The Last Moderation Discussion thread of 2023

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We aren't in any danger on not being able to discuss orc antagonists. If it were just about RPG play and design there would be no issues at all, but in this instance the wider world seems to creep in despite everyone's best intentions. I don't think we want any version of what happens at TBP here so I support measured discussion and response with the clear objectives of the health and well being of the forum and it's whole community as the prime mover.
 
Discussing a game's setting, or prep for a given session of a game, and within that context, discussing the antagonists, seems to be just fine.

Everyone pulling out their soapboxes and talking about how the game is being ruined by anyone with a different concept of who the antagonists can be is going to rankle a lot of people.

  1. "My next session is going to have a bunch of gnarly orcs raiding a village for food and slaves, can y'all help me make the orcs really scary and unique" vs.
  2. "Orcs are uncivilized savages and should always be an evil race, and anyone who disagrees is ruining my hobby!" / "Orcs are a thinly veiled stand in for indigenous peoples and should never be an evil race, and anyone who disagrees is ruining my hobby!"

Those are two very different discussions.

And the struggle is, I can start a discussion with the first example, and end up being flooded by folks with versions of the second example.

And there are still plenty of places online where throwing out a statement like the second example is just fine. So some gentle moderation here to keep this place focused on discussions like the 1st example isn't going to end anyone's ability to find the strain of discussion in which they'd like to engage.

If we, as a community, want to be able to discuss any topic, the more we avoid writing things that match the second example, the better.

All of the above is just my opinion, not intended in any way to change anyone's mind. I offer it up for the administrator and moderators so they know where I stand (which isn't worth a hill of beans in this world, let alone on this site, I say with 0% ill will or snark).
 
Um... if I'm keeping it real a few posters went over the nono line quite hamfistedly so I can't really agree that it's just outside forces - we're all individuals so I advise not summon things outside our control to explain choices made. Still most posters who took a shot at the subject were lighthearted and careful, and I think it's still on topic, but on the other hand I 100% understand pausing/closing.

I'll take my part of responsability for adressing the gameability point after there were political comments made instead of letting the whole orc tangent die.

I'll add I wouldnt want the D&Done thread be mod+ed. 1)it's super active so mods are going to have a lot of work 2)we need to be able to say "fuck WOTC" so I'd rather the problematic topic just be banned there. Maybe opening a special mod+ orc thread? Could turn sour so idk.
 
Urdlen's best boy said:
Um... if I'm keeping it real a few posters went over the nono line quite hamfistedly so I can't really agree that it's just outside forces - we're all individuals so I advise not summon things outside our control to explain choices made. Still most posters who took a shot at the subject were lighthearted and careful, and I think it's still on topic, but on the other hand I 100% understand pausing/closing.
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I think you misunderstand. Saying that "the wider world creeps in" isn't to suggest that the wider world somehow has agency. Obviously it's the actions of posters on the forum. However it's not that useful to point fingers and apportion blame either. We aren't summoning forces, we're being polite and somewhat non-confrontational.
 
Fenris-77 said:
I think you misunderstand. Saying that "the wider world creeps in" isn't to suggest that the wider world somehow has agency. Obviously it's the actions of posters on the forum. However it's not that useful to point fingers and apportion blame either. We aren't summoning forces, we're being polite and somewhat non-confrontational.
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Oh sorry then. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Fenris-77 said:
We aren't in any danger on not being able to discuss orc antagonists. If it were just about RPG play and design there would be no issues at all, but in this instance the wider world seems to creep in despite everyone's best intentions. I don't think we want any version of what happens at TBP here so I support measured discussion and response with the clear objectives of the health and well being of the forum and it's whole community as the prime mover.
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But I think a big reason forums like that and others too now got that way, is because arguments that most people regarded as kind of silly, like threads fretting over the moral implications of treatment of fictional races in fantasy like orcs, were not getting enough push back and the moderation policies were supporting the people taking the position itself. Maybe having the discussion just naturally leads there, but I also think it is pretty obvious how terrible the argument is, and where it has led for the hobby. Here it isn't the norm, so maybe it just doesn't register in the same way. But elsewhere its pretty much destroyed any real conversation about RPGs, and it has totally changed how things like D&D are designed (and I would argue for the worse)
 
Well, it's led some portion of the hobby I suppose. The whole shooting match hasn't gone to purple though, despite what the internet seems like some days.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Well, it's led some portion of the hobby I suppose. The whole shooting match hasn't gone to purple though, despite what the internet seems like some days.
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The big purple and EnWorld are both pretty thoroughly impacted by it IMO. D&D itself is pretty much beholden to the argument at this point. I agree there are plenty of other RPGs, plenty of other forums. But "Evil orcs are racist"* has become the mainstream view I think (or at the very least it is approaching 50%)

*To be clear here, using this phrase a stand-in for a range of politicized arguments about fantasy RPGs having to do with orcs, dem human modifiers, perceiving European style colonialism in the very concept of dungeon delving and exploration, etc.
 
BedrockBrendan said:
The big purple and EnWorld are both pretty thoroughly impacted by it IMO. D&D itself is pretty much beholden to the argument at this point. I agree there are plenty of other RPGs, plenty of other forums. But "Evil orcs are racist"* has become the mainstream view I think (or at the very least it is approaching 50%)

*To be clear here, using this phrase a stand-in for a range of politicized arguments about fantasy RPGs having to do with orcs, dem human modifiers, perceiving European style colonialism in the very concept of dungeon delving and exploration, etc.
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I wouldn't confuse the internet with the wider hobby. Most role players don't shout on forums about anything and a lot of younger hobbyists simply don't use forums at all. That's not to say this isn't an issue, it is, but the politics side of it doesn't have a home on the Pub, which is IMO right and proper.
 
Fenris-77 said:
I wouldn't confuse the internet with the wider hobby. Most role players don't shout on forums about anything and a lot of younger hobbyists simply don't use forums at all. That's not to say this isn't an issue, it is, but the politics side of it doesn't have a home on the Pub, which is IMO right and proper.
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That is true. I do find at the actual table the attitude hasn't really shifted a lot. I think the trouble is though that the chief influences on the hobby's direction are on online platforms (and just being someone who likes online conversation about games I find it frustrating that the dial has moved so far in this direction)
 
BedrockBrendan said:
That is true. I do find at the actual table the attitude hasn't really shifted a lot. I think the trouble is though that the chief influences on the hobby's direction are on online platforms (and just being someone who likes online conversation about games I find it frustrating that the dial has moved so far in this direction)
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Boardgame Geek is just as bad as the mentioned RPG forums, I never thought I’d see politics poison boardgames but it is everywhere these day.
 
Fenris-77 said:
I wouldn't confuse the internet with the wider hobby. Most role players don't shout on forums about anything and a lot of younger hobbyists simply don't use forums at all. That's not to say this isn't an issue, it is, but the politics side of it doesn't have a home on the Pub, which is IMO right and proper.
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Yeah, I run two groups and the issue has never arisen. Including from the 19 year old player, although boy does he love his fucking Tiktoks about horny bards.

I suspect that the main groups of people who get really animated about much of this stuff are either a) certain designers/publishers using it for "support my side" marketing and/or b) people whose engagment with RPGs is almost entirely confined to posting on forums and social media rather than gaming.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Yeah, I run two groups and the issue has never arisen. Including from the 19 year old player, although boy does he love his fucking Tiktoks about horny bards.

I suspect that the main groups of people who get really animated about much of this stuff are either a) certain designers/publishers using it for "support my side" marketing and/or b) people whose engagment with RPGs is almost entirely confined to posting on forums and social media rather than gaming.
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That’s the most frustrating thing, many of the people ruining it aren’t even playing the games!
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
I suspect that the main groups of people who get really animated about much of this stuff are either a) certain designers/publishers using it for "support my side" marketing and/or b) people whose engagment with RPGs is almost entirely confined to posting on forums and social media rather than gaming.
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While I am sure people who fall into A would get animated, I think any publisher who feels the effect of the online discourse around this (which is going to be anyone who is trying to market online and who has to work with other people in the industry who all may have opinions on the topic), is going to if not be animated, have strong feelings about it. On B, I don't think this is what is going on. Yes, there are people who are strictly online conversationalists about RPGs and who don't actually play (and we can probably safely ignore those peoples opinions when they emerge) but I have had lots of conversations with people on all sides of this discussion online and they all seem fully capable of invoking at table examples and appear to be posters who regularly post about their own gaming.

I do agree at the table it isn't really a big concern (I haven't encountered it with anyone I game with, and when I have, the fact that people are talking in person, leads to a much more civil exchange)
 
Well, I for one am certainly relieved we moved the "discussion" about how others' viewpoints have ruined D&D to this thread!

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For a minute, I thought the locked OneD&D thread might lead to a pause in old folks shouting and clouds!

Maybe the mods should open a soapbox thread where everyone with strong opinions about badwrongfun, how these kids are all ruining our hobby and back-in-my-day statements can be aired out, and we can all marvel at the stone cold brilliance of those posting such lofty ideals, and rain down upon them the accolades and plaudits they so richly deserve!


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The OneD&D thread is re-open for business.

There will be a Mod+ thread for the gaming aspects of the tangent, but it will take a bit to sift through, edit, and compose an OP (with some very strict rules). In the meantime, just don't try to restart the tangent in the OneD&D thread.
 
for newer Pubbers, I'll just point out that we are a bit more "relaxed" on the one rule in discussions about moderation, as long as it's related specifically to a meta-conversation about the site rules and moderation practices. Just keep that in mind.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Yeah, I run two groups and the issue has never arisen. Including from the 19 year old player, although boy does he love his fucking Tiktoks about horny bards.

I suspect that the main groups of people who get really animated about much of this stuff are either a) certain designers/publishers using it for "support my side" marketing and/or b) people whose engagment with RPGs is almost entirely confined to posting on forums and social media rather than gaming.
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A few years back, there was a thread on TBP about the propriety of killing sentient, sapient beings in D&D simply because they had been designated as "innately evil". There was a great deal of hand-wringing about Gygaxian Paladins and "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players and philosophical dilemmas involving lone mind flayers sitting peacefully on a hillside watching the sunset.

And as it turned out, nobody in the thread was actually experiencing the problems the thread sought to solve. None of the DMs were having to deal with "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players. None of the players were involved with games featuring monoculturally evil orcs where such genocide would be theoretically justified. Nobody's games involved thorny moral quandaries involving serene, isolated illithids. The whole thread was a solution in search of a problem.
 
I missed all this, but the problem is the same as it always was. For some people, their political and social beliefs aren’t political or social (meaning you realize not everyone shares your opinion). For them it’s closer to Fundamentalist Religious Dogma (cue a Dothraki handmaiden saying “It is known”.)

To accept that fantasy races are stand ins for real human cultures, has been, and always will be, a political stance.
The idea that they are not is about as political as declaring John M. Ford Klingons better than STTNG Klingons.

Believe it or not, it’s quite OK to say, “No, that’s politics, take it elsewhere” and be done with it.
 
Afterburner said:
A few years back, there was a thread on TBP about the propriety of killing sentient, sapient beings in D&D simply because they had been designated as "innately evil". There was a great deal of hand-wringing about Gygaxian Paladins and "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players and philosophical dilemmas involving lone mind flayers sitting peacefully on a hillside watching the sunset.

And as it turned out, nobody in the thread was actually experiencing the problems the thread sought to solve. None of the DMs were having to deal with "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players. None of the players were involved with games featuring monoculturally evil orcs where such genocide would be theoretically justified. Nobody's games involved thorny moral quandaries involving serene, isolated illithids. The whole thread was a solution in search of a problem.
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It’s Shibboleth spouting and virtue signaling that is presenting as concern trolling. “The problem with the OSR.” and all other such made up facts that declare your tribe are all useless horseshit.
 
Afterburner said:
A few years back, there was a thread on TBP about the propriety of killing sentient, sapient beings in D&D simply because they had been designated as "innately evil". There was a great deal of hand-wringing about Gygaxian Paladins and "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players and philosophical dilemmas involving lone mind flayers sitting peacefully on a hillside watching the sunset.

And as it turned out, nobody in the thread was actually experiencing the problems the thread sought to solve. None of the DMs were having to deal with "orc genocide fuck yeah!" players. None of the players were involved with games featuring monoculturally evil orcs where such genocide would be theoretically justified. Nobody's games involved thorny moral quandaries involving serene, isolated illithids. The whole thread was a solution in search of a problem.
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Like many other issues it would be massively improved if people could tell us what always-evil-races/not-always-evil races could tell us what that brings to their table and worry less about other people's tables.
 
CRKrueger said:
I missed all this, but the problem is the same as it always was. For some people, their political and social beliefs aren’t political or social (meaning you realize not everyone shares your opinion). For them it’s closer to Fundamentalist Religious Dogma (cue a Dothraki handmaiden saying “It is known”.)

To accept that fantasy races are stand ins for real human cultures, has been, and always will be, a political stance.
The idea that they are not is about as political as declaring John M. Ford Klingons better than STTNG Klingons.

Believe it or not, it’s quite OK to say, “No, that’s politics, take it elsewhere” and be done with it.
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I'm guessing this is a general point? I don't think it really reflects the thread.

Most of the thread was about much more design focused issues like "are stat modifiers the best way of representing different races or does removing them give more character options".

A few people came close to or over the line but that wasn't the main thrust of the discussion (and reallly wasn't confined to any one "side" of the argument).

It's why we're stripping out the political stuff and restarting the design stuff in a mod+ thread. It's because it's mostly stuff to be salvaged with a handful of things to bin, not vice versa.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Like many other issues it would be massively improved if people could tell us what always-evil-races/not-always-evil races could tell us what that brings to their table and worry less about other people's tables.
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I think the thing is people fixate on one thing and avoid others, not sure why. Have Broo been rehabilitated in Golrantha yet or do they still procreate by rape?
 
sharps54 said:
I think the thing is people fixate on one thing and avoid others, not sure why. Have Broo been rehabilitated in Golrantha yet or do they still procreate by rape?
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Broo still procreate by rape I bellieve, although I'm a Gloranthahead. Most online discourse about Runequest seems to be "ducks: cool or fool?"
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Broo still procreate by rape I bellieve, although I'm a Gloranthahead. Most online discourse about Runequest seems to be "ducks: cool or fool?"
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Sure, which is silly because ducks are cool. But people want to rant about orcs being an evil race and how bad that is but Broo aren’t any better and they get ignored. That tells me it isn’t about evil races it is about going after certain fandoms.
 
sharps54 said:
Sure, which is silly because ducks are cool. But people want to rant about orcs being an evil race and how bad that is but Broo aren’t any better and they get ignored. That tells me it isn’t about evil races it is about going after certain fandoms.
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Occam's Razor. Very few people are aware of Glorathan deep lore in the first place, whereas D&D is culturally prominent.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Occam's Razor. Very few people are aware of Glorathan deep lore in the first place, whereas D&D is culturally prominent.
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I don’t buy that for the detractors on the other forums. I just don’t think they want to target Chaosium and Runequest. I realize I’m sounding like a conspiracy nut, enough to make me question myself, but the mods and loud voices on the other forums aren’t ignorant of RPGs outside of D&D.
 
Fenris-77 said:
We aren't in any danger on not being able to discuss orc antagonists.
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My recent post saying that I find "orcs as misunderstood savages" to be obnoxiously milquetoast was deleted without so much as a notification. Is a mild comment like that too controversial and contentious for The Pub?

At least give me the courtesy of a notification. I spent a fair amount of time and thought on that post; deleting it like trash was insulting.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Occam's Razor. Very few people are aware of Glorathan deep lore in the first place, whereas D&D is culturally prominent.
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I also think that people trading in "Strong Opinion Currency" online go where the money is, more often than not. Especially when they are not actually otherwise involved in the hobby...
 
Brock Savage said:
My recent post saying that I find "orcs as misunderstood savages" to be obnoxiously milquetoast was deleted without so much as a notification. Is a mild comment like that really too controversial and contentious for old men on the Internet to view without getting upset?

At least give me the courtesy of a notification. I spent a fair amount of time and thought on that post; deleting it like trash was insulting.
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It's not that your post has been deleted; that entire topic has been spun off backstage while we put an new mod+ thread together on the topic. So everyone's posts on the topic have been temporarily moved out of view while we sort through everything.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
It's not that your post has been deleted; that entire topic has been spun off backstage while we put an new mod+ thread together on the topic. So everyone's posts on the topic have been temporarily moved out of view while we sort through everything.
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Thank you for the explanation. It feels like passive-aggressive censure when one of my posts gets removed without notice simply because it was part of a discussion where people got overstimulated and attacked each other. This sort of thing has happened to me a few times here so I hope you can appreciate my position. A brief DM from the Mods to the effect of "heads up, this was part of a conversation that blew up and we're sorting this out" would go a long way.
 
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