Babylon 5 Watch Thread

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Baulderstone

Baulderstone

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I've been reviewing Babylon 5 for the last couple of months with Brendan Davis on his Bedrock Podcast, and I have been meaning to start a thread here to discuss it as well just maximize my opportunity to nerd out about the show.


I've watched the show before, but the last time I did was about 15 years ago when the DVDs came out. I remember broad strokes, but a lot of the details have faded, so a lot of it is fresh to me. Brendan hasn't ever watched it, so he brings the fresh perspective on the podcast.


I'm going to be careful with spoilers, and I ask other people to as well. I want this thread to be something people could read along with as they watch the show. Of course, with the plot arcs and foreshadowing on this show, it is impossible to avoid discussing future events at some points. When I do that, I will use spoiler tags.


I've already watched all of Season One, so I'll probably post a little quicker at first to catch up to where I am on the podcast watch.


I guess I should also explain my controversial approach to watching the show, formed by efforts to convert people to the show. I recommend starting with the prequel movie In the Beginning. Some people insist this is a terrible idea as reveals some background secrets that are held back for a while in the show. That is exactly why I think people should watch it first.


People are often critical of the first season. I think the biggest problem with the first season is that it holds too many secrets back. There is a lot going on during that season that a first-time viewer can’t appreciate. For example, the motivations of the Minbari are completely opaque in the first season and not in a good way. The first season is far more interesting when you are watching to see how things play out rather than watching it to figure out what is even going on. The show still has plenty of other big secrets to reveal.


Anyway, I’ll make my first post with my thoughts on the prequel and the pilot soon.
 
You're right that the motivations of the Minbari are completely opaque in the first season, but this turned to be a good thing for the series in the end.

The motivations of the Minbari were completely changed behind the scenes between the first and second seasons.
Originally, as outlined for the pilot and first season, the Minbari race was dying. However, upon the capture of Jeffrey Sinclair, they learned that his DNA was compatible with the Minbari, and could lead to the continuation and salvation of the Minbari race. The Minbari didn't want the other races to know that their race was reaching a dead end however, and the Minbari Gray Council didn't want the Minbari to learn that mating and merging with humanity could lead to their survival. Eventually, Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn were to mate and have a child... the first of a new Minbari. However, Michael O'Hare (the actor who portrayed Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair), became mentally ill during the filming of the first season, and had to leave the show to undergo psychiatric treatment. This necessitated a complete rewrite for the reason of the Minbari Gray Council ending the Earth-Minbari war. The characters of Captain John Sheridan and Valen were invented, and it was decided that Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair would become Valen.

If you notice, Valen was never mentioned until the second season. The greeting by Ambassador Kosh to "Valen" in the pilot was not originally there... it was added in when TNT re-aired the pilot five years later.
 
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I love me some B5. It's the show that changed how TV sci-fi was presented, marking the switch from episodic to long form story based shows. And yes, the fashions and effects may not have aged well. But like Doctor Who of the 60s and 70s, it's a masterclass in what you can do with performance and script when budgets are tight.
 
To start off, let me say I am not going to be doing a lot of heavy recapping. I just want to share some thoughts and hopefully start a conversation. There are plenty of sites will full plot synopses out there.

In the Beginning

This is a movie about the war that took place 10 years before the beginning of the series, but it opens with a frame story set 20 years after the beginning of the series. An old emperor is telling the story of the war to children with frequent flashbacks to events leading up to and during the war. I like this frame story as it almost cast the entire series as part of the flashback. Getting a small glimpse into the future also lets you see that this show will fulfill its promise as a series where big things actually happen.



We live in an age where serialized TV has become the norm, so it can be hard to appreciate how different Babylon 5 was at the time. The idea of a show with a long-running narrative seemed too good to be true, and I was always skeptical during the early run that it would actually fulfill its promises.

The frame story also holds together what is a necessarily far-flung, somewhat disjointed account of an entire war. We jump from planet to planet and from one set of characters to another, but at least we have a steady narrator to tie it all together.

The story involves Earth, as a cocky new power on the galactic scene, attempting to learn more about the Minbari an old, reclusive alien race and accidentally provoking a war with them they can’t win. We see the war from both sides, and the movie does a good job of setting up the political landscape that the series will begin with. The war haunts a number of characters in the first season, which is one of the reasons I recommend watching this first.

The Gathering

We now come to the pilot. This made a year before the actual series, and it has some clear differences. The alien makeup is different, and the tone feels just a little off. Originally, it even had a different score, although the digital and DVD versions all are rescored to fit with the series. Some characters will be replaced in the first season. Michael O’Hare as Sinclair comes off as particularly stiff. I really like him in the role as the series moves forward, but he is very awkward in places here.

We finally have the Babylon 5 of the title. It is space station in neutral territory for the purpose or resolving disputes peacefully. The plot involves the arrival of a Vorlon ambassador. The Vorlon’s are race old and mysterious enough to be legendary even to the old and mysterious Minbari. An assassination attempt is made on the ambassador setting off a diplomatic crisis and mystery.

There is a lot packed into the pilot. We get a lot of explanation of how the station works. We see the simmering resentments still left over from the Earth-Minbari War. Londo gets one his signature speeches. “We used to make pretty good sharks too.” G’Kar is in full scheming bastard mode. It is almost a little too full. As a two-hour movie, it doesn’t move quite as briskly as an actual episode of the show, but I still enjoy it.

Next time, I will actually be getting to the series proper with “Midnight on the Firing Line”.

Here is podcast link if anyone wants to here Brendan and I talk about it.
 
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Stevethulhu said:
I love me some B5. It's the show that changed how TV sci-fi was presented, marking the switch from episodic to long form story based shows. And yes, the fashions and effects may not have aged well. But like Doctor Who of the 60s and 70s, it's a masterclass in what you can do with performance and script when budgets are tight.
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I've been watching some '70s Doctor Who recently, and I admire both shows for being willing to telling vast stories and not caring if they had the budget to do them perfectly. There are places where you need to meet both shows halfway, but the reward is more than worth it.

I'm finding I am actually enjoying B5 more now than I did back in the day. Part of it might be that if there is one thing that B5 is not, it is cool. Back when the show first aired, I was in my early 20s and still suffered from delusions of coolness. I still loved B5, but I was a little uncomfortable with how uncool it was.

Now I don't give about crap about cool. I can just enjoy the show and not worry about it.
 
Baulderstone said:
I've been watching some '70s Doctor Who recently, and I admire both shows for being willing to telling vast stories and not caring if they had the budget to do them perfectly. There are places where you need to meet both shows halfway, but the reward is more than worth it.

I'm finding I am actually enjoying B5 more now than I did back in the day. Part of it might be that if there is one thing that B5 is not, it is cool. Back when the show first aired, I was in my early 20s and still suffered from delusions of coolness. I still loved B5, but I was a little uncomfortable with how uncool it was.

Now I don't give about crap about cool. I can just enjoy the show and not worry about it.
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Character development. I mean, actual character development! I don't think any of the major characters were the same by the end of the series.

I can't think of any other sci-fi franchise, besides Star Wars, that did that.

Oh, and Baulderstone. I think you're cool. :smile:
 
Looking forward to reading more. Babylon 5 was probably the first SciFi series that I watched and thought "Wow" right from the start. It got better and better for a couple of series, before losing its way slightly, although I still loved it.
More importantly, it stands the test of time in a way that some of its contemparies probably don't.
 
I got into B5 late but did manage to watch nearly the entire series on TNT. I loved it and still have many fond memories.

I also have most of Babylon 5 Wars.
 
soltakss said:
Looking forward to reading more. Babylon 5 was probably the first SciFi series that I watched and thought "Wow" right from the start. It got better and better for a couple of series, before losing its way slightly, although I still loved it.
More importantly, it stands the test of time in a way that some of its contemparies probably don't.
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Visually it hasn't stood up as well as TNG. The model work on that show was movie quality, where B5 was more Commodore Amiga quality. But the writing and the performances on B5 really did make the difference between good and great.
 
Stevethulhu said:
Visually it hasn't stood up as well as TNG. The model work on that show was movie quality, where B5 was more Commodore Amiga quality. But the writing and the performances on B5 really did make the difference between good and great.
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While TNG had a much higher special effects budget, I find Babylon 5 frequently had more interesting special effects. Babylon 5 never let the budget get in the way of giving you a stirring space battle.

I'll have more reviews up here this afternoon. Sorry to get sidetracked this week.
 
Time to get down to reviewing actual episodes of the show...

Midnight on the Firing Line

The conflict between the Narn and the Centauri is mentioned in both the prequel and pilot, but here it forms the central conflict. The Narn seize a Centauri colony. Londo. the Centauri ambassador, has a nephew on the colony, so the conflict is personal for him, adding to the stakes. G'kar, the Narn ambassador uses Londo's nephew as a pawn, revealing a broadcast of him claiming that the Narn were invited, although the broadcast is clearly under duress.

Londo is intent on acting strongly in response, but his government is unwilling to start a war over the matter. He attempts to draw the other governments into supporting a response, hoping to shame his government into respond. G'kar, however, is a step ahead of him, revealing the official Centauri position to the council.

Meanwhile, raiders are attacking ships in the area in a plot that eventually dovetails with the main one. We also learn of Londo's vision that he and Londo will one day kill each other. In the background, a presidential election takes place on Earth with candidate winning on a platform of looking after Earth's needs first and protecting Earth cultures from alien influences.

Whatever people may think of the first season, this is a really strong episode. It's tightly plotted and lays a lot of groundwork for what is to come.

Soul Hunter

An alien in a damaged craft comes through the jump gate near B5 and is rescued. Delenn, the Minbari ambassador, reveals that he is soul hunter, beings that supposedly capture the souls of important people to preserve them. The soul hunters are feared and shunned. While they typically wait until a subject is dying to harvest a soul, this hunter has failed in recovering souls in the past. He is no longer willing to wait to harvest souls. Recognizing that Delenn is secretly a member of the ruling Minbari Grey Council, he sets his sights on obtaining her soul.

It's not as strong as the previous episode, but this is a still a good one. Franklin, the chief doctor, is introduced. Events of the Earth-Minbari War are significant. It also has a couple of tense, well-directed scenes. The grapple sequence where Sinclair recovers the soul hunter's ship shows off the way Star Furies move in realistic way. I also really enjoy the scene where the soul hunter senses the impending death of a grifter running a shell game in Downbelow, the slummy lower decks of B5.

This is an episode that I think works better if you have seen the prequel. The mention of Dukhat carries more weight. I also think that Delenn is more interesting in this episode if the tension comes from knowing the secret she is keeping than it being a mystery to the audience as well.
 
Knowing what happens later on means I have forbidden myself from commenting on any of the episodes.

One of the great things about B5 is that things happen early on that have an effect in later episodes, or even later series.
 
One thing to remember about Babylon 5 was that at the time TV shows with season-long or series-long arcs basically didn't happen. Deep Space 9 was the only other series that approached this take. Nowadays it is very common and Netflix even banks on it, but in the mid-90s most television was episodic so the episodes could be aired in any order.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
One thing to remember about Babylon 5 was that at the time TV shows with season-long or series-long arcs basically didn't happen. Deep Space 9 was the only other series that approached this take. Nowadays it is very common and Netflix even banks on it, but in the mid-90s most television was episodic so the episodes could be aired in any order.
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While I really shows with long form stories, I feel like some shows now have lost the art of a satisfying episode. Each episode is just a piece of larger story rather than a satisfying story by itself. If you aren't bingeing, an episode can feel a little unsatisfying.

Babylon 5 generally did a solid job of making episodes that were good their own but also pushed a larger story forward.

soltakss said:
Knowing what happens later on means I have forbidden myself from commenting on any of the episodes.

One of the great things about B5 is that things happen early on that have an effect in later episodes, or even later series.
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Feel free to comment with spoiler blocks too. Or just lurk vicariously. Whatever entertains you the most.
 
I began my periodical Babylon 5 re-watch. Just finished "The Gathering." It appears that Amazon Video switched out the edits. I could have sworn they used the 1998 TNT edit before with the Christopher Franke soundtrack and Ambassador Kosh addressing "Sinclair" as Valen, but this time Amazon Video fed the original 1993 edit, with the original Stewart Copeland soundtrack and no mention of Valen.
 
I remember first hearing about B5 and seeing photos of it, and being frustrated that I had no way to watch it.
Later on I got to see some of it, and it lived up to my expectations... but I've never seen a complete season.
This might be a fun watch-a-long, an excuse to track it down and finally see it through.
 
Baulderstone said:
While I really shows with long form stories, I feel like some shows now have lost the art of a satisfying episode. Each episode is just a piece of larger story rather than a satisfying story by itself. If you aren't bingeing, an episode can feel a little unsatisfying.
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A large part of why I seldom watch television dramas and don't read mainstream comic books. I don't have large chunks of time to devote to waiting for niggling details to eventually pay off. Too busy with work and two young kids who need my time more.

Books are where it's at for me.
 
So there's this website called go90 which appears to be legit, and is free. And Babylon 5 is available there.
 
I've tried repeatedly to watch Babylon 5, and I can't get through it. I've never understood the raving about the writing; I honestly don't think it's very good. It relies on a lot of cliches, and like Firefly is often just a bit too in love with its own cleverness. It was better than most other SF TV at the time, but that's not a very high bar.
 
daniel_ream said:
I've tried repeatedly to watch Babylon 5, and I can't get through it. I've never understood the raving about the writing; I honestly don't think it's very good. It relies on a lot of cliches, and like Firefly is often just a bit too in love with its own cleverness. It was better than most other SF TV at the time, but that's not a very high bar.
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Did you make it into the second season? Like Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine, the first season of Babylon 5 wasn't that good, but like both, it got much better. The problem though is that unlike TNG and DS9, the first season of Babylon 5 is mandatory viewing to fully understand the future seasons.

As to Babylon 5 being better than the other science-fiction television shows in the '90s, that's true. Science-fiction television shows in the '10s may be better, but to me they're literally unwatchable. I tried to watch Star Trek: Discovery, but just like the vast majority of television shows in this day and age, it was way too graphically violent and gory for me to continue. I've been told that The Expanse is almost as bad.
 
Apparition said:
Did you make it into the second season?
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No. And I don't mean to be dismissive, but there's too much other good media out there for me to burn 10-12 hours just to get to the "good stuff".

just like the vast majority of television shows in this day and age, it was way too graphically violent and gory for me to continue. I've been told that The Expanse is almost as bad.
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Sadly, current TV writers are no more immune to cargo cult thinking than they've ever been. The really good shows are grimdark, therefore grimdark makes a show really good.

There's an extent theory that the primary - possibly only - reason Star Wars was as popular as it was was that it came at a time of national malaise, in a media landscape full of movies about corrupt police, random violent crime and revenge porn. Star Wars was escapist, cheerful fun at a time when people desperately needed that.

Given the current zeitgeist, I have a suspicion we're ripe for that. Guardians of the Galaxy looked like it might be, but it crapped itself pretty badly in the sequel.
 
Just skip the first season and start with the second season. Every season up to the 4th improves over the last. The first season is very weak.
 
Apparition said:
Did you make it into the second season? Like Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine, the first season of Babylon 5 wasn't that good, but like both, it got much better. The problem though is that unlike TNG and DS9, the first season of Babylon 5 is mandatory viewing to fully understand the future seasons.

As to Babylon 5 being better than the other science-fiction television shows in the '90s, that's true. Science-fiction television shows in the '10s may be better, but to me they're literally unwatchable. I tried to watch Star Trek: Discovery, but just like the vast majority of television shows in this day and age, it was way too graphically violent and gory for me to continue. I've been told that The Expanse is almost as bad.
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Look into Killjoys and let me know what you think.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
Just skip the first season and start with the second season. Every season up to the 4th improves over the last. The first season is very weak.
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One thing I will say having now watched in order from 1 to season 5 (Adam and I a few episodes into the 5th season), is it gets so much better starting with season 2. It really gets good season 3-4. However, I felt like a lot of my enjoyment of those later seasons was built on the stuff that came in season 1. I don't know how I would have responded to seasons 2-4 without watching all of season 1. I still quite enjoyed season 1. I found the episodes enjoyable and I liked the way they handled the setting. I just wasn't prepared for how much better it gets.
 
Apparition said:
I tried to watch Star Trek: Discovery, but just like the vast majority of television shows in this day and age, it was way too graphically violent and gory for me to continue. I've been told that The Expanse is almost as bad.
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If Star Trek Discovery was too graphic for you there's no way you'll be able to make it through The Expanse. It isn't Altered Carbon but there is definitely a fair bit of graphic violence and some body horror.
 
Voros said:
If Star Trek Discovery was too graphic for you there's no way you'll be able to make it through The Expanse. It isn't Altered Carbon but there is definitely a fair bit of graphic violence and some body horror.
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Yeah, that's the impression I had gotten. Thanks. It saddens me how much television has become unwatchable the past several years. Thankfully, the DC Comics shows on The CW have been okie for the most part, as has been The Orville and a couple of others. Other than that, the television I watch is mostly stuff from the '70s through the '90s.
 
I mean I agree that watching season 1 enhances the future seasons but if you find it completely unwatchable, it can be skipped.
 
THE best sci fi show on tv.

Far from perfect. Never bettered.

I picked up the movie box set yesterday second hand (three of them anyway, don't have lost tales, gathering or in the beginning).

Game of Thrones wishes it could be this good so it just shows Emilia's tits over and over
 
Belle Sorciere said:
Just skip the first season and start with the second season. Every season up to the 4th improves over the last. The first season is very weak.
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Rookie mistake.

There is a huge amount of setup and backstory that's in the first season. It is a mistake to assume that because it's the first season and, perhaps, because Sinclair leaves, that the first season isn't relevant. It is.
 
Apparition said:
I began my periodical Babylon 5 re-watch. Just finished "The Gathering." It appears that Amazon Video switched out the edits. I could have sworn they used the 1998 TNT edit before with the Christopher Franke soundtrack and Ambassador Kosh addressing "Sinclair" as Valen, but this time Amazon Video fed the original 1993 edit, with the original Stewart Copeland soundtrack and no mention of Valen.
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FUCKING SPOILER!
 
Stevethulhu said:
I'm not sure spoilers count when it's a show going on 25 years old.
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In general, it's a good idea to be way of spoilers in watch threads however old the show. People can often follow along episode by episode.

On the other hand, if someone had a thread looking for RPG adventure ideas in the B5 universe, I'd expect all kinds of spoilery facts could get thrown around.

Granted, this is a failed watch thread as the podcast took up enough of my attention that I let this thread go dormant, and it has morphed into a kind of all-purpose B5 thread for the forum.
 
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