If you had to choose one edition of D&D....

[James Gillen]

This thing already exists, it's called Hero System

What I said.

JG

 

[Teyrnon]

In the end, it doesn't matter for today's D&D, which is IMO much more influenced by contemporary authors. See tiefling PCs for an example we recently mentioned!

Half demons are a trend among contemporary fantasy authors? Or would that be Demidemons?

 

[TristramEvans]

Half demons are a trend among contemporary fantasy authors?

sure...

 

[Teyrnon]

sure...

Ah, I failed to consider paranormal romance and monster erotica...

 

[Chris Brady]

Ah, I failed to consider paranormal romance and monster erotica...

It's most DEFINITELY Fantasy.

 

[TristramEvans]

Puttin' the Double D's in D&D!

 

[AsenRG]

Half demons are a trend among contemporary fantasy authors? Or would that be Demidemons?

Yeah...what TristramEvans said!

Oh wait, those are erotica/romance? Not what I meant.

 

[Brock Savage]

I agree with Baulderstone concerning Tolkien's influence on D&D.

Gygax speaks about the influences on D&D in a mega Q&A thread at ENWorld and at several points he mentions how Tolkien was not an influence. It's a lot of material to plough through and most of the conversation is quite dull but a relevant exchange is on this page. I'll summarize for people who don't want to hunt for it.

Someone asks Gary Gygax:

In Appendix N (inspirational reading) of the 1e DMG, you write:

"The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH [Howard], Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL [Lovecraft], and A. Merritt."

In listing the primary authors that influenced the AD&D game, you left out J.R.R. Tolkien (you put him in a much larger list of sources of fantasy but did not include him among the 'most immediate influences'). As many people (erroneously) consider D&D to be a rather close copy of Tolkien's world, leaving out Tolkien seems conspicuous.

Is there any particular reason you didn't single out Tolkien as one of the major influences on AD&D?

Gary's reply:

I omitted JRRT's work as a primary one because it didn't inspire me in regards to gaming, to create the material in A/D&D that made it what it is at its core. While I enjoyed THE HOBBIT, the trilogy was not an exciting read for me.

The listed authors and works were what moved me to want to design a game that allowed participants to have exciting fantasy adventures. The "influences" from JRRT's work that I included in the game were mainly there to interest others in playing it, not what caused me to want to create it

 

[EmperorNorton]

I find the argument that because of his age that Gygax was more likely inspired more by earlier works a weird one. Considering he was still only like 16-17 when LotR was published, and was in his 20s during the 60s when it became a fad in the US.

I'm especially confused by the argument of his age being a factor in him not being inspired by LotR because Dying Earth was published only a few years before LotR and is clearly an inspiration.

Whether he was inspired a lot by LotR is up for argument, but I don't think his age is a factor in that argument.

 

[CRKrueger]

Halfings were originally called Hobbits for Crom's sake, and even broke down into Hairfoot, Stout, and Tallfellow to match Harfoots, Stoors and Fallowhides. Grey Elves, High Elves and Wood Elves to match Noldor, Sindar and Sylvan. Hell, even Mountain and Hill Dwarves you could argue are Thorin's line vs. other dwarves. Orcs, Half-Orcs, Goblins, Treants.

It's clear, AD&D was designed to allow you to play Tolkien fantasy if you wanted. The idea any of this was accidental is ridiculous bullshit. It's also possible to look at Three Hearts and Three Lions and see what Gygax cribbed from there, as well as from Vance, Leiber, etc.

Gygax's desire to deny Tolkien's influence didn't have anything to do with his deep moral failures, or any other idiotic made up character flaw. It was to keep Saul Zaentz from suing TSR out of business, period.

However, if you look at the World of Greyhawk, and you look at what Gary actually ran, there's very little Tolkien in those worlds. It's much more Howard/Lieber in scope.

If anything, I'd say AD&D has more of the soul of the non-Tolkien authors, with the addition of Tolkien elements because of his popularity.

EDIT: Or as Brock Savage quoted Gary: "The "influences" from JRRT's work that I included in the game were mainly there to interest others in playing it, not what caused me to want to create it."

So the difference is whether you define "influence" as:
1. AD&D containing obvious Tolkien content
2. Gary being inspired to create AD&D based on his reading of Tolkien

 

[AsenRG]

I meant Dante, Vergil and Nero from Devil May Cry*, Rachel from Ninja Gaiden (and DoA5: LR...I've kicked her so many times), Adam and Cordelia from Buffy, Satana (Marvel), Vampirella (daughter of Lillith, anyone?), Cole Turner from Charmed, Inuyasha from Inuyasha, Hellboy, Morrigan from Darkstalkers, DC's Raven...
And mind you, those are the relatively well-written ones, IMO.
Then we can get to The Half-Demon Rogue Trilogy by a certain D.N. Erikson...currently sold on Amazon. I suspect there's a reason I've never heard about it.
Or how about Demons Not Included (Night Tracker #1) by Cheyenne McCray?
The list can go on and on. Basically, I tend to skip most book where the main character is half-demon, unless I get a recommendation I trust (or at least makes it sound interesting). But lately I've been noticing more and more of those!

*Yeah, technically not fantasy book, but tell the fans it's somehow not a good character... Or, on second thought: don't, it might be unhealthy.

 

[Voros]

I agree with Baulderstone concerning Tolkien's influence on D&D.

Gygax speaks about the influences on D&D in a mega Q&A thread at ENWorld and at several points he mentions how Tolkien was not an influence. It's a lot of material to plough through and most of the conversation is quite dull but a relevant exchange is on this page. I'll summarize for people who don't want to hunt for it.

Someone asks Gary Gygax:



Gary's reply:

Gygax has a lot of motivation to disclaim any Tolkien influence, after all TSR had to remove a lot of Tolkien’s IP after being threatened with legal action by the Tolkien estate, that is why we have ‘halfings’ instead of hobbits and ‘treants’ instead of ents, etc.

Gygax also downplayed Arneson’s contribution to the game and made many claims about TSR’s business dealing that have been proven false by the facts since.

This is the reason historians like Peterson and journalists like Dewalt have wisely learned to not take anyone’s claims as gospel.

I’m not claiming Tolkien was the sole inspiration for D&D, merely a major source of its tropes.

And the most likely inspiration for AD&D seems to have been to deny Arneson royalty payments.

 

[3rik]

I don't care where Gygax got his demihumans from. I just think halflings are annoying and silly. Who would ever want to play a halfling? Not all that fond of dwarves and elves either, but those are easier to put a spin on that would make them more interesting and less annoying. I'm not sure I could come up with anything like that for halflings. I do like gnomes, but only the foresty type.

 

[Brock Savage]

Gygax has a lot of motivation to disclaim any Tolkien influence, after TSR had to remove a lot of Tolkien’s IP after being threatened with legal action by the Tolkien estate, just as he downplayed Arneson’s contribution and made many claims about TSR’s business dealing that have been proven false by the facts since.

This is the reason historians like Peterson and journalists like Dewalt have wisely learned to not take anyone’s claims as gospel.

I’m not claiming Tolkien was the sole inspiration for D&D, merely a major source of its tropes.

The most likely inspiration for AD&D seems to have been to deny Arneson royalty payments.

As far as I can tell, Gary Gygax was never on record as being a big fan of Tolkien. While I concede the distant possibility that Gygax is lying and covering his tracks for 30 years after the 1977 C&D, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence to the contrary. Hell, the default mode of D&D at the time was a very pulpy "amoral treasure hunters seeking fortune" and not a noble band united to save the world from evil.

That all being said, I agree that other players took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien. Gygax knew his audience and included stuff to draw in a crowd for his game.

Anyway, I just wanted to say my piece and it's not worth fighting over.

Edited for spelling

 

[AsenRG]

As far as I can tell, Gary Gygax was never on record as being a big fan of Tolkien. While I concede the distant possibility that Gygax is lying and covering his tracks for 30 years after the 1977 C&D, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence to the contrary. Hell, the default mode of D&D at the time was a very pulpy "amoral treasure hunters seeking fortune" and not a noble band united to save the world from evil.

That all being said, I agree that other players took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien. Gygax knew his audience and included stuff to draw in a crowd for his game.

Edited for spelling

That's exactly how I suspect it has gone, too. Though all any of us has is a "best guess", unless they were there and had telepathy!

And, as stated before, contemporary fantasy is quite different either way!

 

[3rik]

I like Halfings. If one wants a different take on them check out Dark Sun and Birthright, both pretty cool I think. And let's be honest, despite Gygax's retroactive claims, I doubt there'd even be D&D without The Hobbit or LotR.

I wasn't familiar with those settings and took a look at Dark Sun halflings. From the brief description it seemed like the only thing those halfings have in common with what most people think of when they think of halflings is their name. It would be better to rename that race IMHO.

 

[CRKrueger]

Gygax has a lot of motivation to disclaim any Tolkien influence, after all TSR had to remove a lot of Tolkien’s IP after being threatened with legal action by the Tolkien estate, that is why we have ‘halfings’ instead of hobbits and ‘treants’ instead of ents, etc.

Gygax also downplayed Arneson’s contribution to the game and made many claims about TSR’s business dealing that have been proven false by the facts since.

This is the reason historians like Peterson and journalists like Dewalt have wisely learned to not take anyone’s claims as gospel.

I’m not claiming Tolkien was the sole inspiration for D&D, merely a major source of its tropes.

And the most likely inspiration for AD&D seems to have been to deny Arneson royalty payments.

Yes, yes, Gygax bad...liar, cheat, thief, ad infinitum, ad nauseum...we get it, thread after thread any time the name comes up, we get it. His influence diminished and waning, his name besmirched and scandalized, anyone who ever liked the guy a nostalgic, talmudic nutcase. We understand. K&KA is mean.

 

[Chris Brady]

I wasn't familiar with those settings and took a look at Dark Sun halflings. From the brief description it seemed like the only thing those halfings have in common with what most people think of when they think of halflings is their name. It would be better to rename that race IMHO.

You would be wrong. They have the same heights, weight and other biological factors that people assume are Halflings.

 

[AsenRG]

Yes, yes, Gygax bad...liar, cheat, thief, ad infinitum, ad nauseum...we get it, thread after thread any time the name comes up, we get it. His influence diminished and waning, his name besmirched and scandalized, anyone who ever liked the guy a nostalgic, talmudic nutcase. We understand. K&KA is mean.

WTF R K&KA?
Duckduckgo told me Knights & Knaves Alehouse. Is that correct, and if so, what does it have to do with Voros ?

 

[Ladybird]

I just think halflings are annoying and silly. Who would ever want to play a halfling?

Tief lings best lings.

 

[CRKrueger]

You would be wrong. They have the same heights, weight and other biological factors that people assume are Halflings.

Biological factors, like...
No infravision?
Not being divided into Hairfoots, Stouts and Tallfellows?
Being of perfect human proportion in peak physical condition?
Having a completely different language and culture?


100% provably wrong.
I am Jack Vance's total lack of surprise.

 

[CRKrueger]

WTF R K&KA?
Duckduckgo told me Knights & Knaves Alehouse. Is that correct, and if so, what does it have to do with Voros ?

They're the home of the Talmudic Gygaxian Papist Taliban. The one thing upon which Voros and Pundit agree, I think.

 

[AsenRG]

They're the home of the Talmudic Gygaxian Papist Taliban.

So...they're disputing who's the true Gygaxian prophet, and dislike Arneson?

 

[robertsconley]

My impression after reading Gygax's replies along with the books written and documentation unearthed in recent years is that Gygax wasn't a fan of LOTR personally but worked it in because many of his players liked LOTR and to keep the Greyhawk campaign fresh.

Undoubtedly

They are in a forest next session what I could put in there? Oh yeah Ents from Tolkien that would work along with ......

 

[AsenRG]

My impression after reading Gygax's replies along with the books written and documentation unearthed in recent years is that Gygax wasn't a fan of LOTR personally but worked it in because many of his players liked LOTR and to keep the Greyhawk campaign fresh.

Undoubtedly

"Along with bears...or maybe giant bugs?
Hey, how about we make it a two-in-one?"

 

[robertsconley]

They're the home of the Talmudic Gygaxian Papist Taliban. The one thing upon which Voros and Pundit agree, I think.

(rolling eyes)
Well if you go to their to shit on Gygax and AD&D they are going to have a few choice words.

The reason the Pundit got into it is because the dustup between him and Stuart Marshall. Stuart pissed off the Pundit by chiming in with an insult in the middle of a thread where the Pundit was complaining about the early OSR and why nobody was buying Forward the Adventure!.

Not sure what Voros deal is.

I am aware of several forums that features fans of Gygax, Arneson, and discussion of the minutiae of the origins of roleplaying and D&D. They all keep to themselves and quite happy with their corner of the internet. And couldn't care less about what the rest of the hobby think of them.

What I find if one listens and is polite, you will learn a thing or two from these places.

 

[Voros]

Yes, yes, Gygax bad...liar, cheat, thief, ad infinitum, ad nauseum...we get it, thread after thread any time the name comes up, we get it. His influence diminished and waning, his name besmirched and scandalized, anyone who ever liked the guy a nostalgic, talmudic nutcase. We understand. K&KA is mean.

Please, these are facts. We've had decades of partisan half truths peddled online, nothing the matter with correcting the record when those half truths are brought up.

And you well know I praise Gygax for his excellent modules and imaginative spells, monsters and magic items.

Seems you are the one peddling an inability to seperate criticism of the man and appreciation for his work. Sounds familiar.

 

[Dammit Victor]

Puttin' the Double D's in D&D!

Hell, I been wanting to put the D into D&D since I first saw the Thief illustration in the Rules Cyclopedia.

 

[James Gillen]

Gygax's desire to deny Tolkien's influence didn't have anything to do with his deep moral failures, or any other idiotic made up character flaw. It was to keep Saul Zaentz from suing TSR out of business, period.

Saul Zaentz is the guy who said John Fogerty didn't have the rights to his OWN songs, so yeah.

JG

 

[CRKrueger]

Oh please, Voros. You’re not Deep Throat bringing down the Nixon Administration. The guy’s been dead since Bush was president.

Take two seconds to read the Gail Gygax thread...
No money in Gygax’s name.
No one would pay for a Greyhawk game.

Look at this thread...
Gygax stole all the ideas from Arneson and then tried to cheat him out of it.

Other thread not long ago...
Gygax was as disliked as Williams.
Gygax was the destroyer of TSR (from Hollywood no less) and the Blume Brothers were saviours.

Etc. Etc.

Was “Corporate Gary” different from “GM Gary”? All indications are, he was. Let’s put you in charge of a company like that and see you defy what all your lawyers and accountants are telling you.

Is it time for an Arneson Renaissance? It sure is, but it doesn’t have to be done by burning Gygax in effigy for sins imagined as well as real.

 

[Voros]

As far as I can tell, Gary Gygax was never on record as being a big fan of Tolkien. While I concede the distant possibility that Gygax is lying and covering his tracks for 30 years after the 1977 C&D, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence to the contrary. Hell, the default mode of D&D at the time was a very pulpy "amoral treasure hunters seeking fortune" and not a noble band united to save the world from evil.

That all being said, I agree that other players took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien. Gygax knew his audience and included stuff to draw in a crowd for his game.

Anyway, I just wanted to say my piece and it's not worth fighting over.

Edited for spelling

I don't consider this fighting, sorry if I came off as aggros to you, just presenting my view and what I think backs those views up. No hard feelings.

If you're interested in reading a balanced and detailed history on early D&D I'd suggest reading Peterson's Playing at the World for a thorough historical background of the roots of the game and Dewalt's Of Dice and Men for a more journalistic account of TSR. Both reinforce that Gygax is not the final or even most reliable word on the roots of the game. Too much ego and money was at stake.

 

[Ronin]

I like Halfings. If one wants a different take on them check out Dark Sun and Birthright, both pretty cool I think. And let's be honest, despite Gygax's retroactive claims, I doubt there'd even be D&D without The Hobbit or LotR.

I like halflings as well. I ran a memorable campaign that two of the players had halfling brothers that were barbarians, that dressed and spoke like old timey strongmen. Complete with leopard skin singlets, and handle bar mustaches.

 

[Raleel]

I'm surprised there's not (an official) new Gamma World based on 5e.

I liked the 4e one a lot.

 

[Chris Brady]

My impression after reading Gygax's replies along with the books written and documentation unearthed in recent years is that Gygax wasn't a fan of LOTR personally but worked it in because many of his players liked LOTR and to keep the Greyhawk campaign fresh.

Undoubtedly

That is what Gronan once mentioned. Gygax was seemingly badgered into allowing Elves, Dwarfs and Hobbits into the game at the insistence of the players at the time.

 

[Voros]

Not sure what Voros deal is.

Well I didn't even mention K&KA, don't believe I have even mentioned them once on the Pub. I post occasionally on DF and there are some posters there with a good sense of humour.

I think K&KA's poor reputation was tied to their hilariously reactionary 'Fuck the OSR' thread but that is rapdily becoming as distant a memory as the Forgewars.

 

[robertsconley]

Shoot me down for saying this but the situation over Gygax and Arneson is nuanced. It not a simply a of case Gygax is a greedy lair out to steal money from Dave Arneson when D&D hit it big.

From reading Dave Arneson's True Genius by Kuntz, Playing at the World by Peterson, Hawk & Moor by Kent, the lawsuit documentation and other sources. My opinion that the situation was much more mundane.

Basically after TSR was started and Arneson and other Twin Cities gamers joined the company there was a clash of work ethics. I seen this before in small companies that I have dealt with over the years and the result is rarely pretty and it hard to untangle who did and what.

Irregardless of the specific it resulted in Dave, and bunch of Lake Geneva and Twin City gamers leaving company including Rob Kuntz. Leaving bitterness and resentment on both sides. Enough so that Gygax acted wrongly in regards to the royalties of AD&D. Which just deepened and continued the resentment.

My conclusion is that the reason was part greed and Gygax's feeling that Arneson didn't deserve the royalties given the relative work the two put in.

It easy to think at that time Gygax was some villain out to gather all the money to himself. In the decades I been working with small companies I find that to be rare. Usually there is a reason. Still doesn't make what Gygax did right but it does put into context. I glad Dave Arneson won his lawsuits. Without running the Blackmoor Dungeon in Lake Geneva, Gygax would not have written D&D. And while Gary did the writing the two collaborated on the rules like they did in their previous projects like Don't Give up the Ship.

 

[Voros]

So...they're disputing who's the true Gygaxian prophet, and dislike Arneson?

There often seems as if there are as many splinters to the Old School as there are to Protestantism with a forum for each one. I don't believe there is one that is explictly pro-Arneson, but perhaps the pro OD&D board has more Arneson partisans than any other.

 

[robertsconley]

Well I didn't even mention K&KA, don't believe I have even mentioned them once on the Pub. I post occasionally on DF and there are some posters there with a good sense of humour.

Ah that make sense given what I remember about your posts. So given that what the CK's deal in mentioning you in the same breath as the Pundit. You don't have to answer that.

I think K&KA's poor reputation was tied to their hilariously reactionary 'Fuck the OSR' thread but that is rapdily becoming as distant a memory as the Forgewars.

Yeah there are more than a few groups within the hobby that plays, publishes, and promotes classic editions of D&D that proudly proclaim "fuck the OSR" or "I am not part of the OSR." Like there is somebody going around stamping OSR in indelible ink on the back of people's hands.

 

[robertsconley]

There often seems as if there are as many splinters to the Old School as there are to Protestantism with a forum for each one. I don't believe there is one that is explictly pro-Arneson, but perhaps the pro OD&D board has more Arneson partisans than any other.

The OD&D discussion forum definitely has a pro-Arneson faction. However there is also the Comeback Inn Forum

The Comeback Inn

blackmoor.mystara.net

 

[Brock Savage]

I don't consider this fighting, sorry if I came off as aggros to you, just presenting my view and what I think backs those views up. No hard feelings.

No worries. I was being overly cautious because the subject is surprisingly contentious.

If you're interested in reading a balanced and detailed history on early D&D I'd suggest reading Peterson's Playing at the World for a thorough historical background of the roots of the game and Dewalt's Of Dice and Men for a more journalistic account of TSR. Both reinforce that Gygax is not the final or even most reliable word on the roots of the game. Too much ego and money was at stake.

I just picked up Playing at the World and will take a look when I have more time.

That is what Gronan once mentioned. Gygax was seemingly badgered into allowing Elves, Dwarfs and Hobbits into the game at the insistence of the players at the time.

In the Q&A thread I posted earlier, Gygax said he pressured by an associate to include psionics in AD&D.