakened by in-game events.

 

[Voros]

...say V5 has a wider range? Even when V20 still has a much wider selection of discplines and clans in the corebook?

I meant that V5 provides a wider range of campaign options and approaches to play. I wouldn't personally consider merely more mechanics as actually a wider range of play. By that logic 3.5e D&D has a wider range of play than 5e simply because it has more spells and classes.

 

[FeralToaster]

Yes it is an honest discussion, because it's merely the first book in what is due to be a series of books. It's aiming at establishing the core of the game, and fleshing it out with more clarity of purpose and internal consistency of setting and system, before moving on. The original game (1E onwards) had years of supplements before getting round to doing anything involving Elders. V5 is perfectly consistent with the theme of an ancient conspiracy of immortals, as much as it ever was - not sure why you think it isn't?

Which only works as an approach if you are happy that trying to cram every possible supplemental development of the game for the previous 20 years into a single massive tomb is not going to overwhelm any potential new player. V20 had a different goal and audience to the one's set out for V5. Moreover, it was not attempting to widen the remit of the game, merely consolidate what had come before. In terms of future potential, V5 has a wider range. In terms of what it offers directly from the core, it has more readily accessible options than V20 - and is a better designed game.

"...the first book in the series of books" but the corebook V20 didn't need a series of sub corebooks to be as useful as it from the get go. It has supplements to be sure but they weren't necessary to enjoy the core game experience.

"Which only works as an approach if you are happy that trying to cram every possible supplemental development of the game for the previous 20 years into a single massive tomb is not going to overwhelm any potential new player" one large corebbok with everything one need to play rather then hopping on a sourcebook treadmill hoping that the next supplement you buy will have the rules/clan/bloodline you want? The choice is clear to the discerning consumer.

"V20 had a different goal and audience to the one's set out for V5." While yes it is always nice artistically for a new edition of an rpg to break new ground and reach new audiences I'm not sure if V5 took the right approach placing the already existing consumers of V20 second to a potential audience that would be brought in through Bloodlines 2 or that TV show they said they planned to make but didn't.

 

[Voros]

"...the first book in the series of books" but the corebook V20 didn't need a series of sub corebooks to be as useful as it from the get go. It has supplements to be sure but they weren't necessary to enjoy the core game experience.

"Which only works as an approach if you are happy that trying to cram every possible supplemental development of the game for the previous 20 years into a single massive tomb is not going to overwhelm any potential new player" one large corebbok with everything one need to play rather then hopping on a sourcebook treadmill hoping that the next supplement you buy will have the rules/clan/bloodline you want? The choice is clear to the discerning consumer.

"V20 had a different goal and audience to the one's set out for V5." While yes it is always nice artistically for a new edition of an rpg to break new ground and reach new audiences I'm not sure if V5 took the right approach placing the already existing consumers of V20 second to a potential audience that would be brought in through Bloodlines 2 or that TV show they said they planned to make but didn't.

It worked for me.

I had read some of the earlier WoD/CoD books but never had any interest in running them because because the mechanics seemed clunky. I found the endless number of clans and overdetailed lore in WW and Onyx's products excessive and arthritic.

The main attraction of 5e to me was that it is relatively streamlined and potentially very stripped down if one opts for the one roll combat option.

The audience for Onyx has been shrinking with each passing year as the reliance on pdfs and KS to the converted only show, if the game is to survive past the hardcore audience it needed to be stripped down for newbies. 5e D&D compared to 3e/4e was obviously their model.

 

[Trippy]

"...the first book in the series of books" but the corebook V20 didn't need a series of sub corebooks to be as useful as it from the get go. It has supplements to be sure but they weren't necessary to enjoy the core game experience.

It was literally designed to be a last 'thank you' note to established fans at what was considered to be the end of a line at the time it was originally released. It tried to be a 'greatest hits album' of everything that came before in the previous 20 years.

And they still made supplements for it!

one large corebbok with everything one need to play rather then hopping on a sourcebook treadmill hoping that the next supplement you buy will have the rules/clan/bloodline you want? The choice is clear to the discerning consumer.

A discerning consumer wants quality not quantity.

The notion that having a 500+ page book can actually make the game more accessible is flawed insofar that it puts off players who find it overwhelming. Moreover, you don't normally need a whole bunch of supplements - frequently about aspects of the game that may be quite redundant in play for particular game groups. If you want to buy supplements you can choose to do so, but what I look in core rules books are well expressed concepts that are self contained and coherent enough that my own imagination can expand through any potential presented within it. In terms of my own play, the more a game tries to create canonical detail, the less personalised opportunities there is in actual play to employ my own imagination. Less is more.

I do get supplements for games, when I think they are useful to my game - but the idea that I need to cram everything into one book is substantially less useful to me - and actually inhibits the potential of the game. Giant RPG core rule books is basically a fad of recent times, but it's actually quite poor design when it comes to building audiences and game development.

While yes it is always nice artistically for a new edition of an rpg to break new ground and reach new audiences I'm not sure if V5 took the right approach placing the already existing consumers of V20 second to a potential audience that would be brought in through Bloodlines 2 or that TV show they said they planned to make but didn't.

Well, the future development and success of V5 remains to be seen, but it has already managed to outsell the very limited release that V20 achieved over the course of it's 8 year run, as much as anything else because they actually made it a retail product. The existing customers of V20 are not quite as big a market as you might think, and it's all through online sales.

 

[FeralToaster]

It worked for me.

I had read some of the earlier WoD/CoD books but never had any interest in running them because because the mechanics seemed clunky.

The main attraction of 5e to me was that it is relatively streamlined and potentially very stripped down if one opts for the one roll combat option. I found the endless number of clans and overdetailed lore in WW and Onyx's products excessive and arthritic.

cool, my first impulse after reading the mechanics of old WoD was to convert eveything to Gurps.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

V20 isn't so much a corebook as a compendium. Its very purpose was to draw all the disparate strands of VTM together in one book. (Although I miss some of the weird shit that was put out like the stuff on Vampires and religion). So yeah, it's going to have a lot more crunch. Partly because it only needed to revise some of the old information; it wasn't a new game being written.

 

[FeralToaster]

It was literally designed to be a last 'thank you' note to established fans at what was considered to be the end of a line at the time it was originally released. It tried to be a 'greatest hits album' of everything that came before in the previous 20 years.

And they still made supplements for it!

A discerning consumer wants quality not quantity. The notion that having a 500 page book can actually make the game more accessible is flawed insofar that it puts off players who find it overwhelming. Moreover, you don't normally need a whole bunch of supplements - frequently about aspects of the game that may be quite redundant in play for particular game-groups. If you want to buy supplements you can, but in terms of a core rules book what I look for are well expressed concepts that are self contained and coherent enough that my own imagination can expand through any potential presented within it. In terms of my own play, the more a game tries to create canonical detail, the less personalised opportunities there is in actual play. I do get supplements for games, when I think they are useful to my game - but the idea that I need to cram everything into one book is substantially less useful to me - and actually inhibits the potential of the game.

Giant RPG core rule books is basically a fad of recent times, but it's actually quite poor design when it comes to building audiences and game development.

Well, the future development and success of V5 remains to be seen, but it has already managed to outsell the very limited release that V20 achieved over the course of it's 8 year run, as much as anything else because they actually made it a retail product. The existing customers of V20 are not quite as big a market as you might think, and it's all through online sales.

"It was literally designed to be a last 'thank you' note to established fans at what was considered to be the end of a line at the time it was originally released. It tried to be a 'greatest hits album' of everything that came before in the previous 20 years.

And they still made supplements for it!" Certainly then a 'thank you' note to the fans that was commercially successful to have supplement after supplement successfully kickstartered would point to the V20 being a better marketing path (whether deliberate or accidentally) then V5's decision to bring new fans in through those two awful choose your own adventure games, a cosmetic line, and the upcoming Bloodlines 2.

"A discerning consumer wants quality not quantity." I really wouldn't go for the quality approach with V5 after both the Anarch and Camarilla books were pulled from Drivethrurpg for the ah, "unfortunate" that the writers wrote and the editors let go out"

"Well, the future development and success of V5 remains to be seen, but it has already managed to outsell the very limited release that V20 achieved over the course of it's 8 year run, as much as anything else because they actually made it a retail product. The existing customers of V20 are not quite as big a market as you might think, and it's all through online sales." I would argue that the success of the franchise is dependant on Bloodlines 2 being well received regardless of whether you prefer V5 or V20.

 

[Imperator]

I have to say, you can fully play a satisfying campaign with the V5 corebook only, just as you could perfectly play a campaign with only the 1st ed book. New clans being revealed in different books is nothing new, and I doubt is going to impede someone to enjoy the game.

Don't get me wrong F FeralToaster , I love V20 to bits, but it's a mammoth 528 pages book who is meant only for someone who already plays and loves Vampire, and wants everything or almost everything in a single book. And it succeeded, as it shows its commercial success and the fact that more supplements were written. But I understand that WW didn't want to divide their intended audience between different collections, and certainly V5 works much better as an introduction.

By the way, I have the uncensored Camarilla PDF with the chapter about Chechnya that was removed and, to be honest, I still don't understand the outrage.

 

[Trippy]

Certainly then a 'thank you' note to the fans that was commercially successful to have supplement after supplement successfully kickstartered would point to the V20 being a better marketing path (whether deliberate or accidentally) then V5's decision to bring new fans in through those two awful choose your own adventure games, a cosmetic line, and the upcoming Bloodlines 2.

V20 has never, throughout it's history, sold as much as V5. Kickstarter campaigns, PDF and POD amount to a fraction of retail sales, which in turn would amount to a fraction of the profits accumulated through licensed computer games. If you think that V20's marketing is superior to that of V5, then you don't understand business.

"A discerning consumer wants quality not quantity." I really wouldn't go for the quality approach with V5 after both the Anarch and Camarilla books were pulled from Drivethrurpg for the ah, "unfortunate" that the writers wrote and the editors let go out"

We are talking about the core rules here, so this is a strawman.

I would argue that the success of the franchise is dependant on Bloodlines 2 being well received regardless of whether you prefer V5 or V20.

More money is to be found in computer games, for sure, but the quality of the brand that is being sold is critically important. V20 is not marketable as much as V5 because it lacks accessibility to new audiences.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Certainly then a 'thank you' note to the fans that was commercially successful to have supplement after supplement successfully kickstartered would point to the V20 being a better marketing path (whether deliberate or accidentally) then V5's decision to bring new fans in through those two awful choose your own adventure games, a cosmetic line, and the upcoming Bloodlines 2.

I'd totally agree that some bad marketing decisions were made. I'd not include Bloodlines 2 in that, because that really has seen a lot of buzz already. As long as the game doesn't suck it'll be fine.

And KS is great for upfront capital. Whether it leads to long term stability for a product line is a lot more debatable. (See all the boardgames that fund, get hyped on BGG for a month or so and then are never heard from again).

I really wouldn't go for the quality approach with V5 after both the Anarch and Camarilla books were pulled from Drivethrurpg for the ah, "unfortunate" that the writers wrote and the editors let go out"

Have you seen the offending section? Honestly, it was a tempest in a teacup. I'm not saying it wasn't clunky and even a bit bad taste. But it only gained traction because some people were looking for reasons to hate V5 already. I've said elsewhere that if it had appeared in an Arc Dream game nobody would have batted an eyelid.

I would argue that the success of the franchise is dependant on Bloodlines 2 being well received regardless of whether you prefer V5 or V20.

My understanding at least is that current sales are already pretty good, when you take the overall RPG market as your baseline.

 

[Trippy]

By the way, I have the uncensored Camarilla PDF with the chapter about Chechnya that was removed and, to be honest, I still don't understand the outrage.

Same here, and no, the hysterical reaction didn't seem to be warranted. Moreover, much of the outrage came from people who later admitted to not being fans of the Vampire game (or indeed the horror genre), regardless.

 

[FeralToaster]

I have to say, you can fully play a satisfying campaign with the V5 corebook only, just as you could perfectly play a campaign with only the 1st ed book. New clans being revealed in different books is nothing new, and I doubt is going to impede someone to enjoy the game.

Don't get me wrong F FeralToaster , I love V20 to bits, but it's a mammoth 528 pages book who is meant only for someone who already plays and loves Vampire, and wants everything or almost everything in a single book. And it succeeded, as it shows its commercial success and the fact that more supplements were written. But I understand that WW didn't want to divide their intended audience between different collections, and certainly V5 works much better as an introduction.

By the way, I have the uncensored Camarilla PDF with the chapter about Chechnya that was removed and, to be honest, I still don't understand the outrage.

I'm always glad to hear when some tries out a new edition or a new playstyle for the first time and hear what they have today about it. I apologize if I hijacked your thread with my grumblings.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

There is some types of campaign I think V20 does do better. Partly because V5 has a much tighter design focus. Which I've come to prefer these days, but a lot of people like toolkits.

What I think V20 is better suited for, at least currently:

Elder campaigns.

Sabbat campaigns.

Gonzo anything goes games.

V5 is better at:

Anarch campaigns.

Locally focused campaigns.

Horror in general.

What neither are good at:

Action adventure.

 

[FeralToaster]

Oh just to clear up some loose ends.

When I brought up 'bloodlines 2' I had meant them now being able to time the release of the new edition to the release of the trailer. It seems like a wasted opportunity. Not that I thought it would be a bad game.

Trippy, I would point out that the new edition is sold as a single three book slipcase corebook, Camarilla, and Anarch. Similar to the old DnD boxsets, they are all part of the core game experience that is way I mentioned the "unfortunate" passages (for what it is worth yes I read the passages and found them tone deaf and hamfisted rather then offensive) as a slip in terms of quality. It is not a strawman argument unless you thing the individual booklets in a DnD box set are unrelated to each other.

 

[Trippy]

Trippy, I would point out that the new edition is sold as a single three book slipcase corebook, Camarilla, and Anarch. Similar to the old DnD boxsets, they are all part of the core game experience that is way I mentioned the "unfortunate" passages (for what it is worth yes I read the passages and found them tone deaf and hamfisted rather then offensive) as a slip in terms of quality. It is not a strawman argument unless you thing the individual booklets in a DnD box set are unrelated to each other.

The corebook is sold separately and, aside from fulfilling orders of the slipcase, the Camarilla and Anarch books are set to be discontinued. They are supplements to the core and unessential to playing the game, which is 'complete' in terms of general play with the core game alone. They don't occupy the same functional use as D&D's Monster Manual or DM's Guide as they are types of 'splatbook' more than anything else. In all, when comparing V20 to V5, the inclusion of them in your argument is a strawman. Moreover, I disagree with the assertion that the Camarilla and Anarch books were anything like as bad as has been claimed by some.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

The corebook is sold separately and, aside from fulfilling orders of the slipcase, the Camarilla and Anarch books are set to be discontinued. They are supplements to the core and unessential to playing the game, which is 'complete' in terms of general play with the core game alone. Moreover, I disagree with the assertion that the Camarilla and Anarch books were anything like as bad as has been claimed by some.

I did think they were overly focused on gameworld fiction to the expense of stuff directly usable in a game.

 

[Trippy]

I did think they were overly focused on gameworld fiction to the expense of stuff directly usable in a game.

I just asked Modiphius to cancel my slipcase order and replace it with a Deluxe book - which they dutifully did. I simply didn't find them particularly useful to me - a feeling which was accentuated when they were being censored for no good reason.