IYO why is GURPS better for Low powered/HERO for High powered campaigns?

[Korgoth]

It is oft said on the internets rpg'o'sphere that GURPS is better for running campaigns/settings that are closer to 'human/normals' power scales and that GURPS tends to break down at higher 'superhero/cosmic' power scales. And it is oft said that the HERO System is better for running at higher power level 'superhero/cosmic' scales but lacks the granularity to run campaigns/settings closer to 'human/normals' power scales.

Now IMO I'd say HERO does lack the amount of 'granularity' I'd like for near normals/heroic roleplaying and has no problem at all modeling superheroic/cosmic scale power level games. (HERO is my all time favourite RPG engine/took-kit and I love it dearly. It's also the system I mechanically know the best and am most comfortable with, 'system mastery' you'd call it)

GURPS however is a system I am only tangentially familiar with (despite owning many world books from the 3E era, and the 4E core books) And I've always had this niggling feeling in the back of my head that I'm cheating on HERO when I begin to read the GURPS rulebooks as their are so many similarities between the two systems (I know I know it's silly, I have the same issue with watching 'Family Guy' vs the Simpsons. It's stupid but it is what it is)

So

I am making a concerted effort to learn GURPS 4E as of late but I also am curious if it's worth the effort in a sense that it will replace HERO as my go to do everything generic rpg engine. Will it handle 'Heroic Scale' games as smoothly and effortlessly as it will Superhero gaming?

Or

Will I never achieve the holy grail of gaming (one system to rule them all)(I'm also a notorious/rabid system collector and ever in search of the 'perfect' RPG engine for any particular genre, let alone the ultimate prize of the perfect generic RPG engine) and just accept that HERO is for High Power stuff and GURPS is for lower powered stuff.

Also feel free to disagree with my thesis and tell me why HERO is the best at Low Powered games and fails at Cosmic Supers or vice versa.

• P.S. Both systems are 3d6 bell curve based at their cores. And a +1 to a roll is a big deal in both systems. So if that is the case, to me at least how can GURPS be more granular/better at human scale/heroic games when many (not all of course) folks feel HERO isn't, yet HERO also uses the 3d6 bell curve, and a +1 or -2 to a skill roll is a pretty big deal. Bigger impacts than a +1 in a d20 game or a +5% or +10% to a roll in a d100/BRP game.
• P.P.S.Thanks in advance for everyone's feedback and opinions. I value the thoughts of those with experience and system knowledge of both rpg engines. And also I'm not looking to poo poo on GURPS or HERO, this question comes from a place of love for both RPG's and Generic systems.

* Post EDITED for grammar/spelling/formatting*

 

[Space_Roadie]

I dont' think you can generalize like that about systems with so many switches. You tweak those switches just right, you can get any feel you want. Same with BRP.

 

[AsenRG]

It is oft said on the internets rpg'o'sphere that GURPS is better for running campaigns/settings that are closer to 'human/normals' power scales and that GURPS tends to break down at higher 'superhero/cosmic' power scales. And it is oft said that the HERO System is better for running at higher power level 'superhero/cosmic' scales but lacks the granularity to run campaigns/settings closer to 'human/normals' power scales.

Well, it's DNA, basically...one of the system grew out of emulating comic books, the other, from a gladiatorial game.

I am making a concerted effort to learn GURPS 4E as of late but I also am curious if it's worth the effort in a sense that will it replace HERO as my go to do everything generic rpg engine. Will it handle 'Heroic Scale' games as smoothly and effortlessly as it will Superhero gaming?

No, IMO GURPS would handle supers with much more effort than it handles heroes.
Admittedly, my experience with GURPS Supers is limited, so take this with a grain of salt.

Will I never achieve the holy grail of gaming (one system to rule them all)(I'm also a notorious/rabid system collector and ever in search of the 'perfect' RPG engine for any particular genre, let alone the ultimate prize of the perfect generic RPG engine) and just accept that HERO is for High Power stuff and GURPS is for lower powered stuff.

It depends...

Have you looked at EABAv2? It just might be what you're looking for. And if you're not afraid of GURPS levels of crunch, it just might be what you want!

I dont' think you can generalize like that about systems with so many switches. You tweak those switches just right, you can get any feel you want. Same with BRP.

Well, yes... but you're going to need more or less effort in play even with the right switches, IME.

 

[robertsconley]

It is oft said on the internets rpg'o'sphere that GURPS is better for running campaigns/settings that are closer to 'human/normals' power scales and that GURPS tends to break down at higher 'superhero/cosmic' power scales. And it is oft said that the HERO System is better for running at higher power level 'superhero/cosmic' scales but lacks the granularity to run campaigns/settings closer to 'human/normals' power scales.

Now IMO I'd say HERO does lack the amount of 'granularity' I'd like for near normals/heroic roleplaying and also that it modelsv
superheroic/cosmic scale power level games really well. (HERO is my all time favourite RPG engine/took-kit and I love it dearly. It's also the system I mechanically know the best and am most comfortable with, 'system mastery' you'd call it)

I concur; HERO 5e is my go-to RPG for superheroes campaigns.

GURPS however is a system I am only tangentially familiar with (despite owning many world books from the 3E era, and the 4E core books) And I've always had this niggling feeling in the back of my head that I'm cheating on HERO when I begin to read the GURPS rulebooks as their are so many similarities between the two systems (I know I know it's silly, I have the same issue with watching 'Family Guy' vs the Simpsons. It's stupid but it is what it is)

I run GURPS campaigns since 1987, and while far more infrequently Champions/Fantasy Hero campaigns since 1985. I don't see a contradiction between using both for different campaigns.

I am making a concerted effort to learn GURPS 4E as of late but I also am curious if it's worth the effort in a sense that will it replace HERO as my go to do everything generic rpg engine. Will it handle 'Heroic Scale' games as smoothly and effortlessly as it will Superhero gaming?

GURPS 4e allows you to build powers with a base effect, enhancements, and limitations. However, it is not as well-organized or well-supported as the Hero System's handling of powers. I recommend 50-point abilities as a reference to see how well it works (or not).

Eric's Dominion: GURPSLand

gurpsland.no-ip.org

Don't go by how powers are handled in 3e. It has been revamped in GURPS 4e.

Will I never achieve the holy grail of gaming (one system to rule them all)(I'm also a notorious/rabid system collector and ever in search of the 'perfect' RPG engine for any particular genre, let alone the ultimate prize of the perfect generic RPG engine) and just accept that HERO is for High Power stuff and GURPS is for lower powered stuff.

The biggest issue you will find are the notes, aides, and other material you created over the years. To be frank, I don't want to convert 35 years of GURPS Majestic Wilderlands to Hero, or 40 years of Champions stuff to GURPS. So I use Hero for superhero campaigns, and GURPS for Fantasy campaigns.



If either was a less detailed obsessed system (which I like), then sure, like I did convert my MW stuff over to OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry (so I can share the setting stuff with others).



I can't say what you have in the way of notes and similar stuff but if you don't have much then the transition will be far less painful than mine.

Bat in the Attic

A blog on 40 years of gaming and Sandbox Fantasy.

batintheattic.blogspot.com

From the Attic: Superheroes

The RPG Pundit asks over on the RPGSite forums If you were to run or play in a superhero campaign, which kind of campaign would you like? Wh...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

Also feel free to disagree with my thesis and tell me why HERO is the best at Low Powered games and fails at Cosmic Supers or vice versa.

• P.S. Both systems are 3d6 bell curve based at their cores. And a +1 to a roll is a big deal in both systems. So if that is the case, to me at least how can GURPS be more granular/better at human scale/heroic games when many (not all of course) folks feel HERO isn't, yet HERO also uses the 3d6 bell curve, and a +1 or -2 to a skill roll is a pretty big deal. Bigger impacts than a +1 in a d20 game or a +5% or +10% to a roll in a d100/BRP game.
• P.P.S.Thanks in advance for anyones feedback and opinions. I value the thoughts of those with experience and system knowledge of both rpg engines. And also I'm not looking to poo poo on GURPS or HERO, this question comes from a place of love for both RPG's and Generic systems.
• P.P.P.S. I'll probably re-post this on the GURPS official & subreddit as well as the official HERO forums for even more thoughts. If I do I'll post a link to those crossposts here on the pub for ease of reference for anyone like me also interested in the question.

GURPS has more details across the human normal spectrum, HERO System handles the extraordinary in a far more straightforward manner than GURPS. But I give both a C+/B- level for the areas they are not strong at. Starting with 4e the HERO system is good enough for human level campaign. Just need to look carefully how you award XP. GURPS 4e is way better at making extraordinary powers than the previous edition, which is nice when you want a monster or supernatural character for an otherwise normal human campaign.

Hope this helps.

 

[pawsplay]

I ran a Fantasy Hero campaign in 4th edition that was grounded. GURPS Monster Hunters is high-powered and runs great. GURPS is a little more detailed at the level of ordinary firearms, whereas Hero scales more effortlessly at the superhero level, but either game can do either job. With fourth edition, GURPS can definitely do supers.

At a certain level of power and detail, both games converge to the same level of complexity. Superman's character sheet is going to be a bear in either system.

 

[Sharrow]

To me the big differences are that GURPS does not handle really high levels of raw physical strength gracefully, and that it assumes that all damage is what Hero would call 'Body' damage.

Hero, on the other hand, has what seems to me to be some slightly clunky rules around melee weapons and Strength (note I've read 5th ed, but only really used 4th, and that many years ago), and it's broader skills and disads mean the resolution feels lower when looking at lower point level characters.

 

[Korgoth]

Have you looked at EABAv2? It just might be what you're looking for. And if you're not afraid of GURPS levels of crunch, it just might be what you want!

Interesting that you brought up EABAv2 as I do own that pdf, as well as the designers earlier work CORPS, but they are both in my gigantic PDF 'to read' pile and I've only digitally flipped through both. I've read as many reviews of both and both rpg engines do interest/appeal to me.


.

 

[chuckdee]

I used GURPS for all when I played. Just didn't like the feel of HERO. And it worked fine for both. I think this is going to vary by user. Personally I don't mind that high levels of strength inflict horrendous damage- but then my superhero campaigns have never shied away from danger (which is the reason I like Godlike/Wild Talents as it has the same paradigm)

 

[War_lord]

I have no experience with HERO. GURPS can certainly do a Superhero. It's just that it involved a lot of tinkering, and spending a lot of points (which means a super unwieldly sheet), and the power scale of a superhero and the narrative considerations means you don't engage with the granular concerns that makes GURPS good (imo).

 

[Baulderstone]

Well, it's DNA, basically...one of the system grew out of emulating comic books, the other, from a gladiatorial game.

Yeah. This is the basic reason. Each game was designed with a different scale, and attempts to move out that scale are always going to be tricky. It's like how D&D was originally designed with 10 levels, and while almost every subsequent edition persists in trying to add more, it's always diminishing returns past that point.

 

[SirFrog]

I counter with Savage Worlds and Cypher System…does everything GUTPS and HERO do without feeling like differential equations homework

 

[pawsplay]

I counter with Savage Worlds and Cypher System…does everything GUTPS and HERO do without feeling like differential equations homework

I feel the need to re-iterate that the highest math Hero requires is improper fractions, which you should have learned in 3rd grade. Math isn't everyone's strong suit, sure, but differential equations, really?

 

[Kage2020]

I feel the need to re-iterate that the highest math Hero requires is improper fractions, which you should have learned in 3rd grade. Math isn't everyone's strong suit, sure, but differential equations, really?

And Vehicles 3e had the temerity to include a square root, which has henceforth tarnished the entire system in the eyes of nigh-on everyone.

 

[Davies]

And Vehicles 3e had the temerity to include a square root, which has henceforth tarnished the entire system in the eyes of nigh-on everyone.

Cube root. "A few of the formulas used for watercraft performance require cube roots to be calculated." (p. 4)

 

[Kage2020]

Cube root. "A few of the formulas used for watercraft performance require cube roots to be calculated." (p. 4)

Cool. I haven't had the need to look at vehicles since the late 90s, so memory is going to be fickle. That and I was reading about GURPS' complexity recently and they referred to it as a square root. Clearly it's their fault. ;)

 

[Davies]

Cool. I haven't had the need to look at vehicles since the late 90s, so memory is going to be fickle. That and I was reading about GURPS' complexity recently and they referred to it as a square root. Clearly it's their fault. ;)

There are square root calculations in that book (and its successors), too, but the cube roots were where I found myself saying, nope.

 

[chuckdee]

I counter with Savage Worlds and Cypher System…does everything GUTPS and HERO do without feeling like differential equations homework

Yeah, I don't know what DiffEQ you had, but GURPS is pretty simple unless you're doing something complex, like vehicles or planetary systems.

 

[Kage2020]

There are square root calculations in that book (and its successors), too, but the cube roots were where I found myself saying, nope.

It's amazing the personal boundaries/thresholds one can have. For me it is often the reinvention of terms to make them sound cool and new. Instead of referring to "margin of success/failure" we're going to call the "Shifts". <rolleyes>

 

[David Johansen]

It seems to me the problem with GURPS lies in the realistic philosophy behind it. The problem is that comics tend to have no concept of scale nor consistancy of comparison. But mechanically, GURPS has never managed to have an elegant, functional, and balanced approach to super strength. Yes strength is more useful than straight damage output. HERO doesn't really distinguish between strength and damage a d6 from either costs 5 points and an inch of running costs the same as an inch of flight. I think GURPS probably should have gone with a doubling cost for strength to match the enhanced move and similar ability scales. It's hard to say, another way would be to simply have an extradimensional mass power. The current Super Effort Strength rule is awful.

 

[AsenRG]

HERO doesn't really distinguish between strength and damage a d6 from either costs 5 points and an inch of running costs the same as an inch of flight.

...how so? Makes no sense, neither from a narrative nor from a general utility POV.

Strength can help you lifting up a car that has someone trapped underneath, carrying more, getting accepted in a sports team, and generally has more utilities, on top of making it easier to kill people. Having a blast that kills people...kills people, period, there's seldom anything else to do with it.

Same for flight vs running, flight overcomes difficult terrain. There should be some price for the ability, at least!

Admittedly, I haven't looked at Hero in much depth, and it was for a pulp game so neither of the above was relevant, but this is something I'd assume was rectified in a supers supplement.

 

[AsenRG]

Interesting that you brought up EABAv2 as I do own that pdf, as well as the designers earlier work CORPS, but they are both in my gigantic PDF 'to read' pile and I've only digitally flipped through both. I've read as many reviews of both and both rpg engines do interest/appeal to me.

Then let me put it this* way...

It is probably a good idea to prioritize the PDF, and it might be closer than either GURPS or Hero to what you have stated you want.

I say that as a self-avowed, but lapsed, GURPS fan.

*Lately, I am trying to not tell people that what I like is what they really want. But I am going to tell you that IMO, there's a strong likelihood you might like that.

 

[sharps54]

Then let me put it this* way...

It is probably a good idea to prioritize the PDF, and it might be closer than either GURPS or Hero to what you have stated you want.

I say that as a self-avowed, but lapsed, GURPS fan.

*Lately, I am trying to not tell people that what I like is what they really want. But I am going to tell you that IMO, there's a strong likelihood you might like that.

How close is EABA to the original rules for Timelords?

 

[sharps54]

AsenRG my experience with their games is solely with the Macho Women with Guns line, TimeLords, SpaceTime and WarpWorld.

I went to wiki for my answer:
“The basics of the TimeLords system provided the framework that would be developed into EABA.”

 

[AsenRG]

How close is EABA to the original rules for Timelords?

Not familiar with the IP, so this is speculation...

However, according to Wikipedia, "[t]he first two editions used a custom d20-based game system; the most recent edition uses the EABA system from BTRC". In fact, in the same article is mentioned that the d20 variants were published by the same designer and publisher, and that Timelords has a version for EAVAv2 as well.

So, I'd guess that the system is closest to the current system of the Timelords. How much was carried forward, is anyone's guess.
My guess, FWIW - but that's from skimming the Wikipedia article - is that the system is simplified compared to the d20 variants, which are noted as excessively complex. I mean, the system attempting to simulate real life is what draws me to BTRC books. But "half the book is combat tables", coupled with d20, is a sell-off even for me...

Mind you, EABA isn't a simple system by any stretch of the imagination, if that's what you're asking - I just expect it would be lighter than those d20 variants, that's all, but it's fully on par with GURPS.
And just like GURPS, it can be cut down to rules-medium, if you try to create something like the EABAlite for EABA1.1, if you adapt it for a specific setting, but the designer isn't doing this for you.
(I guess he expects his customers to be people who want some crunch? Self-selection and all that jazz!)


Bottom line, there's a reason I don't recommend it often, and when I do, it's usually to people who like GURPS and/or Hero!

 

[AsenRG]

AsenRG my experience with their games is solely with the Macho Women with Guns line, TimeLords, SpaceTime and WarpWorld.

I went to wiki for my answer:
"The basics of the TimeLords system provided the framework that would be developed into EABA."

I didn't find that part, but it sure seemed so. Though again, from the description, it seems EABA was simplified...compared to the original d20 system, that is!

And then it also includes many adjustments...


Case in point, you can make "an attack roll" without rolling. If your skill is high enough to succeed when you multiply your dice by 2 (i.e. 7d+2 giving you 16 points), you don't need to...though you can, if you want to achieve higher success levels. But then you can fail, too, so you are "taking your chances".

It's basically a "roll X dice (6-siders), keep best 3". One trait gives you the option of keeping the best 4, and EABA v2 tells you outright that "either every PC should have that, or no PC can". The difference it makes is like between a computer geek and Neo.

Also, the combat example is the fight in the hotel from the Matrix. It is achieved pretty much exactly with the combat system.
That is due to the fact that it does have a "longer fights get more dangerous every round" system, but then the rounds also get longer, too...

 

[David Johansen]

...how so? Makes no sense, neither from a narrative nor from a general utility POV.

Strength can help you lifting up a car that has someone trapped underneath, carrying more, getting accepted in a sports team, and generally has more utilities, on top of making it easier to kill people. Having a blast that kills people...kills people, period, there's seldom anything else to do with it.

Same for flight vs running, flight overcomes difficult terrain. There should be some price for the ability, at least!

Admittedly, I haven't looked at Hero in much depth, and it was for a pulp game so neither of the above was relevant, but this is something I'd assume was rectified in a supers supplement.

Ah! But you get 6" of running and a 10 strength for free. HERO's point costs are almost entirely about tactical viability. One might argue that flight means you're in the open and can't get cover. However the example of superspeed where you can run up the sides of buildings suggests using flight instead of running. HERO's point system is amazing but it's not for the faint of heart.

 

[robertsconley]

HERO doesn't really distinguish between strength and damage a d6 from either costs 5 points and an inch of running costs the same as an inch of flight.

Which is why HERO has the edge when it comes to superhero campaign.

Admittedly, I haven't looked at Hero in much depth, and it was for a pulp game so neither of the above was relevant, but this is something I'd assume was rectified in a supers supplement.

Champions rated stuff in roughly 5-point increments. The power list is too long to get into the details, but in general, over the years, stuff has been playtested, so some powers may use 10 pt per increment, and others may give more than usual for a 5-point increment.

But the basic starting point is +1" of movement is 5 points, +1d6 of normal damage is 5 pt, +1 point of Strength is 5 points.

Then, there are advantages and disadvantages that modify powers. As well as frameworks. Overall HERO system is quite elegant and more than good enough to represent heroes from the level of the Batman to Superman. Sure Superman is a lot of points but unlike GURPS it far more managable.

The downside of the flat scale is that you can quickly move out of the normal human range. But they tweaked this in Hero 4e and it is much better up to the present. Mainly by fleshing out what you can do as a normal human so 200 points doesn't always mean you are a highly capable human not a superhero.

Despite the fix, GURPS does normal range humans better. And despite GURPS 4e fix, Hero System does superpowers better.

 

[David Johansen]

One thing I think both GURPS and HERO fail at is recognizing that there's a level of technology that's essentially free. You can grab a helmet or AK-47 for pretty much zero points by taking one from someone. 3rd edition supers allowed you to build powered armor on top of an existing suit of armour but that actually creates more problems as it's not balanced against having a straight up power that does the same thing and it doesn't balance out against attacks. Even so there should be a flat cost for a base attack and defense power that reflects the inherent nature of the ability and then a scaling cost after that. Otherwise you wind up with Heroes Unlimited where attack powers are seldom as good as automatic weapons.

 

[robertsconley]

One thing I think both GURPS and HERO fail at is recognizing that there's a level of technology that's essentially free. You can grab a helmet or AK-47 for pretty much zero points by taking one from someone.

Champions has recognized that from the beginning.

3rd edition supers allowed you to build powered armor on top of an existing suit of armour but that actually creates more problems as it's not balanced against having a straight up power that does the same thing and it doesn't balance out against attacks. Even so there should be a flat cost for a base attack and defense power that reflects the inherent nature of the ability and then a scaling cost after that. Otherwise you wind up with Heroes Unlimited where attack powers are seldom as good as automatic weapons.

The fix for this is to focus on the effect rather than the form of the power. In Champions 1d6, normal damage could be anything cold, fire, acid, etc. If you wanted your freezing ice blast to do more because, logically, freezing also immobilizes as well as damages, then you had to pay additional points to get that effect.

For example in 5e you would

Freezing Ice Blast (48 pts): Energy Blast 8d6 (40 pts); Entangle 2d6 , 2 DEF (20 active pts); Linked (-1/2), Vulnerable (Fire/Heat) (-1) (8 pts*);
* 20 active pts / 2.5 (1 + 1/2 + 1) = 8 pts.

You add in the link disadvantage because you can't use Entangle independently of the Energy blast (and vice versa), so it is a limitation. Plus, because it is an ice power, logically, the Entangle effect is more vulnerable to heat or fire.

Alternatively, You could use the Drain power on a target's speed, but with Entangle, the power creates something that can be ripped off or damaged to release the immobilized victim. So it is a better fit.


As for your example, building powered armor on top of an existing suit is not a problem because we know the cost of the existing suit and layer on the additional powered effects on top of that.

GURPS 4e finally shifted to an effect-based system for powers, but it is not presented or organized as nicely as Hero System. Or playtested as well.

 

[Silverlion]

Champions has recognized that from the beginning.




The fix for this is to focus on the effect rather than the form of the power. In Champions 1d6, normal damage could be anything cold, fire, acid, etc. If you wanted your freezing ice blast to do more because, logically, freezing also immobilizes as well as damages, then you had to pay additional points to get that effect.

For example in 5e you would

Freezing Ice Blast (48 pts): Energy Blast 8d6 (40 pts); Entangle 2d6 , 2 DEF (20 active pts); Linked (-1/2), Vulnerable (Fire/Heat) (-1) (8 pts*);
* 20 active pts / 2.5 (1 + 1/2 + 1) = 8 pts.

And that is when my eyes glazed over, your honor! (I prefer the plain English system of H&S and MSH.)
Where you don't have to say it's vulnerable to heat because its ICE.

 

[robertsconley]

And that is when my eyes glazed over, your honor! (I prefer the plain English system of H&S and MSH.)
Where you don't have to say it's vulnerable to heat because its ICE.

They are more straightforward to use, but I don't find them as flexible.

 

[Kage2020]

Or playtested as well.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find that hard to believe. I can imagine that perhaps certain genre/builds got more attention, partially because of the whole "low powered GURPS / high powered HERO" self-fulfilling prophecy, but GURPS playtests even for the simplest of things can be... brutal (?). (Question mark because I've only got limited experience of them.)

Again, though, I'm not saying you're wrong.

The one thing that does seem to be true with GURPS is that, as the points values go up, the equity of builds seems to diverge such that for an equitable character you might be dealing with large variations in character point values. This is more observation of people tinkering around with such builds rather than direct experience as I tend to prefer the lower points ranges anyway.

No idea if there is anything comparable with HERO. That same self-fulfilling prophecy means that I've never spent more than a handful of minutes look at HERO because I associate it with superhero games, and of those I have almost zero interest. (Which is kinda silly, but there you have it.)

* * *

Also, seconding the notion of EABAv2. It's a great and tight little system, with only two things that I had a beef for: (1) scaling beyond "norms" seemed non-intuitive to me; and (2) the power system is more art than system.

 

[robertsconley]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find that hard to believe. I can imagine that perhaps certain genre/builds got more attention, partially because of the whole "low powered GURPS / high powered HERO" self-fulfilling prophecy, but GURPS playtests even for the simplest of things can be... brutal (?). (Question mark because I've only got limited experience of them.)

Sure and GURPS Powers is probably as better than it would been under another company. The difference is that Champions has been worked on for 15 years prior to GURPS 4e. And Champions hobbyists are just as brutal as GURPS hobbyists are.

If GURPS Superpowers had the same degree of continuity, then I would see your point. But it didn't and flip-flopped through several designs before settling on the effect-based setup in 4e.

The one thing that does seem to be true with GURPS is that, as the points values go up, the equity of builds seems to diverge such that for an equitable character you might be dealing with large variations in character point values. This is more observation of people tinkering around with such builds rather than direct experience as I tend to prefer the lower points ranges anyway.

No idea if there is anything comparable with HERO. That same self-fulfilling prophecy means that I've never spent more than a handful of minutes look at HERO because I associate it with superhero games, and of those I have almost zero interest. (Which is kinda silly, but there you have it.)

Well, Champions 1e and 2e was laser-focused on superheroics, and, to be fair, Superheroes and Supervillains beating the shit out of each other. So that got wrung out early compared to GURPS, which dealt with normal human-level combat first (Man to Man).

However GURPS always gave a lot of weight to the roleplaying side of things. It wasn't athe combat oriented RPG, early Champions.

Then, in 3e, it branched out into being the Hero System, which had issues dealing with normal human-level stuff because it was still pretty combat-oriented.

This was fixed in Hero System 4e mainly by fleshing out and refining the non-combat side of things. And then honed even more in 5e. To me, 6e is just shuffling the deck chairs that 5e setup but it will work just as well.

A negative point for Hero is that it deals with more stats than GURPS does. So that may be a turn off. Sure GURPS has the secondary attributes but you can easily ignore them by leaving them at their default values.

Hero System is a crunchy system. I switched to Fantasy Hero 1e from AD&D 1e back in the mid 80s but ultimately switched to GURPS 2e when it came out. But whatever the flaws the two had back then they have been effectively dealt with in their latest editions.

 

[Kage2020]

Sure and GURPS Powers is probably as better than it would been under another company. The difference is that Champions has been worked on for 15 years prior to GURPS 4e. And Champions hobbyists are just as brutal as GURPS hobbyists are.

Oh, that makes a bunch of sense when put that way. It's easy to forget about the timelines involved. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[pawsplay]

One thing I think both GURPS and HERO fail at is recognizing that there's a level of technology that's essentially free. You can grab a helmet or AK-47 for pretty much zero points by taking one from someone. 3rd edition supers allowed you to build powered armor on top of an existing suit of armour but that actually creates more problems as it's not balanced against having a straight up power that does the same thing and it doesn't balance out against attacks. Even so there should be a flat cost for a base attack and defense power that reflects the inherent nature of the ability and then a scaling cost after that. Otherwise you wind up with Heroes Unlimited where attack powers are seldom as good as automatic weapons.

HERO has dealt extensively and explicitly with technology versus powers since 4e, at least; the main distinction between Heroic and Superheroic genre games is how they handle gear. In fact, in HERO (Champions), you can't grab a helmet or AK-47 for zero points. You could conceivably grab one from a foe, but Always Steals a Gun Man is a pretty limited concept for a hero, and you end up having to pay for weapon familiarities and stuff your peers don't. Plus, there's no guarantee you'll have ammo, or that a helmet will fit you, or that it's in good shape after you blew up its owner. If you want the gear, in a superheroic game, you pay basically the same points for the same capabilities as your cyborg and mutant friends. "Real weapons" also have defined capabilities which just won't cut it above a certain level.

GURPS still allows you to build super equipment onto mundane equipment. It's not "free," though, because you still have to shell out cash for the underlying device, and your gadget discount on your powers will reflect the durability of the final device. There is kind of a spot in the "street level supers" range where using guns versus using a fire projection power is a bit less costly in points, even taking into account realistic limitations. GURPS lets you have normal equipment like cars and cell phones, and HERO system kind of keeps that stuff in the background if it's not adventuring gear. GURPS doesn't balance the cost of guns, point-wise, as strictly to damage as does HERO, but it's not that case that is anything is free, or there are no limitations. The only real "freebie" in GURPS is that any mundane equipment built into a Gadget does inherit its durability.

 

[Kage2020]

GURPS doesn't balance the cost of guns, point-wise, as strictly to damage as does HERO, but it's not that case that is anything is free, or there are no limitations. The only real "freebie" in GURPS is that any mundane equipment built into a Gadget does inherit its durability.

I think that there's an upcoming supplement that will square the equipment/point cost circle. Something based on a Pyramid article about psychotronic/metatronic generators...

 

[Skarg]

Personally, I like things to be consistent and relatable and make sense to me.

And comic book super-heroes don't make enough sense to me.

So I greatly PREFER the GURPS approach, as I LOVE that if you try to model a comic-book super-hero (or even a high-powered action movie) in GURPS, without using a lot of cinematic optional rules, GURPS will naturally show you the countless things about those genres, that don't make sense, and/or that would actually tend to happen rather differently. I tend to love that.

It would take a lot for me to modify my tastes/interests/thinking to understand what all the differences would need to be to make GURPS play just like a comic book or a silly action movie. Mainly, it seems to me, it involves lots and lots of ignoring reality/physics/time/space/consequences/ammo/wounds/logic etc.

 

[Silverlion]

They are more straightforward to use, but I don't find them as flexible.

I can do anything you do with Hero, in H&S or MSH. Promise.

 

[James Gillen]

HERO has dealt extensively and explicitly with technology versus powers since 4e, at least; the main distinction between Heroic and Superheroic genre games is how they handle gear. In fact, in HERO (Champions), you can't grab a helmet or AK-47 for zero points. You could conceivably grab one from a foe, but Always Steals a Gun Man is a pretty limited concept for a hero,

Unless you're John McClain.

JG

 

[AsenRG]

Unless you're John McClain.

JG

Well, he ain't the most unlimited character I can think of...