Anime and Manga Discussion Thread

[Voros]

I started watching NGE on Netflix with subs. Not what I was expecting after all the praise, I think I’ll have to lower my expectations. I think I was spoiled by having the first TV anime I watched as an adult be Cowboy Bebop and Satoshi Kon’s Paranoia Agent.

 

[Templum Domini]

I started watching NGE on Netflix with subs. Not what I was expecting after all the praise, I think I’ll have to lower my expectations. I think I was spoiled by having the first TV anime I watched as an adult be Cowboy Bebop and Satoshi Kon’s Paranoia Agent.

View attachment 10145

I heard that Netflix NGE has had a lot of negative changes, though...

 

[Voros]

I heard that Netflix NGE has had a lot of negative changes, though...

I doubt those changes (end credit music, dubbing, gay character subplot) have much to do with what is leaving me unimpressed.

 

[Templum Domini]

I doubt those changes (end credit music, dubbing, gay character subplot) have much to do with what is leaving me unimpressed.

Then what leaves you unimpressed, then?

 

[EmperorNorton]

Eva only really works in one of two cases imo:

1. Edgy 14 year olds
2. When understood as a deconstruction of the genre that came before it.

At this point, a lot of the deconstruction it did is seen as more "norm", with stuff following up on it. It was much more impactful at the time it was made than it would be for someone watching it now, unless you watch it from the perspective of the time it was written.

That said, i still think Eva is vastly overrated. But I think Cowboy Bebop is vastly overrated as well so *shrug*.

 

[Voros]

Then what leaves you unimpressed, then?

Just so I’m clear I’m not out to shit on a series others clearly love but since I was asked:

Too much silliness and tired anime tropes. I understand that the series deconstructs the cliches eventually but I found it far too painful to sit through the early episodes to get to ‘the good stuff.’

I think that’s because I find the characters too uninteresting as that wasn’t an issue with Madoka for instance.

And now that I’ve completed the series I found the last two episodes really quite terrible, heavy-handed, pseduo-profound and the ending half-baked and anti-climatic.

To me Yoshiyuki Tomino’s early mecha anime like Zambot and MSG manages to deal with surprisingly dark themes in an anime format with few of the flaws I found in EVA. So in many ways the premier example of the genre that EVA is ‘deconstructing’ is actually better at deconstructing itself than EVA. I think Madoka also set the bar high for me for deconstructed anime and EVA did not clear it for me.

 

[Voros]

That said, i still think Eva is vastly overrated. But I think Cowboy Bebop is vastly overrated as well so *shrug*.

I find Cowboy Bebop tremendously fun. Something missing from so much anime. It was also well animated, clever and perhaps rarest of all in anime had a great soundtrack (I find most anime theme songs painfully bad). It shouldn’t be seen as a towering achievement per se but a bare minimum most other anime should meet.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Well as for the last two episodes of Eva, that is very much related to budget and time issues.

As for Bebop being "fun"... ehhhh. I guess. There are a few standout episodes that I find really good, like the lobster and mushroom episodes. But mostly its just repetitive and doesn't go anywhere. There are about 4 episodes of the entire series that matter at all. Hell, most of the story, outside of like the last episode, actually happens before the series even starts. The music is good, but there are way better series that have music that is just as good (Infinite Ryvius has outstanding music for instance).

Also, I'm not sure what part of it would be considered clever? It's a straightforward story. There is nothing clever about it.

 

[Voros]

Well as for the last two episodes of Eva, that is very much related to budget and time issues.

As for Bebop being "fun"... ehhhh. I guess. There are a few standout episodes that I find really good, like the lobster and mushroom episodes. But mostly its just repetitive and doesn't go anywhere. There are about 4 episodes of the entire series that matter at all. Hell, most of the story, outside of like the last episode, actually happens before the series even starts. The music is good, but there are way better series that have music that is just as good (Infinite Ryvius has outstanding music for instance).

Also, I'm not sure what part of it would be considered clever? It's a straightforward story. There is nothing clever about it.

Sure, I got that about the ending of EVA but that doesn’t excuse the poor writing and wet fart of a resolution.

As for Cowboy Bebop I watched it in an episodic manner so any overarching story didn’t grab me. Wasn’t really aware there was one per se.

I find the characters more likeable and dialogue fast-paced and reasonably amusing than in most anime. Most anime comedy I find cringe-inducing.

I did like Princess Jellyfish though, which also has good theme music.

 

[TristramEvans]

Eva only really works in one of two cases imo:

1. Edgy 14 year olds
2. When understood as a deconstruction of the genre that came before it.

Nah, I can think of other ways it works, considering I was neither an edgy 14 year old nor cognizant enough of the genre it was deconstructing to appreciate that aspect at the time I first saw it.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah I agree. There is something quite deeply splendid and flawed about NGE that is very difficult to replicate. It is divisive but that is part of why it is good IMO. My personal favourite moment is End of Evangelion

Recently I have been reading the continuity theories around the anime, movies, and manga. If even half of it is true (and with NGE who can tell) then it is mind blowing.

 

[EmperorNorton]

TristramEvans Fair enough. When I was a teenager tons of people just insisted I watch it and then I did and went... OK that was "fine". I actually enjoy it more now because I understand the deconstruction. Back then it was just like "ok, this was decent, but I don't get the fuss."

I'm sure there are other ways to enjoy it (I do think that it did solid things with the mecha fights, in that it limited them to very short bursts, as inevitably the cord would get cut, and the animation, especially the early episodes, was very good for the time).

 

[Ronin]

I'm a big of fan of what one might refer to as the "realistic" genre when it comes to manga/anime. I love "realistic" giant robots/future. So Gundam (for the most part all of them. Some are better than others. (I'm looking at you MS 08)), Armored trooper VOTOMS, Ghost in the shell, and Cowboy Bebop. I also enjoy what I would call "modern realistic". So things like Black Lagoon, and Gunsmith Cats. (Gunsmith Cats manga while a bit pervy is better than the anime) At the same time I like some more powerful/supernatural stuff. Such as Outlaw Star, and Hellsing. (Hellsing the anime is meh. The manga is fucking awesome. No, like you need to go read it all right now, good.)

 

[EmperorNorton]

Ronin have you seen Hellsing Ultimate? The OVA. It is much closer to the manga, and much better than the TV series they did.

 

[Luca]

And now that I’ve completed the series I found the last two episodes really quite terrible, heavy-handed, pseduo-profound and the ending half-baked and anti-climatic.

To me Yoshiyuki Tomino’s early mecha anime like Zambot and MSG manages to deal with surprisingly dark themes in an anime format with few of the flaws I found in EVA. So in many ways the premier example of the genre that EVA is ‘deconstructing’ is actually better at deconstructing itself than EVA. I think Madoka also set the bar high for me for deconstructed anime and EVA did not clear it for me.

This is also my opinion almost word-for-word. I've never understood the "deconstruction" argument about NGE.

Madoka is a deconstruction, and it's pure genius.
NGE is just badly written.

 

[Bashere]

So Gundam has been very popular of the years and I have been curious about it. However there is so much I'd have no clue where to start and could use some advice on that.

 

[TristramEvans]

This is also my opinion almost word-for-word. I've never understood the "deconstruction" argument about NGE.

Well, it's not an argument (it's an obvious), and the deconstruction has nothing to do with the final episodes.

 

[TristramEvans]

So Gundam has been very popular of the years and I have been curious about it. However there is so much I'd have no clue where to start and could use some advice on that.

Gundam Wing is a really good entry point and a nice self-contained series with a satisfying conclusion.

 

[Templum Domini]

So Gundam has been very popular of the years and I have been curious about it. However there is so much I'd have no clue where to start and could use some advice on that.

With UC, try the originals. With the Alternate Universes, try any of them.

Disclaimer: I haven't watched more than a few episodes of any Gundam Show.

 

[Luca]

Well, it's not an argument (it's an obvious), and the deconstruction has nothing to do with the final episodes.

I disagree. To be a deconstruction (or anything else, really), you first need to make sense.
The final episodes didn't make any sense to me, so neither did the entire series.

 

[TristramEvans]

I disagree. To be a deconstruction (or anything else, really), you first need to make sense.

The final episodes didn't make any sense to me, so neither did the entire series.

I bolded the relevant part

 

[Luca]

I bolded the relevant part

Well, if you can also quote the message in which I claim to speak for others...
This tangent started with my "I've never understood the deconstruction argument". I stand by that assessment.

 

[Gabriel]

So Gundam has been very popular of the years and I have been curious about it. However there is so much I'd have no clue where to start and could use some advice on that.

As starting places I would recommend one of two OAVs, both in the Universal Century timeline. I think both are good introductions to the Gundam feel.

Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory
Gundam 08th MS Team

Both are military focused, but about as "military" as Star Trek. I personally like Stardust Memory more than MS Team, as well as feel the former has better mecha action. For the uninitiated, I'd say Stardust Memory is more about flashy space dogfights while MS Team is about grittier ground pounder infantry stuff.

If you like one or both of them, then it's time for a big series.

My first choice is Gundam Z. It's the gold standard of traditional main timeline Gundam. It's 50 episodes long, and takes a while to get going, so be prepared for a long haul. But once the characterization and melodrama kick in, it's a fantastic ride.

As an alternative, I'll also suggest Gundam Seed. It's another 50 episode series, but this time in an alternate timeline. Technically, if you want to just dive in to a long series, then it's a decent starter pick as it requires no previous knowledge. The characters are more traditional anime style characters than the seriously flawed people featured in other Gundam shows. The melodrama is cranked up to eleven. The mecha action is very good, and there are some great designs. I'd say if Stardust or MS Team struck you as good but missing "something" then try this one.

I'd strongly suggest staying far away from the original Mobile Suit Gundam or Gundam Unicorn as your first exposures. The original MSG is horribly dated, and honestly not very good. Gundam Unicorn is a show almost entirely for long time fans. It would be near impenetrable as a first exposure, and as a casual fan the thing came across as one long fanservice to people much more into the franchise than myself. Unicorn also feels nearly devoid of any mecha action.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I disagree on Zeta. It was written during one of Tomino's depressive periods and its obvious. It constantly introduces characters in ways that it seems like they should be important only to kill them ten minutes later, and it does it so many times that it becomes rote and starts to have no impact at all.

Hell sometimes they would kill a character and I couldn't remember who it even was because I had become so bored of them introducing new people to die.

I think Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket is a fantastic microcosm of the themes of the Gundam series as a whole personally.

(Also, to be honest, I think Wing is a fun self contained series, and SEED, if you ignore everything else in that universe (Screw SEED Destiny) is a good re-imagining of the original series)

 

[Gabriel]

I disagree on Zeta. It was written during one of Tomino's depressive periods and its obvious. It constantly introduces characters in ways that it seems like they should be important only to kill them ten minutes later, and it does it so many times that it becomes rote and starts to have no impact at all.

Hell sometimes they would kill a character and I couldn't remember who it even was because I had become so bored of them introducing new people to die.

I think Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket is a fantastic microcosm of the themes of the Gundam series as a whole personally.

(Also, to be honest, I think Wing is a fun self contained series, and SEED, if you ignore everything else in that universe (Screw SEED Destiny) is a good re-imagining of the original series)

Sounds like we have pretty opposite opinions. I really didn't enjoy War in the Pocket. Personally, I found the life is cheap as well as the blood soaked nature of Gundam Z to be one of its best dramatic aspects.

I've never watched Seed Destiny. The conclusion of Seed was good enough for me to feel that any followup would have merely been extraneous.

I'm not a fan of Wing, but I also haven't watched more than a handful of episodes, so I can't really comment on it.

 

[Voros]

So Gundam has been very popular of the years and I have been curious about it. However there is so much I'd have no clue where to start and could use some advice on that.

The original Mobile Solider Gundam (aka. Mobile Suit Gundam) from 79’ is the best I’ve seen and the logical starting point I think. After that like you say there’s so much it gets hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand the ‘dated’ claim against MSG but I’d disagree. Like the best comics of the 60s and 70s I find early MSG better than what followed because you can see Tomino working within the commerical children’s format but doing something really radically different with it. Ditto other early anime like Zambot and Space Battleship Yamato.

I’m surprised to find so many anime fans dismissive or uninterested in early anime, which I usually find to be more interesting than what followed whatever their flaws.

To me a lot of later anime is poorly animated and, like American superhero comics in the 90s, aimed too squarely at the otaku market, so their attempts at being ‘adult’ strike me as both too tropey yet pretentious and adolescent than the earlier material (looking at you Goblinslayer).

 

[EmperorNorton]

Having seen every single Gundam series up to 00... the original Gundam had some weirdly out of place childish jokes and stuff.

 

[R-90-2]

Having seen every single Gundam series up to 00... the original Gundam had some weirdly out of place childish jokes and stuff.

It's like the original Star Trek in that Tomino was still fighting with the execs to get most of his creative vision on-screen. That kind of tonal whiplash was fairly common to a lot of the Super Robot series that predated Gundam.

 

[Voros]

Having seen every single Gundam series up to 00... the original Gundam had some weirdly out of place childish jokes and stuff.

That’s because it was a cartoon for kids. Just like the comics of the 70s. He was working in a very commercial form.

Tonal whiplash is common in many genre live action films from Japan and HK for the same reasons. HK Cat III films in the 80s are infamous for their low-brow humour mixed with grotesque violence.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I'm pointing out that yes, it feels dated because of that. I'm not saying its bad (clearly, as I've made a point to watch as much of Gundam as I have, I think all the series are pretty good up until 00), but it is definitely very dated, and things like treating it like a children's show when it really wasn't are part of why it feels dated.

The later series dropped the pretense of "this is a show for kids" almost entirely.

 

[Voros]

I'm pointing out that yes, it feels dated because of that. You are trying to argue that it doesn't feel dated, but it really really does. I'm not saying its bad (clearly, as I've made a point to watch as much of Gundam as I have, I think all the series are pretty good up until 00), but it is definitely very dated.

The later series dropped the pretense of "this is a show for kids" almost entirely.

Well I tend to disagree with the term ‘dated’ in reference to any good artwork anyways but that’s a whole other debate.

I wouldn’t say it was a pretence that Gundam was a show for kids, it was a show for kids that Tomino was able to introduce more sophisticated material into. My understanding is that it was instrumental in changing anime and sf anime in particular by doing that.

Still, from what I’ve seen Gundam remains overwhelmingly a series aimed at teenagers as does the vast majority of anime. There’s a reason so much anime has teenagers as its protagonists.

The otaku audience complicate that slightly, as does the adult audience for superhero comics in the states, but usually not in a positive way in my opinion. Too much anime (and superhero comics) continues to float between truly adult treatment and adolescent pretentiousness. I find early anime is interesting because of that tension, a lot of later anime is a mess because of it.

 

[EmperorNorton]

There is a difference in "for kids" and "for teenagers".

 

[Voros]

There is a difference in "for kids" and "for teenagers".

Sure but the first series, like almost all anime of the 70s, was expressly aimed at kids. So is the kid stuff out of place or is the darker material out of place? Or just the product of Tomino trying to do something more ambitious in a highly commercial format?

I also find Asian popular art tends to tolerate greater tonal clashes than Western popular forms. I think it makes sense to keep that all in mind when watching it, just as it makes sense to keep the production limitations in mind when watching the last episodes of NGE. Doesn’t mean anyone has to like it though.

 

[EmperorNorton]

You seem to be strongly arguing about something I'm not even saying at this point. Also, weird that you consider "that is just the way it was in the 70s" as an explanation while denying that something can be dated.

 

[EmperorNorton]

My actual point: Because of the restrictions of the time, there is a lot of the original Gundam that will feel dated to a modern viewer. Because Tomino was creating a show with heavier tones, more intended for teenagers and young adults, but working within a medium that expected him to make a show for kids.

Add in that the animation is clearly older, and the score is definitely "of the times", the original series will always feel very dated.

That said, that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it. I tend to find that my enjoyment of it comes mostly though from understanding the culture and time it was created in.

 

[Voros]

I was just kinda thinking out loud on some things not debating your points per se.

To get OT. As I first said I understand the ‘dated’ viewpoint but don’t really agree with it because to me any good artwork doesn’t become dated, as I tend to look at the artwork in context of when and where it was made.

But then if one doesn’t think an artwork is any good, or good enough to overcome the limitations that one views as dated, then I understand why one could argue the work is dated.

I think the virtues of the original series are enough to overcome that, even that what makes it so interesting is to watch Tomino deal with more sophisticated content within the confines of a kids cartoon that probably exists to just sell toys.

 

[Voros]

What are people's opinions on Tokyo Ghoul? I watched the first few episodes and it started well but I was starting to get concerned the more the world-building progressed that it was going to go off the rails.

 

[Luca]

The original Mobile Solider Gundam (aka. Mobile Suit Gundam) from 79’ is the best I’ve seen and the logical starting point I think. After that like you say there’s so much it gets hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand the ‘dated’ claim against MSG but I’d disagree. Like the best comics of the 60s and 70s I find early MSG better than what followed because you can see Tomino working within the commerical children’s format but doing something really radically different with it. Ditto other early anime like Zambot and Space Battleship Yamato.

Agh... first NGE and Madoka, now this. Voros, get out of my head!
Seriously, if you want to know what Gundam is all about, watch the first series and remember that, at the time, we had super robots.

 

[Ronin]

Ronin have you seen Hellsing Ultimate? The OVA. It is much closer to the manga, and much better than the TV series they did.

No I have not. Color me interested.

 

[Ronin]

As starting places I would recommend one of two OAVs, both in the Universal Century timeline. I think both are good introductions to the Gundam feel.

Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory
Gundam 08th MS Team

Both are military focused, but about as "military" as Star Trek. I personally like Stardust Memory more than MS Team, as well as feel the former has better mecha action. For the uninitiated, I'd say Stardust Memory is more about flashy space dogfights while MS Team is about grittier ground pounder infantry stuff.

If you like one or both of them, then it's time for a big series.

My first choice is Gundam Z. It's the gold standard of traditional main timeline Gundam. It's 50 episodes long, and takes a while to get going, so be prepared for a long haul. But once the characterization and melodrama kick in, it's a fantastic ride.

As an alternative, I'll also suggest Gundam Seed. It's another 50 episode series, but this time in an alternate timeline. Technically, if you want to just dive in to a long series, then it's a decent starter pick as it requires no previous knowledge. The characters are more traditional anime style characters than the seriously flawed people featured in other Gundam shows. The melodrama is cranked up to eleven. The mecha action is very good, and there are some great designs. I'd say if Stardust or MS Team struck you as good but missing "something" then try this one.

I'd strongly suggest staying far away from the original Mobile Suit Gundam or Gundam Unicorn as your first exposures. The original MSG is horribly dated, and honestly not very good. Gundam Unicorn is a show almost entirely for long time fans. It would be near impenetrable as a first exposure, and as a casual fan the thing came across as one long fanservice to people much more into the franchise than myself. Unicorn also feels nearly devoid of any mecha action.

I agree with this for the most part. I disagree that Stardust has better mecha action. I think one of the best mecha scenes in all the gundam series can be found in MS 08.