[Hero System/Champions] Champions Now?

[Trippy]

I mean there is wordy and then there is Ron Edwards. This isn’t just conversational, it is stream of thought writing. I too am reading through Champions Now and wondering how much of it is actually game material. .The ‘Basics’ chapter starts off by discussing an example character without defining terms.

I think the actual rules look OK, albeit a bit eccentric - the Characteristics aren’t standardised at all, the skill list is short and peculiarly selective, I’m still working though the Powers.

 

[Toric]

Spent yesterday and today looking this over and I'm out. The last straw was the author's comments on his own discord channel. A little too preachy and "my way or the highway" approach to game design and running games. He rubbed me the wrong way, but I won't reproduce his posts here. On top of that, the actual text of Champions Now does not appeal to me at all and the organization of the book is not good. I'm no expert in game design but I know what I like and this doesn't appeal to me. I had no idea who the author was before I bought this book but I have done a little research and read through this thread here and I now have a better idea.

The good news is it rekindled my interest in 3rd edition Champions. I still own the softcover 4th edition Champions book, a few supplements, Enemies and Enemies II. I like the big blue 4th edition book but 3rd edition is more my style. Plus 3rd is the edition of the game I actually tried way back in high school and is the one I remember most fondly. I just bought a copy of the rulebook on eBay for about ten bucks and also bought the PDF to peruse until the actual book gets here. As I don't generally like reading from PDF, I printed the book and comb-bound it.

It might be fun to run this again all these years later. Maybe online or as a PbP game or something.

 

[Dumarest]

It might be fun to run this again all these years later. Maybe online or as a PbP game or something.

Let me know if you end up doing it.

 

[Bunch]

Let me know if you end up doing it.

What he said.

 

[TristramEvans]

Ron Edwards doing an edition of Champions is so surreal, it'd be like Pundit writing a new edition of Dogs in the Vineyard, or Risus by the author of Phoenix Command. I'd almost like to read it just out of curiosity, but I wasn't even able to get all the way through Sorcerer back in the day.

 

[Toric]

Let me know if you end up doing it.

What he said.

You guys down for a PbP game? Or something live online? And do you like 2nd or 3rd edition Champions better? I started looking at 2nd and I'm on the fence between that and 3rd.

 

[Toric]

Ron Edwards doing an edition of Champions is so surreal, it'd be like Pundit writing a new edition of Dogs in the Vineyard, or Risus by the author of Phoenix Command. I'd almost like to read it just out of curiosity, but I wasn't even able to get all the way through Sorcerer back in the day.

If I had a physical book of this, I would send it to you as I'll never do anything with it. Alas, it is just a PDF. At least it isn't taking up valuable shelf space, just virtual space on the hard drive but that is easily remedied.

 

[Bunch]

If I had a physical book of this, I would send it to you as I'll never do anything with it. Alas, it is just a PDF. At least it isn't taking up valuable shelf space, just virtual space on the hard drive but that is easily remedied.

I backed Champions Now and City State of the Invincible Overlord. I'm happier with CSotIO because it came with robertsconley maps. Champions Now came with a bunch of old champions pdfs that I ended up getting again in the bundle of holding

 

[robertsconley]

I backed Champions Now and City State of the Invincible Overlord. I'm happier with CSotIO because it came with robertsconley maps. Champions Now came with a bunch of old champions pdfs that I ended up getting again in the bundle of holding

Not how I would have handled it. Although my jam would be more about Fantasy Hero than Champions.
Appreciated the compliment.

 

[robertsconley]

You guys down for a PbP game? Or something live online? And do you like 2nd or 3rd edition Champions better? I started looking at 2nd and I'm on the fence between that and 3rd.

Having gone through all the editions of Champions my preference remains 5th edition. Mainly because while there are differences 2nd to 5th are variation off of the same system. I have little trouble transitioning what I learned and found 5e to be a more complete and consistent reference.

However if I was give something to teach Champions, 3rd edition is the sweet spot.

 

[Dumarest]

You guys down for a PbP game? Or something live online? And do you like 2nd or 3rd edition Champions better? I started looking at 2nd and I'm on the fence between that and 3rd.

Either way. I expect to obtain a new laptop or something soon so I can do face-to-face since in-person is not really an option now. I haven't had a session in weeks.

2nd or 3rd are both fine by me, but I think 3rd would probably be simpler since all the rules are in one place whereas 2nd has some scattered in other books (although you could just as easily rule main book only).

 

[Bunch]

However if I was give something to teach Champions, 3rd edition is the sweet spot.

That's sort of why I'm not so keen on post 3rd edition stuff.
The points are to get things in the right rough ballpark in my mind. After 3rd it sort of felt like they were circling a very small set of issues that could more easily be solved by asking your players to not be a jerk.

 

[Dumarest]

That's sort of why I'm not so keen on post 3rd edition stuff.
The points are to get things in the right rough ballpark in my mind. After 3rd it sort of felt like they were circling a very small set of issues that could more easily be solved by asking your players to not be a jerk.

That's why all I ever did was eyeball the sheets to make sure everyone looked about equal and make sure there were no b.s. "I'm cheating without cheating" powers. The numbers don't really matter much, although I know from my brief time on the Hero forum there is a certain subset of players and referees who obsess over them to the point that I sometimes wonder if they actually played any scenarios or just played the character creation game.

​

 

[Bunch]

That's why all I ever did was eyeball the sheets to make sure everyone looked about equal and make sure there were no b.s. "I'm cheating without cheating" powers. The numbers don't really matter much, although I know from my brief time on the Hero forum there is a certain subset of players and referees who obsess over them to the point that I sometimes wonder if they actually played any scenarios or just played the character creation game.

View attachment 17311​

I love the folks who put so much time into character building because it means when I (with no free time) want to build something I just look up what they recommend. So to all you armchair gamers who just build characters and stat them up. "Thank you!" From someone with the time anymore.

 

[sureshot]

Oh for... If we're buying a superhero RPG, we already KNOW what superheroes are!

This is why I sthink that once again Hero Games missed yet another opportunity. Those buying this kind of rpg as you said know what they are being . Even them a short 5-10 page section on what superheroes are is enough.

 

[robertsconley]

That's sort of why I'm not so keen on post 3rd edition stuff.
The points are to get things in the right rough ballpark in my mind. After 3rd it sort of felt like they were circling a very small set of issues that could more easily be solved by asking your players to not be a jerk.

My point of view is that 5e is like a all in one reference to everything in HERO system as far as mechanics go. Functionally it is 99% the same thing. I know there are differences but in the three campaign I ran in the 15 years or so it been out I haven't noticed them.

Also of course if a player get mad I have an instant shield to use. ;-)

If I were ever to do a Heroes of the Majestic Fantasy Realms supplement I would use 3e as my outline. Using 5e for options and ideas.

 

[Bunch]

My point of view is that 5e is like a all in one reference to everything in HERO system as far as mechanics go. Functionally it is 99% the same thing. I know there are differences but in the three campaign I ran in the 15 years or so it been out I haven't noticed them.

Also of course if a player get mad I have an instant shield to use. ;-)

If I were ever to do a Heroes of the Majestic Fantasy Realms supplement I would use 3e as my outline. Using 5e for options and ideas.

I will definitely give it to HERO that the core has stayed remarkably consistent. The impact of the small changes it seems to me is point creep without power creep. Correct me if I'm wrong but my 250 pt Champions 2nd edition character is now 350+ in Hero 4th+ edition. Some of that is 3rd and earlier hand waved some of the effects saying "these situations/modifiers are small enough that we'll just not worry about them" where 4th+ said "players can/are abusing that so here's how to solve it with points!"

It's not really a huge ding as I suspect it's true and we'll done but it increases startup costs and front loads things even more which is not something HERO needed more of.

 

[robertsconley]

I will definitely give it to HERO that the core has stayed remarkably consistent. The impact of the small changes it seems to me is point creep without power creep. Correct me if I'm wrong but my 250 pt Champions 2nd edition character is now 350+ in Hero 4th+ edition. Some of that is 3rd and earlier hand waved some of the effects saying "these situations/modifiers are small enough that we'll just not worry about them" where 4th+ said "players can/are abusing that so here's how to solve it with points!"

It's not really a huge ding as I suspect it's true and we'll done but it increases startup costs and front loads things even more which is not something HERO needed more of.

I was aware of the changes in point totals. At first I had a similar attitude about it. Oh man this is going to invalidate X, Y, and Z.

Hero System was never my main system after the late 80s. I used it primarily to run a superhero campaign every few years. So I was all about keeping the overhead low in terms of campaign prep. One of the thing that happened was that I kept on using the material I made or photocopied for when I used 2nd and 3rd edition. For example I have all the 2e villain books photocopied onto cardstock and keep them in a folder for use at the table.

So my method now is to keep using the old stuff but when making new stuff use the cost out of the 5th edition book. Occasionally I will swap in a newer edition version but it done on an ad-hoc basis.

The other thing I like is Heromaker. Mainly because the printed character sheet is so much easier to read. Wish they supported older editions but right now it just supports 5e or 6e unless something changed in the last few years.

 

[Dumarest]

A lot of the change in point totals can be traced to the change in philosophy re: skills. Originally, if you said your superhero was a physicist in his secret ID, you were assumed to have the relevant skills without having to buy them from a list. The list was also very short and mainly oriented towards things you'd use in a fight or chase scene from a comic book. Then they began expanding and further expanding the skill list and breaking up one skill into multiple skills and made it so that unless you paid for a skill, you were assumed not to have it.

 

[Bunch]

A lot of the change in point totals can be traced to the change in philosophy re: skills. Originally, if you said your superhero was a physicist in his secret ID, you were assumed to have the relevant skills without having to buy them from a list. The list was also very short and mainly oriented towards things you'd use in a fight or chase scene from a comic book. Then they began expanding and further expanding the skill list and breaking up one skill into multiple skills and made it so that unless you paid for a skill, you were assumed not to have it.

Yup that's the removal of handwaveing I mentioned before.

 

[Dumarest]

Yup that's the removal of handwaveing I mentioned before.

I'm not a fan of the expanded skill list. I'd have to check, but I seem to recall "acrobatics," for instance, was turned into at least 3 separate and somewhat redundant skills. (I was also perfectly happy with martial arts just being the one skill that let you do more under damage under the guise of "it's martial arts!")

 

[Gabriel]

I just noticed the Champions 4e book is now available POD at DTRPG if anyone would like a softcover.

 

[Trippy]

I just noticed the Champions 4e book is now available POD at DTRPG if anyone would like a softcover.

I have the PDF, including the most recent update. I’m not sure its going to make a great quality POD.

 

[Voros]

I have the Champions Now PDF but haven't read it yet. I got it out of curiousity as I was never a fan of Champions high crunch approach to superheroes and wanted to see how this unlikely pairing worked out. I liked Sorcerer, S/Lay w/me and Trollbabe by Edwards.

 

[Toric]

I have the Champions Now PDF but haven't read it yet. I got it out of curiousity as I was never a fan of Champions high crunch approach to superheroes and wanted to see how this unlikely pairing worked out. I liked Sorcerer, S/Lay w/me and Trollbabe by Edwards.

I have often thought of Champions as high crunch over the years but my recent re-examination of the 3rd edition reminded me that the earlier editions were really much less crunchy than the more current editions. Also the gameplay rules are not terribly crunchy on their own. Character generation has always been the crunchier aspect of Champions.

 

[Dumarest]

I have often thought of Champions as high crunch over the years but my recent re-examination of the 3rd edition reminded me that the earlier editions were really much less crunchy than the more current editions. Also the gameplay rules are not terribly crunchy on their own. Character generation has always been the crunchier aspect of Champions.

My feeling is Champions has a crunch dial that goes to 11 if the players and referee want to turn it that way, or down to 5 if they choose otherwise. It really depends on how interested they are in "builds" and optimization and bookkeeping tricks vs. just making a goddam superhero with some powers they think are cool and fighting the bad guys.

 

[Bunch]

My feeling is Champions has a crunch dial that goes to 11 if the players and referee want to turn it that way, or down to 5 if they choose otherwise. It really depends on how interested they are in "builds" and optimization and bookkeeping tricks vs. just making a goddam superhero with some powers they think are cool and fighting the bad guys.

To be fair if you are trying to build a character from an idea you have you can run into the problem of not having enough points. If you're not interested in scaling back the powers you are sort of forced to manipulate the various cost mechanics. It doesn't have to be for egregious power hungry reasons either.

 

[James Gillen]

My feeling is Champions has a crunch dial that goes to 11 if the players and referee want to turn it that way, or down to 5 if they choose otherwise. It really depends on how interested they are in "builds" and optimization and bookkeeping tricks vs. just making a goddam superhero with some powers they think are cool and fighting the bad guys.

"Well, why don't you just scale down the costs so you get all this new stuff with the same number of points, and make that the new 10?"
".....
Well, this one goes to 11."

 

[Toric]

To be fair if you are trying to build a character from an idea you have you can run into the problem of not having enough points. If you're not interested in scaling back the powers you are sort of forced to manipulate the various cost mechanics. It doesn't have to be for egregious power hungry reasons either.

Not speaking for Duma, but I think he is more talking about those who really try to manipulate the points to fit more and more into the build rather than just saying "I want this guy to fly, fire blasts of fire from his eyes and be resistant to being knocked around the battlefield" and then spending points on those things until you run out without trying to find every loophole in the rules to squeeze out more and more points.

The more points you are using to build a character, the more stuff like this happens. I think the baseline characters in the early editions like 3rd of 250 points somewhat takes care of this problem itself. You kinda go in knowing that 250 isn't a ton of points and know that you probably won't necessarily get every little thing you might want.

 

[Nexus]

I'm interested in this out of curiosity, but 5th Edition is my fave and I haven't read anything about Champions Now to change that.

 

[Dumarest]

Not speaking for Duma, but I think he is more talking about those who really try to manipulate the points to fit more and more into the build rather than just saying "I want this guy to fly, fire blasts of fire from his eyes and be resistant to being knocked around the battlefield" and then spending points on those things until you run out without trying to find every loophole in the rules to squeeze out more and more points.

The more points you are using to build a character, the more stuff like this happens. I think the baseline characters in the early editions like 3rd of 250 points somewhat takes care of this problem itself. You kinda go in knowing that 250 isn't a ton of points and know that you probably won't necessarily get every little thing you might want.

Yep.

 

[Gabriel]

Not speaking for Duma, but I think he is more talking about those who really try to manipulate the points to fit more and more into the build rather than just saying "I want this guy to fly, fire blasts of fire from his eyes and be resistant to being knocked around the battlefield" and then spending points on those things until you run out without trying to find every loophole in the rules to squeeze out more and more points.

The more points you are using to build a character, the more stuff like this happens. I think the baseline characters in the early editions like 3rd of 250 points somewhat takes care of this problem itself. You kinda go in knowing that 250 isn't a ton of points and know that you probably won't necessarily get every little thing you might want.

Not in Hero, but I've seen the exact opposite in point build games. If the point ceiling is high, then the builders will get sloppy and won't optimize because they have the points to burn. But if points are low, that's when the players get really obsessive over every little tenth of a point, and design as lean and optimized as possible.

But yeah, if players have a lot of points, they tend to buy everything under the sun, whereas if points are lower they tend to be very focused on getting specific key abilities and making sure they're optimized.

 

[Toric]

Not in Hero, but I've seen the exact opposite in point build games. If the point ceiling is high, then the builders will get sloppy and won't optimize because they have the points to burn. But if points are low, that's when the players get really obsessive over every little tenth of a point, and design as lean and optimized as possible.

But yeah, if players have a lot of points, they tend to buy everything under the sun, whereas if points are lower they tend to be very focused on getting specific key abilities and making sure they're optimized.

Exactly.

I'm going to soon start a 3rd edition Champions game and most of the players either haven't played Champions in a long time or have never played. This will contribute to players not obsessing over every single point and look more to buy the abilities they want for the character without a ton of point squeezing and probably not so many of the more complex aspects like Multipowers and Elemental Controls. The builds will probably mostly be pretty straight-forward and basic. This isn't to say that no one will use a Multipower or Power Advantages or Limitations but as people new to the system (or coming back after a long time) they will tend to ignore making characters that are too complex.

 

[DarcyDettmann]

Someone have a "Champions Now written for normal people", because i feel reading the 6e of Hero System more easy than reading Champions Now.

 

[Bunch]

Someone have a "Champions Now written for normal people", because i feel reading the 6e of Hero System more easy than reading Champions Now.

Skip waaaaay ahead and get to the mechanics and it's a bit better.

 

[DarcyDettmann]

Skip waaaaay ahead and get to the mechanics and it's a bit better.

I don't know, i reading the Powers and... It's not making any sense, at all. Too "Big Brains" and "I suppose your GM can say if this work or not" for me.

 

[Chris Brady]

This is not looking good for the book for me...

 

[Trippy]

Sorry, still reading through it - it is a protracted and eccentric dissertation about how the Champions game could have developed, rather than a game. The ‘game’ bit is like appendices or footnotes, and lack a sense of completeness or play testing vigour. One could have hoped for more, but sadly it can’t be recommended.

 

[BigJackBrass]

… a protracted and eccentric dissertation

Maybe I'm crazy, but when I think of all the things that Champions and Hero need "a protracted and eccentric dissertation" is strangely absent from my list.

After the release of sixth edition caused more fragmenting of the fanbase and upset people who regarded it as making the game less accessible for newcomers, this just seems like yet another splinter. Without an efficient and ruthless editor I don't think that Ron Edwards can put together clear and comprehensible rules. It's not quite Champions so what is it for?

 

[sureshot]

I know I have said this before I just wonder what the point of Champions Now. It seems to be just an attempt at nostalgia and seems to have missed the mark.

After the release of sixth edition caused more fragmenting of the fanbase and upset people who regarded it as making the game less accessible for newcomers, this just seems like yet another splinter. Without an efficient and ruthless editor I don't think that Ron Edwards can put together clear and comprehensible rules. It's not quite Champions so what is it for?

I think Champions Now tried to appeal to many Hero System fans and failed imo. It maybe too early to say yet it seems like it missed the mark. As to who it is for I think it was a strange attempt at appealing at nostalgia when many fans wanted an easier less complex and crunchy systems.