Has anyone tried Over the Edge 3e?

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Wormturn said:
If there's one game that deserves to survive contact with the realms of metaplay, it's Over The Edge. Back in the day when I ran second edition, players made up some fantastically meta characters. It's a feature of a lot of the source material people mentioned above.

To answer the OP, 2nd edition of OtE is probably my favourite rpg ever. But these days my preferences lean towards scene resolution mechanics more than they used to, so I use 3rd Ed and season to taste with whatever of the eleventy-megabillion 2nd ed pdfs work for whatever's going on.

The shiny new book is lovely and shiny too.
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Yep, OTE literally had scenarios based on meta gaming as a premise.
 
I'm sure most of you are aware of On The Edge, a CCG based on OtE? I've seen it said that the guidebook for that game, Surviving On The Edge, is a nice adjunct to the RPG. The cards are still available for stupid cheap, both from Atlas Games directly and on eBay. And I've found that most eBay sellers will accept offers of half what they're asking for sealed boxes of boosters.
Just a heads up, in case anyone wants a cheap trip down memory lane, or wants a new CCG to play. I've also read that there are things that are true in the CCG that aren't true in the RPG, and vice versa. But at least one of the designers of OtE 3e has talked about using the cards from the CCG while working on the RPG.

I'd like to get the scenario book (Welcome to the Island) for 3e, but I'll probably go digital for it. 60 bucks for a 140-odd page hardback is a bit steep for me, and people se to feel that the softback has inferior and hard to read black-and-white renderings of the hardback's full-color art. Digital is color, and fifteen bucks. So, barring a decent used copy of the hardback, that's where I'm headed.
 
Gringnr said:
I'm sure most of you are aware of On The Edge, a CCG based on OtE? I've seen it said that the guidebook for that game, Surviving On The Edge, is a nice adjunct to the RPG. The cards are still available for stupid cheap, both from Atlas Games directly and on eBay. And I've found that most eBay sellers will accept offers of half what they're asking for sealed boxes of boosters.
Just a heads up, in case anyone wants a cheap trip down memory lane, or wants a new CCG to play. I've also read that there are things that are true in the CCG that aren't true in the RPG, and vice versa. But at least one of the designers of OtE 3e has talked about using the cards from the CCG while working on the RPG.
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I thought On the Edge was a solid CCG. The cards also made great tools for the RPG. If the players made an unexpected trip to Sad Mary's, you could pull a few cards to see who was there and extrapolate how they were interacting.
 
Baulderstone said:
I thought On the Edge was a solid CCG. The cards also made great tools for the RPG. If the players made an unexpected trip to Sad Mary's, you could pull a few cards to see who was there and extrapolate how they were interacting.
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Yeah, I've wondered it it would be possible to construct an adventure using contents of a booster pack as your chief inspiration...
 
I've played or run all three editions. I think 3e is solidly the best written. 1e and 2e seemed to present ideas, places, and things that would be cool to interact with. The writing of 3e feels like things are HAPPENING, things are moving, stuff is pushing against other stuff, and people are getting ground up and spat out /right now/.

I'm super happy to be done with 'hit points' and similar systems. The three strikes system works wonderfully for the narrative style.

I... I adore 3e. It is likely my favourite game of the dozen I played in 2019.
 
I gotta admit, when I heard about the simplifications to the (already very lite) mechanics, I was apprehensive. I:m way too dumb for super crunchy games, but I like a system to "matter", if that makes sense. It's not a very clear lime in the sand, I know, it's one of those "I know it when I see it" kind of vague things.

But when I accidentally got the 3rd Edition book after ordering the 2nd, I checked it out, and I gotta say I like it. As far as the streamlining, hell, "Gestalt" combat (one roll determines the entire outcome) was an optional rule in previous editions, so it's not an entirely surprising evolution, or should I say de-evolution?

In any event, I was planning on running OtE 2e with one of my groups, of whom 3 of 5 are millennials, and 4 of 5 are very new to RPGs. I'm almost certainly going to switch to 3e, as it's more modern look and tech will surely be a better fit. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the perpetual 1989 of 2e, but everything about 3e scream "better fit" for this group who I am currently running Mothership for.
 
Reading through it, it's pretty interesting. I liked the 2nd edition, but tbh the rules never "grabbed" me. Not that I thought they were "bad", per se, or poorly designed. They just felt so... adequate. Like, there was nothing that stood out, or made me go, "That's a neat mechanic." Aside from the freeform chargen, I really didn't feel the system was all that innovative. It worked, but it definitely wasn't showy. But I remember thinking back then that you could have used any number of systems to run the setting. It almost felt like playing a "universal" ruleset with an Al Amarja splatbook.

As for the new system, it's obviously not as detailed, though this is mainly going to be felt in combat. The range of results here feels greater. I know 2e wasn't exactly binary, but the good/bad twists seem to be codified a little better here than the "degrees of success in 2e. To me, anyway.

I'm of two minds about it. I'm not sure how I feel about the lightness of combat (though "playing out" good/bad twists could help with that), but overall, the system seems more like it was designed to mesh with the setting than 2e's did. Feels like a more cohesive whole at first blush, at least to me.

2e was lighter than I usually care for. And I felt that, but the setting kept me coming back. 3e is even lighter, but it seems at first glance like it'd be more fun to play and/or tinker with. I may be wrong, but I'm eager to get it to the table, to see.

It's definitely going to take more buy-in from the players, narratively speaking.

Def reserving final judgement until I can run it.
 
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Gringnr said:
Reading through it, it's pretty interesting. I liked the 2nd edition, but tbh the rules never "grabbed" me. Not that I thought they were "bad", per se, or poorly designed. They just felt so... adequate. Like, there was nothing that stood out, or made me go, "That's a neat mechanic." Aside from the freeform chargen, I really didn't feel the system was all that innovative. It worked, but it definitely wasn't showy. But I remember thinking back then that you could have used any number of systems to run the setting. It almost felt like playing a "universal" ruleset with an Al Amarja splatbook.

As for the new system, it's obviously not as detailed, though this is mainly going to be felt in combat. The range of results here feels greater. I know 2e wasn't exactly binary, but the good/bad twists seem to be codified a little better here than the "degrees of success in 2e. To me, anyway.

I'm of two minds about it. I'm not sure how I feel about the lightness of combat (though "playing out" good/bad twists could help with that), but overall, the system seems more like it was designed to mesh with the setting than 2e's did. Feels like a more cohesive whole at first blush, at least to me.

2e was lighter than I usually care for. And I felt that, but the setting kept me coming back. 3e is even lighter, but it seems at first glance like it'd be more fun to play and/or tinker with. I may be wrong, but I'm eager to get it to the table, to see.

It's definitely going to take more buy-in from the players, narratively speaking.

Def reserving final judgement until I can run it.
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The old system was basically Ghostbusters. Even the freeform traits were already trialed in a way in the Ghostbusters game. Over The Edge added a few things here and there, but it was still chosen merely for being the simplest system around at the time. The new system is more protean and original, although the mechanics take an obvious influence from newer games like Fate and Apocalypse World also.
 
Trippy said:
The old system was basically Ghostbusters. Even the freeform traits were already trialed in a way in the Ghostbusters game. Over The Edge added a few things here and there, but it was still chosen merely for being the simplest system around at the time. The new system is more protean and original, although the mechanics take an obvious influence from newer games like Fate and Apocalypse World also.
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You can definitely see the evolution (de-evolution?) from 2e to 3e. But it really does feel like a re-imagining, rather than an update, in terms of both mechanics and setting. Which, I think, works in its favor. Could just be "new game enthusiasm" And, of course, there's always the possibility it'll fall flat at the table (which may or may not be the fault of the game). We'll see.
 
Currently reading both books, section by section, first one, then the other. Will post thoughts when done.
 
I need to get around to buying Welcome to the Island... But I buy 99% of my US RPGs through Noble Knight to keep shipping down, and they only ever stock the B&W version which has had horrible reviews about the readability.
 
Dyson Logos said:
I need to get around to buying Welcome to the Island... But I buy 99% of my US RPGs through Noble Knight to keep shipping down, and they only ever stock the B&W version which has had horrible reviews about the readability.
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The B&W version? As in the older edition?
 
No, the 3e adventure book "Welcome to the Island" is available in colour and B&W. But since the design was done in colour, the B&W one is supposedly muddy and hard to read.
 
Dyson Logos said:
I need to get around to buying Welcome to the Island... But I buy 99% of my US RPGs through Noble Knight to keep shipping down, and they only ever stock the B&W version which has had horrible reviews about the readability.
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I've heard the same. The hardcover is expensive, too (NOTE: not a qualitative judgement, but it's both slimmer and more expensive than the core). But, I have an online coupon for Atlas Games somewhere, so I'll probably buy it.
 
Dyson Logos said:
No, the 3e adventure book "Welcome to the Island" is available in colour and B&W. But since the design was done in colour, the B&W one is supposedly muddy and hard to read.
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I only picked it up as a PDF. Reads ok on that medium though.
 
Sooooo...

I'm of two minds about it. Overall, I like the 3rd edition, but there are areas where it falls a bit short. Let me sum up...


LOOKS:

-2e: A very 90s book, def a product of the zeitgeist of the day. Illustrations are black & white and what passed for "edgy" back then, but seems quaint now (lots of shadows and punk haircuts). Art ranges from good to not very good. Manages to be stylish without falling into the "unreadable graphic arts wankery a la White Wolf" that was so prevalent back then. Dense, three-column layout packs A LOT of info into a very small package. Good value for the money, even today.

-3e: Gorgeous, full-color book. Art is very good on average, though still uneven, and does a great job of portraying the island and its residents. Less "edginess", which is actually a plus here. Despite having another 30 plus pages more than 2e, its double colums, wide margins and many separate sidebars mean it probably has a lower word count. The sidebars are nicely color coded (red for clarification/designers' notes/examples, purple for GM info/advice and black for NPCs), which, along with different colored page borders for each chapter, makes it easy to find what you're looking for in a hurry. Glossary and index have been combined, which I've never seen before, and works for this game.

Bottom line: 2e is more efficient and meaty, 3e is more attractive and easier to navigate


MECHANICS:

-2e: Serviceable, if uninspired aside from character generation, even by the standard of the day. Freeform, trait-based chargen and a D6 dice pool-based resolution mechanic make this an easy one for most people to to learn. There are "degrees of success", but they're suggested and not fully explained. Bonus or Penalty dice (additional dice you can roll only to drop the lowest/highest die) help to temper the odds. It works. It's not bad, it's just kind of "adequate".

-3e: A more dynamic range of results, more narrative focus. "Scene resolution" instead of blow-by-blow combat. This comes at a cost: less granularity, especially in combat, and less predictable results. You can see the DNA of the old chargen and mechanics here. The frequent narrative "twists" seem fun, but also a big ask. Not every GM/group is going to be up to that, and I can see less improvisationally talented gamers struggling to come up with stuff that's not "samey". Still, this feels tailor made for the setting, and not kind of "settled for" or "tacked on", which is how 2e's mechanics always felt to me. YMMV, natch. Characters also have one less "trait", but have dedicated stats (also called Traits) for fighting, persuasion and paranormal stuff (Fight, Sway and Weird). No more dice pool, it's 2d6 vs. a (usually) fixed number, with "twists" when 3's or 4's are rolled. If your character is at an advantage/disadvantage, they can choose/be compelled to re-roll dice, potentially turning defeat into victory, or vice-versa.

Side rant: I did hear a game reviewer say that 3e makes no distinction between a coffee cup and a Gatling gun. This is a bit of a strawman. Insofar as NO weapons have stats, then yeah, this is true (it also bears mentioning that
Al Amarja now bans ALL weapons, not just firearms
). But the core mechanic compares Levels of Traits, and allows for the DM to call for re-rolls in the event of a disadvantage. So, combat is basically, compare combatants' levels (i.e., the level of the appropriate skill), and roll as usual. The number of levels above/below your opponent you are will determine the number of re-rolls, if any, you get, for good or ill. More than 2 levels of difference renders an action automatic/impossible. And the rules do say that while hit points have been replaced by a "three strikes" rule (the severity and recovery time of which can vary but are, as with so much in this edition, left largely up to GM fiat), some stuff (like, say, a Gatling gun) can just flat kill you outright. So, there are at least two ways to adjudicate that vanishingly unlikely scenario, using the rules provided and common sense. Look, if you are running a game where so much of this stuff is to be adjudicated by you, and you are given some very loose benchmarks, and told to adjust for advantage/disadvantage, but when confronted with "coffee cup vs. Gatling gun", you throw up your hands and say, "Welp I guess it's all the same", the problem at that point probably isn't the rules, gnomesayin? /Side rant

Bottom line: 2e works. It's lite, flexible and should cover most of what comes up. 3e is lite to the point of being anemic, but frankly feels more innovative, less predictable, and better suited to the setting. It does, however promise to give less spontaneous players a hard time, and may be too random for some peoples' taste. I'll put it this way - 2e is the predictable, responsible and somewhat boring person you've been dating the last few years. 3e is the sexy side piece, who's exciting, but completely unstable, and though you're pretty sure this is a bad idea, you're probably gonna go there anyway.


SETTING:

-2e: Al Amarja is the sizzle that sells this steak. The island is incredibly well detailed here, with over 70 statted NPCs, and a big-ass, multi-page spreadsheet you can cross-reference to see how each faction regards the others. There are a few maps of areas and buildings, as well as a map of the island and The Edge. You could game for years with the information in this one book alone, and at the risk of repeating myself, it's really an amazing value, even at thirty bucks (still available new from Atlas Games, BTW). A lot of time and effort went into this setting, and it shows. It's a testament to the authors' creativity that a game confined to an island could have a setting more vibrant and complex than many games can manage across multiple splats.

-3e: Beautiful, color maps, details of bus and rail lines. at first glance, this seems like it's going to be better than 2e, maybe. But it's got a lot less info. Many of the same players are here (though some are NOT where, or even what, you would expect). Some things have changed, and while many have decried the apparent [stuff we don't talk about here], it may be more direct, but it's not necessarily any more prevalent. That is, I see a lot of similar sentiments in 2e, just maybe not as explicitly. Doesn't bother me, as it seems to go both ways, and there's even a disclaimer that the game isn't promoting a moral. That aside, there are things that are definitely not PC, and I can see people from all walks of life getting offended at different times (one passage mentions that
gangstalking victims are often the victims of "remote sexual assault"
). Can't really say much more than that. Lots of info on the various groups, but not really anything about how they might interact or their reputations, which to me is a massive oversight. Each District (what they used to call "Barrios"in 2e) and group is detailed, and there is plenty here to work and game with, but there's no escaping that, compared to 2e, the setting has been pared down along with the mechanics. But, whereas the mechanics can be seen as more of a distillation, the setting just seems to be missing something when compared to 2e. The various groups in 2e were, in a way, statted (Rep, basic M.O, Allies/enemies, etc), and that is sorely missed here. Sure, you can come up with this on your own, or let it develop organically in your campaign, but then what if some official supplement contradicts it? As for the updating and changes (and I don't want to give anything away), I think all of that stuff was handled well, and a nice job was done of making this setting feel modern while retaining much of the flavor of the original. In fact, I've seen reviewers who complained that the setting is now "too PC", and I've also seen reviewers who criticized it as being "too gritty and downbeat" compared to the original.

Bottom line: Both are very good, detailed usable settings, and contain suffiecient info to get you started and keep you gaming for quite some time. But when placed side-by-side, 2e clearly outpaces 3e in terms of sheer completeness and depth.


Bottom bottom line: 2e is a classic for a reason, despite my being less than excited about the (totally adequate) system. You should own this, period. 3e is a mixed bag. On balance, I like it, and will probably run this for my group. Still, it's easy to see what this edition got right, as well as what it got wrong. And, sure, it'd be easy to port the expanded setting information over, character conversion will be a snap. But that kind of just highlights the fact that some of the material is missing in the first place, doesn't it?


Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 
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I played 3e at GenCon a few years back. Didn't care for it -- way too abstract -- but I can see fans of PbtA games enjoying it.

I was annoyed that there was no way for PCs to challenge each other. (Yes, there was an in-character reason for wanting to do so.)
 
It's way more rules-lite than my usual fare. I've only dabbled in one Fate-adjacent game (Blacky the Blackball's Masks, which I liked but my group didn't), and never played any Savage Worlds, Cypher, PbtA, or anything like that.

Not being able to challenge other PCs? Not sure why that would be different from any other cast, but maybe I missed that rule/part. You sure it wasn't just a GM policy?
 
But, to your point, this game isn't for everyone.
 
A couple of things to add to my above comments: 2e did have some optional dice rolling rules that could add some good/bad results. Slightly similar to what we see in 3e, but it's much more "front and center" in the new edition.
 
Gringnr said:
It's way more rules-lite than my usual fare. I've only dabbled in one Fate-adjacent game (Blacky the Blackball's Masks, which I liked but my group didn't), and never played any Savage Worlds, Cypher, PbtA, or anything like that.

Not being able to challenge other PCs? Not sure why that would be different from any other cast, but maybe I missed that rule/part. You sure it wasn't just a GM policy?
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I don't think it was a GM policy. The author was the GM. :grin:
 
Hm. Weird, I can't find anything about that, anywhere.
 
Gringnr said:
Hm. Weird, I can't find anything about that, anywhere.
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Well... I think this may have been pre-publication, so maybe that was changed/fixed in the final version. The author acted as though he hadn't considered that possibility.
 
Dan Davenport said:
Well... I think this may have been pre-publication, so maybe that was changed/fixed in the final version. The author acted as though he hadn't considered that possibility.
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I hit up Jonathan Tweet, via Tweet. He says, "It's strictly against the rules." I must be missing it, my bad. You are correct, and I should learn to hold my tongue, even while typing.
 
@ Gringnr Gringnr I picked up 2e based on the strength of your review. I knew it was gonna be good once I saw the list of sample character concepts after a quick skim. You weren't kidding, it's more dense than I expected. Normally I can burn through an RPG book in an evening but this one needs a little more time and consideration. The art resembles the lower-tier White White art from the 90's but I can look past that. Thanks for the recommendation.
 
Brock Savage said:
@ Gringnr Gringnr I picked up 2e based on the strength of your review. I knew it was gonna be good once I saw the list of sample character concepts after a quick skim. You weren't kidding, it's more dense than I expected. Normally I can burn through an RPG book in an evening but this one needs a little more time and consideration. The art resembles the lower-tier White White art from the 90's but I can look past that. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Glad you like it. It's a neat game, and fun to run. I'm digging 3rd as well, despite the rules being slimmer (in fact, I like 3e's rules a little better), and setting not being presented in as much detail. But I can see why it's been a tough sell for fans of the older edition.
 
A review I saw said that 3rd would be fine if you never played the older editions, but that if you have, it will seem like an "also-ran". I have to say, I don't entirely agree, although the differences between editions are unmistakable. Having played and enjoyed 2nd, I like 3rd, even if it isn't as "deep" as 2nd with regard to the setting. For one, let's face it, a lot of that background isn't going to wind up in from of the players. It's kind of like extensive homebrew world building, the majority of what you do is never seen. That's not to say that the additional info on the various groups and factions isn't missed, because it is. But, there's still enough here that 3e stands on its own, IMO. And when it comes to a game that is so heavily influenced by pop culture, an update after a time becomes practically a necessity. Its funny, comparing certain things between editions, just how dated certain things have become. And not just because 2e is set in a perpetual mid-80s (even when the game came out in the 90s, it was set in the 80s). Pop culture references usually age badly. Not as badly as some in the case of 2e, but it's funny how certain attitudes and perceptions have changed. Not even talking about stuff we don't talk about here, either. A lot of it's subtler than that.

2e definitely has what I would call a broader appeal, which is frankly a weird thing to say about a game with such a bizarre setting. But then, most satire has relatable elements.
 
Bit the bullet on "Welcome to the Island" in hardcover. I'd like to see the make more supplements for this version.
 
Brock Savage said:
@ Gringnr Gringnr I picked up 2e based on the strength of your review. I knew it was gonna be good once I saw the list of sample character concepts after a quick skim. You weren't kidding, it's more dense than I expected. Normally I can burn through an RPG book in an evening but this one needs a little more time and consideration. The art resembles the lower-tier White White art from the 90's but I can look past that. Thanks for the recommendation.
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RE: density, my Adobe-fu says that 3e has about 150k words, and 2e, despite being nearly 40 pages leaner, has over 165k. I do agree with Grim on one point, there is a bit of a feeling of wasted space here. Not as bad as Icons (which, while a great game, is my turd standard for ugly, intrusive graphical garbage and ridiculously wide borders that leave maybe a paragraph or two of actual information on each page), but it seems like it could have been better utilized. Still, it is easy on the eyes in more ways than one.
 
I would just suggest a couple of things that may have been mentioned before.

Firstly, both editions remain broadly compatible even though they use different systems. There are some adjustments, but because the game is rules light and based on simple trait ratings, it is perfectly possible to just revert back to using old dicepools again. Secondly, and following on, if you like the material presented in the corebooks, there is a wealth of supplemental support for the previous editions with some great plotlines and ideas too. Indeed, I've also found that a lot of the ideas/scenarios from other weird games are pretty compatible also - Unknown Armies, Feng Shui, Mage: The Ascension, Doctor Who.
 
Trippy said:
I would just suggest a couple of things that may have been mentioned before.

Firstly, both editions remain broadly compatible even though they use different systems. There are some adjustments, but because the game is rules light and based on simple trait ratings, it is perfectly possible to just revert back to using old dicepools again. Secondly, and following on, if you like the material presented in the corebooks, there is a wealth of supplemental support for the previous editions with some great plotlines and ideas too. Indeed, I've also found that a lot of the ideas/scenarios from other weird games are pretty compatible also - Unknown Armies, Feng Shui, Mage: The Ascension, Doctor Who.
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Absolutely. I've already been looking at scenarios from previous editions, and, as you noted, character/system conversion looks to be a breeze.
 
Trippy said:
Indeed, I've also found that a lot of the ideas/scenarios from other weird games are pretty compatible also - Unknown Armies, Feng Shui, Mage: The Ascension, Doctor Who.
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Funny you say that, I was thinking the island would make a good setting for other modern weird or supernatural games. Mage was at the top of the list. Over the Edge joins Lacuna on my pile of cool games I will never find the right players for.
 
I don't really like playing established (non-original) characters in any rpg, but I've always felt that 80s comic book super hero, Badger (a schizophrenic martial artist who can talk to animals and assumes that many of his adventures are delusions or hallucinations) would be a perfect OtE character. Maybe I'll use him as an NPC, since none of my players will be familiar with him.
 
Here's the character tracking sheet from when I started our last game.

We had a stuntman with a drug problem looking for his next big thrill, an anarcho-tantrist posessed by a Lucha Libre Exotico Ultimo from another dimension, a Knight Templar trying to figure out his missing time event after he saw three bright lights in the sky, a health and wellness motivational speaker, and a time-manipulating con man.

OTE-PC-Tracker.jpg
 
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Apparently there is a Spanish translation of OtE (unsure which edition), that is set during the 1960s, and now I really really want it right now. Plus Spanish lessons.
 
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