Savage Worlds - Arcane Background: Heroic

[Rogerdee]

Okay a bit of background on this idea. For those that remember Mongoose Runequest both first and second, followed with Legend. If you do, this idea will be familiar to you, and would have been called Heroic Abilities. Mainly, I was dissatified with SP Mystic Power route, and thought this would be a better idea.

This is split into two: Gifts, Training. These are abilities that tap into the aspects of magic, of heroism, and are no lesser for it.

Gifts: These are received from some external source whether a Deity, Higher power and cover a lot of abilities that are not actually proper magic spells , but certainly magic in nature. This covers things like all Paladin, or Champion related class abilities.

Training: These are available through seeking reclusive masters. This would cover any particular martial art type abilities that a fighter or monk could have, ranger abilities, or in fact from any class where these 'abilities' would be beyond the normal.

Costs. These are the same for both Gifts and Training. Levels 1-5 cost 1 PP, 6-10 cost 2 PP, 11-15 cost 3 PP, 16-20 cost 4 PP.

Now I am aware that this could be covered as AB Gifted, but felt this deserved something slightly different. This way you could have a clerical (magic user) / martial monk, or clerical / martial paladin. You could a martial fighter / mage this way too.

I figure this way you could literally plumb the depths of some of the Legenday Classes books for PF and convert some of the stuff for your own games.

Thoughts?

 

[tenbones]

Some things to consider! Do you want to recreate an actual Class System in Savage Worlds (which I think is a dangerous proposition given the issues that D&D class systems present (Multiclassing, "Class Balance issues", Narrative oddness where if such meta-classes existed the impact on the setting needs to change too, Power creep). This is not to say it CAN'T be done. It most certainly can - and I'd argue has been done to the ultimate expression: Savage Rifts. But conversely, for it to remain Savage Worlds you'll need to consider what it means to *not* have a Class at all. Savage Rifts solves this brilliantly with their M.A.R.S. system. I would *LOVE* to see one in a heavily Iconic Frameworked fantasy system. But SWPathfinder may not require it.

1) Defining *what* is possible via training (i.e. normal for your setting) in your world. It may be implied or not. For example - in D&D Oriental Adventures *ANY* character could theoretically learn the Ironfist ability with the presumed training by punching hard things repeatedly (they use the whole pot of sand, pebbles, rocks cliche), until your hands/feet/head/groin can now hit for 1d10 damage.

2) For Gifts (via external sources) - I think AB's certainly fulfill this, but consider the Edges that exist that also imply this. The Eldritch Knight, (Un)Holy Warrior Edges etc. Which while not as sexy as AB Powers still scale with your PC's and can pack a wallop.

I get what you're looking for. I think the issue might be that outcomes of RAW SW rules eludes people at the deep end of the pool. All of these little Edges and Powers may seem like small numbers or even inconsequential comparatively on paper, but holy schnikes, once your character is stacked at Heroic+ levels of Edges, your PC's little bonuses will allow them to drop truly monstrous stuff.

Its hard to eyeball playing baseline SW games. The real eye-opener for me was running Savage Rifts. Where the starting characters are *monstrously* powerful. A starting Rifts character would be like a 150-pt character in SWADE. Beyond the numbers - especially when you start using the Mega Damage rules (which ultimately are already cooked into SWADE - it's just Heavy Weapons people!) you'll start realizing that your Monk with the ability to Hadouken a goblin, could spend a few points to Hadouken the castle-wall into dust. Same damage, different effects. So it's hard to see at ground level.

Costs - I'm a little leery about changing PP costs based on Rank. I'd need to see how you flesh it out. Mainly because SWADE finally (arguably an unnecessary and unwanted design choice) unified their PP-to-AB mechanics. You'd have to figure out how you wanna regulate PP acquisition (PP Edge? Ranking up?) in direct relation to your costs. Not to mention it would require rebalancing the PP costs for the effects based on the Modifiers you can add to your powers. You may end up with less effects and more cost with this system. It's a lot of levers to consider. Granted you could intend this based on your setting assumptions. As a baseline, however, you have a lot of stuff to work out.

TL/DR - don't underestimate how powerful the AB's/Mystic Powers in SWADE/SW Pathfinder already are at higher ranks. There are certainly changes you could make to fit your idea, but consider the other sub-systems those changes will necessarily impact, then adjust from there.

 

[Rogerdee]

Some things to consider! Do you want to recreate an actual Class System in Savage Worlds (which I think is a dangerous proposition given the issues that D&D class systems present (Multiclassing, "Class Balance issues", Narrative oddness where if such meta-classes existed the impact on the setting needs to change too, Power creep). This is not to say it CAN'T be done. It most certainly can - and I'd argue has been done to the ultimate expression: Savage Rifts. But conversely, for it to remain Savage Worlds you'll need to consider what it means to *not* have a Class at all. Savage Rifts solves this brilliantly with their M.A.R.S. system. I would *LOVE* to see one in a heavily Iconic Frameworked fantasy system. But SWPathfinder may not require it.

1) Defining *what* is possible via training (i.e. normal for your setting) in your world. It may be implied or not. For example - in D&D Oriental Adventures *ANY* character could theoretically learn the Ironfist ability with the presumed training by punching hard things repeatedly (they use the whole pot of sand, pebbles, rocks cliche), until your hands/feet/head/groin can now hit for 1d10 damage.

2) For Gifts (via external sources) - I think AB's certainly fulfill this, but consider the Edges that exist that also imply this. The Eldritch Knight, (Un)Holy Warrior Edges etc. Which while not as sexy as AB Powers still scale with your PC's and can pack a wallop.

I get what you're looking for. I think the issue might be that outcomes of RAW SW rules eludes people at the deep end of the pool. All of these little Edges and Powers may seem like small numbers or even inconsequential comparatively on paper, but holy schnikes, once your character is stacked at Heroic+ levels of Edges, your PC's little bonuses will allow them to drop truly monstrous stuff.

Its hard to eyeball playing baseline SW games. The real eye-opener for me was running Savage Rifts. Where the starting characters are *monstrously* powerful. A starting Rifts character would be like a 150-pt character in SWADE. Beyond the numbers - especially when you start using the Mega Damage rules (which ultimately are already cooked into SWADE - it's just Heavy Weapons people!) you'll start realizing that your Monk with the ability to Hadouken a goblin, could spend a few points to Hadouken the castle-wall into dust. Same damage, different effects. So it's hard to see at ground level.

Costs - I'm a little leery about changing PP costs based on Rank. I'd need to see how you flesh it out. Mainly because SWADE finally (arguably an unnecessary and unwanted design choice) unified their PP-to-AB mechanics. You'd have to figure out how you wanna regulate PP acquisition (PP Edge? Ranking up?) in direct relation to your costs. Not to mention it would require rebalancing the PP costs for the effects based on the Modifiers you can add to your powers. You may end up with less effects and more cost with this system. It's a lot of levers to consider. Granted you could intend this based on your setting assumptions. As a baseline, however, you have a lot of stuff to work out.

TL/DR - don't underestimate how powerful the AB's/Mystic Powers in SWADE/SW Pathfinder already are at higher ranks. There are certainly changes you could make to fit your idea, but consider the other sub-systems those changes will necessarily impact, then adjust from there.

Actually as an aside, I suspected that Heavy Weapons was MDC, as it is in Savage Pathfinder too. So thanks for confirmation.

I am sure you remember Heroic abilities from RQ, which were essentially class abilities, just done in a more fluid manner. Okay, the PP cost is based purely on importing from PF to SP, and I just disliked calling it Mystic Power, so it is more of a flavour thing to be honest.

Now you could easily rename Training, and use the Deadlands Chi Mastery, either would work. It is just a name.

So let's look at PF monk abilities.

In truth many of these abilities would be more akin to Edges, not true powers.

Stunning Fist, is essentially an affliction attack, whether literally creating a shaken condition, fatigued, that kind of thing. Nothing super powerful.

Still Mind would be an edge, you are quite right, but

Slow Fall would be reduction in falling danage, again no big deal.

High Jump, well just import Leap from from Supers 2e.

Purity of Body, immunity to disease as per Supers 2ed too I believe.
Diamond body, immune to poisons. Again both these two are heroic abilities, and not a big deal. However, alternatively way to do these would be Mind-Over-Matter: Cleansing. Such that players get a +1, then +2 if taken again against poisons and diseases.

Wholeness of Body, is Mind-Over-Matter: Healing. Such that a player gets a bonus to heal and recover,+1 should suffice here. I kind of like this meditative aspect as it is more in keeping with being a monk.

You would get a similar thing with Paladin abilities, such that they would be more akin to edges too, just Gifts.

So Detect Evil, would be Sense Evil, such that they get a bonus on their Notice skill, or they make a Spirit check. That kind of thing.

Then those monks that followed an actual magical path, and this where I would use names like Chi Mastery, Enlightenment, or The Way, as they allow access to powers proper. But these are just names and could easily be AB Magic.

 

[tenbones]

So let's look at PF monk abilities.

In truth many of these abilities would be more akin to Edges, not true powers.

Stunning Fist, is essentially an affliction attack, whether literally creating a shaken condition, fatigued, that kind of thing. Nothing super powerful.

Yup! In SW PF 1.3 Stunning Fist is *super* powerful. If a Monk uses Unarmed Strike and scores a Raise he can cause the victim to be Distracted or Vulnerable. This effect occurs even if the opponent takes no damage (you didn't get past their Toughness) OR they Soak it. This is insanely powerful. And it costs nothing and a baseline ability for all Monks. It's not even a Power.

Still Mind would be an edge, you are quite right, but

Slow Fall would be reduction in falling danage, again no big deal.

High Jump, well just import Leap from from Supers 2e.

Making these things discrete abilities would be fine, in your re-worked Monk Framework. You'd have to specify how they operate and how they scale (if at all. Remember 1e Monks could fall from any height as long as they were within 10-ft of a wall? LOL) Otherwise in 1.3 SWPF Monks at Seasoned get Boost Trait (Agility, Athletics, Fighting and Stealth) as a Power, which would cover all of those abilities (Athletics can modify your Jump/Fall distance). So technically it's even more powerful in SWPF because modifying your Fighting is *super* powerful because that impacts your defense (Parry) and your capacity to attack. And Monks already are faster than other folks as their Running Die is one die higher (Mobility ability).

PLUS - they get Deflection, Smite AND Speed as Powers bundled into their Mystic Powers package. That makes Seasoned Monks pretty fucking badass in combat at the start of their career.

Purity of Body, immunity to disease as per Supers 2ed too I believe.
Diamond body, immune to poisons. Again both these two are heroic abilities, and not a big deal. However, alternatively way to do these would be Mind-Over-Matter: Cleansing. Such that players get a +1, then +2 if taken again against poisons and diseases. Wholeness of Body, is Mind-Over-Matter: Healing. Such that a player gets a bonus to heal and recover,+1 should suffice here. I kind of like this meditative aspect as it is more in keeping with being a monk.

Purity of Body - in SWPF 1.3 they don't get immunity to disease and poison per se. But that's because in SW poison and Disease are usually made by making a Vigor check. This could easily be made an ability by allowing Monks to get a bonus to Vigor checks for those conditions specifically.

Yeah I agree with you on your aesthetic about Wholeness of Body.

You would get a similar thing with Paladin abilities, such that they would be more akin to edges too, just Gifts.

So Detect Evil, would be Sense Evil, such that they get a bonus on their Notice skill, or they make a Spirit check. That kind of thing.

Then those monks that followed an actual magical path, and this where I would use names like Chi Mastery, Enlightenment, or The Way, as they allow access to powers proper. But these are just names and could easily be AB Magic.

I plan on blowing out Paladins a bit more by customizing their abilities granted based on their Faith. I never liked that Clerics and Paladins have similar abilities across deities. Sure there should be overlap where it makes sense, but where they don't - they shouldn't.

Yeah the Monk Chi-Mastery thing was well done in Deadlands (if you're trying to emulate the Shaolin concept). I have a couple of ideas I'm going to do in my game where I want my monks to be a little more closer to being another mode of a Paladin - where Paladins are martial aspects of a faith, Monks will exist as mystical (one might argue even more fanatical adherents to their respective paths within a faith) where they have learned mysteries from their God's teachings that cause them eschew the use of weapons and armor (unless it's some iconic thing for their deity) because they believe in their faith of the practice and ideology.

I'm considering using some of the Cyberknight and Mystic Warrior element from Rifts, but toned down.

 

[Rogerdee]

Yup! In SW PF 1.3 Stunning Fist is *super* powerful. If a Monk uses Unarmed Strike and scores a Raise he can cause the victim to be Distracted or Vulnerable. This effect occurs even if the opponent takes no damage (you didn't get past their Toughness) OR they Soak it. This is insanely powerful. And it costs nothing and a baseline ability for all Monks. It's not even a Power.

I saw that, but clearly did not realise how potent it was!

Making these things discrete abilities would be fine, in your re-worked Monk Framework. You'd have to specify how they operate and how they scale (if at all. Remember 1e Monks could fall from any height as long as they were within 10-ft of a wall? LOL)

Cool, thanks. I want the feel of them being like magical edges, but not true powers.

Otherwise in 1.3 SWPF Monks at Seasoned get Boost Trait (Agility, Athletics, Fighting and Stealth) as a Power, which would cover all of those abilities (Athletics can modify your Jump/Fall distance). So technically it's even more powerful in SWPF because modifying your Fighting is *super* powerful because that impacts your defense (Parry) and your capacity to attack. And Monks already are faster than other folks as their Running Die is one die higher (Mobility ability).

PLUS - they get Deflection, Smite AND Speed as Powers bundled into their Mystic Powers package. That makes Seasoned Monks pretty fucking badass in combat at the start of their career.

Yeah, they are powerful with things like Boost. It makes them crazy powerful. I know Fighters can pick Edges when needed, but they seem underpowered next to monks - or am I missing a mechanics aspect?

Purity of Body - in SWPF 1.3 they don't get immunity to disease and poison per se. But that's because in SW poison and Disease are usually made by making a Vigor check. This could easily be made an ability by allowing Monks to get a bonus to Vigor checks for those conditions specifically.

Yeah I agree with you on your aesthetic about Wholeness of Body.

My idea is that because it is vaguely magical it can be done adhoc as needed, do you agree with the +1 or +2? Sort of how Fast Healing gives +2 to Vigour checks three times a week.

I plan on blowing out Paladins a bit more by customizing their abilities granted based on their Faith. I never liked that Clerics and Paladins have similar abilities across deities. Sure there should be overlap where it makes sense, but where they don't - they shouldn't.

Yeah the Monk Chi-Mastery thing was well done in Deadlands (if you're trying to emulate the Shaolin concept). I have a couple of ideas I'm going to do in my game where I want my monks to be a little more closer to being another mode of a Paladin - where Paladins are martial aspects of a faith, Monks will exist as mystical (one might argue even more fanatical adherents to their respective paths within a faith) where they have learned mysteries from their God's teachings that cause them eschew the use of weapons and armor (unless it's some iconic thing for their deity) because they believe in their faith of the practice and ideology.

I'm considering using some of the Cyberknight and Mystic Warrior element from Rifts, but toned down.

It sounds like we're on a similar page here, it is just aesthetics or flavour really.

Looking at other Paladin powers, I thinking of Aura being a low level affliction type effect, such that it can cause people to temporarily have a mental state imposed - but whenever I look at the PF 1e it seems more like a power. Still puzzling that one out.

I absolutely agree Paladin's and Clerics having the same abilities seems a bit pointless. Now if you were to, and to use the PF parlance, multiclass, such that a Cleric was martially orientated, such that they were also a paladin which would work. But I have also have a problem with this, why do we need paladins if we already have Holy / Unholy Champion edge? For me, they're the same thing.

Anyhow. I was even thinking about adding in Warp Spasm (likely a Gift....not sure yet) as I loved Slaine when I younger, and it would make a great Barbarian ability, but cannot quite figure out how to make it work....yet.

 

[tenbones]

I saw that, but clearly did not realise how potent it was!



Cool, thanks. I want the feel of them being like magical edges, but not true powers.



Yeah, they are powerful with things like Boost. It makes them crazy powerful. I know Fighters can pick Edges when needed, but they seem underpowered next to monks - or am I missing a mechanics aspect?

Some very big things to consider about Fighters. First - Armor. While damage will scale, naturally, Armor in PF is pretty beefy.

If we play around with some assumptions and go with a big Tanky kinda fighter in heavy plate with a large shield, that's +4 Armor and +2 Parry. We're already talking about the class where the PC is going to push that Fighting skill *hard*. Monks will never catch up to that without their Mystical abilities (Deflect is a *must*.)

But with that - the Edge selection a Fighter can draw from makes him *insanely* formidable in any arena. With or without Armor.. Sure he doesn't have the sexy mystical powers of a Monk or Paladin - but presumably he's going to have a "schtick", whether its dual-wield, or two-handed heavy-attacks, or sword-n-board, or sexier: Shield and Spear!, all of which are completely competitive in Savage Worlds.

Do *not* underestimate that Shield +2 Parry bonus. If a Fighter wants to stack Parry - at Seasoned, he's a fucking beast. I'm using Seasoned because that's when Monks hit their stride with their Powers, to keep things apples to apples. So a fighter at Seasoned could very well be rocking a d10 Fighting, Block Edge, Feint, Trademark Weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Ambidexterity (If he's human).

this means his Parry will be 10! And he'll be able to rock his sword and a shield-bash without penalty every round. The kick in the nuts is because of Feint, he gets to use his Fighting skill instead of Agility to Taunt his opponent. This puts him at a big advantage, pound for pound.

And we haven't even gotten to his Fighter's Martial Flexibility. With that he can choose to pull whatever Edge he needs to secure an attrition win by forcing Parrys to the Monk, or going balls out and pulling a more offensive Edge like Frenzy or something.

I'm not saying a Monk can't win, I'm saying that a Fighter is super-dangerous in any situation. Even if he was buck naked with the same Edges and a couple of sticks he pulled up from the ground. He could use his Martial Flexibility to choose Improvised Weapon, and still put the ass-beating down with high Parry, and going full-dual-wielding glory. And he STILL gets Block. His Parry will be 8. Not bad for a buck-naked guy with two sticks in his hand.

The Fighter concept is far more rewarding in Savage Pathfinder than it is in d20 3.x because all of the core mechanics and task resolution are discrete from the character mechanics per se. In D&D the classes are their own mini-games where you have various modes of decreasing your opponents HP or forcing them to fail a Save or applying a condition to let you end fights. In Savage Worlds everyone is usually walking around with the same health, and you're mitigating the mathematical functions of task resolution used direction against you.

This is why Savage Worlds flies below the radar. The ebb and flow of combat doesn't happen with a dwindling HP total as much as it happens to Attacks being Parried at the first die-roll, and damage mitigation after. It's faster especially when you consider there is a lot less calculation (once you get the feel for it) and fights end faster and I feel the abstractions for combat are better represented.

YES you can narratively do this in D&D. But I feel the urgency disappears when a 10th level Fighter with 100hp gets swung at by a 5th level Fighter with a regular sword. In SW a Veteran Rank Fighter is probably in no more danger... but because how the system operates... it would be very unwise to believe that.

My idea is that because it is vaguely magical it can be done adhoc as needed, do you agree with the +1 or +2? Sort of how Fast Healing gives +2 to Vigour checks three times a week.

If the assumptions for you are that it's vaguely magical - then just cook it right in there. I'd simply add it to their list of abilities at Seasoned (+1) and it goes to +2 at Veteran.

It sounds like we're on a similar page here, it is just aesthetics or flavour really.

Yep! Savage Worlds is ALL about flavor. You just gotta season those rules to your own liking.

Looking at other Paladin powers, I thinking of Aura being a low level affliction type effect, such that it can cause people to temporarily have a mental state imposed - but whenever I look at the PF 1e it seems more like a power. Still puzzling that one out.

Well... the "What is a Paladin" debate is always a topic for many (not me). I'm fine with making it a power. More importantly, (and I need to give this much more thought when I start gearing up to run SWPF) is "Am I going to rework the whole class?" I might roll such powers into specific Faiths for their Paladins. It's on the list for me to review when the time comes.

I absolutely agree Paladin's and Clerics having the same abilities seems a bit pointless. Now if you were to, and to use the PF parlance, multiclass, such that a Cleric was martially orientated, such that they were also a paladin which would work. But I have also have a problem with this, why do we need paladins if we already have Holy / Unholy Champion edge? For me, they're the same thing.

Anyhow. I was even thinking about adding in Warp Spasm (likely a Gift....not sure yet) as I loved Slaine when I younger, and it would make a great Barbarian ability, but cannot quite figure out how to make it work....yet.

Holy Warrior seems to be something to differentiate the faithful that aren't necessarily Paladin or Clerics (but certainly could be). It's a good option for anyone that wants to be deep into the faith of their PC and get some benefits for it. I'm a GM that my players know if they play a Paladin or Cleric, it's going to be a big deal. I don't do the whole "itinerant" Cleric running around being a party's Healing Battery. Anyone worthy to be invested in by their God means they have WORK to do.

I'd do no less with someone with the (Un)Holy Warrior Edge, heh.