How badly has D&D been mismanaged?

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lategamer

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Referring to this article where Ed Power argues that D&D shouldn't be monetised more: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2024/may/03/dungeons-and-dragons-wizards-of-the-coast

I actually disagree.

I think D&D should have been monetised more. Why is it foundering behind Harry Potter in media? Why is it less popular than Star Wars?

I don't even think the Hasbro/WotC OGL kerfuffle was a big deal (Pinkertons aside). People have to pay 25% of their income? Heh. I pay 30% to DTRPG for the platform and then I pay a further 29% to Free League for publishing stuff under their community programme. I don't begrudge it....I like their stuff. The idea that someone might eventually get a salary paid out of those 29%s is a good thing for me.

But D&D has been mismanaged as a brand property for decades. We should have had movies of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. We should have had so much more rather than the bland crap we did get.

I don't even *like* D7D but damn, it's easy to see how the opportunity has been wasted.
 
Maybe, it has definitely been mismanaged. Is it realistic to expect to monetize a table top game like you would a video game or movie franchise? Should there be lowered expectations for the earning potential of a tabletop game franchise?

I’m not an idealist that thinks games should be free or shouldn’t be monetized and made into brands if the market supports it but is the expectation even realistic?
 
It’s not just a TTRPG though. It’s fifty years of IP. It’s been in the hearts of millions. We wouldn’t monetise it the same way as a video game or movie but damn, if Marvel can monetise comics to an unending cash factory then D&Ds owners should have managed it.

It won’t affect me. I don’t play it. But it’s still wasted. The shareholders should be up in arms.
 
lategamer said:
It’s not just a TTRPG though. It’s fifty years of IP. It’s been in the hearts of millions. We wouldn’t monetise it the same way as a video game or movie but damn, if Marvel can monetise comics to an unending cash factory then D&Ds owners should have managed it.

It won’t affect me. I don’t play it. But it’s still wasted. The shareholders should be up in arms.
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The problem comes down to "What is an RPG." You can monetize comic books and their characters because they're a discreet thing that a comic company owns, and can put it on T-shirts, toys, etc.

An RPG has no identity. D&D has more than most, but even then it's not got the name recognition of Spider-Man. A single character or group of characters has a strong identity. A game where you can create any characters and they're yours? It is just not as focused. They've made board games, and T-shirts, and toys. But it doesn't have that strong a pull compared to Marvel or DC, or other hot properties. Because it just doesn't have anything so unique as to make it more impactful on the market. Drizzt is probably one of the more saleable parts of D&D, and even then it just isn't going to reach the scale of those other properties because he isn't easily explained or able to be shared with the populace.
 
I think the problem with D&D is that there's too little of what it's about that is really unique to D&D.

You don't need D&D to be D&D* and it may in many cases actually be a hindrance.

*In the sense of being recognisable to D&D fans.
 
5e isn't my favorite edition, but the 5e core books probably outsold all prior edition core books. This probably has more to do with nerd culture being more mainstream now than it being a good ruleset.

Outside of the actual game, the one area which they clearly appear to fail is with the d&dragons movies. They could have done Dragonlance or one of the Drrrrrzzzzzzt stories instead of whatever they put out. Seems like it would have been a slam dunk with the baked in fan base, but they just ignored it.

I'm guessing it probably has to do with royalties to the creators, but there is always a way to negotiate some sort of package that could have been reasonable to all parties.
 
Neon said:
They could have done Dragonlance or one of the Drrrrrzzzzzzt stories instead of whatever they put out. Seems like it would have been a slam dunk with the baked in fan base, but they just ignored it.
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Not even Drizzt. But the whole Raistlin thing. Man, when I was a teen, every edgelord I knew wanted to be Raistlin.


Neon said:
I'm guessing it probably has to do with royalties to the creators, but there is always a way to negotiate some sort of package that could have been reasonable to all parties.
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Plainly they didn’t want to so we end up with meh.

I’m saying this as an outsider. To have so much mindshare and be piddling around trying to regain rep. Damn, they’ve wasted it.
 
lategamer said:
Not even Drizzt. But the whole Raistlin thing. Man, when I was a teen, every edgelord I knew wanted to be Raistlin.




Plainly they didn’t want to so we end up with meh.

I’m saying this as an outsider. To have so much mindshare and be piddling around trying to regain rep. Damn, they’ve wasted it.
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As a fan of d&d (tsr era) and rpgs in general, there definitely seems like there were tons of wasted opportunities. At least creatively. But... again. I don't think there has ever been an edition as financially successful as 5e. I'm also including the royalties wotc got just from product licensing.

Some people will argue that financial success isn't an indicator of creative success, but in order to be financially successful people, in droves, need to see value in your product and decide to spend their hard earned money on it.

As an analogy, I find most pop music on the radio bland and the musicians to be hacks with limited talent. But hey, Taylor Swift and Beyonce sell tons of music and concert tickets. Are the masses being duped into liking crap because they don't know any better or am I just a snobby & picky bitch who has niche tastes and thinks I know better. Subjective. Depends from which side its being assessed.

So yeah... the idea that d&d is mismanaged is complicated, but I totally understand OP feelings.
 
Neon said:
. Are the masses being duped into liking crap because they don't know any better or am I just a snobby & picky bitch who has niche tastes and thinks I know better. Subjective. Depends from which side its being assessed.
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And the answer is yes.
They’re wrong and you’re wrong. Or they’re right and you’re right. Or something.

Neon said:
So yeah... the idea that d&d is mismanaged is complicated, but I totally understand OP feelings.
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I don’t even mean “hmmm they messed up with previous editions of D&D.” Which seems to be the tack with “5e is selling better than earlier editions”

I mean the mismanagement of the whole piece. I thought TSR were doing an awful job. Then WotC held their beer.

If there are people identifying as Hufflepucks or Gruffalo, why aren’t there the same things with D&D content. Because it was mismanaged. Is Potter better than D&D? I doubt it. But the lack of imagination in the biggest bully on campus is starting.

In 2024, their innovation will be “D&D by subscription”? That’s it?
 
lategamer said:
And the answer is yes.
They’re wrong and you’re wrong. Or they’re right and you’re right. Or something.



I don’t even mean “hmmm they messed up with previous editions of D&D.” Which seems to be the tack with “5e is selling better than earlier editions”

I mean the mismanagement of the whole piece. I thought TSR were doing an awful job. Then WotC held their beer.

If there are people identifying as Hufflepucks or Gruffalo, why aren’t there the same things with D&D content. Because it was mismanaged. Is Potter better than D&D? I doubt it. But the lack of imagination in the biggest bully on campus is starting.

In 2024, their innovation will be “D&D by subscription”? That’s it?
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I have no idea what a hufflepuck or gruffalo are, but I know what Potter is.

With regards to d&d being better than HP, I think it's a difficult comparison to make.

Harry Potter is passive entertainment (books and movies) and d&d is active entertainment. Passive entertainment always wins in terms of numbers. For example, how many people watch football vs the number who play? This applies to most sports. Same with music. How many people listen to music vs those who play or create new music? Is Fender mismanaged because their sales figures and participation are abysmal compared to record sales?

Rpgs will always be niche because they require a lot of effort to run. Same goes for rules lite or narrative systems.

D&d aside, I believe we're living in the golden age of rpgs. How well are all other rpg product lines performing? Great!... compared to years ago... but poorly compared to anything mainstream.
 
Neon said:
With regards to d&d being better than HP, I think it's a difficult comparison to make.

Harry Potter is passive entertainment (books and movies) and d&d is active entertainment. Passive entertainment always wins in terms of numbers. For example, how many people watch football vs the number who play? This applies to most sports. Same with music. How many people listen to music vs those who play or create new music? Is Fender mismanaged because their sales figures and participation are abysmal compared to record sales?
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Yeah, that was one of the main points of the Guardian article. Personally, I don’t doubt that D&D could have been monetized more successfully, but that ultimately it would never have anything like the reach of things like the Potterverse, Marvel, Star Wars, etc.
 
lategamer said:
Referring to this article where Ed Power argues that D&D shouldn't be monetised more: https://www.theguardian.com/games/2024/may/03/dungeons-and-dragons-wizards-of-the-coast

I actually disagree.

I think D&D should have been monetised more. Why is it foundering behind Harry Potter in media? Why is it less popular than Star Wars?
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Because Harry Potter and Star Wars were specific stories that caught the popular imagination while D&D was and remains a toolkit for people who want to pretend to be characters having adventures in a fun and interesting way.

Now it just so happens there is considerable overlap between the type of prep you do for a novel and a D&D campaign. There is no reason why a company couldn't use the prep work for D&D to come up with a series of compelling novels as a separate but important product link. Like the TSR Novel Division in the 80s and 90s. And if one or more of those novels happen to catch the popular imagination, then there is the opportunity to become a multi-media empire.

However, what one has to do to make a roleplaying game an ongoing profitable concern is very different than what one has to do to make a multi-media brand an ongoing profitable concern. The nature of RPG campaigns, means a company has a lot less control over the customer's experience with RPG products compared to managing novels, shows, and films.



lategamer said:
I don't even think the Hasbro/WotC OGL kerfuffle was a big deal (Pinkertons aside). People have to pay 25% of their income? Heh. I pay 30% to DTRPG for the platform and then I pay a further 29% to Free League for publishing stuff under their community programme. I don't begrudge it....I like their stuff. The idea that someone might eventually get a salary paid out of those 29%s is a good thing for me.
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It is about creative freedom, not about freedom from having to pay for beer. In addition, the 30% to DTRPG is not the same type of fee as the 29% paid to Free League. People pay 30% to DTRPG for the convenience of their centralized location for selling digital and print products. The 29% paid to Free League is for the right to use their intellectual property.
If an author decides to go in a creative direction that DTRPG supports then they will lose access to their storefront. While logistically it will hurt a lot, the author still can sell their IP elsewhere. However, in contrast, if an author decides to go in a creative direction that Free League doesn't like, then without that license, they are dead in the water and can't sell their IP anywhere unless they strip it of Free League content and find any other way to implement their creative ideas.

In contrast with the OGL, CC-BY, and ORC, the company that released the open content doesn't have a say in the creative direction of how it will be subsequently used. Most disputes over creative direction are not about whatever the politics of the day are. Rather, they are bout things like the nature of the product, like a competing core rulebook, how the product is presented, creative disputes on how a system should evolve, etc.


lategamer said:
But D&D has been mismanaged as a brand property for decades. We should have had movies of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. We should have had so much more rather than the bland crap we did get.
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Yes Wizards has inherited a lot of interesting IP from TSR that were successful for both RPGs and novels. The problem was the fact that the sales volume and profits of Magic the Gathering was two orders more magnitude than anything D&D could muster until the last five years. And two elements that caused D&D to boom were people looking for things to do during the pandemic and folks like Critical Role figuring out how to make playing RPGs entertaining in their own right.

lategamer said:
I don't even *like* D7D but damn, it's easy to see how the opportunity has been wasted.
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No it like SJGames with Munchkins and GURPS but on larger scale. Every minute that SJ Games spends on Munchkin returns far more value, i.e., revenue, than a minute spent on GURPS. For a long time MtG and D&D had the same relationship in Wizards. Until external factors expanded the popularity of D&D to the point where spending time on D&D was worthwhile.

So all this started about five years ago around 2019. Given that it take time to see a trend happening. Did Wizards foul up the last three years? My answer is yes considering that was more than enough time to exploit the 50th anniversary of D&D and comb through the rest of the IP and to get various projects started like a Dragonlance Movie/Series.
 
robertsconley said:
Did Wizards foul up the last three years? My answer is yes considering that was more than enough time to exploit the 50th anniversary of D&D and comb through the rest of the IP and to get various projects started like a Dragonlance Movie/Series.
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Nicely put. The other point about profit/investment is *fine* but diversification is also good. The MTG thing would be assumed not to be endless.

Neon said:
Harry Potter is passive entertainment (books and movies) and d&d is active entertainment.
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Well, I’d say the RPG of D&D certainly is “active”

But the IP. The books, movies and other entertainment. That’s passive.

The IP for Potter moved into active entertainment. That WotC fumbled it, just proves my point.
 
D&D could easily have been a cartoon again that expanded the audience. There was a whole generation of Star wars fans that grew up on the cartoons more than the movies.

Having just been to Universal Studios and seen the Harry Potter world, super Mario world, Jurassic Park land, secret life of pets land, the Mummy ride and wait for it coming soon Fast and the Furious ride there is definitely room for something like D&D. A D&D rollercoaster with all the iconic monsters attacking could be great.
If you haven't been to an amusement park something that has changed from my childhood is how much the line waiting areas engage in the IP and add to the ride and setting fun. We actually lamented just a bit the lines were so short that we didn't get to really look at some of the details in the line area.

Barbie has proven that there is room to take toys and move them much more into the mainstream if you do it right. The D&D movie was a step in the right direction.

Most of WotCs mismanagement I lay at their aim to control vs expand. Just worry about expanding guys
 
Bunch said:
D&D could easily have been a cartoon again that expanded the audience. There was a whole generation of Star wars fans that grew up on the cartoons more than the movies.
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That’s what I mean. The D&D cartoon was well received. And it didn’t even have the richness of the various backgrounds made for D&D.

Bunch said:
Most of WotCs mismanagement I lay at their aim to control vs expand. Just worry about expanding guys
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Squarely smacked that nail on the head there.
 
Reading this thread makes me think that perhaps they should be monetising the Forgotten Realms, and Planescape and Dark Sun and so forth.

And then, whatever is particularly successful can have more RPG material made for it.

But I lack the motivation necessary to put any real energy into thinking about the problem, so I'm probably completely missing the point.
 
Yeah, I think there's been a number of outright blunders. From the outset let's note that Warhammer is the number one fantasy miniatures battle game. Think about that for a moment. Yeah, that could have and should have been D&D but they never took that space seriously. They've also been late to the table and behind in content quality for dungeon crawler board games and everyone else stole their thunder.

To my mind, D&D should have a dirt cheap one book and some dice point of entry that's a hair simpler than basic using ascending AC and stat based saving throws instead of charts, but probably offering a few more character options for the modern audience who just aren't as in love with Hobbits as we were in the early eighties and yes, more effective and survivable first level characters. D&D should also have a big fat box of miniatures and scenery box, probably with the same rulebook in it.

After core comptences and yes there's a point in focusing on them there's other media.

In the nineties D&D novels were a big thing, that's slowed to a trickle and yet Warcraft and Warhammer novels are crowding the shelves. The production of movies and TV shows has been bad but that's an expensive and difficult venue. If I was doing D&D movies or TV I'd try to focus on writing and acting. The budget for special effects for a modern blockbuster is huge and dare I say out of reach. But if the writing and acting is bad, the special effects don't matter. I'd rather have a good low budget D&D web series which has time to develop plots and characters than a catestrophicly bad movie. The recent movie was okay. I didn't hate it. The fat dragon was funny. Even so, I think it could have been a lot better.
 
Re: success

D&D is the only rpg I've seen advertised on the Associated Press website and the only one that I know has shown up by name in significantly popular movies & TV series.

Everyone knows Taco Bell, few know the local Mexican place down the street that's similar price buy way way better food and nicer people. Guess which one sees more traffic?
 
D&D movie rights had been licensed by TSR and WOTC didn't get everything settled until right before they started production on the D&D movie. They could not have come out with one sooner. I have no idea if the deal affected TV or properties associated with D&D like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance. I get the impression they kept expecting to get the rights settled in a few months for ~15 years so they might have been waiting to do D&D first. I think they own FR outright but I'm pretty sure DL is more complicated so that's a strike against it (sharing the take cuts into the profit margin).

They have been monetizing the brand some in board games, which makes sense as they are a game/toy company. Books/movies/computer games relies on other parties having their shit together. Larian had their shit together. The movie was good but performed only ok. They've had a few movie based books but I'm not sure why they haven't done more; maybe they are still looking for the next Salvatore.

I agree that a cartoon should be a no brainer. There are already at least a dozen anime that are basically D&D and dungeon exploration. They could just to adapt that format.
 
Someone said they haven’t locked down the IP ownership for Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms.

Mismanaged to the Nth degree.
 
Unlike Harry Potter, Star Wars or whatever, D&D is personal. With other media franchises, the company who produces it tells you what it consists of. With D&D, much of the action occurs in the players' imagination. The experience is going to vary from table to table, and person to person. The players decide, largely in their own heads, what D&D is and what it consists of. What it looks like, what it sounds like. Because the only concrete and universal (well, kind of) part of D&D is the rules. Beyond that, it's all largely subjective. Which makes it impossible to build the kind of cohesion and commonality that creates and motivates a large, unified fan base.

Besides, D&D was better when it was more "underground." Every attempt to bring D&D to a wider audience has made it objectively worse.
 
If I wanted to do it right, I'd go for creating a webseries based on a classic adventure, like Keep of the Borderlands:angel:.

And you all know you'd have watched it if it followed the adventures of a party dealing with the module::honkhonk:!


Best of all, it would have taken, like, zero actual effort. But WotC are too dumb and/or too out of touch with gamers to see something obvious.
 
D&D for me has always been about the characters and worlds that my fellow players/DMs and I created and explored. I've read the occasional Dragonlance novel and played some of the video games, but overall I'm just not that invested in the Raistlins, Drizzts, and Waterdeeps of D&D.
 
AsenRG said:
Best of all, it would have taken, like, zero actual effort. But WotC are too dumb and/or too out of touch with gamers to see something obvious.
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Since Hasbro has been involved, it feels there has been a glass ceiling, where game designers don't seem able to get into upper management. I think this was a core factor in the OGL debacle.
 
Imagine for a moment WotC developed Dark Sun into a flagship IP. It gets a medium-budget action film, a new series of novels with a mildly retconned continuity, a Dark Horse comic books series, and a trilogy of AAA video games. Let's imagine a couple of characters develop breakout popularity, and become recognizable and iconic.

What would that mean for the D&D game? Now you have suits sitting on top of a massive property. At that point, the property's roots as a niche tabletop game are almost more of an encumbrance than value. But due to the popularity of the IP as a whole, Dark Sun gets a revival for the latest edition of D&D. So, people are hired to develop it. But wait, there's something about it the suits don't like. Nevermind that they don't really understand what D&D is. The next thing you know, there's a new Dark Sun boxed set, which is great, and it has some features which tie it into.. a cooperative board game, and a new miniatures line. The minis line isn't based on any existing scale, because the suits wanted bigger features with more detail, that could be made cheaply in China. So now you have 34mm Dark Sun collectible miniatures, a boardgame, and a new Dark Sun campaign setting, which has been completely rewritten to support the movie franchise, and has weird game-y elements not previously present in other 5e products. Most hardcore 5e fans find the boxed set actually lacking in the material you need to run a campaign, and mostly depart the fanbase. To support the remaining, mostly newer fans, WotC starts producing a line of glossy, high production value modules. They do well for a while, and then once profitability starts to drop off, they kill the game line. Dark Sun is now once again a ghost ship.

Meanwhile, due to its momentarily popularity, Dark Sun has captured the imagination of hundreds of thousands of 10 to 14 year olds who are probably really too young for the gritty setting. Animated Netflix series, people! Funko Pops. Kids birthday stickers.

To me, this sounds like a nightmare, and also the natural result of treating D&D elements as a franchise first. 5E was successful because it was a carefully crafted tabletop product. Do not expect the same results when IP management becomes the focus of the house, and the strategy is being developed by wealthy toy executives looking to squeeze profit out of it. "I don't like D&D, but it seems like it should be more profitable" is exactly the line of thinking that motivates corporate executives.

D&D always needs to be in the hands of people who love D&D, and want it to continue being D&D, or it dies.

Who remembers when corporate executives decided alternative music should be mainstream? The apparent contradiction didn't bother them at all. And lots of people loved the music. They loved it to death.
 
I don't have an answer, but I have some questions:

1) why some of the old settings are not open on dmsguild to develop on?

2) is it sure that the so-called 'products schedule glacial pace' is the right formula to maximize income?

3) why third-party products support on dndbeyond seems to be randomly picked and case-by-case managed, instead of having a standard agreement open to all suppliers?

4) why other Hasbro IPs like Power Rangers and so on were not given to Wotc to be 5e-adapted and were instead given elsewhere to have their ttrpgs developed?

5) why Avalon Hill IP like Hero Quest was not 5e-adapted?

6) why was the dmsguild Adept program abandoned?
 
CaoCao said:
I don't have an answer, but I have some questions:

1) why some of the old settings are not open on dmsguild to develop on?
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Marketing strategy, and lack of editorial resources to manage the "official" versions.
CaoCao said:
2) is it sure that the so-called 'products schedule glacial pace' is the right formula to maximize income?
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Who knows?

CaoCao said:
3) why third-party products support on dndbeyond seems to be randomly picked and case-by-case managed, instead of having a standard agreement open to all suppliers?
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Because they don't have a coherent plan. There are people trying to make it work, and sometimes they work out a deal everyone can agree on.

CaoCao said:
4) why other Hasbro IPs like Power Rangers and so on were not given to Wotc to be 5e-adapted and were instead given elsewhere to have their ttrpgs developed?
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Because WotC doesn't understand D&D. They don't know what an RPG is, and consequently, don't understand what a design house is. To them, these are "brands," and what does a 25 year D&D veteran know about Power Rangers? They need a Power Rangers guy.

CaoCao said:
5) why Avalon Hill IP like Hero Quest was not 5e-adapted?
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See #1 above. It's very rare for a big corporation to take a property, hand it to someone smart, and say, "Go nuts with this."

CaoCao said:
6) why was the dmsguild Adept program abandoned?
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The adepts abandoned it. DM's Guild has never been a great money-maker for creators, and anyone who has had moderate success, whether as an adept or not, has either moved on, or realized they could make a lot more money as a third-party creator. Crowning someone an "adept" without making them a staffer is pretty much just telling everyone to go ahead and poach this person for your own projects, or telling the adept they have enough clout to run a Kickstarter of their own now.

DM's Guild is great if you specifically want to play with WotC's settings. It is not, never has been, and never will be, a vehicle for earning a living. It's principally an organ to harness fan interest to produce product at little no cost (to them), and to distract would-be competitors by luring talented writers in with the promise of potential network benefits with the other fans, which will generally not materialize. You will find it difficult to build your own brand, since you don't get a category on DM's Guild, and unless you have a runaway hit, your search results will fall off the front page as soon as your product saturates. There is very little long tail, and there is little opportunity to put your name in front of people. And I am saying this as someone who has had a fairly successful product, and who does have some long tail on sales for it. I am not a big name, at all, and I can tell you right now that if you want to make some pizza money, third-party is a much better bet than DM's Guild. There are people who say otherwise, but see if you can find any of them that have the sales numbers to prove it.

Dm's Guild is basically like when Nintendo used to market leagues and clubs for people who were great Nintendo players. It is not a serious commercial endeavor. Not even as a side-hustle.
 
CaoCao said:
pawsplay pawsplay I have more than 80 products on dmsguild and 40+ of them are bestsellers. I literally gained thousands of dollars with them (few thousands).

But nevermind, mine were just rhethorical questions and some of your points are valid and agreeable on.
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With the trade off that you can't use anything from those works anywhere else and if they pulled the plug today you'd have no recourse. As long as creators are tracking on the limitations I agree DMs Guild and the like aren't inherently bad things, they are just contracts one is entering.
 
CaoCao said:
pawsplay pawsplay I have more than 80 products on dmsguild and 40+ of them are bestsellers. I literally gained thousands of dollars with them (few thousands).

But nevermind, mine were just rhethorical questions and some of your points are valid and agreeable on.
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So if you added up all the time you sunk into making 80+ products, and had instead used that time to work a ride-sharing service, how much money would you have made? How does that compare to cashiering in retail?
 
I don't think D&D as a brand needs movies because a fair few movies that have nothing to do with it have ended up doing a better job. Dragonslayer, to me, is one of these. Ironically, anything that's made for D&D, such as the cartoon series, seems so far removed from actual D&D that even your average straight to video sword and sandals fantasy movie makes a better stab at it :grin:
 
Jerry_B said:
I don't think D&D as a brand needs movies because a fair few movies that have nothing to do with it have ended up doing a better job. Dragonslayer, to me, is one of these. Ironically, anything that's made for D&D, such as the cartoon series, seems so far removed from actual D&D that even your average straight to video sword and sandals fantasy movie makes a better stab at it :grin:
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That’s kind of the point though, if D&D was managed correctly you’d be thinking about D&D movies not Dragonslayer.
 
Gringnr said:
Besides, D&D was better when it was more "underground." Every attempt to bring D&D to a wider audience has made it objectively worse.
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I don’t think your use of objectively vibes with my use. I think the “better when it was underground” idea to be hilarious.

pawsplay said:
So if you added up all the time you sunk into making 80+ products, and had instead used that time to work a ride-sharing service, how much money would you have made? How does that compare to cashiering in retail?
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How much fun is it writing books for money. Heaps.

How much fun is it working a Bolt car or serving the public in retail.
None.

Plus. With books on sale I wake up every day for new money in the account. I don’t have anywhere near 80 product and my audience is tiny but dang, with 80 I wouldn’t need to work at anything else at all. Just mining my imagination rather than justifying the poor decisions of politicians with my pen.


pawsplay said:
Imagine for a moment WotC developed Dark Sun into a flagship IP. It gets a medium-budget action film, a new series of novels with a mildly retconned continuity, a Dark Horse comic books series, and a trilogy of AAA video games. Let's imagine a couple of characters develop breakout popularity, and become recognizable and iconic.
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Ok. Fairly apocalyptic scenario.

pawsplay said:
What would that mean for the D&D game?
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Well. What has the complete obscurity of Dark Sun done for the game?

pawsplay said:
Now you have suits sitting on top of a massive property. At that point, the property's roots as a niche tabletop game are almost more of an encumbrance than value. But due to the popularity of the IP as a whole, Dark Sun gets a revival for the latest edition of D&D. So, people are hired to develop it. But wait, there's something about it the suits don't like. Nevermind that they don't really understand what D&D is.
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As long as it’s making money, the suits are happy.

Who wouldn’t want a Dark Sun movie? Why is every decent movie or TV series out there related to comics or video games. Dang. I thought that the people who made this stuff were writers.

None of this changes my mind (no-one is surprised, I’m the OP). I find the whole “this is better when no-one knows about it” or “meh. Suits” to be a little naive. You know what happens when a product stays underground? You’re living it. What happens when a product is managed by incompetents? You’re living it.

Ironically I’ll close with a quote from Walt Disney.

”We don't make movies to make money. We make money to make more movies."

 
This is spot on, IMO.
Silverlion said:
An RPG has no identity. D&D has more than most, but even then it's not got the name recognition of Spider-Man. A single character or group of characters has a strong identity. A game where you can create any characters and they're yours? It is just not as focused. They've made board games, and T-shirts, and toys.
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DnD has no personality, no identity.
I've been playing for 40 years, and couldn't tell you the difference between realms, and barely identify personalities from them. I acknowledge this is due to my shoddy memory as well, but this is what I have at a moment's notice.
Ravenloft-horror-Strahd
Forgotten Realms-fantasy-?
Greyhawk-fantasy-?
Dragonlance-fantasy-?
Planescape-multiverse fantasy-?
Dark Sun-desert fantasy-?
Al Qadim-Arabian fantasy-?
Spelljammer-space fantasy-?

Sure, I know the personalities mentioned in the thread so far... Elminster, Drizzt, Raistlin, but I couldn't tell you anything about them, including what realm they're from. Strahd is probably the best known, but he's no role model.

Honestly, I can't even remember the characters or the setting for Honor Among Thieves.

I can't think of any marketable property that's not built around characters. That's how you zero in on target demographics that would have an affinity for those characters.

On its own, DnD is just... shapeless.
 
rumble said:
This is spot on, IMO.

DnD has no personality, no identity.
…
On its own, DnD is just... shapeless.
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Again. Mismanaged.

I don’t agree… I just see lots of different worlds IP wasted.

I use the example of the Potter. People are screaming about for a Potter RPG. People want to live there. (Hunger Games not so much).

Marvel has had dozens of different interpretations. They just created a new continuity, stole what they wanted from stories, created new characters where they needed them and made a cash machine.

All this IP. And they can’t even manage it. Missed the anniversary. Alienated fans.
 
rumble said:
Honestly, I can't even remember the characters or the setting for Honor Among Thieves.
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There was Chris Pine. And ….nope. You got me.

(Indicative of mismanagement not of an IP that wasn’t capable)
 
D&D has plenty of identity it is just mismanaged. The monsters alone are goldmines. Beholders, owlbears and mindflayers oh my.
 
Strahd probably isn't a great character to build around - I can't remember a single thing about him other than than being a Dracula ripoff. Didn't he even have the reincarnated lover thing like Dracula?

The core idea of an adventuring party is now pretty mainstream. Honor among Thieves had a decent one - druid girl, barbarian, dorky sorcerer, actually competent paladin. But a good writer could create new characters within the adventuring template and make it iconic. That's what Bill Finger did with Batman - took the mysterious crime solver template that was popular and gave him cool, memorable features.
 
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