Why D&D?

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Faylar said:
I think it all boils down to... we all wear shirts, but we don't all wear cardigans
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Speak for yourself sir! Given my prior comment about pants I daresay you can picture my state of dress as I type this.
 
OH, I'm wearing shoes, I'm not a maniac you know?

So, anyhow, what would it take for an rpg to supplant D&D? I think one might be able to argue that Warhammer, Magic The Gathering, and Settlers of Catan all managed to do so in the wider hobby game space, becoming markets in their own right. I mean by all rights it should have been greater mechanical depths, physics equations, and social mechanics that did it.

I'm thinking you'd need a new hit property as the old ones have already failed to supplant D&D. The game would have to be very accessible and yet challenging, possibly completely free of reading and counting, and it would need to be really widely appealing. I'm afraid much of D&D's appeal has always been the transgressive nature of the material whether it be brazen strumpets, watery tarts, or murdering monsters for fun and profit. And even now, you can't really escape the last one. It's a violent game at its very heart. Part of the appeal has always come from being on the fringe and a little bit unacceptable. I'm not sure a roleplaying game of winsome cowgirls, horses, and fathers that don't approve (my wife's favorite genre though it extends to movies like the recent Herbie and Bumblebee) would really grab anyone. Though, judging by the breadth of associated media, I suspect it's more popular than D&D. But supposing revisionist westerns becomes the next big thing and WotC releases a new edition of Boot Hill might it be able to supplant D&D?
 
David Johansen said:
So, anyhow, what would it take for an rpg to supplant D&D?
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I think we've already seen what it would take - for WoTC to screw up an edition royally, and for someone else to, well, essentially offer D&D.

The problem with Pathfinder is that it offered a version of D&D without universal appeal. Take a repeat of history and give people a version of D&D that's newbie-friendly but offers all the options to satisfy the grognards and them builds up enough customer goodwill so that WoTC never recovers, and I think well have a new king of the castle.
 
David Johansen said:
OH, I'm wearing shoes, I'm not a maniac you know?

So, anyhow, what would it take for an rpg to supplant D&D? I think one might be able to argue that Warhammer, Magic The Gathering, and Settlers of Catan all managed to do so in the wider hobby game space, becoming markets in their own right. I mean by all rights it should have been greater mechanical depths, physics equations, and social mechanics that did it.

I'm thinking you'd need a new hit property as the old ones have already failed to supplant D&D. The game would have to be very accessible and yet challenging, possibly completely free of reading and counting, and it would need to be really widely appealing. I'm afraid much of D&D's appeal has always been the transgressive nature of the material whether it be brazen strumpets, watery tarts, or murdering monsters for fun and profit. And even now, you can't really escape the last one. It's a violent game at its very heart. Part of the appeal has always come from being on the fringe and a little bit unacceptable. I'm not sure a roleplaying game of winsome cowgirls, horses, and fathers that don't approve (my wife's favorite genre though it extends to movies like the recent Herbie and Bumblebee) would really grab anyone. Though, judging by the breadth of associated media, I suspect it's more popular than D&D. But supposing revisionist westerns becomes the next big thing and WotC releases a new edition of Boot Hill might it be able to supplant D&D?
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What kind of lunatic wears shoes in their own home?

I don't think that WH and Catan have completely cornered their respective markets. WH is definitely a juggernaut though.
Not knowing enough about Catan to comment further on it, I would say the other three you mentioned all have one thing going for them... They organize as leagues.
The RPGA did amazing things for 3.0 as o the Magic tournaments and the WH leagues. They drive interest and maintain it through a dedicated base. Others get drawn in. If anything else came along with the same ability, it would also do well.
 
I think we've seen the opportunity twice, once when TSR died and once when WotC released 4th edition. In both cases D&D was back on top again in a couple years. The brand is durable. I've always thought other companies missed a real opportunity to grow their market share.

I'm not sure a version of D&D would be the right answer. A good, newbie focused series of GURPS books at the right time, maybe. Dungeon Fantasy is too complex for the role.
 
David Johansen said:
I think we've seen the opportunity twice, once when TSR died and once when WotC released 4th edition. In both cases D&D was back on top again in a couple years. The brand is durable. I've always thought other companies missed a real opportunity to grow their market share.

I'm not sure a version of D&D would be the right answer. A good, newbie focused series of GURPS books at the right time, maybe. Dungeon Fantasy is too complex for the role.
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I guess what I am getting at is that you need people playing it first. Most RPGs are fairly obscure. D&D is accessible, many play, there are countless youtube channels on it, they are at conventions, they sponsor local games in game stores, etc... other games simply don't have that level of access.
GURPS could do it, but I think they would need to rebrand to something that sounds less like a Waynesworld character and more (blech) edgy... and then put truckloads of money into forums and advertising.

Edit: having a buzz is also helpfull. the amazing GURPShas something no other game has (Insert buzzword here) something controversial to get people buzzing over it.
 
David Johansen said:
OH, I'm wearing shoes, I'm not a maniac you know?

So, anyhow, what would it take for an rpg to supplant D&D? I think one might be able to argue that Warhammer, Magic The Gathering, and Settlers of Catan all managed to do so in the wider hobby game space, becoming markets in their own right. I mean by all rights it should have been greater mechanical depths, physics equations, and social mechanics that did it.
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IMHO, this is an interesting point... I recall have an argument with a friend in the late 90s about Windows vs Mac. He was adamant that Apple could never unseat Microsoft because Microsoft's position was too deeply entrenched. What neither of us predicted is that cloud, mobile devices and the whole tech services ecosystem would become a thing and that arguing over desktop operating systems was completely moot. Apple DID overtake Microsoft, but not because of their OS.

Is D&D going to be unseated by another RPG. Probably not. But will they lose market share to card games, board games, computer games.... or something else in the hobby that doesn't even exist yet? Maybe... I have no idea what that might, but it's exciting to consider.
 
EmperorNorton said:
To be honest, I don't run D&D anymore, but I definitely understand the attraction...

Also I wish any system other than D&D would ever get the popularity to have as many prebuilt modules made for it. Even if I don't use the modules whole cloth they are so easy to pull from.
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There are definitely other RPG properties with enough behind them to provide more than enough material. Traveller, RuneQuest, and Call of Cthulhu immediately come to mind.

I have a long history of reusing modules in other systems. I've run D&D modules in Cold Iron and RuneQuest and probably even other systems.

But the availability of ready to run content certainly is part of D&D's popularity in a self supporting cycle since the popularity begets more content.
 
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What‘s the age distribution of D&D players nowadays? I think that’s relevant since if the user base is basically early-mid teens, who then gradually drop out, that tells you who’d need to be targeted to take on D&D head-head. It also might suggest where to find a less-exploited niche.
 
Arminius said:
What‘s the age distribution of D&D players nowadays? I think that’s relevant since if the user base is basically early-mid teens, who then gradually drop out, that tells you who’d need to be targeted to take on D&D head-head. It also might suggest where to find a less-exploited niche.
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From my experience and what I have read it is pretty firmly Millenials and Gen z
 
D&D 5E seems to have a decent-sized fan base amongst Millenials (and the Gen Z teens), given the age of the crowd who rabidly attend weekly Game Shops, Comic Cons, RPG Cons, Critical Role Live, etc

Lots of D&D stuff aimed at them, like Death Saves clothing merchandise, D&D Beyond apps etc
Yes anyone can use them, but the Millenials just eat all that stuff up

However I'm not sure how many make the jump to other rpgs beyond D&D 5E - I expect some do, but its more of an Gen X thing (or perhaps the older Millinials)
(No actual evidence here, I'm just spitballin' and throwing it out into the fray! :grin:)
 
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Faylar said:
Not sure. Before I visited forums I always thought I wanted a system like Fate. Then I heard about it, sought it out, and realized... I really didn't like what i saw. I couldn't see myself playing a game of it, and if I was at a game where it did one thing and then switched systems to do other things with other people independently I wouldn't like that either. Shadowrun 2-3 did that a lot and it was actually one of the things that detracted from the game imo.

I think it all boils down to... we all wear shirts, but we don't all wear cardigans
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I never had a problem mix-matching 1st Person and 3rd Person, we used to do that all the time in our old games (RQ2/3, RM, MERP, GURPS, D&D 3E, WoD, SR, HARP, etc). The only game we didnt do it was in TSR D&D (BECMI and AD&D), but I put that down to our age, and how the DM was running it, not anything else.

It wasn't until I got into forums a few years ago that I realised it wasn't as common a practice that I had assumed.
It's how we currently play Fate Core, but its also how we currently play Mythras, CoC, RQG, D&D 5E, HARP, etc
 
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I wonder when the Millenials got their first taste, though.
 
I wonder how old some of you think Millennials are. I'm a Millennial and I've been playing tabletop RPGs for like 30 years. I mean, I know I started young, but honestly the person I know who has probably spent the most on D&D Beyond stuff is actually even older than me so.
 
Aren't Millenials born after 1980? This would put the oldest millenials at 40 this year.
 
EmperorNorton said:
I wonder how old some of you think Millennials are. I'm a Millennial and I've been playing tabletop RPGs for like 30 years. I mean, I know I started young, but honestly the person I know who has probably spent the most on D&D Beyond stuff is actually even older than me so.
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I guess there are no consistent exact dates for this, it's a pretty loose definition.
It is generally accepted that Millienials were born in the 1980s and 1990s, thus come 'of adult age' in the 2000s

Initially referred to as 'Gen Y', but they stole the pre-existing media moniker of 'Millienials' from those youngsters were being born in the 2000s - hence why that Generation are now being temporarily referred to as 'Gen Z', until they claim a new name for their own

So the Millienals are in their 20s and 30s now, with the most ancient ones hitting 40yrs old this year :thumbsup:

And yeah, D&D Beyond doesn't discriminate - I'm a Gen X-er and have been using D&D Beyond and singing it's praises; it's very handy to have all that info in my smart phone at the gaming table. Although many of my gamer friends probably would just prefer the printed books to reference at the gaming table, whereas my kids (Gen Z early teens) are more than happy to refer to rules via an app, it's not even a novelty for them.
 
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TristramEvans said:
Yeah, it was all about this Wizard named Lando Calrissian, and he has to fly this ship called the Babylon 5 to Narnia to destroy a ring before the evil hobbits of Hogwarts take over all the lands of Pern with their space dragons.
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TristramEvans said:
Eh, you're not missing much. It was fun until they revealed Teela of Grayskull is actually the 9th Cyclon, and the Jedi abandoned Deep Space 9 so they could harvest moonrocks with clones of the Beverly Hillbillies.
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Still written better than Season 8. :thumbsup: You too deserve a Star Wars Trilogy.
 
TristramEvans said:
1986.
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Yeah, I've never seen a date this late, I've always been in the Millennial age range very time I've looked and I was born before 86.

I don't know, it just strikes me as weird people saying people my age like those apps and stuff when... honestly I couldn't care less. Hell, I was resistant to playing online for that matter until it became almost a necessity because of my work schedule and friends moving all over the place.
 
TJS said:
I just did a quick search. I'm not sure there's any official definition but most sources I could find were putting the borderline at 1980.
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People have been trying to push it backwards for years - I don't know if this is out of a desire of Gen X to distance itself from Millenials or vice-versa. The term (which had been used throughout the 20th century to refer to disaffected youth) first appeared in it's current use in an article in a Vancouver magazine by Douglas Coupland, for the generation born between 1966 and 1985 (Coupland is rumoured to have taken the title from Billy Idol's 70s punk band, but he denied that), which is the standard still used by the Dept of Statistics.

I'm a bit more loose even then that. I say that if you can remember a time that The Simpsons weren't on TV, you're Gen X, otherwise you're a Millenial (or, y'know, really old)
 
I just looked up the date the US was founded - 1776. So if each "generation" of Americans covers a 20 year period, 66 - 86 represents the tenth ('X') generation of Americans.
 
TJS said:
Of course that doesn't hold any significance for the rest of us!
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Actually, that makes me curious, is the term Gen X used outside of Western cultures specifically influenced by North American culture?
 
TristramEvans said:
Actually, that makes me curious, is the term Gen X used outside of Western cultures specifically influenced by North American culture?
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I only heard the phrases "Gen X" and "Millennial" for the first time in 2018. It's not used here or in France, Spain, etc except as a recent Americanism.
 
TristramEvans said:
In the US, it was plastered all over MTV in the 90s
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Most countries have their own splits based around internal events, e.g. post-Francist in Spain for those born in the wake of the regime change back to the monarchy. In France it's fairly coarse grained where a large chunk 1950-1990 will just be called "post-war".
 
Arminius said:
I wonder when the Millenials got their first taste, though.
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I missed being a Millenial by 1 year and I am turning 41. My wife, ex wife, and half the people I hang out with are Millenials. I would say that they got into when we did. :tongue:
 
Séadna said:
Yeah that's a funny one. None of the others are being adopted into common usage. I've my own ideas as to why but it's hard to be sure.
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Because they aren't relevant to the non-Americanian world is most likely.
 
They are though. the Silent generation, the lost generation, the Baby Boomers or (Me Generation), etc...

All generations have a name. Gen Xwas adopted as it is because it sounds good enough on it's own. Basically, a generation in this sense is a definitive cohort of people born within certain times that will all grow up and share similar formative experiences. This can change the length of a generation, but usually doesn't. The World wars, for example, did alter the length of the Lost and Silent generations, If I recal right, mostly due to the rapid changes happening worldwide.
 
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