Let's talk about Spacemaster

[David Johansen]

The medical tech in SPAM is up to it. Pretty much Fifth Element level stuff. Well, assuming the Dragoon (biomod warrior) doesn't get in an argument over a prisoner / patient with the medical droid and shoots it. Then you might be in trouble if you don't have a PC medic.

Still, I believe the lethality is over stated. Oh it's there but consider that in the much loved BD&D a fighter gets 1d8 hp and a sword does 1d8 hp damage. The odd one percent chance of instant death isn't so bad after all.

 

[Triumvir]

You know it's funny you say that because of the number of Sci-fi fans I know who are SO into furries without actually saying it. Plus you know I've heard--as a rumor--that David Pulver has a big thing for cat girls, and for me that would count. I don't care because I may be a furry or not, whatever, ..

I think the issue isn't that they don't like furries--they just don't want the creepy side of furry fandom in their Sci-Fi (which generally regardless of how I count, I tend to wholeheartedly agree with them.)

[my emphasis]

Mate... just own it!

Still, I believe the lethality is over stated. Oh it's there but consider that in the much loved BD&D a fighter gets 1d8 hp and a sword does 1d8 hp damage. The odd one percent chance of instant death isn't so bad after all.

The point people are trying to make, I think, is that in BD&D it takes about 5 mins to roll up a PC, so character death doesn't need to be such a big deal.

I don't know if I have the GM chops to allow a PC to die that someone took an hour to create just so they could join my game.

I suppose the way round it is for players to roll up 2 or 3 spares in advance, and be ready to switch to a new one.

 

[James Gillen]

In Spacemaster, your character can lucky shot a skill (probably combat) roll in ways that, IIRC, Traveller only manages in wet dreams.

"Shot through both ears, hearing impaired."

 

[Silverlion]

[my emphasis]

Mate... just own it!


The point people are trying to make, I think, is that in BD&D it takes about 5 mins to roll up a PC, so character death doesn't need to be such a big deal.

I don't know if I have the GM chops to allow a PC to die that someone took an hour to create just so they could join my game.

I suppose the way round it is for players to roll up 2 or 3 spares in advance, and be ready to switch to a new one.

I've pretty much said so in the past. I've only become hesitant lately because of some things people have done recently.

 

[Sharrow]

I'm not so sure Space Opera "got a pass" as was simply so obscure and complex that it went unnoticed.

Even so, Space Opera is very much about classic science fiction hardware and aliens. They've got Marauder Suits and Bolos in the game. I've always been a bit disappointed, with all the weapon options, that they decided to make blasters simply the best weapon and then went and reduced space combat to blasters and torpedos. Missed oportunity.

Well, initially it was WWI in Space, so that made sense. Then it was WWII in Space, and made a bit less sense. Also, I suspect they just ran out of room and time.

Oh, and fusion guns were the best weapon sometimes. Or gauss rifles. Or blasters. But probably not conventional guns or lasers (though honestly they were all about the same unless the other guy had spectacular armour plus screen).

 

[Sharrow]

You've not read all of the books have you? The males are VERY warlike. Females are traders/merchants/etc. Notably, also it's their "lion+society" aspects--the Aslan society is nearly identical which is what I mean.

I have, except perhaps that last. As I recall the Hani males fight each other (assuming their wives and sisters let other makes near them), duels, not wars.

The thing is, those later books post-date the foundational Traveller source books. In the Chanur series the males (until the events of the novels) don't leave home, and are just figureheads, and the females don't see anything odd or unusual about arming themselves and fighting (beyond them being merchants and very much preferring to not get into firefights). Male Aslan do all the direct fighting that isn't female vs female honour dueling.

I'm not arguing that they aren't quite similar, though not the same. I am arguing that they are unlikely to be direct copies, due to the differences and the timing.

 

[Bunch]

Regarding Furries and negative connotation. I don't recall it being an issue at all in the 70s and 80s. I think it took the internet to connect uplifted animals to people who like to roleplay Furries in bed before negative association happened.

 

[Triumvir]

I always assumed Traveller's Aslan were based off Niven's Kzin, but then I have somehow managed to miss out on CJ Cherryh completely.

 

[chuckdee]

I think people don't consider the fact that easy character death means that it isn't all that frontloaded because when the PC dies you have to go back and do all that again. Unless you're one of those people who just renamed the character and introduces them as their brother/sister/father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate.

It's not as easy as you're saying. Everyone doesn't die- in fact I'd say not most either. And you need to respect combat and what it means.

 

[David Johansen]

Yeah, I want rules that encourage realistic approaches to combat. If the players look to non-combat solutions to problems because they're scared, that's a big plus in my book.

 

[chuckdee]

I don't know if I have the GM chops to allow a PC to die that someone took an hour to create just so they could join my game.

The other thing about it is that if you've made a PC before, especially if you don't min max similar skills. Roll 10 stats, roll potentials, spend your points for level 1.

 

[Bunch]

Yeah, I want rules that encourage realistic approaches to combat. If the players look to non-combat solutions to problems because they're scared, that's a big plus in my book.

So that's totally reasonable but honestly quite at odds with the dramatic and cool nature of the critical hits table in my opinion. I mean you have all this work that goes into giving detailed, gruesome or hilarious ways to die/get injured but you should avoid combat.

 

[Bunch]

I pulled out my old Spacemaster stuff just to see what I had and maybe make a character. I have such a random assortment of crap. I have 1st edition Tech and Future Law, 2nd edition Spacemaster Companion I and Spacemasters 3rd edition Tech Law Robotics and Equipment manuals. And a collection of modules.

If I get a chance I'll make a character and time how long it takes for me to get through it.

 

[David Johansen]

So that's totally reasonable but honestly quite at odds with the dramatic and cool nature of the critical hits table in my opinion. I mean you have all this work that goes into giving detailed, gruesome or hilarious ways to die/get injured but you should avoid combat.

In practice it doesn't remove combat just cuts down on the usual PC bloodthirstiness.

 

[Sharrow]

In practice it doesn't remove combat just cuts down on the usual PC bloodthirstiness.

My experience was that it encouraged good tactics (i.e. ambushes).

 

[Rasyr]

Oh yeah, HARP was an attempt to replace MERP with an entry level product after the bankrupcy. It's basically a third leg. I can't understand why anyone would turn to Rolemaster and want less but there you go. The current President of ICE wrote the HARP SF game and Tintamar setting. I'm afraid I haven't bothered with either. I've always seen HARP as a huge mistep that fractured the fanbase further, just like the new edtion of Rolemaster will.

The idea behind HARP was to try and capture d20 players who wanted more, but who were not ready to go all Rolemaster. At the time only RMFRP/RMSS was available, so it was an intensely complicated system (compared to d20 at the time). At the time, the idea was a good one!! It was also why HARP went with 8 stats rather than D&D (or MERP's) six or RM's 10.

The very first draft actually did look like MERP in many respects, but the owner of the Rolemaster IP had trouble understanding character generation (apparently not able to keep multiple thoughts in his head -- in fact, it looked much like Against the Darkmaster in the frist draft, but with more skills (since RM of the time had tons and tons more skills).

The bosses and the IP owenr demanded more changes as things went along and we end up with what was published (which I very sincerely regret at this point, as the finished product had TONS of flaws in it..... (no game is perfect, but all the retrofits to the original draft broke things more than I realized at the time.

Then a few years later, the bosses wanted to republish RM2 to try and bring back into the fold those who left because they did not like RMSS/FRP and in the process of doing that, we discovered that many of the rules of RM2 were not actual rules, but options that were not clearly labeled. And that prompted the idea of publishing RM Express (RMX) which was JUST the core rules with a few small options implemented to make it more playable -- even RM2/RMC had its flaws heheh).

And ICE at the time was planning on a revision that would have used an RMX-like core, with optional expansions that included a variant skill system that resembled the RMFRP one, but which could be easily converted to from the RMNext (which I do still have the PDF of) core. But Mjolnir lost the ICE license before that could happen.....

 

[David Johansen]

Ah well, I've long suspected the owner is the root of the problem. Which is why I've never tried to go back.

There's a lot I'd have liked to do for RM and SPAM. More articles on non-combat activities. A huge selection of training packages for SPAM that really lean into using it as a lifepath system, races and adventures. Instead I've spent my time writing my own games.

 

[Rasyr]

Ah well, I've long suspected the owner is the root of the problem. Which is why I've never tried to go back.

There's a lot I'd have liked to do for RM and SPAM. More articles on non-combat activities. A huge selection of training packages for SPAM that really lean into using it as a lifepath system, races and adventures. Instead I've spent my time writing my own games.

One of the many projects I am currently working on is a d20fied version of Against the Darkmaster (also working on monster supplements for vsD too), and once I get that done, perhaps I should a space-faring version of it as well... That could be very cool.....

 

[Triumvir]

The history with Rolemaster seems a bit tortured.

One of the many projects I am currently working on is a d20fied version of Against the Darkmaster (also working on monster supplements for vsD too), and once I get that done, perhaps I should a space-faring version of it as well... That could be very cool.....

More spacegames is good. Was there ever a SF version of Novus? At least you wouldn't have to try too hard to think up a name...

 

[Korgoth]

 

[Rasyr]

The history with Rolemaster seems a bit tortured.

You have no idea........ Even the little bit I have mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg....

More spacegames is good. Was there ever a SF version of Novus? At least you wouldn't have to try too hard to think up a name...

I have not, it is on my list of things to do, but I am more fantasy oriented than space oriented, though I do have a couple of setting ideas wrote up in overview documents (i.e. mainly just a write up the of the core idea for the setting).

 

[Silverlion]

The history with Rolemaster seems a bit tortured.




More spacegames is good. Was there ever a SF version of Novus? At least you wouldn't have to try too hard to think up a name...

I've been trying to convince him to write one.

 

[Rasyr]

I've been trying to convince him to write one.

Pushily! ROFL

 

[Gringnr]

I've mentioned it previously, but it's probably not a bad idea to drop a link for Navigator, a sort-of Spacemaster retro-clone.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Author didn't want to run into copyright issues, so "Psionics" are basically just spells from Swords & Wizardry.

 

[Triumvir]

Interesting, thanks

 

[David Johansen]

I've mentioned it previously, but it's probably not a bad idea to drop a link for Navigator, a sort-of Spacemaster retro-clone.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Author didn't want to run into copyright issues, so "Psionics" are basically just spells from Swords & Wizardry.

I've got notes for one of those myself

 

[Rasyr]

I've mentioned it previously, but it's probably not a bad idea to drop a link for Navigator, a sort-of Spacemaster retro-clone.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Author didn't want to run into copyright issues, so "Psionics" are basically just spells from Swords & Wizardry.

I forgot that I had purchased that myself at some point in the past...

 

[Mangoplum]

I've mentioned it previously, but it's probably not a bad idea to drop a link for Navigator, a sort-of Spacemaster retro-clone.

Does it differ significantly from Spacemaster? More 'streamlined' or something?
The cover image has a cyberpunk feel to it... Navigator have a setting/focus?

 

[Gringnr]

Does it differ significantly from Spacemaster? More 'streamlined' or something?
The cover image has a cyberpunk feel to it... Navigator have a setting/focus?

Not particularly, as most of the Spacemaster IP had to be jesttisoned. Author had this to say on dtrpg:

 

[David Johansen]

Oddly enough I wound up running Spacemaster tonight. Not actually my choice but the guys who came into the store tonight had some characters from a while back that we dug out and played. They were delivering a Tulgar combat group to Defiance in the Valiesian pilot's Medium Freighter. So they got there, dropped the troops, exchanged fire with a weapons platform and ran away from a stealth gunboat as the Tulgar pilots in their 2 Hawk and 1 Blood Hawk fighters covered their retreat. By my recollection that's the third session of Spacemaster I've managed to run in the eleven years I've been running my store. I've also run maybe three or four sessions of Rolemaster.

Honestly, I'd want to build my own setting, races, and code a character editor if I were doing it regularly. Building everyone else's characters is too much work.

 

[Triumvir]

There is software for many of the ICE games called ERA on drivethru (RM, SM, HARP). Seems to be a character editor and maybe a combat aid. Have you used it?

How did the game go down? Anything about the rules make it swing particularly well, or conversely, any glitches?

 

[David Johansen]

No, I never got ERA. I really haven't had much need for it.

We played pretty fast and loose on account of it was just a pickup game for a couple hours. They really need to get a heads up display for their autocannon. I know the ISC installs a mk 10 laser for free when they issue a letter of marque but the character has projectile gunnery skill for some reason.

 

[David Johansen]

Another session tonight, disrputed by my Star Frontiers loving friend's constantly questioning of everything. No, I don't have size comparisons of the ships. No I don't have military tables of organizations and two hundred years of ship designs. Ah well, the player with the medium frieghter decided they didn't want it and so they went back to the ISC and sold it off and bought one of those decomissioned gunboats and some weapons at which point the session kindof fizzled out into looking up weapon stats and figuring out hard points. Oh well, I never expected to get a second session in. I think one thing I'm going to do is expand the setting with some of the races from the Rolemaster Races and Cultures book.

The Privateers setting is closed with no other interstellar civilizations or races outside of their known space area and while I understand that from a design stand point, it's pretty boring to my mind. Also, I always feel the SPAM races are overspecialized and overbuilt.

 

[Triumvir]

The point at which they started fussing over ship layouts sounds like a good moment for cyberninjas to appear. (Borrowing from Raymond Chandler - "When in doubt have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.")

Who are the cyberninjas working for and why are they attacking? Work it out later.

And make it clear ship layout is bookkeeping done between sessions.

 

[David Johansen]

I'm in a bind with these guys. The player pushing for Spacemaster never sticks to a game for more than two or three sessions and absolutely positively changes if I put any prep work in. The Star Frontiers fan is a very disruptive player who is angry that it's not 1984 any more and that the gaming industry didn't die out at that time leaving him the sole lone gunman prophet living out his solitaire Knight Hawks campaigns under the flickering light of a single lightbulb dangling from a frayed wire. Anyhow, it's a messy group dynamic situation and frankly, as much as I love Spacemaster, it's a lot of work for me and I don't have the time right now. It's also a property that I don't own so I can't ever actually profit from the work.