Urban Shadows and the "Gilded Cage"

[Jan Paparazzi]

I don't know how many people are familiar with Urban Shadows and I don't even intend to run the game (certainly not with that ruleset), but I like to mine different books for ideas, so here we go.

In WoD games and especially Vampire certain groups like to infiltrate mortal institutions. White Wolf once made a book about this called the Gilded Cage and I really like this idea about supernaturals influencing the mortal world. I also really like the Circles as presented in the new Urban Shadows 2nd edition book. From what I understand Mortalis (Mortality) mostly operates on the border of the mundane and the occult world, Wild serves alien masters from another realm, Night focuses mostly on territory and it's resources and Power is all about prophecies and politics.

Mortality and Wild are very clear to me. Night and Power I do understand as Night is all about control of the streets and short-term politics and Power is about long-term politics and influencing the future. But I wonder if one Circle would infiltrate academia, the government and the business world which would that be? Night or Power? I mean it fits Power's theme of long-term politics and influence, but it also fits Night's theme of taking control of resources, power, money etc. How did that work in the first edition? Do people have experience with that?

 

[robb]

When I ran it, I used night for supernatural control and hence would default to power for humans.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

When I ran it, I used night for supernatural control and hence would default to power for humans.

You mean if it were monster doing the infiltration it would be Night en if it were mortal mages etc. doing the infiltration it would be Power?
Yeah, you could look at it like that, but I don't find it that appealing. I mean in the narrow sense the factions or circles are like that. Mortals in Mortality, mortals with powers in Power, monsters who used to be mortal in Night and monsters who never were human in Wild.

But in the broader sense each circle (that's what it's called in 2nd edition) is much more than that. They focus on different things. Mortality is aware of the truth of the world—the supernatural exists just beneath the surface— but they keep one foot in the world of the mundane. Quite often they are trafficking resources and conflicts across the border between the two worlds. Night is competing over the resources of the city's streets: territory, blood, and money and is parasitic, corrupting what it can reach in the mundane world.

Power is willing to invest in shaping the city's future. Power dabbles in mortal politics and magical artifacts alike, always eager to find some way to claim more authority. Wild is ruled by the city's most alien residents. Wild most often seek places where the walls of reality are thin, tending to their business in both this plane and the one from which they hail.

I paraphrased a little form the preview I got.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

Alright, I think I got it figured out. Both Night and Power can infiltrate and control mortal institutions, but for different reasons. For Night it's all about their needs. For example vampires need hunting ground for blood. So they want to control their turf for blood and the mortal institutions are mostly used for covering up when the shit hits the fan. For Power it isn't about their needs, but out of some overarching goal they have in mind. It's all about shaping the future or fulfilling some sort of prophecy. Think about a group of seers having a premonition they want to fulfill or maybe prevent.

 

[Malckuss]

I've said it before, but it feels like Urban Shadows, especially what I have seen of the 2nd Edition through the quickstart, are far closer to the style of play classic World of Darkness games espoused as opposed to the way the game actually got played, either via tabletop or LARP through my experience.

I love how the factions system of US2E makes a city feel lived in and real. Even if I were to run another urban fantasy game based on my mechanical preferences, I would would port over the faction system and find some way to use debts, too. They drive so much action.

One of the things I love about the system is that these systems drive the action whether you have active or passive players and that if the players want to advance their characters' abilities, they must engage the factions and move debt around.

 

[robb]

At least in 1e, the player+GM moves are core to making it work so I'm not sure how portable it really is to another system.

 

[zcthu3]

I love how the factions system of US2E makes a city feel lived in and real. Even if I were to run another urban fantasy game based on my mechanical preferences, I would would port over the faction system and find some way to use debts, too. They drive so much action.

One of the things I love about the system is that these systems drive the action whether you have active or passive players and that if the players want to advance their characters' abilities, they must engage the factions and move debt around.

I didn’t use the mechanical aspects of debts, but I used the US2e Faction system in my last season of Liminal. It worked pretty well, hardest thing was deciding where the different factions set in terms of Mortalis, Power, Night and Wild and then the faction attributes.

 

[zcthu3]

At least in 1e, the player+GM moves are core to making it work so I'm not sure how portable it really is to another system.

The Faction system in US2e uses the standard PbtA move structure, but is a down time system which relates primarly to running the factions. You can pretty much bolt it on as is. I think I had to modify some of the player-facing downtime moves, as you don’t have Circles, but from memory I just used the PCs level of relationship status with each faction and it worked okay.

 

[Malckuss]

At least in 1e, the player+GM moves are core to making it work so I'm not sure how portable it really is to another system.

To add to zcthu3's thoughts, the player & GM moves primarily exist to either shirk a debt by ignoring it or to pick up or deepen a debt owed to you, which you spend on rolls to influence said individual, which helps you gain or lose influence with whatever faction they are associated with.

For example, if I wanted to port the systems back into the 20th Anniversary editions of my favorite World of Darkness games, I would allow Social rolls and powers to allow you to shirk a debt if you succeeded on an opposed roll, or you could apply between 1-3 points worth of debt as bonus dice on a roll to influence someone, with success or failure of an entire scheme raising or lowering the Circle they are associated with, and just rip the whole downtime & faction from the US2E quickstart (which is still free, BTW).

Simple and easy.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

I love how the factions system of US2E makes a city feel lived in and real. Even if I were to run another urban fantasy game based on my mechanical preferences, I would would port over the faction system and find some way to use debts, too. They drive so much action.

Even without the mechanics they still make the city feel alive. More so than any other urban game I came across.

 

[The Butcher]

Man, I gotta take a look at US2.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

Man, I gotta take a look at US2.

I was a late backer. I believe some people really soured on it, because they are waiting for years. They ran into big time delay, because of the succes of the Avatar rpg and some people got long covid as well. Anyway it's almost done now, I think I will get a full digital copy early march and then people can skim through it looking for spelling errors and then they are done. I am curious what they did with the two example settings that are in there. I really like the idea of a city fully populated with factions each belonging to four different circles.

 

[Malckuss]

I was a late backer. I believe some people really soured on it, because they are waiting for years. They ran into big time delay, because of the succes of the Avatar rpg and some people got long covid as well. Anyway it's almost done now, I think I will get a full digital copy early march and then people can skim through it looking for spelling errors and then they are done. I am curious what they did with the two example settings that are in there. I really like the idea of a city fully populated with factions each belonging to four different circles.

In the meantime, the QS is still available as PWYW. It hasn't been updated since May of 2022, so I feel it's likely the file will get another update in line with the final book at some point. Based on past experiences, I would say that'll probably be around the time the core book goes live to the public.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

Meanwhile I got an almost full copy of US 2e edition on the 1st of march and the city settings of Chicago and Santiago on the 1st of april. The book is looking good and the settings are fine. They both seem to revolve around a central conflict or situation which all circles are dealing with one way or another. Chicago is all about magical bindings put upon the city, which wizards use to siphon it's power but also woke the city up. Santiago is all about the rise of an ancient vampire.

It's all interesting, but personally I do like a central "situation" like that, but I like it more if the central theme is a bit more vague and if there are more local conflicts or situations (which you could of course add) that are a bit more specific. For example a local situation could be there are a lot of bandits in the area and people are getting robbed and a global situation could be that the world as a whole is in renaissance after a dark period. But not a bad start at all.

 

[Jan Paparazzi]

To be a little bit more clear: The two city settings in the back of the book start with two pages of story, then one page that explains the basic concept of the city, one page about the city then aka in the past, one page the city now or current, one page the city to come or the future, then two pages of each circle and how they respond to the current situation. Each circle gets two npc's and one factions as examples.

The way my brain works is I make connections about how I would this in a sandbox style game. I do like a central theme or conflict, but there is also a danger that if that conflict gets solved the setting is kinda done. The big baddy is beaten and now it's a bit meaningless. So that's why I like to keep the central theme a bit vague and a lot more local conflicts or situations that are happening in specific regions or areas of the game world.

 

[AppleJax]

I wish Urban Shadows had a bigger budget since it's one of the few only urban fantasy ttrpgs still getting support and it isn't shackled to a single canon setting that you get harassed for not worshiping. Unfortunately, the urban fantasy ttrpg market is just too tiny to support more than one game in the genre at a time. Hopefully that will change once big publishers like Paradox and Hasbro finally abandon the market.

 

[zcthu3]

I wish Urban Shadows had a bigger budget since it's one of the few only urban fantasy ttrpgs still getting support and it isn't shackled to a single canon setting that you get harassed for not worshiping. Unfortunately, the urban fantasy ttrpg market is just too tiny to support more than one game in the genre at a time. Hopefully that will change once big publishers like Paradox and Hasbro finally abandon the market.

There’s also Liminal which, while defaults to the UK, can be used for any urban fantasy city (the core book includes mini-settings in Germany and the USA).

 

[AppleJax]

There’s also Liminal which, while defaults to the UK, can be used for any urban fantasy city (the core book includes mini-settings in Germany and the USA).

Not really in the same category. Urban Shadow’s setting is very sketchy (e.g. it says vampires can eat flesh, blood or emotions but doesn’t explain how this works), whereas Liminal has a fairly detailed setting with firm rules for how things work. Vampires follow Buffy rules, aside from a minority of dhampirs who retain their souls just because. Werewolves have no ties to the moon and are created by a ritual only alphas know. Ghosts are not playable and are just soulless echoes of past events rather than restless souls stuck on Earth (a conceit taken from modern pseudoscientific parapsychology with no basis in folklore or spiritualism). Etc.

 

[Malckuss]

Not really in the same category. Urban Shadow’s setting is very sketchy (e.g. it says vampires can eat flesh, blood or emotions but doesn’t explain how this works), whereas Liminal has a fairly detailed setting with firm rules for how things work. Vampires follow Buffy rules, aside from a minority of dhampirs who retain their souls just because. Werewolves have no ties to the moon and are created by a ritual only alphas know. Ghosts are not playable and are just soulless echoes of past events rather than restless souls stuck on Earth (a conceit taken from modern pseudoscientific parapsychology with no basis in folklore or spiritualism). Etc.

I bought Liminal and found it wanting. I was hoping for something closer to Dresden Files. I guess I could always append Dresden Files' stunt system for supernaturals onto Liminal's system framework.

 

[zcthu3]

Not really in the same category. Urban Shadow’s setting is very sketchy (e.g. it says vampires can eat flesh, blood or emotions but doesn’t explain how this works), whereas Liminal has a fairly detailed setting with firm rules for how things work. Vampires follow Buffy rules, aside from a minority of dhampirs who retain their souls just because. Werewolves have no ties to the moon and are created by a ritual only alphas know. Ghosts are not playable and are just soulless echoes of past events rather than restless souls stuck on Earth (a conceit taken from modern pseudoscientific parapsychology with no basis in folklore or spiritualism). Etc.

Ah, I see. You’re more after a game which can be tweaked to flavour rather than a generic urban fantasy game? I’d suggest you can ‘build your own’ supernatural in Liminal but agree there is a default, if generic, setting.

 

[zcthu3]

I bought Liminal and found it wanting. I was hoping for something closer to Dresden Files. I guess I could always append Dresden Files' stunt system for supernaturals onto Liminal's system framework.

Fair enough. We found it suited our group.

 

[AppleJax]

Ah, I see. You’re more after a game which can be tweaked to flavour rather than a generic urban fantasy game? I’d suggest you can ‘build your own’ supernatural in Liminal but agree there is a default, if generic, setting.

For me personally, it’s to avoid the toxic dogmatic fandumb that inevitably accumulates around singular canons. Cries like “You’re ruining the lore!” whenever I present an idea is an instant turnoff to me.

 

[Lessa]

Ah, I see. You’re more after a game which can be tweaked to flavour rather than a generic urban fantasy game?

Isn't Urban Shadow already like that? I don't remember it well, but most pbta present settings in broad brushstrokes with intentional gaps in place, for the group to fill on their own.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Not really in the same category. Urban Shadow’s setting is very sketchy (e.g. it says vampires can eat flesh, blood or emotions but doesn’t explain how this works), whereas Liminal has a fairly detailed setting with firm rules for how things work. Vampires follow Buffy rules, aside from a minority of dhampirs who retain their souls just because. Werewolves have no ties to the moon and are created by a ritual only alphas know. Ghosts are not playable and are just soulless echoes of past events rather than restless souls stuck on Earth (a conceit taken from modern pseudoscientific parapsychology with no basis in folklore or spiritualism). Etc.

Human(ish) might be more what you're after in terms of a supernatural toolkit.

 

[AppleJax]

I’ve read Human(ish) and it’s not what I’m looking for. It’s not a toolkit. It has several pre-made options, similar to Liminal.

Quite frankly, there’s really nothing I’ve found that has everything I’m looking for in a game of this type.

Urban Shadows has bare bones support and I’m still trying to wrap my head around PbtA design because it’s just so… alien compared to anything I’m previously familiar with. I simply cannot understand the concept of moves and it feels like an excessively gamist concept akin to how old school point and click adventure games had long lists of verbs for interacting. As far as I can understand it, it’s less of a toolkit like GURPS and more of a… vaguekit? How the nitty gritty works is basically irrelevant because play occurs on a scene-to-scene basis rather than a turn-by-turn basis as in traditional rpgs. It’s nice to be able to share ideas on the discord without fighting the game mechanics or being attacked as a heretic, but it still hasn’t clicked with me.

Whistlepunk Games’ Feed rpg has been very easy for me to understand, it’s pretty much the best I’ve found (aside from perhaps Vampire City and Night’s Black Agents), but it’s a throwaway indie game from 2013 with no community. I can’t find anyone who’d be interested in playing. It’s released under creative commons but still has no community. I have a number of ideas for strains (it’s a toolkit that lets invent your own vampire settings) but no interest in detailing them because who would read it anyway?

NightShift, Esoteric Enterprises, Sigil & Shadow, Nightcrawlers… who has even heard of these games?

Medieval fantasy like D&D or Pathfinder sucks up most gamers so there’s basically nobody left for any other genre. The tiny community of players and GMs who would be interested is fractured by the lack of any kind of OGL, and WotC’s recent controversy has basically killed the idea of using an open license…

There’s 90s games like Nightlife, Everlasting, Nephilim, Fireborn etc but they’re dead and locked in stupid copyright jail. Every new urban fantasy game has to reinvent the wheel and ice skate uphill. It’s so frustrating

I like having multiple settings and toolkits, like what GURPS or D&D does. A pre-made setting is useful when I want to get straight to playing with minimal setup. A toolkit is good when I want to do something else. A community is great because it provides players, GMs, and homebrew. An OGL is great because… you get the idea.

At this point, that headache is too much. I’m gonna try crpgs instead. They sacrifice theater of the mind, but they’re much easier to get into. Oh wait, there aren’t urban fantasy crpgs.

 

[Lessa]

As far as I can understand it, [Urban Shadows] is less of a toolkit like GURPS and more of a… vaguekit?

"Improvkit" is how I'd call it. Pbta gives players (genre) prompts and expects them to riff off of it. This is true on all levels, from first session brainstorm where the group fills-in the setting's gaps with whatever they find interesting to scene level where moves do it through options for players to pick and improv upon. It's not to everyones tastes, and even fans probably won't want the experience every time (at least I don't, sometimes I want a good ol' dungeon crawl or trad sandbox, for eg). That said, I know very little about Urban Shadows and could be saying a lot of bullsh*t LOL, so take this with a grain of salt.

At this point, that headache is too much. I'm gonna try crpgs instead. They sacrifice theater of the mind, but they're much easier to get into. Oh wait, there aren't urban fantasy crpgs.

You mean you never played Vampire Bloodlines on PC? Oh boy, you totally should.

Also, The Council, if you can tolerate a rushed final chapter marring an otherwise great game.

And Persona series. Both the 5th installment (avoid Royal if you want a challenge) or the newest, 3rd installment remake are good to great if you can tolerate bad dialogue.

Or try Pathologic for great dialogue and atmosphere but miserable (in a good way?) experience.

Edit: maybe Control can also scratch that itch depending on how you look at it.

 

[AppleJax]

You mean you never played Vampire Bloodlines on PC? Oh boy, you totally should.

I did about two decades ago. There hasn’t been anything in the genre since.

When I say “urban fantasy”, I mean that it takes place in modern times and features classic halloween monsters like vampires, werewolves, witches and so on.

None of those examples you list fit the bill

 

[NinjaWeasel]

I did about two decades ago. There hasn’t been anything in the genre since.

Bloodlines 2 is supposed to be out on PC later this year.

 

[AppleJax]

Bloodlines 2 is supposed to be out on PC later this year.

Everyone knows that will be a disaster. Made by a completely different and inexperienced team, none of the charm or tone of the original, financed as a cheap cash grab by a publisher that has no clue what to do with the IP... Maybe that would've worked in 2008, but now fans don't accept in-name-only products anymore. Fallout 3 might have succeeded, but Dawn of War 3 bombed hard.

With any luck, the success of Baldur's Gate 3 will convince more devs to make original crpgs and hopefully at least some of those will be urban fantasy.

 

[NinjaWeasel]

Regardless of how it turns out, cash grab or not, it's been in development for at least 5 years and that means it's most definitely not cheap.

 

[NinjaWeasel]

Meanwhile I got an almost full copy of US 2e edition on the 1st of march and the city settings of Chicago and Santiago on the 1st of april.

Has there been any indication of when this is likely to get released? Is it close to the final version being sent out to the KS backers even? I was interested in picking it up at one point and still might.

 

[AppleJax]

The problem with US is that Magpie doesn’t give it a budget, since it’s not a hot license like Avatar.

I would suggest that they release a video game adaptation to advertise the tabletop. It doesn’t need to be perfect, it just needs to be at least as good as the Santa Monica arc in Bloodlines 1.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Regardless of how it turns out, cash grab or not, it's been in development for at least 5 years and that means it's most definitely not cheap.

I don't think The Chinese Room, which is the game studio now working on Bloodlines 2, has been working on it for 5 years. The previous studio Hardsuit Labs was fired by Paradox, due to not meeting deadlines I believe.
The Chinese Room when took over, but as far as I understand they more or less started from scratch. They're probably reusing some of the art asset since they haven't changed the city, which is Seattle, the game takes place in.

 

[AppleJax]

I’m sorry for steering the thread off topic. Let’s try to keep it on topic.

 

[Hornblower]

Use Shiver

 

[AppleJax]

Use Shiver

Urban fantasy isn’t the same as horror. They both feature cryptids and mythical creatures, but in urban fantasy this is considered wondrous whereas in horror they’re all trying to kill you.

 

[Lessa]

I did about two decades ago. There hasn’t been anything in the genre since.

When I say “urban fantasy”, I mean that it takes place in modern times and features classic halloween monsters like vampires, werewolves, witches and so on.

None of those examples you list fit the bill

Urban Fantasy can actually be wider than you imply above. That said, if you want classic elements like vamps and witches, how about the recent Vampyr, the Shadowrun videogames (there are old and new ones - I recommend the Genesis') or that cool vampire cyberpunk one from the 90s? Edit: BloodNet , crazy stuff XD

Back to TTRPGs, have you look at City of Mist? I personally don't like it, and it's not pure urban fantasy as it also has supers and noir elements, but it seems a well-thought out premise. Maybe worth a look.

 

[AppleJax]

I'm gonna coin a new genre name to avoid confusion. I'm looking for what I can only describe as Anita Blake-ian/Harry Dresden-ian Fiction. Urban Shadows is an example of this.

Also, this isn't really the thread to talk about video games

 

[Malckuss]

I've seen the 'final' PDF of Urban Shadows. Gorgeous art. I have said it before, I enjoy playing PbtA; my buddy Greg runs a great game of PbtA, but I will never run it. I might be able to adapt the whole thing to FitD, maybe with a touch of the original Dresden Files RPG. I think I might use a broadly applicable supers system, Mythic d6, or OVA.