nuTSR/Wonderfilled? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Black Leaf said:
That kinda ties into the point I made earlier about his loved ones needing to get him away from LaNasa for his own good. Ernie does seem a) not very bright and b) to have some pretty serious issues. So I can actually believe he's being manipulated into getting into all this controversy, where what he really needs is to be off social media entirely and some professional help.
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Absolutely, I get the impression that he's in some sort of crisis right now. Calm, rational people who are in control of themselves and are on an even emotional keel generally do better at answering direct questions or keeping conversations on-topic.
 
Warthur said:
Absolutely, I get the impression that he's in some sort of crisis right now. Calm, rational people who are in control of themselves and are on an even emotional keel generally do better at answering direct questions or keeping conversations on-topic.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I don't think it's a crisis. Ernie on social media tends to shoot from the hip, and sometimes ends up shooting himself in the hip. He's been like that for over a decade--I think of the people who want to scream "Too much Information" back at somebody.
 
JRT said:
Okay, this is going way too far. That's pretty much armchair psychology and your statement is akin to "Have you stopped beating your wife?" You're making libelous assumptions based on your opinion that Gary Gygax was misogynistic.

Just stop that...that is way too close to "politics" here, and I've appreciated the fact that this place is one of the few places where we didn't get into that crap.
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We are discussing this and will be talking about it sooner rather than later.
 
JRT said:
Though I may have spoken too soon...




If anything, WoTC has been very quiet about the whole thing...this is forcing them into a response.
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But... they're not TSR. They just aren't.

This isn't like D&D (Ironically), where folk say "this edition isn't D&D" but what they're really meaning is "this doesn't feel like D&D to me and it doesn't do the things I like in my D&D" but ultimately it's been put out by the owners of D&D and they're the ones who get to state what is and isn't.

They picked up the TSR trademark because the company previously actively using it didn't file a document in time. That's a fact. They've got no legal or moral rights to anything the original TSR did because either they were just employees originally (And thus have already long-since been recompensed for that work), or their parents sold off the rights they could potentially have inherited. They've got no products of their own and even the schedule for putting anything out is vague at best. At best they're IP squatting, at worst there's a scam being ran (And the victims and masterminds may well both be part of the company).
 
Brock Savage said:
I took at peak at a popular RPG message board and was shocked at the hysterical overreaction, dogpiling, and sheer hatred over this nuTSR thing. It was nuts, like a madhouse. I came running back to the Pub with my tail between my legs.
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On a similar note, the fallout from this whole mess has driven me to scramble my login at one major site to avoid getting myself into trouble.
 
Brock Savage said:
That guy is classy with a capital "K".



Hey @Dammit Viktor Do you have any proof that Gygax was "outspokenly racist and sexist by the standards of the 1970s"? Please do not take my questioning as a personal attack or challenge to your character but those are serious allegations which are often levelled at others based on flimsy evidence.

To the mods I don't think this conversation qualifies as "political"; but it is certainly contentious. If you disagree and the line of conversation is against the Pub rules feel free to delete.
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Mod: As mentioned by Endless, this is currently being discussed. Just generally, I'd ask everyone to hold off just for a day or so while that's happening.
 
CRKrueger said:
I would have bought them if they were the good version.
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I did buy them as a combination of ''found good deals on them', 'never had the 95 versions,' and a present to myself for finishing my Ph.D. It may have been a good investment, seeing as there's a PHB at a Half Price Books near me that's running for $150.
 
Ladybird said:
But... they're not TSR. They just aren't.

This isn't like D&D (Ironically), where folk say "this edition isn't D&D" but what they're really meaning is "this doesn't feel like D&D to me and it doesn't do the things I like in my D&D" but ultimately it's been put out by the owners of D&D and they're the ones who get to state what is and isn't.

They picked up the TSR trademark because the company previously actively using it didn't file a document in time. That's a fact. They've got no legal or moral rights to anything the original TSR did because either they were just employees originally (And thus have already long-since been recompensed for that work), or their parents sold off the rights they could potentially have inherited. They've got no products of their own and even the schedule for putting anything out is vague at best. At best they're IP squatting, at worst there's a scam being ran (And the victims and masterminds may well both be part of the company).
Click to expand...
From what I can tell, it's not even legal/moral rights.

The only person that has an actual link to original TSR in any sense is Ernie, who played in his dad's game (and apparently was the inspiration for Tenser's Floating Disc).

Justin LaNasa has been playing RPGs since 1980 (in his own words), so not long enough.

Stephen Dinehart's entire experience seems to be in video games and certainly his credits are all from this century.

It's a weird one. Dinehart and LaNasa seem to be trading on Ernie's surname while Ernie trades on his dad's surname.
 
Just for clarity, no one is "in trouble" or going to get reprimanded or called out. We're just discussing policy and how to handle certain things going forward.

For the moment, we're going to close this thread until we come up with a conclusion.
 
OK, I know it's taken us longer than anticipated to deliberate on this, there was a lot that we needed to discuss and some difficult questions regarding how we interpret the No Politics rule in regards to instances of bigotry in the RPG industry, and what crosses the line between talking about issues that are RPG-focused and wider social issues. Those of you unfortunate enough to participate in the thread in Site Discussion revolving around this (now removed with extreme prejudice), also witnessed the effect of lessening the stricture against politics on the forum, something that definitely reinforced our commitment to keeping The Pub as Politics-free as possible.

As always, our primary goal is to keep the Pub a friendly and welcoming place to everyone, and a respite from the tribalism, aggression, and fanaticism that currently dominates most online discourse, both on hobby-related forums and social media at large. This requires a degree of compromise from everyone (not of your ethics but your desire to voice your opinion) especially when issues arise that are incredibly important and deeply affect people's lives. At no point does the stricture against discussions around such topics diminish their import or carry the suggestion that they shouldn't be discussed. The Pub is simply not the venue for that; it serves a different, very specific purpose that we think is equally important.

In the course of the other thread we noted a shared concern among many posters, insofar as what the No Politics rule implies. On the one hand some are concerned that the desire for inclusivity means kowtowing to the shifting Overton Window of extreme ideologies represented on social media, on the other, the concern that No Politics means enforcing the "status quo" even at the expense of historically marginalized groups. In the years since The Pub's founding I think we have done a pretty good job of walking the line between these extremes, providing a place online that is overall welcoming and friendly to people of all creeds, colours, and orientations, without following social media trends.

This is not something we want to change, and since it isn't broken, we're not looking for "fixes" that will potentially change the forum's nature.

Rather what we want to address is specific circumstances like this thread, which is indicative of rare occasions where an event within the greater RPG community crosses the line between what is relevant to the hobby and social issues we would otherwise consider the discussion of which political in nature, and how to avoid the same mis-steps.

For anyone who is worried we are planning to institute exceptions to the No Politics rule, rest assured that our intention is quite the opposite, and if anyone was hoping that we were, the trainwreck in the Site Discussion forum this week should indicate the effect it would have on the forum.

So, we are instituting a new thread tag, "HOT"

This will apply to threads such as this, like the Zaklash thread from a while back, and other instances of off-site controversy. Like the MOD+ designation, this indicates threads subject to higher than normal moderation, and carries with it some specific rules and guidelines.

  • First off, while we are not going to ignore or implicitly condone instances of racism, sexism, anti-LGBQ+ sentiments, or any other form of bigotry, we are going to insist that people avoid editorializing . A person's words, unfortunate and ignorant as they may be, can stand on their own, and posters can come to obvious conclusions without the need for anyone here to offer interpretations. Condemnation is fine and expected, but these shouldn't be used as an excuse to open the door to discussions of political (or politicized) issues. As mentioned, though there are important conversations and debates that may need to take place, The Pub is not the appropriate venue.

  • Along those same lines, accusations of bigotry of any form, including calling someone a racist or homophobe, are serious charges in this day and age, carrying with them potential grave and long-term effects on a personal and professional level, and should be considered to carry the same weight as an accusation of criminal activity (with the burden of demonstration beyond a reasonable doubt). For that reason we are going to insist on the following rule of thumb: "proof not allegations". If the proof is sufficiently damning it will speak for itself, and this avoids the pitfalls of simply repeating accusations encountered online or making suppositions that invite argument or disbelief.

  • Additionally, a controversy revolving around one person in the hobby is not an open invitation or free-for-all to assume guilt by association or to extend the discussion to other targets. During the Zaklash, people took that as an opportunity to attack former associates such as Mearls, and for one poster to even introduce their own (very suspect) list of "targets", playing upon the anger and outrage of Zak's actions to try and engender aggression against others. In the course of the nuTSR controversy, the OSR in general, and Gary Gygax specifically were brought into the conversation. This "spillover" is something we want to avoid in the future. These threads should not be looked upon as an opportunity to air unrelated grievances or share dirty laundry, as this will only perpetuate and exacerbate already tense situations. It also invites more accusations without proof. Though we appreciate there is an important argument that can be made regarding the wider culture and influences that surround issues, again, The Pub is simply not the place that those debates can meaningfully or productively take place.

And just in general, we are going to be coming down harder on political linedancing. If you know something is too close to politics, or will potentially be interpreted as political, it is better to say nothing than resort to any vague allusions or make statements to the effect of "I'd like to talk about THIS, but it would be political"

Moreover, we want to remind people that if you encounter what you think is an example of politics intruding on a conversation, either blatantly or through linedancing, or an instance that seems like someone is expressing bigotry or making underhanded attacks that affect a group, please either report it or start a conversation with a Mod rather than engaging. We are always willing to listen to various points of view, and while we may not always act on or resolve situations in a way that will please everyone, it is much more productive than the alternative.

Finally, in the wake of the last few days, I would like to make a general plea for everyone to try hard to make an assumption of good faith in your fellow posters. The Pub has been a friendly place for a long time, and it's been a rare opportunity in this day and age for people of very diverse viewpoints and beliefs to engage in a way that focuses on what we have in common, rather than what divides us.
 
According to the TSR account, it's now run by a PR person called "Michael".
 
Black Leaf said:
According to the TSR account, it's now run by a PR person called "Michael".
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Uhoh, scary quotes. We’re not editorialising are we? :devil:

In other news, the TSR account also claimed Ernie is on the spectrum, make of that what you will.
 
CRKrueger said:
Uhoh, scary quotes. We’re not editorialising are we? :devil:

In other news, the TSR account also claimed Ernie is on the spectrum, make of that what you will.
Click to expand...
No, his name is in fact "Michael". :p

 
Black Leaf said:
No, his name is in fact "Michael". :p

Click to expand...

Let's hope he plans this one out better, or at all, beforehand. I think he was on the right sort of track with comments about folk for whom games were a safe space and refuge from the world, but didn't understand the full scope of circumstances under which people need and value that space.

I also hope he explicitly apologises to Benoist and announces a definite plan for getting the Tomb done and out to people. His comments made it look like he didn't actually understand how to manage a project on multiple levels, and if he or TSR3 ever plans to run a kickstarter again that he's associated with, that is a big image problem to have.
 
Ladybird said:
Let's hope he plans this one out better, or at all, beforehand. I think he was on the right sort of track with comments about folk for whom games were a safe space and refuge from the world, but didn't understand the full scope of circumstances under which people need and value that space.

I also hope he explicitly apologises to Benoist and announces a definite plan for getting the Tomb done and out to people. His comments made it look like he didn't actually understand how to manage a project on multiple levels, and if he or TSR3 ever plans to run a kickstarter again that he's associated with, that is a big image problem to have.
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Wasn’t Troll Lords helping Ben with that? I doubt Ben would want to go near TSR3 after all this.
 
Of course he has a "plan." He turned over everything to Troll Lord Games and apparently removed himself from managing the Kickstarter ages ago when Stephen Chenault approached him and offered to do so. If Ernie is still meaningfully involved with managing projects with this new venture, all I can say is caveat emptor.
 
Gringnr said:
View attachment 32445
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giphy.gif

TristramEvans said:
OK, I know it's taken us longer than anticipated to deliberate on this, there was a lot that we needed to discuss and some difficult questions regarding how we interpret the No Politics rule in regards to instances of bigotry in the RPG industry, and what crosses the line between talking about issues that are RPG-focused and wider social issues. Those of you unfortunate enough to participate in the thread in Site Discussion revolving around this (now removed with extreme prejudice), also witnessed the effect of lessening the stricture against politics on the forum, something that definitely reinforced our commitment to keeping The Pub as Politics-free as possible.

As always, our primary goal is to keep the Pub a friendly and welcoming place to everyone, and a respite from the tribalism, aggression, and fanaticism that currently dominates most online discourse, both on hobby-related forums and social media at large. This requires a degree of compromise from everyone (not of your ethics but your desire to voice your opinion) especially when issues arise that are incredibly important and deeply affect people's lives. At no point does the stricture against discussions around such topics diminish their import or carry the suggestion that they shouldn't be discussed. The Pub is simply not the venue for that; it serves a different, very specific purpose that we think is equally important.

In the course of the other thread we noted a shared concern among many posters, insofar as what the No Politics rule implies. On the one hand some are concerned that the desire for inclusivity means kowtowing to the shifting Overton Window of extreme ideologies represented on social media, on the other, the concern that No Politics means enforcing the "status quo" even at the expense of historically marginalized groups. In the years since The Pub's founding I think we have done a pretty good job of walking the line between these extremes, providing a place online that is overall welcoming and friendly to people of all creeds, colours, and orientations, without following social media trends.

This is not something we want to change, and since it isn't broken, we're not looking for "fixes" that will potentially change the forum's nature.

Rather what we want to address is specific circumstances like this thread, which is indicative of rare occasions where an event within the greater RPG community crosses the line between what is relevant to the hobby and social issues we would otherwise consider the discussion of which political in nature, and how to avoid the same mis-steps.

For anyone who is worried we are planning to institute exceptions to the No Politics rule, rest assured that our intention is quite the opposite, and if anyone was hoping that we were, the trainwreck in the Site Discussion forum this week should indicate the effect it would have on the forum.

So, we are instituting a new thread tag, "HOT"

This will apply to threads such as this, like the Zaklash thread from a while back, and other instances of off-site controversy. Like the MOD+ designation, this indicates threads subject to higher than normal moderation, and carries with it some specific rules and guidelines.

  • First off, while we are not going to ignore or implicitly condone instances of racism, sexism, anti-LGBQ+ sentiments, or any other form of bigotry, we are going to insist that people avoid editorializing . A person's words, unfortunate and ignorant as they may be, can stand on their own, and posters can come to obvious conclusions without the need for anyone here to offer interpretations. Condemnation is fine and expected, but these shouldn't be used as an excuse to open the door to discussions of political (or politicized) issues. As mentioned, though there are important conversations and debates that may need to take place, The Pub is not the appropriate venue.

  • Along those same lines, accusations of bigotry of any form, including calling someone a racist or homophobe, are serious charges in this day and age, carrying with them potential grave and long-term effects on a personal and professional level, and should be considered to carry the same weight as an accusation of criminal activity (with the burden of demonstration beyond a reasonable doubt). For that reason we are going to insist on the following rule of thumb: "proof not allegations". If the proof is sufficiently damning it will speak for itself, and this avoids the pitfalls of simply repeating accusations encountered online or making suppositions that invite argument or disbelief.

  • Additionally, a controversy revolving around one person in the hobby is not an open invitation or free-for-all to assume guilt by association or to extend the discussion to other targets. During the Zaklash, people took that as an opportunity to attack former associates such as Mearls, and for one poster to even introduce their own (very suspect) list of "targets", playing upon the anger and outrage of Zak's actions to try and engender aggression against others. In the course of the nuTSR controversy, the OSR in general, and Gary Gygax specifically were brought into the conversation. This "spillover" is something we want to avoid in the future. These threads should not be looked upon as an opportunity to air unrelated grievances or share dirty laundry, as this will only perpetuate and exacerbate already tense situations. It also invites more accusations without proof. Though we appreciate there is an important argument that can be made regarding the wider culture and influences that surround issues, again, The Pub is simply not the place that those debates can meaningfully or productively take place.

And just in general, we are going to be coming down harder on political linedancing. If you know something is too close to politics, or will potentially be interpreted as political, it is better to say nothing than resort to any vague allusions or make statements to the effect of "I'd like to talk about THIS, but it would be political"

Moreover, we want to remind people that if you encounter what you think is an example of politics intruding on a conversation, either blatantly or through linedancing, or an instance that seems like someone is expressing bigotry or making underhanded attacks that affect a group, please either report it or start a conversation with a Mod rather than engaging. We are always willing to listen to various points of view, and while we may not always act on or resolve situations in a way that will please everyone, it is much more productive than the alternative.

Finally, in the wake of the last few days, I would like to make a general plea for everyone to try hard to make an assumption of good faith in your fellow posters. The Pub has been a friendly place for a long time, and it's been a rare opportunity in this day and age for people of very diverse viewpoints and beliefs to engage in a way that focuses on what we have in common, rather than what divides us.
Click to expand...
Obviously a lot of thought went into this. No easy way out, I guess. Thank you and here’s hoping Pub-goers will keep their cool and make it all easier.
 
TristramEvans said:
OK, I know it's taken us longer than anticipated to deliberate on this, there was a lot that we needed to discuss and some difficult questions regarding how we interpret the No Politics rule in regards to instances of bigotry in the RPG industry, and what crosses the line between talking about issues that are RPG-focused and wider social issues. Those of you unfortunate enough to participate in the thread in Site Discussion revolving around this (now removed with extreme prejudice), also witnessed the effect of lessening the stricture against politics on the forum, something that definitely reinforced our commitment to keeping The Pub as Politics-free as possible.

As always, our primary goal is to keep the Pub a friendly and welcoming place to everyone, and a respite from the tribalism, aggression, and fanaticism that currently dominates most online discourse, both on hobby-related forums and social media at large. This requires a degree of compromise from everyone (not of your ethics but your desire to voice your opinion) especially when issues arise that are incredibly important and deeply affect people's lives. At no point does the stricture against discussions around such topics diminish their import or carry the suggestion that they shouldn't be discussed. The Pub is simply not the venue for that; it serves a different, very specific purpose that we think is equally important.

In the course of the other thread we noted a shared concern among many posters, insofar as what the No Politics rule implies. On the one hand some are concerned that the desire for inclusivity means kowtowing to the shifting Overton Window of extreme ideologies represented on social media, on the other, the concern that No Politics means enforcing the "status quo" even at the expense of historically marginalized groups. In the years since The Pub's founding I think we have done a pretty good job of walking the line between these extremes, providing a place online that is overall welcoming and friendly to people of all creeds, colours, and orientations, without following social media trends.

This is not something we want to change, and since it isn't broken, we're not looking for "fixes" that will potentially change the forum's nature.

Rather what we want to address is specific circumstances like this thread, which is indicative of rare occasions where an event within the greater RPG community crosses the line between what is relevant to the hobby and social issues we would otherwise consider the discussion of which political in nature, and how to avoid the same mis-steps.

For anyone who is worried we are planning to institute exceptions to the No Politics rule, rest assured that our intention is quite the opposite, and if anyone was hoping that we were, the trainwreck in the Site Discussion forum this week should indicate the effect it would have on the forum.

So, we are instituting a new thread tag, "HOT"

This will apply to threads such as this, like the Zaklash thread from a while back, and other instances of off-site controversy. Like the MOD+ designation, this indicates threads subject to higher than normal moderation, and carries with it some specific rules and guidelines.

  • First off, while we are not going to ignore or implicitly condone instances of racism, sexism, anti-LGBQ+ sentiments, or any other form of bigotry, we are going to insist that people avoid editorializing . A person's words, unfortunate and ignorant as they may be, can stand on their own, and posters can come to obvious conclusions without the need for anyone here to offer interpretations. Condemnation is fine and expected, but these shouldn't be used as an excuse to open the door to discussions of political (or politicized) issues. As mentioned, though there are important conversations and debates that may need to take place, The Pub is not the appropriate venue.

  • Along those same lines, accusations of bigotry of any form, including calling someone a racist or homophobe, are serious charges in this day and age, carrying with them potential grave and long-term effects on a personal and professional level, and should be considered to carry the same weight as an accusation of criminal activity (with the burden of demonstration beyond a reasonable doubt). For that reason we are going to insist on the following rule of thumb: "proof not allegations". If the proof is sufficiently damning it will speak for itself, and this avoids the pitfalls of simply repeating accusations encountered online or making suppositions that invite argument or disbelief.

  • Additionally, a controversy revolving around one person in the hobby is not an open invitation or free-for-all to assume guilt by association or to extend the discussion to other targets. During the Zaklash, people took that as an opportunity to attack former associates such as Mearls, and for one poster to even introduce their own (very suspect) list of "targets", playing upon the anger and outrage of Zak's actions to try and engender aggression against others. In the course of the nuTSR controversy, the OSR in general, and Gary Gygax specifically were brought into the conversation. This "spillover" is something we want to avoid in the future. These threads should not be looked upon as an opportunity to air unrelated grievances or share dirty laundry, as this will only perpetuate and exacerbate already tense situations. It also invites more accusations without proof. Though we appreciate there is an important argument that can be made regarding the wider culture and influences that surround issues, again, The Pub is simply not the place that those debates can meaningfully or productively take place.

And just in general, we are going to be coming down harder on political linedancing. If you know something is too close to politics, or will potentially be interpreted as political, it is better to say nothing than resort to any vague allusions or make statements to the effect of "I'd like to talk about THIS, but it would be political"

Moreover, we want to remind people that if you encounter what you think is an example of politics intruding on a conversation, either blatantly or through linedancing, or an instance that seems like someone is expressing bigotry or making underhanded attacks that affect a group, please either report it or start a conversation with a Mod rather than engaging. We are always willing to listen to various points of view, and while we may not always act on or resolve situations in a way that will please everyone, it is much more productive than the alternative.

Finally, in the wake of the last few days, I would like to make a general plea for everyone to try hard to make an assumption of good faith in your fellow posters. The Pub has been a friendly place for a long time, and it's been a rare opportunity in this day and age for people of very diverse viewpoints and beliefs to engage in a way that focuses on what we have in common, rather than what divides us.
Click to expand...

It might just be me, but the word 'Hot', in red, attached to a thread (no rhyme intended) draws attention to that thread. If I were a new visitor to The Pub, that would be the first thread I would click on.

Also, still loving this site. Even if I still can't buy a 'Pub' mug to hold my whiskey. :smile:
 
Endless Flight said:
That’s a cool name: Solarion Games.
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Yeah, the guy sells little digest sized modules with a fold out map for $5. There’s a MA one by Jim Ward, an old TS one by Merle Rasmussen and an OSR one by Michael Curtis. I think they sold out during Tenkar’s livestream, but he’ll have more made. They also sell Tales From the Fallen Empire (a Conan-type S&S DCC game) since the author of that is one of the three Solarion Partners.
 
Supervisor194 said:
It might just be me, but the word 'Hot', in red, attached to a thread (no rhyme intended) draws attention to that thread. If I were a new visitor to The Pub, that would be the first thread I would click on.

Also, still loving this site. Even if I still can't buy a 'Pub' mug to hold my whiskey. :smile:
Click to expand...

Can we at least give it a Ruby Rhod icon and go with "Hot, hot, hot!"?
 
Raleel said:
There needs to be a shorter version of controversial or contentious. I also dislike hot and the color. It makes me think hot sale or something.
Click to expand...
Boy your negative! And I agree with those who are of the opinion Hot doesn't sound quite right. And isn't mauve the intergalactic color for danger?
 
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